RealGM 2025 Greatest Peaks Project #1 — 2013 LeBron James

Special_Puppy · Post #102 » by **Special_Puppy** » Wed Jul 9, 2025 10:08 pm

Top10alltime wrote:
ReggiesKnicks wrote:
Top10alltime wrote:
GOAT level, actually.

GOAT level non-big defender, absolutely.

GOAL level compared to guys like Russell, Duncan, Garnett and Draymond? I can't get there.

I know much more than enough basketball, to know this.

You think LeBron's 2016 defense is comparable to Prime Draymond, Prime Duncan, Prime Garnett etc?

Top10alltime · Post #103 » by **Top10alltime** » Wed Jul 9, 2025 10:09 pm

Special_Puppy wrote:
Top10alltime wrote:
ReggiesKnicks wrote:
GOAT level non-big defender, absolutely.

GOAL level compared to guys like Russell, Duncan, Garnett and Draymond? I can't get there.

I know much more than enough basketball, to know this.

You think LeBron's 2016 defense is comparable to Prime Draymond, Prime Duncan, Prime Garnett etc?

No. I think he is a GOAT lvl non-big defender in 2015-16.

One_and_Done · Post #104 » by **One_and_Done** » Wed Jul 9, 2025 10:09 pm

1. Lebron (13, 12, 16, 09, 10, 18, 14, and will add more years if need be)

For me #1 is easy. It’s Lebron. Any of the years I named above stand out as superior to the best peak that any other player reached, though I’ll go with 2013 as the peak of his athletic gifts and prime abilities. Casuals will baulk at that, by noting they almost lost to the Spurs in the finals that year, but I don’t care. Rings are a team accomplishment. Lebron as an individual was the GOAT that year. 38-11-10 per 100, 565 from the field, 406 from 3pt land, but more importantly than that he was a player with just no weaknesses at all. At the peak of his powers on defense, and an unsolvable problem on offense.

When you look at Lebron’s teams in his prime, it’s obvious the impact he had. Most glaringly, the absolutely mediocre Cavs support casts he dragged to 66 and 61 wins, which then sunk into the bottom of the lottery without him. The Cavs tried the first half of the 2011 season, before they threw in the towel and started tanking, and a team that was largely the same as Lebron’s 2010 support cast was a miserable 8-32 without him. That is an insane lift. In Miami he was even better if anything, despite a co-star who honestly wasn’t a great fit with him. Lebron’s pure athleticism (speed/hops) might have been a shade better in say 09, but his improved strength, defense and 3pt shooting more than made up for that in the later years of his prime.

2. Duncan (02, then 03)

Peak Duncan was unbelievable. The GOAT on defense, and almost every play was run through him on offense. 2003 is the year that will get all the votes, because he won a title, but honestly he was a shade better in 2002. The support cast he carried to 58 wins in 2002 was even worse than the 03 support cast, and he outplayed Shaq in the 02 playoffs despite having to guard him for much of the series (D.Rob was hurt, not that he did much at this stage of his career). I’ve discussed through the top 100 project, and the RPOY project, my views on Duncan. I’d have him 2/3 all time (he’s a coin flip with Kareem), and is an easy #2 selection for me here.

3. Shaq (00)

The most unstoppable offensive player of all-time, and by far and away Shaq’s peak season. The only thing holding it back is his middling defense. I don’t think this should be a particularly controversial selection. I considered other candidates here, like Kareem, Magic, Hakeem, etc, but I feel like Shaq was just more impactful, and harder to gameplan for.

OhayoKD · Post #105 » by **OhayoKD** » Wed Jul 9, 2025 10:12 pm

Special_Puppy wrote:
Top10alltime wrote:
ReggiesKnicks wrote:
GOAT level non-big defender, absolutely.

GOAL level compared to guys like Russell, Duncan, Garnett and Draymond? I can't get there.

I know much more than enough basketball, to know this.

You think LeBron's 2016 defense is comparable to Prime Draymond, Prime Duncan, Prime Garnett etc?

Reading is hard I see

ReggiesKnicks · Post #106 » by **ReggiesKnicks** » Wed Jul 9, 2025 10:24 pm

OhayoKD wrote:
Special_Puppy wrote:
Top10alltime wrote:
I know much more than enough basketball, to know this.

You think LeBron's 2016 defense is comparable to Prime Draymond, Prime Duncan, Prime Garnett etc?

Reading is hard I see

I stand corrected

f4p · Post #107 » by **f4p** » Wed Jul 9, 2025 10:44 pm

IlikeSHAIguys wrote:
f4p wrote:
falcolombardi wrote:
This is a bit odd to me of an argument cause we know jordan mostly didnt replicate his 91 playoffs scoring in previous or later years and we know his efficiency went lower against top end defense (knicks 92, knicks 93, seattle 96, detroit 88-90)

well if we're just looking at surrounding years, Jordan's overall playoff numbers in 1991 don't look that different. his TS% was basically between 59-60% from 88-91, with the pistons not really being the pistons any more in '91. his PER from his 2nd year on was like 28-30 and then basically 32 for both 1990 and 1991. his WS48 does take a nice leap in '91 but that's arguably just because the bulls were so dominant. he still went 0.270 and 0.284 before the 2nd highest number ever at 0.333 WS48 in 1991. and BPM he was eclipsing 12 regularly and was over 13 in 1990 so the 14.6 in 1991 doesn't look that crazy. it just looks like a typical peak, the best year in a series of years. whereas for lebron, we're talking a guy at 23-24 PER for his first 3 playoffs who shoots up to 37.4. then falls back to 29 and 24 again. his WS48 is a ludicrous 0.399 but it had never been above 0.200 before that and only 0.242 the next season (and then lower in 2011). BPM, same massive outlier. now starting in 2012, lebron just started stringing together unending all-time playoff runs, but 2009 is so far away from everything before that (and far away from everybody else in history).

now to be clear, when i say lebron was on a heater, i wasn't really trying to take that into account when i said the 100 out of 100 thing. lebron shot very well. that happened. it's part of what makes it his peak level of play. i think if he faces, chicago/atlanta/orlando 100 times, he basically does the same thing over and over. my 100 out of 100 comment is more that i don't know if lebron got a different set of opponents, which i think wondering how someone would do in other circumstances is fair to consider if we're evaluating someone's actual peak play and not just who they got to face. and from that perspective, i largely think of lebron's career as pre-2012 (up to the 2011 finals) and then everything after.

