RealGM 2025 Greatest Peaks Project #1 — 2013 LeBron James

[OhayoKD]

Last rgm of the day. Who shall I bestow the honor...

If Jordan played today, he wouldn't be as successful, and his narrative would be completely different. I find it more concerning that people genuinely think Jordan could be better than prime Lebron at basketball. It's not even close tbh.

Ok so you are pretty well known around here for extreme modernist views. Heck you've argued on other threads that Kawhi's peak is way better than Jordan's. I just find it interesting that with that mindset, you're not giving other modern players love. You ranked Duncan and Shaq over Jokic for instance and even included Magic/Kareem/Hakeem as honorable mentions but no modern guys.

One other poster earlier in the thread had 1. Lebron 2. Steph 3. Giannis. While I completely disagree with the criteria and the list, at least it's logically consistent as he said he strongly emphasizes the modern NBA though I suspect not as much as you. With your logic why not have Jokic #1... He's clearly the best player in the best era, his box score metrics are outright better than Lebron's and his impact metrics are at least competitive (one Engelmann's RAPM had him #1 narrowly over Lebron).

By the way the argument that the 2011 Cavs had essentially the same roster for the first half of the season is just factually incorrect. They lost not just Lebron but Shaq, Delonte and Big Z as well. Only in the 1st half of the season, Varejao missed 10 games and Mo Williams also missed 8 games and played very sparingly in another 10 or so games. I went through this in other threads and why it's a horribly dishonest argument but it keeps rearing its ugly head in this thread.

And of course Lebron's WOWY is only ever mentioned when it's favorable. All the instances where it looks mediocre are glossed over.

The argument about the 2011 Cavs always goes something like this:

Person A: “The Cavs got way worse between 2010 and 2011, which is attributable to LeBron.”

Person B: “But actually the 2011 Cavs roster was extremely different from the 2010 Cavs roster and the 2011 Cavs were very unhealthy.”

Person A: “Yeah but the 2011 Cavs were very bad early in the year when the roster was relatively similar and people were healthy, and the players they lost between that time period and 2010 were all negative players.

Person B: “That time period where the roster was purportedly relatively similar was actually not a healthy time period, since probably the two best remaining players on the 2011 Cavs had come into the season with injuries. And regardless of whether you think the players the Cavs lost in the offseason were negatives, they’d played a lot in 2010 and basically weren’t replaced (despite the team having the bargaining chips to do so—including a massive trade exception, mid-level exception, etc.), so the team was obviously left with even worse players. Also, the fact that the team declined to use virtually any resources to rebuild the roster makes clear they were tanking.”

Person A: *crickets*

This looks fun.

One_and_done, I choose you!

Spoiler:

These just aren’t good arguments.

1) You continue to persist with the Danny Green point. Nobody thought Danny Green was an NBA player in 2010. His release signifies nothing. The Spurs, who picked him up, waived him too. He spent 2 years in the G-League trying to earn an NBA contract. If teams thought he was good, they could have had him at any time for a minimum contract. 30 teams were not interested. This is not a point you should be raising again, in any context.

2) You continue to make erroneous points RE: Shaq and Z-Ill, claiming both that the Cavs failed by “not replacing them with something”, and “not trading them for value”. The second statement is the more misguided, so let’s start there. This may come as a shock to you, but a Shaq who is turning 38, and a Z-Ill who is turning 35, don’t actually have any value. Part of why they have no value is that they both sucked, and were old, and would expect minutes if you signed them. Shaq had sucked the year before he got to Cleveland (he basically sabotaged the entire 2009 Suns campaign; you should know this as a Suns fan!), he sucked in Cleveland, and he sucked after he left Cleveland. Shaq was washed by that point, but even washed Shaq wasn’t going to stick around with no Lebron.

So was Z-Ill. These guys were getting minutes by necessity, because the Cavs had nothing else. Even by the end of the season though, Z-Ill was down to less than 10 mpg in the playoffs, and he was turning 35. He had no value. Which is why when he tried to play the following season he was horrible, and quickly retired. I also don’t know what ability they even had to trade Z-Ill. He followed Lebron on a minimum to try and win a ring. He had no interest in being traded, and the Heat had no cap room to trade for him either (and why would they?). The big clue that these guys had no value was that they both signed for the minimum, and immediately retired after the following season. Terrible argument. Just by removing negative impact players, you can get better.

One of the many reasons plus minus stats are bad is because when a transcendent player like Lebron is carrying a bunch of luggage around, some of those luggage guys are going to get a boosted RAPM, because of the time they spend with him on the floor, because like someone has to share the court with him. I don’t care what Z-Ill’s RAPM was. He sucked in 2010. Sucked. So did Shaq, and so did D.West. That’s why all 3 fell out of the NBA not long after. They sucked in 2010, and they sucked in 2011. This wasn’t a case of them suddenly falling off a cliff after leaving.

3) Perhaps your most off the mark argument is your “this was similar to the 99 Bulls”. That is simply untrue. The Bulls guys who left with Jordan had major value, and their departure was a deathblow to the team. One of the most obvious ways to tell it was different was how the departing players were treated. Shaq, Z-Ill, and West, were given minimum type contracts and fell out of the league right away. Nobody valued them. Scottie Pippen was offered a 5 year $67 mill contract, which in the 99 cap environment was close to a max contract. Kukoc was still 29, and when he was traded a year or so later by the Bulls they got a pick that became the #7 draft pick (and Bruce Bowen). Longley was given a 5 year 30 mill contract by the Suns, which was a very big contract at the time. Again, you should know this. Even Kerr and Harper, who were older role players who took less money to ring chase, got more than the minimum that the Cavs guys got. Rodman didn’t get anything much in free agency, but that wasn’t because he had no talent anymore, it was because he was crazy and teams didn’t think they could control him (which proved correct).

4) Why did Mo’s minutes drop? Well, when you’re getting blown out every game you don’t need to play as many minutes, funnily enough. Why did Jamison not start? Well, Jamison wasn’t that good to begin with. The Cavs were hoping Hickson could step up and fill the void, and at the time Cavs fans (erroneously) believed Hickson was an upcoming all-star. That was obviously ridiculous in hindsight, and to objective fans it was absurd at the time, but that was the likely thought process. Also when you’re losing so badly, you’re going to experiment with a lot of line-ups to see what works. Jamison started 38 out of 56 games in 2011, when they were trying to win. The following year in 2012, when the Cavs were definitely tanking, they didn’t bother trying to see if Jamison could give them a lift off the bench. They just started him and let him accumulate losses while he chased stats as usual. Jamison was never a particularly good player ever to be honest, he was a guy who chased stats and posted empty numbers.

5) Trade exceptions require people to want to sign with you. With Lebron leaving town, nobody was interested in that. I think you’ve completely misread the free agent dynamics that offseason. It was considered a coup that the Cavs were able to get supposedly upcoming guard Ramon Sessions. I should also note, the Cavs showed they were very willing to spend money during the rebuild. They traded for Baron, for a pick they had no idea would turn out to be #1, knowing they’d be eating his terrible contract. I don’t think there’s much evidence Gilbert was too cheap to pay for players, his track record does not support that at all, it’s just Lebron announcing he was going on 8 July blindsided them and at that point in free agency most free agents already had deals lined up (and those who didn’t weren’t keen on Cleveland).

6) Organisations tank, players rarely do. The Nets this year are one of many examples of this. I don’t doubt the Cavs guys were going out trying to win. They just couldn’t. What the owner thought or didn’t think is largely irrelevant to them. Besides, the owner made a lot of noise about winning, whether he meant it or not. The Nets on the other hand were known by all to be tanking this year, their GM adnitting it in a roundabout way, but the players have come out to try and win. I don’t think Gilbert’s inner thoughts are relevant at all. Varejao, A.Parker, Mo, etc, these guys were pros. They were going out to try and win, even if only to ensure their next contracts.

I’ll be brief:

1) You did indeed back down a little on the Danny Green point early, but you really need to stop mentioning it completely. If the Cavs made a mistake misjudging his talent, so did the other 29 teams. He was there waiting to be picked up for like 2 years after, grinding in the G-League.

2) Shaq and Z-Ill had zero value. No team was giving up anything to get them. Moreover, despite your claim that “you can always work something out”, that would in fact have been impossible for Z-Ill. The Heat used every fibre of cap space to execute the Lebron and Bosh additions, including underhanded moves like Haslem. They could only offer Z-Ill a vet minimum, they had no salary ballast to trade. That’s just a tangent though. The real issue was those guys had zero value.

3) I handwave most RAPM consistently. Shaq and Z-Ill aren’t special. There are a lot of problems with plus minus stats. But when you consider a hypothetical scenario of “1 player is carrying his whole team”, it is inescapable that some of those players would have artificially high RAPM, because somebody has to share the floor with this star and obviously that’s going to help their RAPM. Since that is the exact scenario people are advancing about Lebron for the 2010 Cavs, RAPM strikes me as particularly useless.

4) Nothing you have said above changes the fact that the 99 Bulls were a horrible analogy. They are entirely dissimilar from the 2011 Cavs, due to the loss of a bunch of good players. The Cavs only lost Lebron and a bunch of trash. FYI, Harper missed 30% of the 99 season, and Kukoc missed 12%, so it’s a problematic comparison for that minor reason also. The biggest issue was they lost Pippen, and a bunch of other good players too.

5) Mo’s minutes were down from the start… because they sucked right from the start. His minutes also dropped from only 34mpt to 30 mpg. What a radical difference. Jamison coming off the bench wasn’t just line-up experimentation, I also noted the presence of JJ Hickson, who the Cavs thought was good. But Jamison off the bench wasn’t a bad idea. He killed them as a starter. Of course, he also killed them off the bench, so it was moot either way. A team doesn’t need to wait to get in a hole to make these decisions btw, they can see in training camp and pre-season “wow, Jamison is killing us on D, maybe we should try him off the bench… nope, that wasn’t it”. Mo and Jamison had no significant health issues. That’s just a bunch of excuses. Mo’s minutes fluctuated between 28mpg and 34 mpg from November to January on a month to month basis. There was no obvious minutes limit.

6) Teams often fail to use trade exceptions on anything meaningful. Ditto exceptions. Especially when they are late to free agency and are a small market.

7) I don’t agree with your “players are infected by the organisation mindset, so if they think the owner isn’t trying their hardest to win, even if they say they are, blah blah”. There’s countless examples of that not being true. Did the Clippers throw in the towel this year after they lost PG13, and heard Kawhi wasn’t going to be healthy? Or did they think “now’s our chance to show those doubters and haters what we can do without those big names who always get the credit!” The Cavs were trying, the problem was they sucked.

It doesn't take much effort for Joker to check these things, so I'm pretty underwhelmed by their post.

What happened in 2011 is well documented. Thr Cavs owner was furious that Lebron left, and declared his team would win before Lebron could. He kept a vet roster, convinced the team would be good. He was wrong. After 40 games, with the Cavs at 8-32, the front office convinced him to give up, and started to rest guys and trade others. Mo Williams suddenly getting a bunch of DNPs after game 40 is the point at which you can identify the Cavs scrapping their attempts to win. Mo was only brought back later in the season for a game or two to prove he was still healthy, and he was traded immediately afterwards.

