RealGM 2025 Greatest Peaks Project #1 — 2013 LeBron James

[f4p]

I'm pretty stunned to see *multiple* people leave Jordan off their top 3.

on this board?

[One_and_Done]

I'm pretty stunned to see *multiple* people leave Jordan off their top 3.

on this board?

If Jordan played today, he wouldn't be as successful, and his narrative would be completely different. I find it more concerning that people genuinely think Jordan could be better than prime Lebron at basketball. It's not even close tbh.

[OhayoKD]

By my count, 15 people have left Jordan off their ballot so far. Three of the 15 had their account exist during the 2022 #1 vote (June 18 - 21, 2022). Those three are capfan33, McBubbles, homecourtloss.

McBubbles didn't vote in 2022 so no inconsistency there. homecourtloss did and had Jordan #3, so just slid him down one spot with the same 1 & 2 - reasonable change after three years. And then capfan33 is the one who had Jordan #1 while unranking him this year, though tbf his explanation in 2022 prefaced that his opinion on Jordan had already declined, so it would make sense if it just continued to do so.



So all in all I think the main answer is "incredibly different voting pool". I would not expect results this lopsided if you polled the same 29 voters from 2022. Which is okay ofc, I don't think the 2022 nor 2025 pools are all that representative of the broader population, nor are they attempting to be

Spoiler:

2025

emn_010 [Joined: Jun 20, 2025]: '69 Russell, '16 LeBron, '94 Hakeem

Elpolo_14 [Joined: Mar 24, 2025]: '13 LeBron, '77 Kareem, '03 Duncan

metta-tonne [Joined: Feb 04, 2025]: '09 LeBron, '16 Curry, '21 Giannis

Verticality [Joined: Feb 03, 2025]: '94 Olajuwon, '03 Duncan, '13 LeBron

Ollie Coraline [Joined: Jan 30, 2025]: '62 Russell, '71 Kareem, '13 James

ReggiesKnicks [Joined: Jan 25, 2025]: '16 LeBron, '62 Russell, '74 Kareem

Top10alltime [Joined: Jan 03, 2025]: '10 LeBron, '77 Kareem, '00 Shaq

2024

Paulluxxx9000 [Joined: Feb 21, 2024]: '62 Russell, '09 LeBron, '74 Kareem

2023

IlikeSHAIguys [Joined: Nov 26, 2023]: '09 LeBron, '03 Duncan, '62 Russell

One_and_Done [Joined: Jun 03, 2023]: '13 LeBron, '02 Duncan, '00 Shaq

2022

ShaqAttac [Joined: Oct 18, 2022]: '69 Russell, '49 Mikan, '16 LeBron

OhayoKD [Joined: Jun 22, 2022]: '64 Russell, '09 LeBron, '74 Kareem

capfan33 [Joined: May 21, 2022]: '13 LeBron, '93 Hakeem, '74 Kareem

2020

McBubbles [Joined: Jun 16, 2020]: '09 LeBron, '74 Kareem, '04 Garnett

2012

homecourtloss [Joined: Dec 28, 2012]: '16 LeBron, '77 Kareem, '03 Duncan

Fwiw, here is a recollection (based on what has been said this site and off this site) of how people who have voted in this thread have had their opinion shift on the matter (including people i think there was a shift with).

I'm not going to wade through post histories and discord comment histories to fact-check or provide proof so weigh as seriously as you want.

Shifted away from MJ

Capfan -> MJ #1 -> MJ off-ballot
Mcbubbles -> MJ ~ Lebron at #1 -> MJ off-ballot
Top10alltime -> MJ #1 -> MJ off-ballot
Busywithball -> MJ #1 -> MJ #2
Emn_4 -> MJ #2 -> MJ off-ballot
Homecourtloss -> MJ #3 -> MJ off-ballot
Oneanddone -> MJ #2 -> MJ off-ballot
Elpolo_14 -> MJ #2 -> MJ off-ballot
Ceoofkobefans -> MJ #1 -> MJ #2
Verticality -> Mj ~ Lebron at 3? -> MJ #4


Shifted towards MJ

f4p -> MJ ~ Lebron at #1 -> MJ #1


If I counted correctly the votes 25-7 for Lebron vs MJ h2h and there are 5 people who outright switched. Say it goes the other way that's 20-12 and the conversation is probably different.


New voting bloc is probably the primary factor, but the overton window has definitely shifted too. I think running it back with the 2022 voting bloc would give you a closer result.

Where did I have MJ #2?