early career lebron was not as comfortable with his jump shot. and arguably for good reason, because he wasn't that great at shooting. he shot 35% in the 2007 finals. he shot 35% or so in the 2008 series against the celtics and had a 2-18 game with 10 turnovers. he collapsed against the 2011 mavs defense that forced him (to an extreme degree) to be a jumpshooter. i don't think that person necessarily disappeared for 6 weeks in the 2009 playoffs. maybe he was so on that if he faced the 2011 mavs, he just breaks them in the first few games and they have to go back to a more traditional defense. but i'm not sure. maybe he just avoided some kryptonite.

whereas i don't think there was an answer for 1991 jordan to anything like that degree. he put up basically the 2nd best playoff numbers ever (to be fair, way way behind 2009 lebron) and i'm not sure any set of opponents is knocking that down much below "all-time playoff run" like say 30 PER/0.300 WS48/11 BPM. even in something like the 1993 knicks series, jordan still put up 32/6/7 with a miniscule 2.3 TO/G. and that's certainly an all-time defense. and in 1990 against the pistons he actually put up 32/7/6 on a respectable TS%.

whereas maybe lebron gets got in the wrong matchup. i also think the fact that cleveland blew a 20 point lead in game 1 against orlando and then was a lebron buzzer-beater from blowing another 20 point lead in game 2 speak to the fact that lebron just wasn't the game managing maestro he would be for most of the rest of his career. i don't think 2013 or 2016 lebron are letting those comebacks happen as easily. and not 1991 jordan.

but like i said, i'm still somewhat on the fence. 2009 lebron is the greatest floor-raising regular season ever followed by basically shattering every playoff stat record you can. like i said, in terms of the actual people he faced, including the #1 defense orlando, it's the most dominant anyone has ever been. but as many other votes in this very thread show, it's not even necessarily considered better than other lebron seasons when people pick his peak.

Okay so if I TLDR

Lebron had the best rs ever. Then Lebron played way better than anyone else ever according to all these stats you use but you're on the fence because Lebron maybe plays worse than his "wow he's so far away from everyone else" level he played at if he meets someone else?

I'm not trying to be mean but like, do you see how lame that sounds? Like come on lol.

if it's so obvious, why are the majority of the lebron votes not even taking 2009 lebron over some other year that wasn't a) the best floor raising regular season and b) the best playoff numbers ever? it seems even people picking lebron #1 trust other versions of lebron more and don't necessarily buy that 2009 lebron would necessarily pull off what 2016 lebron did in the finals or 2013 lebron did against the spurs or 2012 lebron did in the playoffs. my logic would essentially be their logic.

Special_Puppy · Post #108 » by **Special_Puppy** » Wed Jul 9, 2025 10:45 pm

Top10alltime wrote:
Special_Puppy wrote:
Top10alltime wrote:
I know much more than enough basketball, to know this.

You think LeBron's 2016 defense is comparable to Prime Draymond, Prime Duncan, Prime Garnett etc?

No. I think he is a GOAT lvl non-big defender in 2015-16.

I think GOAT level is a bit too far as guys like Kawhi was a clear rung above him defensively that year. I think 2016 LeBron is comparable to Chris Paul, Kyle Lowry, and Paul George in terms of defensive impact that year (which is very good to be clear but not quite GOAT level)

lessthanjake · Post #109 » by **lessthanjake** » Wed Jul 9, 2025 10:46 pm

Don’t have much time to do as comprehensive a write-up as I’d like. Others have covered Jordan’s box data and other stuff, so I’ll just say some extra stuff I have time for:

Jordan - The Best Offensive Engine

Jordan was a notably better offensive engine than any GOAT candidate. We have data from Djoker’s Offensive GOAT thread, which looks at rORTGs and indicates Jordan’s playoff offenses were more impressive with him on the court than other players’ offenses were, except perhaps Steve Nash. This includes LeBron, whose offenses were simply not as good with him on the court as Jordan’s, despite the fact that LeBron’s teams experimented a lot more with offense-slanted, small-ball lineups than Jordan’s teams did. Jordan’s uniquely great volume scoring, unreal turnover economy, and unique brand of playmaking (utilizing passes off the jump far better than any player in history) is simply the best offensive combination of any GOAT peak candidate.

And for those who might say that Jordan’s superior playoff rORTGs were a result of his team being better (despite really not having offensively-slanted lineups), one should look at the Bulls playoff rORTGs with Jordan off the court, particularly in the years Jordan was peaking. It was absolutely awful. You could also just watch full games of the Bulls in that timeframe, and see that they were hopeless with Jordan off, including with Pippen on the court.

Spoiler:

For purposes of peak years, we should also note that 1991 Jordan had a substantially superior on-court playoff rORTG than LeBron did in either of the two years most commonly cited as LeBron’s peak (i.e. 2009 or 2013). We also have data from two-thirds of the 1991 regular season, and as Djoker has pointed out in his Offensive GOAT thread, Jordan’s on-court rORTG in those regular season games was a gargantuan +12.7, far higher than any season from LeBron. That is despite the fact that the sample we have is skewed towards games that the Bulls did not do well in (they only lost 1 game in the unsampled games). There is a good chance that with full data this would even be above Nash’s 2005 mark (which is the highest on record).

Putting all this together, 1991 Jordan is the only real GOAT candidate year in which the player had a +10 on-court regular season rORTG and a +10 playoff rORTG. Again, this is despite not having the same kind of offensively slanted lineups that LeBron often had.

Spoiler:

On 1991 Jordan specifically, I want to note that it seems like he is one of the only players who has gotten into what I call The +10/+10 Club. That is having a +10 regular-season on-court rORTG and a +10 playoff on-court rORTG in the same year.

Djoker’s tally of 1991 Jordan’s regular-season on-court rORTG using the Squared sample we have was +12.7, and that was for over two-thirds of the games that season. I tallied it using the Squared data I’m aware of and got something slightly lower, but still well above the +10 line. It’s not the full sample, but the Bulls did even better offensively in the unsampled games (and had tons of blowouts, so probably a lot of garbage time with bad offense in Jordan OFF minutes bringing the overall team numbers down). So it’s quite likely the full-season numbers are even higher. It’s very safe to say it would be over +10.