The Cavs vets didn't play less games because they couldn't. They played less because the Cavs pulled the rip cord halfway into the season and started resting and/or trading guys. The Cavs collapse to a sub-20 win team after Lebron left, combined with their 1-13 record in games Bron missed the previous 3 years, tells you all you need to know about how impactful Lebron was (and how weak a supporting cast he had).

With a little homecourt on the side

Spoiler:

The only ones who are clinging to things are the hagiographers who have to try to hand-wave away a 55 win season when a certain player left the team while when another player left the team it was obvious how bad that player’s roster was.

Cavs with these players:

Varejao
8-23

Mo
8-28

With both
6-21

Andy V: -9.0 ON, +.5 ON/OFF, 8-23 in games played, 19 win pace, didn't do anything

Mo Williams: -13.9 ON, -4.4 ON/OFF, 9-28, 20 win pace (Cavs were better with Mo off court)

Mo Williams + Andy V.: 27 games played, -9.5, 6-21, 18 win pace;

(here we can observe HCL... adjusting for teammates, the thing Lessthanjake apparently thinks we are terrified of doing)

And Elpolo_14 says GOODBYE!!!

Spoiler:

Great post and analysis. I also try to count his DTOs and EDTOs this game after seeing how much you got for him. And by my way of tracking like I did to every other player I do - I got MJ having 69DTOs and 34EDTOs - it really great.

The defense scheme and Pippen being out lead the defense to even load out more on MJ. He being able to capitalize on that show how good he is as an offensive engine. ( It reminded me of some Bron game against Magic who the defensive scheme were kinda similar to this MJ game or Nash against the Mavs )

I do think it not the highest DTOs/EDTOs count ever even by my own tracking but it get pretty high when he the heliocentric offense initiator. When I'm tracking any player I try to count the overall team possession when he on the floor and the Possession this specific "PLAYER" Have action on either both on/off ball. So it can help contextualize if he was the sole offensive initiator when he was on the floor or not. Ex.if a teammates bring ball up and doing Isolation without involving my "player" I would count it as total possession on court but not as possession+action. So it can help benefits more the player who isn't the sole offensive engine in his team and make the Heliocentric who get ball in every possession less impressive

Like you said this system isn't perfect but it can help to get the context of some player against situation or different coverage they faced with how they able to impact in such environment

RESUME Game 1 lebron 2009 offensively Total Possession when bron was in the floor – 75 Total Possession that Lebron have action on/offball - 64 Playmaking -DTOs - 69 -EDTOs – 35
ADAs – 19
-Double - 14 -Triple - 3 -Création - 21 ~ R’Creation ( Rim ) – 7
P’Creation ( Prerimeter ) -14
-SC ( Screen ) - 1
EPDL( Elite pass delivery ) - 12
RPDL ( Regular pass delivery ) - 18
BRDL ( Bad pass delivery ) – 1
BB ( Bring ball up ) - 16
Scoring -FGA - 30 -FGM - 20 -M ( midrange ) -11 ( 8/11 ) -P ( Post play ) – 2 ( 1/2 ) -R ( Rim : lay up / dunk ) – 11 ( 8/11 ) -T ( 3pt ) – 6 (3/6 ) -PB ( Putback ) – 0 -FTA - 9 + FTM – 6 -OCT ( Offensive Contest ) - 24 -OUCT ( Offensive Uncontested ) - 6
FD ( Foul draw by defender ) - 8
REBOUND
OREB – 3
OBX – 1
NOBX -2


That is .97 DTO pp and .46 EDTO pp.

1989 Game 6 Jordan 13 assist game

.80 DTO pp and .39 EDTO.

RESUME Game 2 MJ 1991 offensively Total Possession when MJ was in the floor – 61 Total Possession of play MJ have action both on/off ball – 58 Total Possession of play MJ didn’t affect or didn’t have the opportunity to affect – 3 Playmaking
DTOs - 41
EDTOs – 17
ADAs – 4
Double - 8
Triple - 0
Création - 14
R’Creation ( Rim ) - 8
P’Creation ( Prerimeter ) - 6
SC ( Screen ) - 0
EPDL( Elite pass delivery ) - 7
RPDL ( Regular pass delivery ) - 13
BRDL ( Bad pass delivery ) – 3
BB ( Bring ball up ) - 22

MJ only have .67 DTO PP and .28 EDTO PP. He actually bring ball up MORE than Lebron in 2009. But his playmaking still collapse.

This part doesn't really speak for itself so let me offer commentary.

1. Lessthanjake's tracking for the 89 game managed to outpace Elpollo's by roughly 30 (the biggest gap across a dozen+ or so tracked games from 5 sources before this was 10).

2. Lessthanjake blamed this on the subjectivity of the metric as opposed to acknowledging that counting defenders who are running towards other shooting threats as "single-handedly or near single-handedly taking out" doesn't really follow the spirit of "single-handedly or near single-handedly":
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=118878794#p118878794

3. Lessthanjake than asserts based on really nothing that EDTOS inflate Lebron's playmaking value because he is using the ball alot.

This was a bad move because as often happens when you just pull things out of your ass, the film suggests (so far) that's total nonsense. You see

-> It turns out even 2009 "defacto point guard" (per lessthanjake) Lebron has games where he brings the ball up less than triangle Jordan and his raw creation is multiple times higher despite registering roughly half the assists. (Elpollo decided to choose Jordan's highest assist games to give him the fairest chance)

-> Lebron is outcreating Jordan when he is playing an actual point guard with pippen down and bringing up the ball vastly more than Lebron did at basically any point of his career in games primarily remembered for big scoring outbursts, with lower assist averages...including games he is playing next to another high-volume playmaker in Dwayne Wade.

-> So far it's Jordan's raw creation that plummets playing in systems and having to share the ball while Lebron mantains his ability to output high-volume creation, even when he's largely used off-ball with an injured Boobie Gibson doing the ball-handling.

Now pair this with the Cavs benefitting from letting Lebron just do everything (especially for the undefeated 11-game stretch they posted with Mo-Williams (sideshowbob and top10):

Spoiler:

2010 Cleveland Cavaliers

Full Season

Code: Select all

Pace     ORTG     DRTG     MOV     SOS     SRS     Off     Def     Net
90.6     112.1    105.0    6.52   -0.35    6.17   +4.6    -2.2    +6.8

Pre-PG Stretch 44 Games

Code: Select all

Pace     ORTG     DRTG     MOV     SOS     SRS     Off     Def     Net
90.2     111.4    104.3    6.43   -0.20    6.64   +3.8    -3.1    +6.9

Lebron PG Stretch January 23rd - April 6th, 2010, 32 Games

Code: Select all

Pace     ORTG     DRTG     MOV     SOS     SRS     Off     Def     Net
90.7     114.8    105.1    8.84   -1.04    7.24   +7.0    -1.6    +8.6

Four Factors

Full Season

Code: Select all

              eFG%       ORB/DRB%    TOV%       FT/FGA

Offense       53.2%      25.1%       12.7%      .246
Defense       48.2%      77.2%       11.7%      .218

Pre-PG Stretch 44 Games

Code: Select all

              eFG%       ORB/DRB%    TOV%       FT/FGA

Offense       53.1%      25.3%       13.5%      .247
Defense       47.5%      77.7%       12.0%      .241

Lebron PG Stretch January 23rd - April 6th, 2010, 32 Games

Code: Select all

              eFG%       ORB/DRB%    TOV%       FT/FGA

Offense       54.3%      25.3%       11.7%      .248
Defense       48.2%      76.5%       11.1%      .193

It's still early. But a picture is starting to form from the film. One dramatically different from what posters and analysts like Djoker, Lessthanjake, and Elgee have been pushing for years to decades.

It's Jordan whose raw creation is highly dependent on what scheme he's operating in and how much he can use the ball and Jordan whose raw creation tracking inflates his actual capability,

It's Lebron demonstrating the ablity to adapt and produce at historic levels in a variety of systems. And Lebron whose raw creation tracking undersells his actual capability.


Now pair this with a comical tracked defensive disparity (both in terms of usage and efficacy with games cherrypicked favorably to bolster Jordan), and I think we have a pretty reasonable hypothesis for how one player turns 20 to 60 (30 to 60 repeatedly) while the other turns 30 to 50.

One that does not require us to pretend chicago became a 1-win team when orlando woodridge left to make his next team worse...

Lebron James is better at basketball. Crazy, I know.


Also, lol

Relatedly, I also find it curious that the people who tout that WOWY signal never seem to care about the relatively middling WOWY signals LeBron has had in his career

Are you just hoping no one actually reads what people are actually writing? Everything regarding WOWY until you brought up 2011 included Miami and LA. Some of the samples include his teenage years too. Even 2019, when Lebron's team is good and becomes bad because Lebron suffers a groin injury and is either missing or playing injured is included. Even 2021, when Lebron's team is literally the best in the league with him and then he suffers another injury which makes him and the team play bad is included.

Cherrypicking, the way the term is actually defined, more accurately describes your guy's approach: completely leaving out full regular-seasons and postseasons, pitting the longest career anyone's had vs incomplete primes, and quite literally throwing out a playoff run that is, in Jordan-supporterese "two tiers better statistically" than anything Jordan has ever done, because of a hypothetical (while disregarding a well documented injury in 2010 because it's too hypothetical).

So far, one side is looking at the totality of what's there to look at. The other is trying to create an illusion of comprehensiveness by artificially yanking out "structured" interpretations of the same data largely using processes they don't actually understand.

This is why it's 25-6 right now. This is why every voter who swung barring one shifted against the guy you're defending. Our bull meter is more sensitive than you give us credit for. You're trying to paint a fraud as a GOAT. And almost no one is buying it.

[lessthanjake]

I’ve never understood the “Jokic’s pre-prime RAPM was good so we should curve down his career RAPM numbers” argument. The fact that his RAPM numbers were really good before he was actually anywhere near his best definitely should curve up our view of what his impact was when he has been at his best. They’re not just independent data points that don’t tell us anything about each other.

Because djoker argued that having a impressive average at ages 20-30 for jokic was better than lebron having virtually the same average over more than twice longer, from ages 19-41 which makes absolutely zero sense whatsoever

The basis of that argument was on the idea that pre prime jokic seasons dragged his average down so if the argument is that lebron 19, 20, 21 age seasons were better than jokic 20, 21, 22 age seasons as to not drag him down

Supposedly notm "drag him down" that way then how much better would that reflect on lebron if 19 years old lebron was better than 20 year old jokic?

Lebron late career and early career not dragginh him is even more impressive, or jokic early career is not actually dragging down his career average compared to lebron

I get the point, but it isn’t actually the case that a higher percent of the career sample is made up of Jokic’s prime than LeBron’s prime. It’s not biased in favor of Jokic in that regard. A guy’s career halfway through his prime and another guy’s career at or near the very end are pretty comparable in terms of the proportion of the data that is their prime. The fact that Jokic’s non-prime was incredibly impactful doesn’t somehow negate that and make the measure biased in his favor. Rather, it should just give us even more confidence in how impactful a player he is.