2023 top 100. IIRC MJ was #2 for you and then you moved kareem and duncan ahead over the course of the #1 thread. You also now seem to have put shaq ahead

[One_and_Done]

Fwiw, here is a recollection (based on what has been said this site and off this site) of how people who have voted in this thread have had their opinion shift on the matter (including people i think there was a shift with).

I'm not going to wade through post histories and discord comment histories to fact-check or provide proof so weigh as seriously as you want.

Shifted away from MJ

Capfan -> MJ #1 -> MJ off-ballot
Mcbubbles -> MJ ~ Lebron at #1 -> MJ off-ballot
Top10alltime -> MJ #1 -> MJ off-ballot
Busywithball -> MJ #1 -> MJ #2
Emn_4 -> MJ #2 -> MJ off-ballot
Homecourtloss -> MJ #3 -> MJ off-ballot
Oneanddone -> MJ #2 -> MJ off-ballot
Elpolo_14 -> MJ #2 -> MJ off-ballot
Ceoofkobefans -> MJ #1 -> MJ #2
Verticality -> Mj ~ Lebron at 3? -> MJ #4


Shifted towards MJ

f4p -> MJ ~ Lebron at #1 -> MJ #1


If I counted correctly the votes 25-7 for Lebron vs MJ h2h and there are 5 people who outright switched. Say it goes the other way that's 20-12 and the conversation is probably different.


New voting bloc is probably the primary factor, but the overton window has definitely shifted too. I think running it back with the 2022 voting bloc would give you a closer result.

Where did I have MJ #2?

2023 top 100. IIRC MJ was #2 for you and then you moved kareem and duncan ahead over the course of the #1 thread. You also now seem to have put shaq ahead

That's all-time, not peak. I also was leaning Duncan & Kareem anyway, even in thread #1. I wish more people would do what I did, and confront their nostalgia with a sober eye to the facts.

viewtopic.php?t=2304930#p107353815

[OhayoKD]

I'm pretty stunned to see *multiple* people leave Jordan off their top 3.

on this board?

If Jordan played today, he wouldn't be as successful, and his narrative would be completely different. I find it more concerning that people genuinely think Jordan could be better than prime Lebron at basketball. It's not even close tbh.

I would say "you know not everyone is thinking about how people would do outside of their era". And then I remembered f4p went on a rant about how Bill Russell can't be top 5 because the 60s were weak even though he was a vastly more dominant version of Michael Jordan both individually and in teams of accomplishment.

[OhayoKD]

Where did I have MJ #2?

2023 top 100. IIRC MJ was #2 for you and then you moved kareem and duncan ahead over the course of the #1 thread. You also now seem to have put shaq ahead

That's all-time, not peak. I also was leaning Duncan & Kareem anyway, even in thread #1. I wish more people would do what I did, and confront their nostalgia with a sober eye to the facts.

Hmm fair. I guess I'll just ask you directly now then. Has your opinion on MJ's peak shifted since the 2022 peaks project and how much lower or higher are you (in terms of rank). I'll edit the original post accordingly

[One_and_Done]

2023 top 100. IIRC MJ was #2 for you and then you moved kareem and duncan ahead over the course of the #1 thread. You also now seem to have put shaq ahead

That's all-time, not peak. I also was leaning Duncan & Kareem anyway, even in thread #1. I wish more people would do what I did, and confront their nostalgia with a sober eye to the facts.

Hmm fair. I guess I'll just ask you directly now then. Has your opinion on MJ's peak shifted since the 2022 peaks project and how much lower or higher are you (in terms of rank). I'll edit the original post accordingly

I mean, I just linked my first post from that project, so you can probably infer most of your answers from that.

[OhayoKD]

That's all-time, not peak. I also was leaning Duncan & Kareem anyway, even in thread #1. I wish more people would do what I did, and confront their nostalgia with a sober eye to the facts.

Hmm fair. I guess I'll just ask you directly now then. Has your opinion on MJ's peak shifted since the 2022 peaks project and how much lower or higher are you (in terms of rank). I'll edit the original post accordingly

I mean, I just linked my first post from that project, so you can probably infer most of your answers from that.

Just going to be conservative and assume he shifted for you from 4 to 5 then.

[One_and_Done]

Hmm fair. I guess I'll just ask you directly now then. Has your opinion on MJ's peak shifted since the 2022 peaks project and how much lower or higher are you (in terms of rank). I'll edit the original post accordingly

I mean, I just linked my first post from that project, so you can probably infer most of your answers from that.

Just going to be conservative and assume he shifted for you from 4 to 5 then.

Well, no, because that's overall ranking, and this is peak. I'm not sure I've shifted much at all.

All-time maybe Jordan is a tad lower, I'd have to think about it.