Here’s a list of +10/+10 years, based on the numbers in this thread and in Djoker’s Offensive Legends thread. I’ve done tallies for some players, and the numbers I’ve gotten aren’t always exactly the same as Djoker’s numbers (since we use slightly different methodology), but I’m listing Djoker’s numbers below because there’s players here I haven’t run any numbers for, and so using Djoker’s numbers makes the methodology used here consistent across all the players. FWIW, there is no instance I’ve seen in which Djoker or I would find a season in the +10/+10 club and the other wouldn’t.

Seasons with +10 RS on-court rORTG and +10 Playoff on-court rORTG

1991 Jordan (+12.7 RS; +13.3 Playoffs)
1998 Shaq (+10.4 RS; +12.3 Playoffs)
2003 Dirk (+10.1 RS; +11.1 Playoffs)
2005 Nash (+14.2 RS; +16.8 Playoffs)
2010 Nash (+10.1 RS; +15.5 Playoffs)
2017 Curry (+12.3 RS; +18.5 Playoffs)
2017 Durant (+11.4 RS; +17.6 Playoffs)

(Note: Harden was above +10 in both in 2012, but I’m not listing since he wasn’t even starter that year).

Anyways, the numbers for Dirk in 2003 and Curry & Durant in 2017 must be contextualized with the fact that these guys had another all-time offensive monster on their team with them. Nash’s numbers are incredible, but they do need to be contextualized with the fact that his teams rarely ran a traditional center, so the lineups were very offensively-slanted. Shaq’s 1998 data is great, but he missed a bunch of time in the regular season. 1991 Jordan and 2017 Steph/Durant are also the only ones who actually made the Finals in these years, which generally makes the +10 playoff number harder to get (in large part because the sample gets larger, so you’re less likely to be above +10 due to noise). Overall, considering all the context, it feels to me like 1991 Jordan is probably the most impressive one here, with 2005 Nash being the other contender.

I will note that my guess is that Magic Johnson would be in this club too if we had this data for him (and would perhaps be in the club multiple times).

I also note the obvious that the +10/+10 club involves applying a bright line at +10, so there are of course instances of players getting very close and not being included. For instance, 1996 Jordan was at +9.7 for both RS and playoffs (and my tallying has it at +9.9 in the playoffs). Very close, but not quite enough to join the club.

Of course, the +10/+10 Club involves applying a bright line at +10, but I think it’s important and telling because we always have to contend with the fact that (1) playoffs matter the most, but (2) playoff sample sizes are really small. Producing such great offense across both RS and playoffs therefore validates both numbers, by showing both resilience in the playoffs and that the playoff data wasn’t low-sample-size theater.
___________

Peak Jordan Impact Data

More generally, we do not have full RAPM data from Jordan’s era, but we do know a few things about Jordan in this regard:

First, not only is Jordan ahead of the pack in Squared’s 1985-1996 partial RAPM, but Jordan is way above the pack in Squared’s 1991 RAPM, despite the fact that the sample of games for the Bulls is incredibly skewed towards games that were not as good as the unsampled games. Indeed, Jordan is #1 in RAPM that year by a ton, despite the fact that the Bulls went 37-20 in the sampled games and 24-1 in the unsampled games. He’d almost certainly be an absolute mile ahead in a full sample.

Of course, single-year impact data is noisy, and single-year partial RAPM is even noisier. However we can take a look at a broader sample to try to look at more data on how a player impacted the game in his peak. In the 4-year and 5-year samples of games we have from Jordan 1988-1991 and Jordan 1988-1992—for which we have on-off data for 214 and 291 RS+Playoff games for Jordan—we see that Jordan’s on-off data towers above the peak timeframes for LeBron James:

Jordan’s On-Off Per 48 Minutes from 1988-1991 (214-game RS+Playoff sample)

- On: +7.23 (+1284 in 8528.583 minutes)
- Off: -12.65 (-478 in 1813.417 minutes)
- On-Off: +19.88

Jordan’s On-Off Per 48 Minutes from 1988-1992 (291-game RS+Playoff sample)

- On: +8.16 (+1966 in 11,566.583 minutes)
- Off: -11.38 (-594 in 2,506.417 minutes)
- On-Off: +19.54

LeBron James On-Off Per 48 Minutes from 2009-2012
- On: +10.05 (+3,004 in 14,354 minutes)
- Off: -4.47 (-378 in 4,059 minutes)
- On-Off: +14.52

LeBron James On-Off Per 48 Minutes from 2009-2013
- On: +10.17 (+3,856 in 18,191 minutes)
- Off: -3.95 (-437 in 5,312 minutes)
- On-Off: +14.12

While there’s uncertainty here because RAPM and on-off aren’t 100% aligned and Jordan’s sample isn’t the full sample, this data should leave us fairly confident that Jordan in his peak years had superior RAPM to LeBron in his peak years. That’s especially true when we know that the Bulls did quite a bit worse in the sampled games than the unsampled ones.

______________________

Other Thoughts

I also just want to flag a few things:

1. People are talking about LeBron being on a heater in the 2009 playoffs. I don’t think that that can reasonably be denied. The question is just whether that reflects his actual level that year. In a sense, the answer must be yes, because what happens is what matters and he did shoot that well in the playoffs. But I think it’s important to recognize that LeBron did not shoot nearly that well in the actual 2009 regular season. LeBron shot 38.8% from 16 ft to 3P in the 2009 regular season. This was right at his career average. He then shot 48.6% from that range in the 2009 playoffs. So it doesn’t actually require looking outside of the ostensible peak year in order to recognize that LeBron’s shooting in the playoffs was in significant part a product of noise in a small 14-game sample. If LeBron had shot that well the whole year, it’d perhaps be a different story, but LeBron simply does not have a whole year where he shot like that, and we really have no idea if that anomalous playoff shooting would’ve continued in the Finals if he’d made it. Our expectation probably should be that it’d be a reversion to the mean (particularly given LeBron’s playoff struggles against good teams in the surrounding years). That is, of course, speculative, but when someone didn’t make the Finals and you’re comparing to someone who did, then it’s also not fair to project forward the performance of the guy who didn’t make the Finals as if he did.

2. The end of the above gets to a key point IMO. This is about “greatest” peaks. Greatness involves concrete achievement. A big reason Jordan’s 1991 is greater than his 1990 is because Jordan won the title in 1991. Similarly, if we are talking about LeBron’s 2009, he did not win the title, and that is a huge negative for purposes of “greatness” IMO. This is why I think LeBron’s 2012 and 2013 (and perhaps 2016 as well) are probably “greater” than his 2009 year. The problem for LeBron is that 2009 is the closest he gets to 1991 Jordan in terms of individual performance, but it has this gaping hole in terms of “greatness.” Which leaves LeBron without a year where he optimally put it all together for greatness purposes.