All that said, I don’t personally love career RAPM too much, since it’s a bit too long a time horizon for RAPM. And even leaving that aside, the reality is that you can tinker with the methodology and get different people ahead. Indeed, quite pertinently, Engelmann did exactly that—having Jokic #1 in one version and then tinkering and having that no longer be the case. So I don’t think Engelmann’s career RAPM tells us anything more specific than that Jokic is in the GOAT-tier zone.

[One_and_Done]

Well, the post above from KD saved me some time RE: the 2011 Cavs.

[70sFan]

I think you mistakenly took my post as an attack on James, you don't need to defend him at all. He's not modern player, he's just GOAT-level competitor who could adjust his game multiple times. It's not the only time it happened though - Kareem is another famous example of someone dominating the successors. Russell kept doing his things in a completely different league environment.

Calling James a player from earlier era isn't an insult to him - his example just shows how dangerous it is to dismiss players from the earlier eras simply because of when they peaked.

I don't know if this respond is meant for me because I responded to falcon who responded to you. But if it meant for me I would say I never have a single second on thought/Interpretation of what your post as an attack or insult at all. In fact I do agree with your take and I understand why you said that in the first place ( I was just putting some though on why falcon would have these kind of criteria ). Peak Bron didn't play in or was near the edge of this Era. ( I don't even know if I would count 2019-2020 as Current basketball lol )

For My example was to say that I think his Skillsets was really good for current era because a panelist was basing his criteria on more recently basketball which is not something I'm fully committed to agree with because I do value relativity to your time but I can see the reasoning.

Also If my previous post is putting a bad imagine of what you said I'm really sorry

No, I didn't mean to criticise your post and you don't need to apologise for anything!

I also agree with you about 2020 being on the edge of "modern era" and being more in the time relativity spectrum.

[One_and_Done]

on this board?

If Jordan played today, he wouldn't be as successful, and his narrative would be completely different. I find it more concerning that people genuinely think Jordan could be better than prime Lebron at basketball. It's not even close tbh.

Ok so you are pretty well known around here for extreme modernist views. Heck you've argued on other threads that Kawhi's peak is way better than Jordan's. I just find it interesting that with that mindset, you're not giving other modern players love. You ranked Duncan and Shaq over Jokic for instance and even included Magic/Kareem/Hakeem as honorable mentions but no modern guys.

One other poster earlier in the thread had 1. Lebron 2. Steph 3. Giannis. While I completely disagree with the criteria and the list, at least it's logically consistent as he said he strongly emphasizes the modern NBA though I suspect not as much as you. With your logic why not have Jokic #1... He's clearly the best player in the best era, his box score metrics are outright better than Lebron's and his impact metrics are at least competitive (one Engelmann's RAPM had him #1 narrowly over Lebron).

By the way the argument that the 2011 Cavs had essentially the same roster for the first half of the season is just factually incorrect. They lost not just Lebron but Shaq, Delonte and Big Z as well. Only in the 1st half of the season, Varejao missed 10 games and Mo Williams also missed 8 games and played very sparingly in another 10 or so games. I went through this in other threads and why it's a horribly dishonest argument but it keeps rearing its ugly head in this thread.

And of course Lebron's WOWY is only ever mentioned when it's favorable. All the instances where it looks mediocre are glossed over.

So, the part about the 2011 Cavs has been answered already.

On Jokic though, I would say this. I have long been more critical of Jokic than others on these boards. You will find threads of me tamping the brakes on the Jokic parade 2 years ago, and stating that he’d frankly been very lucky with the weak draw he faced in his 2023 run. I made it clear I thought he might not get out of the 2nd round after his title, and he hasn’t now for the last 2 years.

Jokic has grown on me too, and I do rate him a little higher than I used to, but for me the flaws are there. Jokic defensive shortcomings are very exploitable, and they warp the way your team has to play in a way that is somewhat disadvantageous. Now, what Jokic is giving you on offense is so good it is worth it, but if I’m building a team I’d prefer a flawless player like peak Lebron. Defense at the 5 position is the most important thing you’re supposed to do, and Jokic inability to provide that is a big part of why his teams haven’t achieved to the level you’d expect from a supposed GOAT player.

When you look at Lebron carrying the 09 and 10 Cavs, or Duncan carrying the 02 and 03 Spurs, those guys really had very little to support them. Meanwhile Jokic has 2-3 guys who are better than the next best player on those teams, in Murray, Gordon and Porter. The times are different too, but given the quite solid support Jokic has around him I can’t say I’m very impressed with his last few seasons; 50, 57, and 53 wins, meh SRS/differential, with 2 second round exits and a title which came when injuries and hyper favourable brackets helped him. We should be seeing much more lift, especially in the RS, if Jokic is good enough to be discussed in the top 3 peaks ever. The Nuggets almost didn’t make it out of the 1st round this year, and needed a several miracles to do so. Jokic has also historically been weak to high pick and roll action (e.g. the Suns & Warriors), to the point that the Denver FO tanked a game to avoid him having to match up with prime Harden in at least one playoffs (a series I have no doubt Jokic would have been cooked in). Everyone forgets that, amid the crazy triple doubles and shuffle moves.

The modern league is the best league ever, but that does not necessarily mean that the best peak ever came from this era. I’ve said many times, there are players who can transcend their bad era. That said, prime Lebron played in what was the modern era, unless 2020 is so distinct from today. Similarly, there are guys like Duncan and peak Shaq who would kill today’s era too. Jordan would be a great player today also. I don’t think he’d be seen as the GOAT, and maybe Jokic would have a case over him today, but he could certainly play today. Some players would be better today than in their own time (e.g. Ray Allen), others would be about the same or maybe a little worse (e.g. Kobe, Reggie Miller), and some would be unplayable (e.g. Rodman, Cousy). I think peak Duncan would be even better today. Peak Shaq should also be fine, provided the team puts sensible players around him. I’ve got Jokic in the 11-13 range for all-time players, and I’m open to him being discussed soon, but there are other guys whose impact is just greater. Jokic hasn’t shown he can lift a team like those guys could. I’m not even certain I’d take peak Jokic over peak Giannis to be honest. Giannis also deserves to be discussed soon. But don’t worry, there will be modern guys I’ll be calling for shortly (e.g. Kawhi).

[Top10alltime]

It’s very obvious that the 2011 Cavs being so much worse is about *a lot* more than just LeBron leaving.

Ok. How about we check out the GOAT peak's (2009-10 Bron) signals, in that exact year, 2009-10!!

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/807803459331555363/1392961773614661863/image.png?ex=6871703e&is=68701ebe&hm=6f7b5a73c988f1da6d238d656b98548089c746af11635de090fc46ef07619d8a&

That's +11.3 NRTG with Lebron (A 70 win pace!!!! ) 1st in the league in NRTG.
Without Lebron, a -5.6 NRTG (A 28 win pace). That's a top 5 worst in the league in NRTG.

ORTG with: +7.7 rORtg (1st in league by over 3 points!!!! )
ORTG without: -8.6 rORtg (last in league by over a point!!!!)
Diff: +16.3

DRTG with: -3.6 rDRtg (8th in the league)
DRTG without: -2.6 rDRtg (11th in the league)
Diff: +1.0

Jordan 91 comparison:

https://postimg.cc/cg7VV4dX

That is a 14.4 ORTG difference for the supposed GOAT peak (not even top 4 offensive peak lmao: 05 Nash, 87 Magic, this version of Bron (not best Bron offense szn) and 16 Steph are better offensively). That's less than Lebron and Jordan's main talking point is how his scoring apparently has this huge lift. It doesn't. Jordan doesn't have that much impact

Also, I know this isn't everything (film will be provided below for you), but it's still part of the reason 09-10 Bron massively blows out Jordan.



So even with the alternative (the same year where the roster was constructed exactly the same as in 09-10), Lebron has absolutely massive signals similar to the 2010-11 Cavs.


Even by film analysis he is better:

Ignoring of course Lebron was en-route to a better year (by common box-score) next season before he injured his elbow

Nobody cares about hypotheticals.

Jordan played the 1991 postseason with knee tendinitis. "If he was healthy he would have averaged 36/10/10..."

Nah we ain't doing that. The 2010 Celtics series happened as much as you wish it hadn't.

Now, how about let's compare 2010 peak Bron to 1991 peak Jordan (using Lebron's 2nd worst series game and Jordan's 2 best ones)

Spoiler:

Lebron game 4 against Celtic 2010 both end

Watch on YouTube

;t=3534s

One of Lebron worst game in this series ( Second worst )

Playmaking
-DTOs ( Defender take out )
-EDTOs ( Extra defender taken out )
_ ADA ( Additional defender affected )
--Double
-Triple
-Création ~ R’Creation ( Rim )/ P’Creation ( Prerimeter )
-SC ( Screen assist ) ( GHOST SCREEN DO NOT COUNT )
- EPDL( Elite pass delivery ) for creation or when the defense is attach on his presence
- RPDL ( Regular pass delivery ) for creation or when the defense is attach on his presence
- BRDL ( Bad pass delivery ) for creation or when the defense is attach on his presence
- BB ( BRING Ball up )
Scoring
-FGA
-FGM
-M ( midrange )
-P ( Post play )
-R ( Rim : lay up / dunk )
-T ( 3pt )
-PB ( Putback )
-FTA + FTM
-OCT ( Offensive Contest )
-OUCT ( Offensive Uncontested )
- FD ( Foul draw by defender )

Rebound
-O-Reb ( offensive Rebound )
-*Obx ( Offensive Box Out )
-*Nobx ( Non offensive Boxout)
- D-reb ( defensive Rebound )
- Dbx ( defensive box out )
- Ndox ( non defensive box out )
- EP ( Empty Paint )
Defense
-PPs – EPP/IPP ( Paint Protection ) ( E – effective / I – Ineffective )
- PPDs – EPPD/IPPD ( Primary Perimeter defendings ) ( E – effective / I – Ineffective )
- DCT ( Defensive contest )
- NDCT ( non contest )
- HPD ( help defense ) – EHPD/IHPD ( E – effective / I – Ineffective )
- OBD ( Offball defense when the offball player is in action to make a play or in advantageous position ) – EOBD/IOBD ( E – effective / I – Ineffective )