[OhayoKD]

I mean, I just linked my first post from that project, so you can probably infer most of your answers from that.

Just going to be conservative and assume he shifted for you from 4 to 5 then.

Well, no, because that's overall ranking, and this is peak. I'm not sure I've shifted much at all.

All-time maybe Jordan is a tad lower, I'd have to think about it.

I have no reference for what "shifted much" means and you're telling me to derive your peak opinions from a career vote...

just deleting your name for now

[capfan33]

In my case I was going more era relative last time as well, I’ve become more focused on the absolute over the past few years. And in the absolute, it’s LeBron, and I don’t think it’s that close. And my opinion of MJ compared to others has continued to decline as well.

[70sFan]

I think people should start realising that James peaked over decade ago and the league changed significantly during that period. It's hard to call peak James a "modern era" player at this point, at least as long as people use this term in general (because I use it since the 24 clock introduction).

[ReggiesKnicks]

I think people should start realising that James peaked over decade ago and the league changed significantly during that period. It's hard to call peak James a "modern era" player at this point, at least as long as people use this term in general (because I use it since the 24 clock introduction).

LeBron is unique in that his playing career spanned the most change in NBA history.

Kareem would be 2nd, with the ABA/NBA Merger.

Chris Paul is also on the short-list, but missed the slog of the mid-2000s.

We saw LeBron James, in his prime, win a championship less than 5 years ago.

[Djoker]

I'm pretty stunned to see *multiple* people leave Jordan off their top 3.

on this board?

If Jordan played today, he wouldn't be as successful, and his narrative would be completely different. I find it more concerning that people genuinely think Jordan could be better than prime Lebron at basketball. It's not even close tbh.

Ok so you are pretty well known around here for extreme modernist views. Heck you've argued on other threads that Kawhi's peak is way better than Jordan's. I just find it interesting that with that mindset, you're not giving other modern players love. You ranked Duncan and Shaq over Jokic for instance and even included Magic/Kareem/Hakeem as honorable mentions but no modern guys.

One other poster earlier in the thread had 1. Lebron 2. Steph 3. Giannis. While I completely disagree with the criteria and the list, at least it's logically consistent as he said he strongly emphasizes the modern NBA though I suspect not as much as you. With your logic why not have Jokic #1... He's clearly the best player in the best era, his box score metrics are outright better than Lebron's and his impact metrics are at least competitive (one Engelmann's RAPM had him #1 narrowly over Lebron).

By the way the argument that the 2011 Cavs had essentially the same roster for the first half of the season is just factually incorrect. They lost not just Lebron but Shaq, Delonte and Big Z as well. Only in the 1st half of the season, Varejao missed 10 games and Mo Williams also missed 8 games and played very sparingly in another 10 or so games. I went through this in other threads and why it's a horribly dishonest argument but it keeps rearing its ugly head in this thread.

And of course Lebron's WOWY is only ever mentioned when it's favorable. All the instances where it looks mediocre are glossed over.

[falcolombardi]

I think people should start realising that James peaked over decade ago and the league changed significantly during that period. It's hard to call peak James a "modern era" player at this point, at least as long as people use this term in general (because I use it since the 24 clock introduction).

That actually makes it more impressive to me

Lebron went from being top player ar his early 20's in the near dead ball era of the mid/late 00's to being a top pmayer well into his 30's at the 3 ball/small ball era

A 35 years old lebron was the best player ps + rs in 2020 after growing up in a completely different league

[jalengreen]

I think people should start realising that James peaked over decade ago and the league changed significantly during that period. It's hard to call peak James a "modern era" player at this point, at least as long as people use this term in general (because I use it since the 24 clock introduction).

In the decade+ since then, LeBron has held up better than any player in history through the same ages. While the league underwent significant change. Pretty good indication

In 2016 he had what many would consider his peak

In 2018 he had one of the greatest playoff runs ever

In 2020 he was the best player in the world over the course of the season

And even in 2025 at age 40, he won a Player of the Month award and was named to All-NBA 2nd team

No player in NBA history has provided more evidence of their impact translating to any era

[OhayoKD]

on this board?

If Jordan played today, he wouldn't be as successful, and his narrative would be completely different. I find it more concerning that people genuinely think Jordan could be better than prime Lebron at basketball. It's not even close tbh.

Ok so you are pretty well known around here for extreme modernist views. Heck you've argued on other threads that Kawhi's peak is way better than Jordan's. I just find it interesting that with that mindset, you're not giving other modern players love. You ranked Duncan and Shaq over Jokic for instance and even included Magic/Kareem/Hakeem as honorable mentions but no modern guys.