3. On the question of defense, people on this sub-forum have way overcorrected in terms of talking about “rim protection.” I’ve repeatedly seen people here looking at massive defensive impact from guards and trying to non-sensically act like that impact must be a result of rim protection. Other things matter quite a lot in terms of defense. And, as I’ve explained in detail, highly disruptive guards/wings that are also good POA defenders very commonly have DRAPM amongst the top players in the league: https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=116529430#p116529430. Of course, this may not really matter much for purposes of a Jordan vs. LeBron comparison, because we know from NBArapm data that LeBron consistently had very few rim contests per 100 possessions.

4. Last year, I compiled impact and impact-correlated box numbers for Jokic and LeBron in their peak years. It used 2021-2024 timeframe for Jokic, and a 2009-2013 timeframe for LeBron (note: an extra year was used for LeBron in order to help him, because 2009-2013 was better across the data than either 2009-2012 or 2010-2013). See here: https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=112905068#p112905068. Jokic and LeBron were close, and of course these numbers would be slightly different if I took the time to add Jokic’s 2025 data to this. But, on balance, peak Jokic looked better than peak LeBron. That post defined peak more broadly than just the one-year peak being used for this “greatest peaks” project, but I find it persuasive here, especially when Jokic’s “greatest” year (2023) was also probably the year he actually performed the best in general.

________________

My Rankings

1. 1991 Michael Jordan (>1993, >1990, >1989, >1988)

2. 2023 Nikola Jokic

3. 2012 LeBron James

_____________

A Final Note About Process

I do want to just make a general note about strategic voting. I see a lot of ballboys and recently-not-ballboys voting in ways that do not include their favorite player’s top competitor in their top 3. It’s possible that’s genuine. In certain cases, it probably is! But I suspect in many cases it isn’t, especially when my understanding is that there’s a Discord trying to organize together and compile votes to ensure Jordan does not win this vote.

Even leaving aside strategic voting, it’s not clear whether the activities of that Discord are on the up-and-up, given that we affirmatively have posters scripting posts here for other people from the Discord. See, for instance, the below, that someone sent me—which is apparently a screenshot of OhayoKD on that Discord, evidently talking about “scripting” the posts of another voter here:

It’s all not a particularly big deal, since the discussion is much more important than the voting results IMO, but I think it’s worth flagging upfront.

f4p · Post #110 » by **f4p** » Wed Jul 9, 2025 10:47 pm

OhayoKD wrote:
f4p wrote:
OhayoKD wrote:If being neck and neck with Magic is amazing for you (with a good chance of falling behind), you might want to reassess where you rate Jordan as a basketball player.

(and to be clear, at this point, Magic is the only player where a comparison with Jordan means anything as it pertains to Squared's RAPM)

Depending on the day, I have magic 4th or 5th on my all time list. And given that RAPM is noisy on a good day and even noisier given that Squared isn't a robot who can track an infinite number of 80s games, if Jordan is neck and neck with magic then it would certainly place his error bars well into GOAT territory and given that the actual tracked on/off is now literally #1 in the playoffs, that seems good enough.

-> Worried about Noise
-> Uses on/off to argue Jordan has parity with a player repeatedly seeing teams improve by 30-40 wins over actual **** games

Compelling as always.

sure, RAPM and on/off should be equally noisy. but in this particular case, for RAPM we're talking a tiny sample of games tracked by Squared so we can be reasonably sure the error bars are probably fairly large and for on/off, we're talking about jordan's entire career so it's the maximum sample we can possibly have.

One_and_Done · Post #111 » by **One_and_Done** » Wed Jul 9, 2025 11:14 pm

IlikeSHAIguys wrote:1 - 2009 Lebron James
2 - 2003 Tim Duncan
3 - 1962 Bill Russell

Honest I feel like the votes putting MJ ahead are basically justifying the #1 for me. One is avoiding 1 year anything probably because 2009 has the GOAT weird stats crazy on/off and has the Cavs go from like 60 wins to 15. Two are listing stats which literally have Lebron ahead but are just ignoring that.

But whatever. Lebron's obviously on a different level on defense and in terms of passing and this Lebron has the best stats and the best impact and the only thing people really have to say is that he lost while averaging a 30 point triple double vs a great defense. Also it sort of matters he's doing it against way more talent. Feel like no one would be questioning this as #1 if the Cavs just win so I'm not going to change my mind just because Lebron's team let him down. Like pretty much everyone going for MJ loves stuff like PER or whatever but then ignores that 2009 is just waaay ahead of everyone in all those stats in the playoffs and right at the top before that.

Like you're talking about the best regular season ever. And then Lebron goes from 28 to 35 and his true-shooting actually goes up. I feel like if you're just going to add GOAT scoring to the GOAT RS that's the #1 peak

Duncan has one of the biggest carry jobs ever where he puts up great stats and impact without much help. And he's just winning 60 games with no one else really over and over. In 03 his stats go up in the playoffs to and he's beating Kobe/Shaq. You could def put other guys there but I feel like he's a good pick.

Finally there's the old guy. Like this is an all-time list so I feel like I can't just vote players I've seen. If you're going to go with an old guy you should maybe go with the one with 11 championships even some on weak teams against great opponents instead of the one with 6 rings who only really won with great teams. I'm picking 1962 because that year Russell has his best stats but I could def be wrong there.

You might want to add preferences to this.

trelos6 · Post #112 » by **trelos6** » Wed Jul 9, 2025 11:15 pm

Quick note on Bill Russell, there are a number of seasons you could pick, and I’d have no problem having him at #1, as we have limited data. But 1969 is not that season.

Celtics DRtg by year:

1962: -8.5 (T 5th all time)
1963: -8.5 (T 5th all time)
1964: -10.8 (1st all time)
1965: -9.4 (2nd all time)
1969: -6.4 (27th all time)

This year’s Thunder who in the regular season were on pace for #3 all time, ended up -7.

Only the 2004 Spurs and 2008 Celtics were ahead of the 62-63 Celtics.