( P - Possession. If your team get the Oreb or foul and your team get control of the ball it will be counted as same possession )
Q1 Offense
P1 = 0.15 – Bron get ball with Paul on him drive pass to shaq in post
P2 = 0.50 – Bron get ball on post with Paul face up game lebron try pump fake many time but Paul don’t bite. Shaq offensive foul
P3 = 1.28 – Bron bring ball up dribble to top key with Paul on him so he pass to Antawn at wing who drive lay up ( BB1 DTOs1 RPDL1 )
P4 = 2.19 – Lebron bring ball up get pick up by Allen then KG come double so bron bounce pass to Antawn who drive hand off to shaq for a dunk ( Double1 DTOs2-3 EDTOs1 RPDL2 R’Creation BB2)
P5 = 3.34 – Bron get bron top key from Mo then drive on allen spin move lay up ( FGA1 FGM1 R1 OCT1 )
P6 = 4.40 – bron bring ball up pass out. Mo get foul ( Heat ball ) ( BB3 )
P6 = 5.04 – Bron at corner when Mo pass to Antawn drive dunk
P7 = 6.22 – bron bring ball up Antawn come screen so bron drive so KG pick him up and Paul close on the lane. Bron pass to Anthony wide open for 3pt ( BB4 DTO4-5 EDTOs2 RPDL3 P’Creation1 )
P8 = 6.48 – Mo bring ball up pass to shaq who miss post shot. Bron at 3pt line
P9 = 7.10 – Bron bringball up fast break drive see double but rondo come steal from behide ( Double2 BB5 ) ( Cav ball )
P10 = 7.29 – Bron out bound pass to MO off screen for a long 2pt missed ( RPDL4 )
P11 = 8.45 – Mo bring ball up pass to bron on top keys. Bron pass to shaq in the post. Thrn cut to the basket with shaq bounce pass for him ( bad pass from shaq ) get intercepted
P12 = 9.12 – Lebron at 3pt line when Mo bring ball up and pass to Antawn for a miss shot
P13 = 9.40 – lebron stay at the wing when MO bring ball up and play PNR with shaq. Mo drive jump shot get block
P14 = 10.50 – West bring ball up so bron ghost screen then pop to the top keys. Defensive 3sec foul ( FTA1 FTM1 ) ( Cav ball )
P14 = 11.35 – Lebron get ball at wing then Antawn come screen for him. Lebron dribble pass KG who try to edge off screen and jump shot at top key missed ( FGA2 T1 OUCT1 )
P15 = 12.40- lebron cut backdoor to the post get ball and get foul suddenly ( FD1 ) ( Cav ball )
P15 = 13.20 – Bron have the ball on wing with tony allen on him and rondo on the side who is there to prevent a drive. Bron pass to open west but KG pick him up. West pass to Shaq for a foul ( DTOs6-7 EDTOs3 RPDL5 )
P16 = 14.40 – Lebron bringball up Antawn screen so the lebron try to drive with KG close out and Ray allen who close out in the lane. Pass ro Anthony at 3pt line but Ray allen able to close out but Anthony drive fake and hit a long 2pt ( BB6 DTOs8-9 EDTOs4 ADAs1 RPDL6 )
P17 = 15.20 – Lebron at 3pt line when shaq post up and get foul in paint
P18 = 17.48 – Lebron get ball on top key with Tony pick him up. Shaq come screen PNR and lebron drive get double kick to Anthony. Anthony drive with ray try to cover Vare come screen. Anthony floater on KG. Vare get Oreb pass to West for a MISSED 3pt ( DTOs10-11 EDTOs5 ADAs2 RPDL7 )
P19 = 18.25 – Lebron get ball on logo then Vare come screen PNR. Lebron drive get triple team but bad pass to Anthony at 3pt line get hit out bound ( Triple1 DTOs12-13-14 EDTOs6-7 BPDL1 ) ( Cav ball )
P19 = 19.05 get ball on wing and shoot a 3pt cause of shot clock missed ( FGA3 T2 OCT2 )
P20 = 19.47 – Lebron cut backdoor to post get ball with tony on him. Lebron drive but get trip so Foul ( FD2 FTA2-3 FTM2-3 )
P21 = 22.08 – Lebgron get ball at 3pt line drive on tony allen bad pass to Vare in paint TOV ( BPDL2 )
P22 = 23.00 – Bron bring ball up drive pull up jump shot at the wing ( BB7 FGA4 FGM2 M1 OCT3 )
P23 = 23.24 – west bring ball up drive kick to to Hickson who missed
P24 = 25.28 – west bring ball up so bron screen switch. West bad pass to bron but bron still able to get it drive get double for a foul in paint ( FD3 FTA4-5 FTM4 Double3 )
P25 = 26.42 – lebron bring ball up with rondo on him. He dribble around abit to waste the final shot clock. Powe come screen so bron fake drive see 3 defender on his path to the paint so kick to west at 3pt line who fake then drive get block ( DTOs15-16-17 EDTOs8-9 ADAs3 EPDL1 P’Creation2 ) ( Cav ball )
P25 = 27.16 – West get ball and give to bron with 2 sec left. Bron fake drive pull up long 2pt on tony missed ( FGA5 M2 OCT4 )
Q2 Offense
P26 = 37.47 – Lebron get ball near logo drive on allen with shaq screen but Perkin edge so bron pass to Antawn at 3pt linr who drive pass to west punp fake pass back to Antawn who missed ( DTOs18 ADAs4 RPDL8 )
P27 = 38.04 – lebron bring ball up with Paul close him up and rondo catching to help so bron pass to open Anthony who pass to Antawn get block ( BB8 DTOs19-20-21 EDTOs10-11 P’Creation3 EPDL2 )
P28 = 38.50 – Lebron waiting at 3pt line when west ISO ball get block
P29 = 40.10 – Lebron get ball at 3pt line pass to shaq then cut to basket. Shaq make shot of postup
P30 = 40.50 – Bron bring ball up post up rondo to paint attempt lay get block by perkins retake the Oreb but got foul ( BB9 FGA6 P1 OCT5 FD4 Oreb1 OBx1 ) ( cav ball )
P30 = 41.40 – Lebron drive get triple make a bouce pass to Anthony. Anthony can’t handle the ball and TOV ( triple2 DTOs22-23-24 EDTO12-13 RPDL9 )
P31 = 43.01 – Lebron running around paint offball then go out for ball at logo but get foul by allen ( FD5 FTA6-7 FTM5 )
P32 = 45.10 – lebron get ball corner drive on allen but perkin come double and KG on lane so Bron jump pass to antwan in paint for layup ( Double4 DTOs25-26-27 EDTOs14-15 R’Creation1 ADAs5 EPDL3 )
P33 = 45.34 – Lebron get ball then Antawn come screen allen so bron blow by KG and get double in paint but layup and ONE ( Double5 FGA7 R2 Oct6 FD6 FTA8 FTM6 )
P34 = 46.50 – bron bring ball up pass to mo at half court. Mo drive with bron cutting to basket but Mo get foul ( BB10 )
P35 = 47.51 – Lebron bring ball up fast break see 2 defender on his lane so kick to Anthony but bad pass TOV ( Could be Creation but bad pass ) ( BB11 DTOs28-29 EDTOs16 BPDL3 )
P36 = 48.38 – Bron get ball then play PNR with shaq. Lebron get double so bounce pass to shaq but KG rotate to meet shaq at rim. Shaq get foul ( Double6 Dto30-31 EDTOs17 RPDL10 )
P37 = 49.50 – Lebron go the post when Antawn get ball at rim for a layup from MO
P38 = 50.12 – Bron bring ball up passs to antawn at top keys. Then go offball post up on rondo at ft line but didn’t get the pass ( BB12 )
P39 = 52.00 – Lebron get ball top keys take ball off to logo then drive jump shot but ball get poke out his hand TOV ( FGA8 M2 OCT7 )
P40 = 52.30 – bron bring ball up drive in trasnsition get foul by allen ( FD7 FTA9-10 FTM7 )
P41 = 54.22 – Anthony pump fake and miss a 3pt when bron was at FT line
Q3 offense
P42 = 55.30 – Lebron get ball on the wing with Ray on him so Antawn come to screen but KG edge even before the screen is set. Lebron dribble by and KG + allen trip on each other so bron drive bounce pass to Antawn rolling for open dunk ( DTOs32-33-34-35 EDTOs18-19-20 EPDL3 R’Creation2 )
P43 = 55.52 – Mo bring ball up so Bron screen on rondo ( SC2 )
P44 = 57.40 – Bron get ball at half court with paul on him then KG switch on bron. Pass to Antawn at corner who drive get foul ( cav ball )
P44 = 58.10 – entry pass to shaq and get ball back. KG and Paul try to come on him and shaq roll to basket. Bron fake pass to shaq and pass to Antawn for open dunk ( DTO36-37 EDTOs21 ADAs6 R’Creation3 EPDL4 )
P45 = 58.42 – lebron bring ball up in transition and pass to Antawn when the defense didn’t set yet. Antawn drive hand off to shaq for a dunk ( BB13 DTO38-39 EDTOs22 P’Creation4 RPDL11 )
P46 = 59.25 – Mo bring ball up get kick ball ( CAV ball )
P46 = 59.47 – Bron get ball at top keys then drive layup on PP ( FGA9 FGM3 R3 OCT8 )
P47 = 101.13 – Bron get ball at 3ptline drive gte double then pass to shaq at rim who got foul ( DTOs40-41 EDTO23 RPDL12 R’Creation4 double7 )
P48 = 102.40 – Parker hit 3pt while bron at the wing
P40 = 103.00 – Mo bring ball Up so bron cut to basket . Mo drive hand off to shaq for a dunk
P50 = 103.38 -Mo bring ball Up get kick ball ( CAV BALL )
P50 = 104.00 – Bron get ball in corner but missed 3pt ( FGA10 T3 OCT9 )
P51 = 104.25 – Parker fastbreak pass to shaq at paint for easy layup
P52 = 105.14 – Brom at to the paint when Antawn get pass deflected out
P53 = 106.02 – Lebron go in paint but parker pass for bron get intercepted mid way
P54 = 107.42 – Bron bring ball Up drive get double but shot an toght fall away ( BB13 Double8 FGA11 FGM4 M3 OCT10 )
P55 = 108.54 – Mo bring ball Up dribble top key then made a 3pt
P56 = 111.03 -Bron bring ball Up drive get double and the ball got stole ( BB15 Double9 )
P57 = 112.20 – Lebron PNR with vare. Bron drive get double with another player attemptinga steal them bron bounce pass to vare for a layup ( DTOs42-43-44 EDTOs24-25 EPDL5 Double10 R’Creation5 )
P58 = 112.54 – bron bring ball Up then Antwan come screen. Lebron drive get 3 defender around him so pass yo MO for a 3pt ( BB16 DTOs 45-46-47 EDTOs26-27 ADAs7 P’Creation5 EPDL6 )
P59 = 114.06 – Bron get ball top key Vare come screen so bron drive get double pass to west who fake 3pt then get foul ( DTOs48-49-50 EDTO28-29 ADAs8 RPDL13 P’Creation6 )
P60 = 117.20 – Lebron get ball drive see double team coming so pass but get intercepted ( BPDL4 )
P61 = 117.35 – bron bring ball Up PNR with Vare bring 4 defender in Paint then pass to Mo who missed 3pt ( BB17 DTOs51-52-53-54 EDTOs30-31-32 EPDL6 P’Creation7 )
Q4 Offense
P62 = 119.27 – Parker TOV
P63 120.00 – Bron pump fake 2 time then shoot 3pt missed ( FGA12 T4 OUCT1 )
P64 = 121.25 – Bron bring ball up get double pass to parker. Get ball back drive pass to Hickson get ball back dribble out see double te4am coming pass to west who pass to parker missed 3pt ( DTOs55-56 EDTO33 RPDL14 Double11 / DTOs57-58-59 EDTO34-35 RPDL15 / DTOs60-61 EDTO36 RPDL16 P’creation8 ADAs9 )
P65 = 122.10 – Bron get ball at 3pt line see soft double so pass inside for Hictson. Loses ball TOV
P66 = 123.12 – Lebron bring ball Up get pick up half court by Rondo. Drive thru rondo but miss layup ( BB18 FGA13 R4 OCT11 )
P67 = 123.48 – Bron moving around backline when west drive layup got block
P68 = 124.50 – Lebron PNR with Vare. Bron see double coming bounce pass to vare who did get ball in time TOV ( DTOs62-63 EDTos37 BPDL5 )
P69 = 125.20 – Bron at 3pt line when Mo drive TOV
P70 = 126.00 – Amtawn miss wild open 3pt when bron at the wing
P71 = 127.05 – Bron bring ball Up PNR with Vare see lane block so give to mo who drive made shot ( BB19 )
P72 = 127.45 – Bron bring ball Up Antawn come screen lebron fake shoot then pass to open Antawn who drive pass to vare for a layup ( BB19 DTOs64-65 ADAs10-11 RPDL17 P’Creation9 )
P73 = 128.11 – bron bring ball Up fast break dunk ( BB20 FGA14 FGM5 R5 OUCT2 )
P74 = 129-56 – Bron post up at elbow get ball then pull back to top keys drtive on KG get double in Paint for a layup and ONE ( FGA15 FGM6 R6 OCT13 Double12 FD8 FTA11 FTM8 )
P75 = 131.15 – Bron cut backdoor to get pass at corner drive get double then pass to Antawn ar corner who drive pass to jame miss layup ( DTOs66-67 EDTOs38 P’Creation10 RPDL18 / FGA16 R7 OUCT3 )
P76 = 132.24 - – Bron cut backdoor to get pass at wing get sofr double see Vare cutting so pass to Vare for a layup and ONE ( DTOs68-69 EDTOs39 R’Creation6 RPDL19 )
P77 = 133.51 – Mo get foul by KG ( Cav ball )
P77 = 134.20 – Antawn miss layup while bron at corner
P78 = 135.00 – Lebron get ball at ft line then KG switch on him lebron pull back fake drive pass to vare miss open long 2pt ( DTOs70 RPDL20 )
P79 = 137.54 – Bron get ball PNR with MO get pick on by KG. pass back to Mo who drive pass to Antawn who loses ball
P80 = 139.41 – Bron get inbound pass drive but miss layup ( FGA17 R8 OCT14 )
P81 = 141.10 – Parker bring ball up then miss a pull up 3pt
P82 = 141.50 – Bron bring ball up then pull 3pt miss ( BB21 FGA18 T5 OCT 15 )
P83 = 142.20 – MO drive in fastbreak get foul
P84 = 145.00 – bron bring ball up but get double full court pass to mo who got foul by KG
P85 147.12 – Mo get inbound pass drive miss layup
END