One other poster earlier in the thread had 1. Lebron 2. Steph 3. Giannis. While I completely disagree with the criteria and the list, at least it's logically consistent as he said he strongly emphasizes the modern NBA though I suspect not as much as you. With your logic why not have Jokic #1... He's clearly the best player in the best era, his box score metrics are outright better than Lebron's and his impact metrics are at least competitive (one Engelmann's RAPM had him #1 narrowly over Lebron).

Jokic is not competitive vs Lebron unless you insist on using a much longer time frame for lebron or going away from his best performing stretches. Lebron actually dominates metrics like BPM with full seasonal adjustment:

Read on Twitter

(3 of the top 5 with 2009 as the far and away best even just off the regular season)

By the way the argument that the 2011 Cavs had essentially the same roster for the first half of the season is just factually incorrect. They lost not just Lebron but Shaq, Delonte and Big Z as well. Only in the 1st half of the season, Varejao missed 10 games and Mo Williams also missed 8 games and played very sparingly in another 10 or so games. I went through this in other threads and why it's a horribly dishonest argument but it keeps rearing its ugly head in this thread.

The 2010-2011 Cavs went 8-28 (18-win pace) with Mo-Williams. They also won 1 of 15 games between 08-10 without Lebron and went perfect without Mo-Williams in 2010 (11-0).

And of course Lebron's WOWY is only ever mentioned when it's favorable. All the instances where it looks mediocre are glossed over.

These samples are "favorable" how exactly?

Spoiler:

09 Lebron James (second pick would be 2016)

First let's take a look at Lebron in general

lebron 09-21 wowy
656-263 with lebron 0.714% win rate
37-73 without lebron 0.336% win rate
net rating with lebron +6.49 (59 win pace level)
net rating without lebron -5.50 (25 win pace level)
+8.6 ortg difference
-3.68 drtg difference
+12 total swing

Now his competition (for this thread)

jordan 88-98
bulls with MJ 490-176 (73.6% win rate)
bulls without MJ 90-64 (58.4% win rate)
net rating with MJ +7.7 (62 win pace level)
net rating without MJ +3.6 (52 win pace level)
+5.1 ortg difference
+1.1 drtg difference
+4 total swing

Fun-fact, that isn't even the most favorable sample for Lebron. Replace 2021 with 2008, that goes higher. Actually move it back to 2004, ignore him joining a 17-win team and....Lebron still ends up higher.

[Elpolo_14]

I think people should start realising that James peaked over decade ago and the league changed significantly during that period. It's hard to call peak James a "modern era" player at this point, at least as long as people use this term in general (because I use it since the 24 clock introduction).

That actually makes it more impressive to me

Lebron went from being top player ar his early 20's in the near dead ball era of the mid/late 00's to being a top pmayer well into his 30's at the 3 ball/small ball era

A 35 years old lebron was the best player ps + rs in 2020 after growing up in a completely different league

Also him being around the top 7-12 range since 2021 post injury - till this year 2025 (which the decline is starting to more and more visible)

Make me realize how good he could have been in his prime even if he Play with the same Skillsets ( as his real self in real time )and put a Hypothetical rule that he can't not adapt AT ALL ( just the year 2020 I would argue he's top 1 in the league or at least top 2 behind Giannis who was historical floor defensive motor )

Some lebron peak contention are 09 10 12 13 16 17 which would are still fair very well in our current era. Like if we take 09-10 he a Giannis(2025 who is around top 3 MAYBE A HARD 2 player depends on criteria) with Leap on offense and a bit worse on Defense. 12-13 he would be Tatum+Healthy Clippers Kawhi( who's is consensus top 5 in league )on steroids both end of the floor ( less 3pt but more rim pressure )with better playoff ability to translate. 16-17 a bigger stronger Luka ( 2024 LUKA who was a Top 2-3 player in the league )with miles better Defense role and signal.

Even if I do think the 2010 isn't a modern NBA anymore it not too far enough to be a big change IMO. ( I would say the difference in 2015-16 and 2024-25 is not as big as 2005-06 and 2015-16 )

[70sFan]

I think you mistakenly took my post as an attack on James, you don't need to defend him at all. He's not modern player, he's just GOAT-level competitor who could adjust his game multiple times. It's not the only time it happened though - Kareem is another famous example of someone dominating the successors. Russell kept doing his things in a completely different league environment.

Calling James a player from earlier era isn't an insult to him - his example just shows how dangerous it is to dismiss players from the earlier eras simply because of when they peaked.

[OhayoKD]

I think you mistakenly took my post as an attack on James.

I'm pretty sure no one took it that way and I'm puzzled what in the responses made you think your point was interpreted as an attack/insult