Offensively, here’s his PPG and rTS% for RS

1962: 18.9, +1%
1963: 16.8, -2.8%
1964: 15, -2.4%
1965: 14.1, -0.7%
1969: 9.9, -2.4%

And for PS

1962: 22.4, +4%
1963: 20.3, +1.6%
1964: 13.1, -7.9%
1965: 16.5, +6.1%
1969: 10.8, -4.3%

So you can see he was a playoff riser most seasons. He was best offensively in 1962, best defensively in 1964, and you could even argue 1965 was the best balance between the two.

f4p · Post #113 » by **f4p** » Wed Jul 9, 2025 11:30 pm

basically a coin-toss for #1/#2 but i'm going:

Voting

1) 1991 Jordan (1990)

Regular season box score triple crown. Postseason box score triple crown. Postseason numbers only behind 2009 Lebron. Massive impact from the plus/minus data we have, massive offensive impact. Team only loses 2 games in the playoffs and he completes it all with a 31 ppg, 11 apg finals where he shoots 56% from the field. Really just a continuation of the 88-90 peak seasons but with the added benefit of a 15-2 title run. basically as perfect as a season can get.

2) 2009 Lebron (2016, 2013)

The most dominant someone has performed on a court over a season. Same triple crowns as 1991 Jordan. If he had lifted the Cavs to a 56 win season, it would be one of the great floor-raising seasons of all time. 66 wins is off of whatever chart you can construct. His 37.4 PER in the playoffs is so far in first it's unbelievable. Second place is 32.4. Which is probably two tiers lower. Same goes for WS48 (0.399 vs 0.333) and BPM (17.5 vs 14.6). So Lebron statistically performed arguably 2 tiers above any other playoff run in history. And put up 38/8/8 against the #1 defense in the league on 59 TS% and kept his team ORtg right at its regular season average.

But like many other votes in the project show, people don't necessarily have full trust in this Lebron over even other versions of Lebron. I still probably take 2009 all in for peak Lebron, just because the regular season dominance just shows that 2009 Lebron's motor was just another level above the older versions of Lebron and the regular season should mean something if we're talking about a full season peak, but I probably take 2016 Lebron if I want to win any given playoff series. If I'm risking my life on beating a +3 SRS team in the playoffs, I'm taking 2009 Lebron because he's just not letting me lose to some rando team, but if I want to beat a +10 SRS team, I'm probably taking 2016 Lebron. The fact Lebron has so many potential peaks both shows how ridiculous he is but also probably shows that he didn't ever really put the regular season dominance, postseason dominance, and dominant team championship all together in one season for that one 100 game long perfect stretch. Which I think 1991 Jordan did.

3) 2001 Shaq (2000)

Most people pick 2000 Shaq because it was a fairly flawless regular season with a statistically dominant postseason. But 2000 Shaq was a Trailblazer collapse from blowing a 3-1 lead in the WCF and had 14 points in that game 7 with 2 minutes left. I think that was still a "am I sure I can win a ring" Shaq and 2001 was just letting it all out Shaq. I know I said the regular season matters and the Lakers definitely let off the gas pedal on defense, but people tend to treat 2001 Shaq like he just slept through the regular season. He led the league in PER (30.2 vs 30.6 in 2000), led the league in BPM, and was 2nd in WS48 by 0.001 (and to Robinson so not really a person people would rank #1 that season). So as close to a triple crown as possible.

And then of course the real story. The 2001 playoffs. While the biggest delta from the 2000 Lakers is obviously Kobe having his best playoffs ever, it's still hard to not see it as Shaq's crowning achievement. Best player on the best playoff team ever seems like a big deal, especially since that team didn't have a 3rd, much less 4th star. By the box score numbers, 2000 and 2001 are close in the playoffs and thanks to weird garbage time minutes in Games 3 and 4 against the spurs, Shaq ends up with a 0 on/off, but playing 43 mpg for the most dominant playoff team ever while averaging 30/15 was just as much destruction as we've ever seen (and I don't think anyone thinks the 2001 Lakers were secretly a +11, 15-1 playoff team whether Shaq played or not as the on/off would indicate, especially since it comes in the middle of 4 years of +18.3 on/off and then 3 more years of +21.5 on/off). The most dominant playoffs ever for a team, especially if we account for Kawhi's 2017 injury juicing the Warriors numbers.

The 2001 WCF is the most dominant playoff series ever by a team. I think we determined in another thread that only 2010 Orlando vs Atlanta had a higher PSRS for a series and I think they were the only 2 to reach +30 for a series. But let's be real, slaughtering the 2010 Hawks and slaughtering the 2001 Spurs are not the same thing. Smashing a +8.6 NRtg team by +25 is just not supposed to happen. I don't think 2001 Shaq let's Portland almost win the WCF or even get to Game 7.

falcolombardi · Post #114 » by **falcolombardi** » Wed Jul 9, 2025 11:34 pm

f4p wrote:
IlikeSHAIguys wrote:
f4p wrote:
well if we're just looking at surrounding years, Jordan's overall playoff numbers in 1991 don't look that different. his TS% was basically between 59-60% from 88-91, with the pistons not really being the pistons any more in '91. his PER from his 2nd year on was like 28-30 and then basically 32 for both 1990 and 1991. his WS48 does take a nice leap in '91 but that's arguably just because the bulls were so dominant. he still went 0.270 and 0.284 before the 2nd highest number ever at 0.333 WS48 in 1991. and BPM he was eclipsing 12 regularly and was over 13 in 1990 so the 14.6 in 1991 doesn't look that crazy. it just looks like a typical peak, the best year in a series of years. whereas for lebron, we're talking a guy at 23-24 PER for his first 3 playoffs who shoots up to 37.4. then falls back to 29 and 24 again. his WS48 is a ludicrous 0.399 but it had never been above 0.200 before that and only 0.242 the next season (and then lower in 2011). BPM, same massive outlier. now starting in 2012, lebron just started stringing together unending all-time playoff runs, but 2009 is so far away from everything before that (and far away from everybody else in history).

now to be clear, when i say lebron was on a heater, i wasn't really trying to take that into account when i said the 100 out of 100 thing. lebron shot very well. that happened. it's part of what makes it his peak level of play. i think if he faces, chicago/atlanta/orlando 100 times, he basically does the same thing over and over. my 100 out of 100 comment is more that i don't know if lebron got a different set of opponents, which i think wondering how someone would do in other circumstances is fair to consider if we're evaluating someone's actual peak play and not just who they got to face. and from that perspective, i largely think of lebron's career as pre-2012 (up to the 2011 finals) and then everything after.