Q1 Defense
P1 = 0.36 – Bron guardeing Paul on top key then KG come screen lebron cannot get pass the screen so shaq switch to Paul pull up jump shot ( PPDs1 )
P2 = 1.20 – Lebron on the elbow off ball and Paul is on 3pt line
P3 = 2.10 – ray allen post mo William lebron try to come help but too late
P4 = 3.10 – Rondo bring ball up hand off to Paul so lebron try to close out but get blow by. Paul drive but charge foul on Anthony ( PPD2 IPPD1 )
P5 = 4.30 – Bron guard Paul offball when ray hit a 3pt
P6 = 5.20 – Bron at elbow with Paul offball but CAV 3SEC foul ( Celtic ball )
P7 = 6.10 – ray allen get ball dribble to FT line bron come help so ray pass out to rondo who drive layup on contest ( HPD1 )
P8 = 6.40 – lebron switch on KG offball at elbow when rondo drive split layup on shaq + Anthony

P9 = 6.53 – Paul get ball in transition try to drive but bron pick him up. Paul backdown pass to KG in post ( PPD3 EPPD1 )
P10 = 7.40 – Lebron at the elbow with Paul then switch on rondo off ball. KG drive get foul on Antawn
P11 = 8.54 – Rondo bring ball up from transition. Lebron come from behide to to snatch the ball out and Cav ball ( PPD4 EPPD2 )
P12 = 9.20 – Lebron comeback defense in the paint roaming. Then try to close out on ray allen who got the ball at 3pt line. Allen blow by with bron on his side and meet shaq in paint for a floater ( PPD5 IPPD2 DUCT1 )
P13 = 9.49 – Rondo take ball fast break attempt drive on Anthony lebron who was on Perkins come help close the lane, Rondo kick to allen at 3pt line Missed 3pt. Paul Oreb get foul ( HPD2 EHPD1 )
P14 = 11.45 – Lebron set on elbow guard Paul offball. Rondo drive split defense for floater missed. Perkin foul offball
P15 = 14.23 – Lebron on tony allen. Rondo pass to tony but he pass back. Rondo lob to KG who cut backdoor on shaq
P16 = 15.04 – Lebron on post off ball guarding tony allen. When rondo hit a open jumper with KG Screening
P17 = 16.10 – Tony bring ball up so lebron is on him and force him to pass. Lebron follow tony to short corner but Rasheed come screen so tony cut back door for the ball in paint. Lebron get out screen and catch up in time. Tony pass back. Rondo dribble around abd miss his shot. Lebron boxout with tony in paint. Long rebound that Antawn loses it and end in tony hand. Who drive on Antawn for a foul ( PPD6 PP1 DBX1 )
P18 = 18.04 – Rondo bring ball up fast break lebron meet him at the paint and contest the shot make him miss. But KG steal Rebound from Vare for a lay up ( PP2 EPP1 DCT1 )
P19 = 19.10 – Rondo fast break drive on Anthony. Bron was tony coming back in transition
P20 = 21.00 _ lebron on elbow with tony when ray drive ge ball hit out hand by Vare ( Celtic ball )
P20 = 21.50 – Tony allen get ball top keys so lebron close out and contest shot ( PPD7 EPDD2 DCT2 )
P21 = 22.45 – Cav foul on rondo at Celtic court
P22 = 23.06 – Ray initiating fastbreak and drive but BAD defensive communication by the cav so lebron who was on Tony try to help but too late
P23 = 24.00 – lebron guard tony at FT line when Hickson foul Rasheed
P24 = 26.35 – Rondo pull up jump shot on west. When bron was on ft line with tony
P25 = 27.25 – Rondo get ball for yhe last shot but didn’t shoot in time
Q2 defense
38.00 – rondo get an outlet pass at rim attempt layup. Lebron follow try to catch up but too late. Rondo missed. Lebron get rebound ( Dreb1 Ndbx1 )
38.10 – Rondo get ball for the fast break lebron attempt steal at celtic half but fail. Rondo pass to KG to allen for 3pt ( PPD8 IPPD3 )
39.00 – rondo take ball up fast break. Lebron try to take a charge but get call BLOCKING FOUL at the rim ( PP3 IPP1 )
40.40 - Lebron follow Paul around off ball when ray miss a 3pt
42.08 – Rondo bring ball up in trasnsition nearly blow by Anthony so lebron come help but shaq foul rondo on weak side ( HPD3 )
44.10 – Lebron off ball on paul when Anthony foul rondo on drive
45.20 – Lebron recovery defense in transition but KG get an outlet pass at paint and Antawn is too slow to catch up so KG layup
46.38 – Lebron follow Paul offball then switch on rondo cause Paul screen Anthony. Rondo is force to pass to Paul who pump fake and miss a contested 2pt. lebron get Dreb ( PPD9 Dreb2 EP1 Ndbx2 )
47.46 – Lebron offball on paul then allen drive so bron attempt help but allen get ball stole before lebron come
48.20 – Lebron guard Paul at corner then come roam at post but rondo beat Anthony off dribble for a layup
49.30 – Lebron follow Paul around offball. Rondo BULLY Anthony off dribble and find KG for a long 2pt
50.00 – KG post up Antawn to paint so lebron come help and jump contest so KG decide to pass out pass to allen miss shot. Rondo try rebound but hit ball to lebron hand ( HPD4 EHPD2 PP4 EPP2 DCT3 DREB3 EP2 Ndbx3 )
50.40 – Paul get ball so bron attempt steal but fail. Bron recover and come on paul so paul pass out. Bron see KG open get ball so bron come help on KG so KG pass out to paul. Paul pass to rondo for a drive pass to davis for a foul ( PPD10 HPD5 )
52.15 – Rondo drive layup on fastbreak miss. Lebron boxout for rebound. Davis got Rebiund but ball hit out his hand in paint ( DBX2 PP5 EPP3 )
53.56 – Lebron switch on rondo so rondo pass back to paul. Paul drive floater on Anthony
54.50 – Paul drive on Anthony so bron and Vare come help contest. Paul bad pass TOV ( HPD6 EHPD3 DCT4 )
Q3 Defense
55.00 _ lebron with Paul in post area and switch on rondo in paint when KG post up for a score
55.48 – Paul get ball at 3pt line Lebron try close out get screen but get pass that for contest the shot ( DCT6 PPD11 EPPD3 )
56.10 – Bron on Paul but KG come screen so bron switch. KG get ball with lebron try to defend the post up. Lebron foul KG ( PP5 IPP2 )
58.30 – Bron on the post then grab the rebound ( Dreb4 Nbdx4 EP3 )
59.12 – Bron at elbow with PP
100.05 – Bron at wing with PP then KG get ball so Bron try to go help but KG get foul first
102.13 – Bron on ball guard against tony allen. Tony attempt drive but lebron pick up so he pass to KG and bron double KG then tony cut get ball but get ball knock out ( PPD12EPPD4 )
102.55 – Lebron roam at paint and Allen hit corner 3pt
103.15 – Bron guard rondo but get screen by KG. Lebron get pass screen and go double rondo in post area. Rondo bad pass to KG near TOV. Them Allen drive layup on antawn ( PPD13 HPD7 EHPD4 )
104.14 – Rondo get ball ft line lebron pick him up. Rondo pass
104.48 – Bron roam at post see allen drive to basket so Lebron try to close out but tony allen offensive foul
105.45 – lebron in post see rondo drive so he close out to contest and rondo missed ( PP6 DCT7 )
106.50 – Lebron switch offball between tony to rondo. Shaq block shot out bound ( Celtic ball )
107.20 – Lebrom in post with tony while KG miss shot but rondo rebound. Rondo drive on parker missed
108.10 – Tony cut get ball so lebron contest at paint with shaq help. Tony get foul on a pass ( PP7 EPP4 DCT8 ) ( celtic ball )
108.45 – Allem drive layup on parker
109.12 – Lebron roam around wing post allen miss shot then rondo got rebound pass to allen at rim who lebron jump block shot ( PP8 EPP5 DCT8 ) ( Celtic ball )
109.57 – Tony get ball so bron pick up. Tony pass out. Allen attempt shot then lebron get rebound near the line so pass back. Ball loses JUMP ball ( Dreb5 NDbx 5) ( Celtic win jump ball )
111.00 – Lebron boxout tony for rebound ( Dreb6 Dbx 3)
111.16 – tony attempt fast break drive but lebron attempt steal make him pass to KG. Bad communication by bron and Vare so rondo cut to basket get ball then lay up ( PPD14IPPD4 )
112.40 – Bron with tony in post see perkin cut so he go on perkin but perkin let pass fly to rondo. Lebron close out in paint area so rondo pass. Lebron swith on tony off ball then get rebound ( D.reb7 NDbx 6 EP4 )
113.10 – Lebron in paint with tony see rondo drive so he contest shot but foul rondo ( PP9 IPP3 DCT9 )
116.20 – Lebron at ft line then attempt help in paint but Vare foul first
117.58 – Bron with rondo at 3pt line when PP missed shot, rondo foul Antawn for FTA
Q4 Defense
119.30 – Lebron try defend fast break. Contest Tony at rim but tony pass to rondo for a bucket ( PP10 DCT10 )
120.45 – Bron on PP off ball. Rondo pass get deflected ( Celtic ball )
121.10 – Lebron deny room for PP to get the ball. Rondo missed contested 3pt
121.48 – Rondo try outlet fastbreak pass but TOV
122.20 – Davis get out let fastbreak pass. Lebron not fast enout to contest so davis mad layup
123.30 – Lebron help hickson on tony at corner then go back to PP. Tony drive layup on Hickson ( HPD8 )
123.56 – Rondo bounce pass to davis for layup when bron is near top keys
125.00 – tony fast break layup. Bron not close for contest
125.40 – Lebron tight guard PP on ball make him loses handle but Davis drive to get ball pass out. PP get ball and bron contest 3pt make him miss ( PPD15-16 EPPD5 DCT11 )
126.45 – PP get bron so ball guard tight. PP pass out. Davis get ball post up Antawn then bron come help take ball away ( PPD17 EPPD6 HPD9 EHPD5 )
127.34 – Rondo pull up on parker when Lebron was with PP at wing
128.07 – Rondo drive get ball stole by Parker. Bron get the ball then go fast break
129.37 – Bron g=fight for position near paint with Wallace, then Wallace try rebound but push out
131.00 – Bron roam at FT line when Wallace miss shot Vare rebound
131.30 – tony get bounce pass from rondo in paint so Lebron contest block shot but MO foul tony
133.10 – Lebron in post when allen miss shot and KG get rebound on the other post. KG post up lebron see Rondo open so he off ball close out. Tony get ball then make tough layup ( OBD1 EOBD1 )
134.30 – Rondo fast break layup miss. Lebron boxout with Perkin for rebound but perkin foul Bron (FD9 )
135.23 – Perkin get ball in post open force vare to close out leave KG open so bron pick him up off ball then switch on Tony when Vare come back on KG ( OBD2 ) ( CELTIC BALL losesd ball foul on Antawn )
136.15 – Lebron fight position with PP then follow him to corner. Vare intercept the pass but get foul fot FTA
137.20 – PP get ball so bron close out force to pass then bron follow PP around. Allen get ball drive get shot block but rondo get ball bounce pass to PP who cut back door to bron. Bron try contest but fail ( PP11 IPP4 DCT12 )
138.16 – Bron at post with PP when KG miss shot but ball fall in rondo hand who make the shot
141.40 – Perkin foul parker in transition
142.10 – Bron in post when allen shot 3pt miss
143.57 – Bron foul tony to get ball
146.03 – Mo fpoul rondo for ball
END