early career lebron was not as comfortable with his jump shot. and arguably for good reason, because he wasn't that great at shooting. he shot 35% in the 2007 finals. he shot 35% or so in the 2008 series against the celtics and had a 2-18 game with 10 turnovers. he collapsed against the 2011 mavs defense that forced him (to an extreme degree) to be a jumpshooter. i don't think that person necessarily disappeared for 6 weeks in the 2009 playoffs. maybe he was so on that if he faced the 2011 mavs, he just breaks them in the first few games and they have to go back to a more traditional defense. but i'm not sure. maybe he just avoided some kryptonite.

whereas i don't think there was an answer for 1991 jordan to anything like that degree. he put up basically the 2nd best playoff numbers ever (to be fair, way way behind 2009 lebron) and i'm not sure any set of opponents is knocking that down much below "all-time playoff run" like say 30 PER/0.300 WS48/11 BPM. even in something like the 1993 knicks series, jordan still put up 32/6/7 with a miniscule 2.3 TO/G. and that's certainly an all-time defense. and in 1990 against the pistons he actually put up 32/7/6 on a respectable TS%.

whereas maybe lebron gets got in the wrong matchup. i also think the fact that cleveland blew a 20 point lead in game 1 against orlando and then was a lebron buzzer-beater from blowing another 20 point lead in game 2 speak to the fact that lebron just wasn't the game managing maestro he would be for most of the rest of his career. i don't think 2013 or 2016 lebron are letting those comebacks happen as easily. and not 1991 jordan.

but like i said, i'm still somewhat on the fence. 2009 lebron is the greatest floor-raising regular season ever followed by basically shattering every playoff stat record you can. like i said, in terms of the actual people he faced, including the #1 defense orlando, it's the most dominant anyone has ever been. but as many other votes in this very thread show, it's not even necessarily considered better than other lebron seasons when people pick his peak.

Okay so if I TLDR

Lebron had the best rs ever. Then Lebron played way better than anyone else ever according to all these stats you use but you're on the fence because Lebron maybe plays worse than his "wow he's so far away from everyone else" level he played at if he meets someone else?

I'm not trying to be mean but like, do you see how lame that sounds? Like come on lol.

if it's so obvious, why are the majority of the lebron votes not even taking 2009 lebron over some other year that wasn't a) the best floor raising regular season and b) the best playoff numbers ever? it seems even people picking lebron #1 trust other versions of lebron more and don't necessarily buy that 2009 lebron would necessarily pull off what 2016 lebron did in the finals or 2013 lebron did against the spurs or 2012 lebron did in the playoffs. my logic would essentially be their logic.

Ehh i cannot speak for others but i would also pick 2009 lebron over jordan, and may as well pick 2009 over 2016 in a different mood too, since they are that close

2016 has the advantage that there is proof of concept that his offense could pair with other talent and build a goat tier offense run which lebron in 2009 playing in a weaker and lacking offensive (and honestly defensive too aftet ben injury) talent team couldnt prove

Is extremely likely that 2009 lebron playing with kyrie, love, jr smith and tristan would get as good or better results than 2016 lebron did, i know that they probably shot way better than the real 09 cavs did against orlando for example

But i also am wary of over indexing too much in educated guesses or speculation and i -dont- have direct proof of 2009 lebron leading a goat tier offense the way 2016 lebrond did

just like i dont have proof of jordan leading a defense half as good as the 2009 cavs (quite literally here, as the 88 dpoy bulls had a -2.5 defense vs 2009 cavs -5.5*) which i could use to put 2009 lebron over any jordan version too

Or more topical to the discussion at hand, we dont have evidence of jordan doing the very efficient scoring he did in 91 against actually great defenses either, as his efficiency fell off against high end defenses (see 88-90 pistons, 92-93 knicks, 96 seattle)

which is why i dont get why you sort of "penalize" 2009 lebron -who actually had a monster scoring series against a league best defense- for the possibility another team like 2011 would have made him struggle in 2009, but dont keep the same reasoning for the possibility that the 92 knicks, 93 knicks, 88 detroit, 89 detroit, 96 seattle would make 91 jordan suffer too

jiffzzz · Post #115 » by **jiffzzz** » Wed Jul 9, 2025 11:37 pm

Lebron - 2012
Lebron ATG playmaker even pre-prime

Spoiler:

Can score like a GOAT when he needs to

Spoiler:

2012 Lebron GOAT peak IDGAF
Jordan - 1990
GOAT scoring and great series vs DET. Much better than 1991 ECF if you know the context.
04 KG
#2 RAPM behind Lebron. ATG defense and top 5 offense.

falcolombardi · Post #116 » by **falcolombardi** » Wed Jul 9, 2025 11:39 pm

f4p wrote:basically a coin-toss for #1/#2 but i'm going:

Voting

1) 1991 Jordan (1990)

Regular season box score triple crown. Postseason box score triple crown. Postseason numbers only behind 2009 Lebron. Massive impact from the plus/minus data we have, massive offensive impact. Team only loses 2 games in the playoffs and he completes it all with a 31 ppg, 11 apg finals where he shoots 56% from the field. Really just a continuation of the 88-90 peak seasons but with the added benefit of a 15-2 title run. basically as perfect as a season can get.

2) 2009 Lebron (2016, 2013)

The most dominant someone has performed on a court over a season. Same triple crowns as 1991 Jordan. If he had lifted the Cavs to a 56 win season, it would be one of the great floor-raising seasons of all time. 66 wins is off of whatever chart you can construct. His 37.4 PER in the playoffs is so far in first it's unbelievable. Second place is 32.4. Which is probably two tiers lower. Same goes for WS48 (0.399 vs 0.333) and BPM (17.5 vs 14.6). So Lebron statistically performed arguably 2 tiers above any other playoff run in history. And put up 38/8/8 against the #1 defense in the league on 59 TS% and kept his team ORtg right at its regular season average.

But like many other votes in the project show, people don't necessarily have full trust in this Lebron over even other versions of Lebron. I still probably take 2009 all in for peak Lebron, just because the regular season dominance just shows that 2009 Lebron's motor was just another level above the older versions of Lebron and the regular season should mean something if we're talking about a full season peak, but I probably take 2016 Lebron if I want to win any given playoff series. If I'm risking my life on beating a +3 SRS team in the playoffs, I'm taking 2009 Lebron because he's just not letting me lose to some rando team, but if I want to beat a +10 SRS team, I'm probably taking 2016 Lebron. The fact Lebron has so many potential peaks both shows how ridiculous he is but also probably shows that he didn't ever really put the regular season dominance, postseason dominance, and dominant team championship all together in one season for that one 100 game long perfect stretch. Which I think 1991 Jordan did.