RESUME of LEBRON 2010 vs celtic Game 4
Total Possession of play when lebron was on the floor – 85

Playmaking
-DTOs ( Defender take out ) - 70
-EDTOs ( Extra defender taken out ) - 39
- ADAs ( Additional Defenders Affected ) - 11
-Double - 12
-Triple - 2
-Création - 17
~ R’Creation ( Rim ) - 7
- P’Creation ( Prerimeter ) - 10
-SC ( Screen ) - 2
- EPDL( Elite pass delivery ) - 9
- RPDL ( Regular pass delivery ) - 20
- BRDL ( Bad pass delivery ) – 5
- BB ( Bring ball up ) - 21
Scoring
-FGA - 18
-FGM - 7
-M ( midrange ) – 4 ( 2/4 )
-P ( Post shot ) – 1 ( 1/1 )
-R ( Rim : lay up / dunk ) – 8 ( 4/8 )
-T ( 3pt ) – 5 ( 0/5 )
-PB ( Putback ) - 0
-FTA - 11
- FTM - 8
-OCT ( Offensive Contest ) - 15
-OUCT ( Offensive Uncontested ) - 3
Rebound
-O-Reb ( offensive Rebound ) - 1
-*Obx ( Offensive Box Out for Oreb ) -0
-*Nobx ( Non offensive Boxout Oreb) - 1
- D-reb ( defensive Rebound ) - 7
- Dbx ( defensive box out for Dreb ) - 3
- Ndox ( non defensive box out ) – 6
- EP ( Empty paint ) - 4
Defense
-PPs ( Primary Protection ) - 12
- EPP - 5
- IPP - 4
- PPDs ( Primary Perimeter defendings ) - 17
– EPPD - 6
- IPPD - 4
- DCT ( Defensive contest ) - 12
- NDCT ( non contest ) - 0
- HPD ( help defense ) – 9
- EHPD – 5
- IHPD - 0
- OBD ( Offball defense against advantageous position ) – 2
- EOBD - 1
- IOBD - 0

That's Lebron. Now Jordan's two best series games..

Spoiler:

HI GUYS. This MJ Game 2 in 1991 final against LAKERS Offense only

Watch on YouTube

Playmaking
-DTOs ( Defender take out )
-EDTOs ( EXTRA defender taken out )
-Double
-Triple
- ADAs ( additional defender affected )
-Création ~ R’Creation ( Rim )/ P’Creation ( Prerimeter )
-SC ( Screen assist ) ( GHOST SCREEN DO NOT COUNT )
- EPDL( Elite pass delivery ) for creation or when the defense is attach on his presence
- RPDL ( Regular pass delivery ) for creation or when the defense is attach on his presence
- BRDL ( Bad pass delivery ) for creation or when the defense is attach on his presence
Scoring
-FGA
-FGM
-M ( midrange )
-P ( Post play )
-R ( Rim : lay up / dunk )
-T ( 3pt )
-PB ( Putback )
-FTA + FTM
-OCT ( Offensive Contest )
-OUCT ( Offensive Uncontested )
- FD ( Foul draw by defender )
( P - Possession. If your team get the Oreb or foul and your team get control of the ball it will be counted as same possession )
Q1
P’ 1 - 0:52 - MJ get the ball at 3ptline from Pipen then pass out to Paxson on top keys MJ run off ball to the paint. Paxson give back to pipen who pump fake for midrange missed. Grant get oreb pass to Pipen who pass to Paxson for a drive floater
P’ 2 - 1:40 - MJ brings ball up to top key then bill come screen. MJ drive nearly get double but foul Offensive offball ( BB1 )
P’ 3 - 2:30 - MJ gets ball on top keys, reset back to Pippen. Pippen drive see double pass back to MJ, MJ see Grant cutting off to the elbow and see defender not rotating sp he pass to Grant for a miss shot ( DTOs1 P’Creation1 RPDL1 )
P’ 4 - 2:54 - MJ bring ball up pass to Bill on the post. Then cut in paint but bill get double and foul ( BULLS ball ) ( BB2 )
P’ 4 -3.19 – MJ on shoer corner run out to 3pt line while Pipen make great pass for bill for a dunk
P’ 5 - 3:42 - MJ bring ball up Grant make ghost screen then roll to the paint and Bill come set another screen so there 2 defender facing MJ leaving Grant open on right wing. So MJ pass to Grant for basket. (BB3 DTO2-3 ADAs1 R’Creation1 RPDL2 )
P’ 6 - 4:14 - MJ bring ball up to the corner so Grant come make soft screen then back in paint so MJ get double, pass to Grant but bad pass TOV ( BB4 Double1 BPDL1 )
P’ 7 - 4:25 – Pipen steal in transition pass to MJ at half court who pass drive to FT line and pass to Bill in paint ( DTOs4 R’Creation2 RPDL3 )
P’ 8 - 5:52 - MJ Move off ball to top keys and get the ball from Grant, backing down Scott and shoot a fade away ( FGA1 FGM1 M1 OCT1 )
P’ 9 - 6:25 - MJ outlet pass to Paxson in transition and he get ball back on top of key. See Pipen cut to the rim so He try a lob pass ( Too low ) so pipen Missed but Bill Clean up
P’ 10 - 8:17 -MJ get ball at 3pt line get double ao he dribble around then pass to Grant in Paont for a lay up ( Double2 DTO5-6 EDTOs1 EPDL1 R’Creation3 )
P’ 11 - 10:20 - MJ get ball see Bill posting so he pass and let bill Create FAIL
P’ 12 - 11:05 – MJ Bring ball up pass to pipen top keys then off ball screen for Paxson but too late so paxson defender stay tight. MJ on post when paxson create and pass to Grant ( BB5 )
P’ 13 - 11:48 - MJ bring ball up pass to Paxson in transition for a 3pt ( BB6 DTOs7 RPDL4 )
P’ 14 - 12:14 - MJ get ball from pipen and pass to paxson top keys. Paxson pass to pipen who post drive split thru double for layup
P’ 15 - 14:20 - MJ bring ball up pass to cliff then run off ball around to the paint ( BB7 )
P’ 16 - 14:57 - MJ brings ball to the elbow see double team coming so he pass to bill for layup. ( DTOs8-9 EDTOs2 R’Creation4 RPDL5)
P’ 17 - 16:20 - MJ bring ball up and drive get double in the post with another defender in his lane so he pass to Bill ( BAD PASS Could be Creation ). Bill pass to pipen for midrange Missed. MJ get Oreb try a midrange MISSED ( BB8 Double3 DTOs8-9-10 EDTOs2 ADAs2 BPDL2 FGA2 M2 OCT2 )
P’ 18 - 17:14 - MJ brings ball up Bill screen and POP at the FT line while MJ dribble to elbow and pass to Grant in paint. ( BB9 DTOs10-11 EDTOs3 RPDL6 )
P’ 19 - 18:00 - MJ get ball pass to bill who try post up but TOV
P’ 20 - 18:20 - MJ bring ball up, pass to Pippen on top keys then cut to the other side Post ( BB10 )
Q2
P’ 21 - 27:48 – MJ post up off ball try to get the ball but get intercepted ( BULLS ball )
P’ 21 -28.10 - MJ on short corner posting off ball then he get the ball Magic come double so MJ pass to cutting BJ who missed layup ( Double4 DTOs12-13 EDTOs4 RPDL7 )
P 22 – 29.34 – MJ get ball then pass to Pippen to create
P’ 23 - 30:10 - MJ on top of key, pass to Armstrong. Get ball back and try a 3pt MISSED ( FGA3 T1 OCT3 )
P’ 24 - 31:29 - MJ drives see 2 extra defender on the lane with one of them being screen by Bill so he kick to paxson for 3pt ( DTOs14-15-16 EDTOs5 ADAs3 P’Creation2 RPDL8 )
P’ 25 - 31:57 – Grant steal pass to MJ in transition MJ bullet pass thru magic for Grant who loses the ball ( DTOs17 RPDL9 )
P’ 26 - 32:14 - MJ Bring ball up pass to paxson and cut in paint but decide to go off at 3pt. pipen get double pass op wide open MJ who drive lay up ( BB11 FGA4 R1 FGM2 OCT4 )
P’ 27 - 32:50 - Pippen bounce pass to MJ in transion for open lay uo ( FGA5 FGM3 R2 OUCT1 )
P’ 28 - 33:46 - Bill handoff to MJ, drive then pull-up at FT line for basket. ( FGA6 M3 FGM4 OCT5 )
P’ 29 - 35:14 - Grant to MJ near elbow, MJ then drive post up a bit then spin move for a shot. ( FGA7 FGM5 P1 OUCT2 )
P’ 30 - 36:15 - MJ bring ball up then pass to pipen top keys. Pippen pass to bill for a shot missed ( BB12 )
P’ 31 - 36:52 - MJ bring ball up pass to Pippen who fake drive bring 3 defender on him and pass to paxson
P’ 32 - 38:35 – Mj bring ball up from inbound reset with paxson then post up scoot fake shot bring AC green to come contest so MJ pass to grant for open dunk ( BB13 DTOs18-19 EDTOs6 EPDL2 R’Creation5 )
Q3
P’ 32 - 40:32 - MJ bring ball up in transition bullet pass to Paxson. Mj get it back give to bill to create for himself at post
P’ 33 - 41:00 – MJ at the elbow off ball when Pippen get the ball and pass to grant for layup
P’ 34 – 41.27 – Pippen bring ball up pass to MJ. MJ pass to Grant posting then cut in paint
P’ 35 - 41:56 - MJ pass to Pippen fastbreak but Pippen travel
P’36 - 43.06 – MJ in the corner when PIPPEN work in the paint
P’ 37 - 43:42 – MJ bring ball drive kick to Grant open at 3pt :NONE CREATION cause Grant isn’t a shooter so they willing to leave him open there ( BB14 DTOs20-21 EDTOs7 RPDL10 )
P’ 38 - 44:13 – MJ get ball pass back to PIPPEN then cut to the other side on the elbow. He get the ball for a jumper ( FGA8 FGM6 M4 OCT7 )
P’ 39 - 44:38 – MJ bring ball up fast break bounce pass to Pippen who gets fouled. ( BB15 DTOs22-23 EDTOs8 EPDL3 R’Creation6 ) ( BULLS ball with FT )
P39 – 46.09 – MJ posting get foul. Next play Paxson bouce pass to Bill for a dunk ( FD1 )
P’ 40 – 47.50 - MJ Bring ball up pass to Paxson. Get ball back pump fake drive lay up ( BB16 FGA9 FGM7 R3 OCT8 )
P’ 41 - 48:14 - MJ bring ball up pass to Bill in post ( BB17 )
P’ 42 - 48:50 - MJ get ball half court drive pull up mid range ( FGA10 FGM8 M5 OCT9 )
P’ 43 - 49:56 – MJ off ball cut to post get the ball and get doubled in post, fake shot and pass to paxson shoot ( DTOs24-25 EDTOs9 P’Creation3 Double5 EPDL4 )
P’ 44- 50:50 - MJ get ball at post and hit a turnaround fade away ( FGA11 FGM9 P2 OCT10 )
P’ 45 - 52:04 - MJ bringing ball up Blow by paxson for a pull up and ONE ( BB18 FGA12 FGM10 M6 OUCT2 FD2 FTA1 FTM1 )
P’ 46 - 59:23 - MJ Cut off ball around the court and get ball at elbow drive post up get double and with anoth defender on weak side he pass to paxson for long 2pt ( Double6 EDTOs26-27-28 EDTOs10-11 P’Creation4 EPDL5 )
P’ 47 - 1:00:41 - MJ recieves ball in low-post GET FOUL ( FD3 FTA2-3 FTM2 ) ( Pippen Oreb Bull ball )
P’47 - 101.40 -MJ gets ball from top of key and drive split defender for a lay up ( FGA13 FGM11 R4 OCT11 )
P’ 48 - 1:02:46 - MJ get ball on wing drive see double team so he jump pass to open pippen for a lay up ( DTOs29-30-31 EDTOs12 ADAs4 P’Creation5 RPDL11 )
Q4
P’ 49 - 1:04:43 - MJ get ball in the post get double pass to Grant cutting but sam perkins was in the paints to catch grant to deny his shot ( Double6 DTOs32-33 EDTOs13 RPDL12 )
P’50 - 104.57 – Pippen get Dreb and run the fastbreak with Grant. Pippen attempt drive but missed the layup
P’ 51 - 1:06:54 - MJ brings ball up drive to elbow side step midrange ( BB19 FGA14 FGM12 M7 OCT12 )
P’ 52 - 1:08:16 - MJ brings ball up, dribbles around the top keys and FT line but get FOUL CALL WITH illegal defense ( BB20 FD4 FTA4 FTM3 ) ( Bull ball )
P’ 52 -110.00 - Pippen finds MJ, dribbles to short corner then pull up midrange ( FGA15 FGM13 M8 OCT13 )
P’ 53 - 1:10:35 - Michael brings it up then lop to pippen. ( BB21 DTOs34 R’Creation7 EPDL6 )
P’ 54 - 1:11:16 - MJ reset ball with pippen on top keys then post up bring 3 defender around so he jump pass to open Pippen ( DTOs35-36-37 EDTOs14-15 P’Creation6 RPDL13 )
P’ 55 - 1:11:53 - MJ bring up the ball to top keys then pass to grant. Grant drive pass back to Jordan. So Jordan drive and layup ( BB22 FGA16 FGM14 R5 5OUCT3 )
P’ 56 - 1:14:03 - MJ on top of key, get the ball then go post up. Spin move fade but MISSED ( FGA17 P3 OCT14 )
P’ 57 - 1:15:34 – PIPPEN bring ball up pass to MJ half court MJ rest with pippen. MJ get double top keys pass back to Pippen. Pippen attempt drive see double so kick to MJ who drive pull up from FT line ( Double 7 FGA18 FGM15 M9 OCT 15 )
P’ 58 - 1:16:16 - MJ get ball at logo dribble to top keys wit hmagic on him. Worthy come help so MJ pass to open pippen at 3pt line cause bad rotation by divac who choose to close the paint instead on roaming near pippen. Bad pass from MJ make Pippen loses time to get the ball and Pippen drive TOV ( DTOs38-39 EDTOs16 BPDL3 )
P’ 59 - 1:17:00 - MJ finds wide open Grant in corner. Grant get double pass to pippen for a shot
P’ 60 - 1:17:40 - MJ get the ball at the logo then get double. He pullet pass to Grant at the rim for a pump fake and dunk ( Double8 DTOs40-41 EDTOs17 R’Creation8 EPDL7 )
P’ 61 - 1:17:59 – Bulls stole the ball. Pippen pass to MJ. Mj pass back and go to wing 3pt line. Pippen pump fake drive layup

RESUME Game 2 MJ 1991 offensively
Total Possession when MJ was in the floor – 61
Total Possession of play MJ have action both on/off ball – 58
Total Possession of play MJ didn’t affect or didn’t have the opportunity to affect – 3
Playmaking
-DTOs - 41
-EDTOs – 17
- ADAs – 4
-Double - 8
-Triple - 0
-Création - 14
~ R’Creation ( Rim ) - 8
- P’Creation ( Prerimeter ) - 6
-SC ( Screen ) - 0
- EPDL( Elite pass delivery ) - 7
- RPDL ( Regular pass delivery ) - 13
- BRDL ( Bad pass delivery ) – 3
- BB ( Bring ball up ) - 22
Scoring
-FGA - 18
-FGM - 15
-M ( midrange ) – 9 ( 8/9 )
-P ( Post play ) – 3 ( 2/3 )
-R ( Rim : lay up / dunk ) – 5 ( 5/5 )
-T ( 3pt ) – 1 ( 0/1 )
-PB ( Putback ) – 0
-FTA - 4
+ FTM – 3
-OCT ( Offensive Contest ) - 15
-OUCT ( Offensive Uncontested ) - 3
- FD ( Foul draw by defender ) - 4

Spoiler:

In this game, we see how good Jordan is on both ends of the floor, as this is his peak season.

This is also for something newer, tracking how Jordan did in isolation as scorer on-ball. Also how much they initiated the play (by bringing ball up, to start it off, or outlet pass, stealing ball to initiate transition play, etc), also how they did in tough coverage (doubled or tripled).
Reason for doing this is due to elpolo_14 mentioning how Jordan had these advantages here (Will track Steph later to compare): viewtopic.php?p=118963162#p118963162

Game link -

Watch on YouTube

Here is what we will be tracking:
Playmaking -
-DTOs ( Defender taken out)
-EDTOs ( Extra defender taken out )
-Double
BB ( BRING Ball up )
-Création ~ R’Creation ( Rim )/ P’Creation ( Prerimeter )
-SC ( Screen assist ) ( GHOST SCREEN DO NOT COUNT )
EPDL( Elite pass delivery ) for creation or when the defense is attach on his presence
- RPDL ( Regular pass delivery ) for creation or when the defense is attach on his presence
- BRDL ( Bad pass delivery ) for creation or when the defense is attach on his presence
Scoring -
-M (mid-range)
-P (post play)
-R (rim)
-T (3pt)
-PB (putback)
OCT (offensive contested)
OUCT (offensive uncontested)
FD (foul drawn )
Offensive rebounding -
OBX (offensue boxout)
NOBX (non offensive boxout)

Defense -
-PPs – EPP/IPP ( Primary Protection ) ( E – effective / I – Ineffective )
- PPDs – EPPD/IPPD ( Primary Perimeter defendings ) ( E – effective / I – Ineffective )
- DCT ( Defensive contest )
- NDCT ( non contest )
- HPD ( help defense ) – EHPD/IHPD ( E – effective / I – Ineffective )
DBX (defensive boxout)
NDBX (non-defensive boxout)

For in iso: ISO M 1/1 as example
For in tough coverage: Doubled 1 DTO
For play initiator: IN