3) 2001 Shaq (2000)

Most people pick 2000 Shaq because it was a fairly flawless regular season with a statistically dominant postseason. But 2000 Shaq was a Trailblazer collapse from blowing a 3-1 lead in the WCF and had 14 points in that game 7 with 2 minutes left. I think that was still a "am I sure I can win a ring" Shaq and 2001 was just letting it all out Shaq. I know I said the regular season matters and the Lakers definitely let off the gas pedal on defense, but people tend to treat 2001 Shaq like he just slept through the regular season. He led the league in PER (30.2 vs 30.6 in 2000), led the league in BPM, and was 2nd in WS48 by 0.001 (and to Robinson so not really a person people would rank #1 that season). So as close to a triple crown as possible.

And then of course the real story. The 2001 playoffs. While the biggest delta from the 2000 Lakers is obviously Kobe having his best playoffs ever, it's still hard to not see it as Shaq's crowning achievement. Best player on the best playoff team ever seems like a big deal, especially since that team didn't have a 3rd, much less 4th star. By the box score numbers, 2000 and 2001 are close in the playoffs and thanks to weird garbage time minutes in Games 3 and 4 against the spurs, Shaq ends up with a 0 on/off, but playing 43 mpg for the most dominant playoff team ever while averaging 30/15 was just as much destruction as we've ever seen (and I don't think anyone thinks the 2001 Lakers were secretly a +11, 15-1 playoff team whether Shaq played or not as the on/off would indicate, especially since it comes in the middle of 4 years of +18.3 on/off and then 3 more years of +21.5 on/off). The most dominant playoffs ever for a team, especially if we account for Kawhi's 2017 injury juicing the Warriors numbers.

The 2001 WCF is the most dominant playoff series ever by a team. I think we determined in another thread that only 2010 Orlando vs Atlanta had a higher PSRS for a series and I think they were the only 2 to reach +30 for a series. But let's be real, slaughtering the 2010 Hawks and slaughtering the 2001 Spurs are not the same thing. Smashing a +8.6 NRtg team by +25 is just not supposed to happen. I don't think 2001 Shaq let's Portland almost win the WCF or even get to Game 7.

I kinda want to note here that by almost all data we have lebron beat better top end teams than jordan did with better numbers in those matchups

2016 lebron not only beat the +10 srs teams 2009 lebron didnt, he beat the +10srs teams jordan bulls either never faced or got swept by when they were starting out

McBubbles · Post #117 » by **McBubbles** » Thu Jul 10, 2025 12:20 am

Hello ya’ll. Will keep this (relatively) brief as it’s hot af and internet is difficult to come by in rural Nigeria lol.

Player #1: 2009 Lebron
In my mind without a doubt the most athletic player in NBA history, with the largest regular season carry job in NBA history, with the best scoring performance in playoff history (that’s more than 3 games) and impact stats both for total wins and for offensive / defensive impact that points at a GOAT Level season. Over the course of the season put together a GOAT level offensive season whilst also being one of few wings in NBA history that was a LEGITIMATE DPOY caliber player. No other offensive player in history is even close to being as good as defence as Lebron is in 09-12 (or 2016). Insane stamina this year as well. Averaged 38/9/8 against the #1 defence in the league in the ECF which is **** stupid.

Player #2: 1974 Kareem
At the time was the best scorer of all time whilst also being the best defensive player in the league. Very very rarely does a player have an argument to be (and not on a position relative basis) the best offensive and defensive player in the league. In the purest sense of the term is likely the best two-way player in NBA history. Was also Lebron before Lebron in that he had some awesome carry jobs where he unfortunately didn’t win but proved he had another level that even other ATG’s couldn’t reach.

Player #3: 2004 Kevin Garnett
In my opinion the 2nd most talented player in NBA history at his peak after Lebron. Could do absolutely everything at an elite level. Was so good offensively that if he was neutral on defence he’d still deserve an MVP, + he was a DPOY caliber player. Nowhere near as good as Kareem as a scorer but infinitely better ball handler and passer whilst being comparable and likely slightly better on defence (remember this is 04 not 08-13 KG defence i’m talking about so don’t get yer panties in a twist). Insane impact, insane carry job.

Honourable mention #1 is MJ. I think MJ at his best is worse on both sides of the ball than Lebron, so I don’t really see how he could be the GOAT. You could argue that he was closer to being in his offensive prime and defensive prime simultaneously than Lebron I suppose but that wouldn’t bridge the gap for moi.

Honourable mention #2 is Duncan. Copy and past the above argument except MJ is to Lebron as Duncan is to KG; I think he’s worse on both sides of the ball at his best (though the simultaneous peak argument holds more water in this case).

Honourable mention #3 is Wilt. Wilt's basketball ability exceeded his basketball IQ.which I feel led to him not knowing how to maximise his talents. I think Lebron, KG and Kareem were less reliant on coaching to make the best of their abilities even in suboptimal situations. Also, if it's actually true that Wilt was so insecure about his game that he'd go out of his way to make things more difficult to prove his finesse, or only ever pass to teammates in scoring position so he could record an assist he's one of the biggest mental midgets out of the top 10.

IlikeSHAIguys · Post #118 » by **IlikeSHAIguys** » Thu Jul 10, 2025 12:37 am

f4p wrote:
IlikeSHAIguys wrote:
f4p wrote:
well if we're just looking at surrounding years, Jordan's overall playoff numbers in 1991 don't look that different. his TS% was basically between 59-60% from 88-91, with the pistons not really being the pistons any more in '91. his PER from his 2nd year on was like 28-30 and then basically 32 for both 1990 and 1991. his WS48 does take a nice leap in '91 but that's arguably just because the bulls were so dominant. he still went 0.270 and 0.284 before the 2nd highest number ever at 0.333 WS48 in 1991. and BPM he was eclipsing 12 regularly and was over 13 in 1990 so the 14.6 in 1991 doesn't look that crazy. it just looks like a typical peak, the best year in a series of years. whereas for lebron, we're talking a guy at 23-24 PER for his first 3 playoffs who shoots up to 37.4. then falls back to 29 and 24 again. his WS48 is a ludicrous 0.399 but it had never been above 0.200 before that and only 0.242 the next season (and then lower in 2011). BPM, same massive outlier. now starting in 2012, lebron just started stringing together unending all-time playoff runs, but 2009 is so far away from everything before that (and far away from everybody else in history).

now to be clear, when i say lebron was on a heater, i wasn't really trying to take that into account when i said the 100 out of 100 thing. lebron shot very well. that happened. it's part of what makes it his peak level of play. i think if he faces, chicago/atlanta/orlando 100 times, he basically does the same thing over and over. my 100 out of 100 comment is more that i don't know if lebron got a different set of opponents, which i think wondering how someone would do in other circumstances is fair to consider if we're evaluating someone's actual peak play and not just who they got to face. and from that perspective, i largely think of lebron's career as pre-2012 (up to the 2011 finals) and then everything after.

early career lebron was not as comfortable with his jump shot. and arguably for good reason, because he wasn't that great at shooting. he shot 35% in the 2007 finals. he shot 35% or so in the 2008 series against the celtics and had a 2-18 game with 10 turnovers. he collapsed against the 2011 mavs defense that forced him (to an extreme degree) to be a jumpshooter. i don't think that person necessarily disappeared for 6 weeks in the 2009 playoffs. maybe he was so on that if he faced the 2011 mavs, he just breaks them in the first few games and they have to go back to a more traditional defense. but i'm not sure. maybe he just avoided some kryptonite.

whereas i don't think there was an answer for 1991 jordan to anything like that degree. he put up basically the 2nd best playoff numbers ever (to be fair, way way behind 2009 lebron) and i'm not sure any set of opponents is knocking that down much below "all-time playoff run" like say 30 PER/0.300 WS48/11 BPM. even in something like the 1993 knicks series, jordan still put up 32/6/7 with a miniscule 2.3 TO/G. and that's certainly an all-time defense. and in 1990 against the pistons he actually put up 32/7/6 on a respectable TS%.

whereas maybe lebron gets got in the wrong matchup. i also think the fact that cleveland blew a 20 point lead in game 1 against orlando and then was a lebron buzzer-beater from blowing another 20 point lead in game 2 speak to the fact that lebron just wasn't the game managing maestro he would be for most of the rest of his career. i don't think 2013 or 2016 lebron are letting those comebacks happen as easily. and not 1991 jordan.

but like i said, i'm still somewhat on the fence. 2009 lebron is the greatest floor-raising regular season ever followed by basically shattering every playoff stat record you can. like i said, in terms of the actual people he faced, including the #1 defense orlando, it's the most dominant anyone has ever been. but as many other votes in this very thread show, it's not even necessarily considered better than other lebron seasons when people pick his peak.

Okay so if I TLDR

Lebron had the best rs ever. Then Lebron played way better than anyone else ever according to all these stats you use but you're on the fence because Lebron maybe plays worse than his "wow he's so far away from everyone else" level he played at if he meets someone else?

I'm not trying to be mean but like, do you see how lame that sounds? Like come on lol.

if it's so obvious, why are the majority of the lebron votes not even taking 2009 lebron over some other year that wasn't a) the best floor raising regular season and b) the best playoff numbers ever? it seems even people picking lebron #1 trust other versions of lebron more and don't necessarily buy that 2009 lebron would necessarily pull off what 2016 lebron did in the finals or 2013 lebron did against the spurs or 2012 lebron did in the playoffs. my logic would essentially be their logic.

but why does it matter what other voters think?

like you literally say you think Lebron played 2 tiers better than MJ after the best RS ever. Which means even if Lebron does play worse against another defense there's like 2 tiers before he maybe plays as well as MJ. How does that add up to MJ peaking higher?

Ngl this feels really desperate

Ol Roy · Post #119 » by **Ol Roy** » Thu Jul 10, 2025 12:58 am

1. Michael Jordan: 1991 (1990)

Michael Jordan in his twenties was a very consistent player and we're splitting hairs to differentiate between his regular seasons. Being the best offensive engine in the game in addition to playing bulldog perimeter defense is a tall task, but he did it. I do believe he became more refined in the early 90s, however. Jordan gets the top spot, and this year receives top billing in particular, because he capped it off with a championship. The Bulls finished 61-21 in the regular season and went 15-2 in the playoffs against the Knicks, 76ers, Pistons, and Lakers.

2. LeBron James: 2009 (2013)

I had been of the opinion that LeBron James peaked with the Heat, particularly in 2013. But I also to factor in team quality and construction and there is no doubt he had more help (both co-stars and well-fitting role players) in Miami. With that in mind, what James was able to accomplish in 2009 on both ends of the floor (like Jordan) with his youthful, unceasing motor is most impressive to me. The Cavs went 66-16 in the regular season and swept their first two playoff opponents before losing to the Magic in the ECF. James was the best player in that series loss, but the absence of the Finals appearance puts this season behind Jordan.

3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: 1972 (1977)

As with the other two, there are a menu of Kareem (or Alcindor) seasons to choose from. In 1972, the big man averaged nearly 35 PPG, was an excellent defender, and posted a record 25.4 Win Shares. The Bucks finished 63-19 in the regular season, beat the Warriors 4-1 in the semis (the great Nate Thurmond did limit Kareem's efficiency, but he responded by upping his assists), and then lost to the West/Wilt Lakers in the WCF. However, Kareem was the best player in that series, and thanks to an injury Oscar was essentially a no-show. As with James, not reaching the Finals is a primary factor in keeping this season out of the top spot.

jalengreen · Post #120 » by **jalengreen** » Thu Jul 10, 2025 1:01 am

lessthanjake wrote:[...]

3. On the question of defense, people on this sub-forum have way overcorrected in terms of talking about “rim protection.” I’ve repeatedly seen people here looking at massive defensive impact from guards and trying to non-sensically act like that impact must be a result of rim protection. Other things matter quite a lot in terms of defense. And, as I’ve explained in detail, highly disruptive guards/wings that are also good POA defenders very commonly have DRAPM amongst the top players in the league: https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=116529430#p116529430. Of course, this may not really matter much for purposes of a Jordan vs. LeBron comparison, because we know from NBArapm data that LeBron consistently had very few rim contests per 100 possessions.

[...]

To be clear though, the impact profile for Jordan does not point to that level of defensive value within his era, no? Across 391 games played in the 1985-96 Squared2020 RAPM study, he has a DRAPM of +0.12 - pretty middling. Raw data isn't really any better; according to Djoker, Jordan's career playoff on-off rDRTG is +0.4. His 1991 playoff on-off DRTG is +3.2 (small sample here so asterisk ofc).

Or is your view that the high impact of strong POA defenders in the data ball era suggests that he'd be putting up that impact today, even if he didn't in his era?