Offense -

Possession 1 - 1:46 - Jordan finds ball top of key, to Pippen driving to draw foul.
Possession 2 - 3:20 - Pippen initiate play by bringing ball up, to Jordan right wing, draw two defenders, pass to Cartwright, and back, Jordan pass to Cartwright making fadeaway. (Jordan doubled 2 DTOs, 1 EDTO. Jordan - 3 DTOs, 1 EDTO, 1 creation,1x doubled, 1 RPDL)
Possession 3 - 3:50 - Pippen again initiate ball and Jordan scores deep mid-range jumper. (Jordan ISO 1/1 M. Jordan - 1/1 M)
Possession 4 - 4:24 - Pippen pass to Jordan after bringing ball up, ball to Paxson to Grant, Jordan finds himself open losing his man off-ball, but Grant bad decision making. (Jordan - 4 DTOs)
Possession 5 - 4:58 - Jordan misses wide-open one legged jumper from the corner. (Jordan - 1/2 M)
Possession 6 - 5:17 - Jordan with ball in half-court, gets a pass to Cartwright missing a one-handed shot . (Jordan - 6 DTOs, 2 EDTOs, 2 RPDL)
Possession 7 - 5:31 - Jordan initiate offense with ball brought up, handoff to Paxson, moves down to elbow,, as Magic header into out of bounds. (Jordan - 1 BB, 1 IN)
Possession 8 - 6:29 - Jordan bring up ball initiating offense, pass to Pippen. (Jordan - 2 BB, 2 IN)
Possession 9 - 6:54 - As Grant gets pass Jordan cuts behind him, Jordan in ISO misses semi-open mid range shot. (Jordan ISO 1/2 M. Jordan - 1/3 M).
Possession 10 - 7:13 - Jordan bring up ball to initiate offense, nice hezi top of key to beat his man blow by to get a nice dunk. (Jordan - 3 BB, 3 IN, 1/1 R, 7 DTOs)
Possession 11 - 7:37 - Jordan gets ball on left wing, post-up and draws foul. Jordan makes 1 FT. (Jordan ISO 1 FD. Jordan - 1 FD)
Possession 12 - 10:18 - Jordan finds ball in left wing moving out, beats his man with blow by for another dunk. (Jordan ISO 1/1 R, Jordan - 2/2 R, 8 DTOs)
Possession 13 - 10:52 - Jordan finds ball in key, goes through a crowded paint missing, shot, boxes out for the rebound, and separates himself to make a close mid-range shot. (Jordan - 2x doubled, 2/3 R, 2/4 M, 1 OBX)
Possession 14 - 11:10 - Jordan gets ball on logo, goes to right elbow doubled pass to Cartwight losing it. Jordan heads back to top of key where Grant gives it to him, Jordan finds Pippen in tight window, who gets a dunk. (Jordan doubled 4 DTOs, 2 EDTOs. Jordan - 2 creation, 1 BPDL, 3 RPDL, 3x doubled, 11 DTOs, 3 EDTOs)
Possession 15 - 11:47 - Jordan gets ball in half-court, good pass delivery to Pippen but shot blocked.
Jordan then gets ball in left wing, with DIvac on him and then switch, Jordan with pass mid-air to Paxson who hits the shot. (Jordan - 3 creation, 1 EPDL, 12 DTOs)
Possession 16 - 13:37 - Jordan initiate offense with deep pass to Pippen. (Jordan - 4 IN)
Possession 17 - 14:43 - Jordan in transition gets ball from Pippen, goes in strong for a dunk. (Jordan -3/4 R)
Possession 18 - 16:36 - Jordan bring up ball pass to Pippen going up and around his man for layup. (Jordan - 5 IN, 4 BB, 4 creation, 4 RPDL)
Possession 19 - 17:35 - Jordan gets ball, move around to hit mid-range shot in ISO. (Jordan ISO 2/3 M, Jordan - 3/5 M)
Possession 20 - 19:20 - Jordan initiate offense, goes on ISO vs Scott and makes another mid-range jumper. (Jordan ISO 3/4 M. Jordan - 6 IN, 5 BB, 4/6 M)
Possession 21 - 19:49 - Jordan brings up ball, double teamed and great pass to inside to Grant making easy layup. (Jordan doubled 6 DTOs 3 EDTOs. Jordan - 5 creation, 2 EPDL, 14 DTOs, 4 EDTOs, 5x doubled)
START OF 2Q
Possession 22 - 21:15 - Jordan bring up ball, ball to Levingston as he finds himself open for ball by Hopson. He misses a mid-range shot. (Jordan ISO 3/5 M. Jordan - 7 IN, 6 BB, 4/7 M)
Possession 23 - 22:39 - Jordan gets ball left wing, drive stopped by Divac, tries to make a hezi but commits turnover as Divac steals ball from him.
Possession 24 - 23:22 - Jordan gets ball on top of key, post up his man, as triple team come he pass to Perdue for the dunk. (Jordan doubled 9 DTOs 5 EDTOs. Jordan - 6 creation, 5 RPDL, 17 DTOs, 6 EDTOs, 6x doubled)
Possession 25 - 23:55 - Jordan brings ball up, pass to Levingston, and to Cartwright for missed 3. (Jordan - 8 IN, 7 BB)
Possession 26 - 24:22 - Jordan brings ball up and makes bad pass for turnover. (Jordan - 9 IN, 8 BB, 2 BPDL)
Possession 27 - 25:43 - Jordan brings ball up, pass to Craig who scores clean mid-range. (Jordan - 10 IN, 9 BB, 7 creation, 19 DTOs, 7 EDTOs)
Possession 28 - 26:37 - Jordan brings ball up again, tries to get into paint, but bad pass by Jordan knocked away. (Jordan doubled 11 DTOs 6 EDTOs. Jordan - 11 IN, 10 BB, 21 DTOs, 8 EDTOs, 3 BPDL, 7x doubled)
Possession 29 - 27:31 - Jordan brings ball up to start transition play, he can't decelerate and commits turnover. (Jordan - 12 IN, 11 BB)
28:03 - Jordan off
33:49 - Jordan on
Possession 30 - 34:30 - Jordan gets ball from Pippen, pass to Pippen trying to find his way inside, comes back to find ball, pass mid-air to B.J, to Pippen missing tough shot.
Possession 31 - 36:29 - Jordan finds himself open for a low post turnaround fadeaway with the foul drawn. Jordan makes 1 FT.(Jordan - 0/1 P, 2 FD)
Possession 32 - 39:33 - Jordan gets ball in transition, pass back to B.J, and back to Jordan for wide open dunk for 2 on 1 play. (Jordan - 4/5 R)
Possession 33 - 40:10 - Jordan gets ball on left wing, hezi and loses ball tipped away 1 on 1.
Possession 34 - 42:11 - Jordan brings up ball, gets into key and pass to Armstrong missing wide open 3. (Jordan - 13 IN, 12 BB, 8 creation, 23 DTOs, 9 EDTOs, 5 RPDL)
Possession 35 - 44:15 - Jordan brings up ball, pass it to Armstrong hitting 3 over Magic. (Jordan - 14 IN, 13 BB, 9 creation, 24 DTOs, 6 RPDL)
Possession 36 - 46:40 - Jordan hand-off to Pippen in Lakers side of court.
START OF 3Q
Possession 37 - 50:25 - Jordan doubled on right block, gets to the elbow and draws a foul. Jordan makes both FTs. (Jordan - 3 FD)
Possession 38 - 51:47 - Jordan on top of key, gets doubled then pass to Grant who misses shot. (Jordan doubled 13 DTOs 7 EDTOs. Jordan - 26 DTOs, 10 EDTOs, 7 RPDL, 8x doubled)
Possession 39 - 52:06 - Jordan bring up ball to left wing, passing to Cartwright in the corner for a 3. (Jordan - 28 DTOs, 11 EDTOs, 10 creation, 8 RPDL)
Possession 40 - 53:32 - Jordan misses a pull-up jumper. (Jordan - 4/8 M)
Possession 41 - 53:59 - Jordan bring up ball, two men switch onto him multiple time, he goes up for layup and pass to Paxson. Then Jordan boxout for offensive rebound for Grant putback. (Jordan - 15 IN, 14 BB, 2 OBX)
Possession 42 - 55:38 - Jordan post up, doubled and to Pippen, who miss shot. (Jordan doubled 15 DTOs 8 EDTOs. Jordan - 30 DTOs, 12 EDTOs, 11 creation, 3 EPDL, 9x doubled)
Possession 43 - 56:07 - Jordan bring up ball, hezi at the top of the key, doubled and passes to Paxson for a missed 3. (Jordan doubled 17 DTOs 9 EDTOs. Jordan - 32 DTOS, 13 EDTOs, 12 creation, 9 RPDL, 12 creation, 10x doubled)
Possession 44 - 56:30 - Jordan ball top of key, pass to Paxson.
Possession 45 - 57:09 - Jordan bring up ball, pass to Cartwright and back, gets to top of key with window pass to Pippen. Then, Jordan gets ball and doubled, to Paxson, to Pippen getting ball for dunk. (Jordan doubled 19 DTOs 10 EDTOs. Jordan - 36 DTOs, 15 EDTOs, 10 RPDL, 4 EPDL, 11x doubled, 16 IN, 15 BB)
Possession 46 - 59:08 - Jordan brings up ball, gets to corner pass to Cartwight moves to left wing as Pippen gets it to Jordan. Jordan hits a 3 pointer in iso. (Jordan ISO 1/1 T. Jordan - 17 IN, 16 BB, 1/1 T)
Possession 47 - 59:47 - Jordan brings up ball drives in crowded area and gets turnover. (Jordan - 18 IN, 17 BB)
Possession 48 - 1:00:38 - Jordan gets into post, shot blocked by Divac.
1:01:20 - Jordan off
1:08:10 - Jordan on
Possession 49 - 1:08:27 - Jordan brings up ball, handoff to Paxson, then back to Jordan as he kicks it to Paxson on the corner, he bricks. (Jordan - 19 IN, 18 BB)
START OF 4Q
Possession 50 - 1:13:23 - Jordan gets ball spins and hits post shot in the middle. (Jordan - 1/2 P)
Possession 51 - 1:13:55 - Jordan using his off-ball movement to get out of double, he gets inside and handoff to Levingston making shot. (Jordan - 13 creation, 11 RPDL)
Possession 52 - 1:14:16 - Jordan in transition starts it off passes to Armstrong going hard for the layup. (Jordan - 14 creation, 12 RPDL, 37 DTOs, 20 IN)
Possession 53 - 1:15:52 - Jordan brings up ball, gets into isolation and makes a mid-range shot. (Jordan ISO 4/6 M. Jordan - 21 IN, 19 BB, 5/9 M)
Possession 54 - 1:16:24 - Jordan brings up ball makes a mid-range shot in transition. (Jordan - 22 IN, 20 BB, 6/10 M)
Possession 55 - 1:17:23 - Jordan brings up ball, gets into the right corner and makes a pass. (Jordan - 23 IN, 21 BB)
Possession 56 - 1:18:12 - Jordan brings up ball, draws foul in the key. Then Jordan gets ball in key, pulls-up mid-range and miss, gets ball back to him, gets to the block and draws another foul. Jordan then looks for ball in left elbow, drives and gets blocked by Divac. (Jordan - 5 FD, 6/11 M)
Possession 57 - 1:20:50 - Jordan gets ball from Pippen on log, makes mid-range jumper. (Jordan - 7/12 M)
Possession 58 - 1:21:18 - Jordan bring up ball, pass to Pippen getting it to B.J with bad pass delivery. (Jordan - 24 IN, 22 BB)
Possession 59 - 1:21:42 - Jordan bring up ball, pass to Hodges and he misses. (Jordan - 25 IN, 23 BB, 15 creation, 39 DTOs, 16 EDTOs)
Possession 60 - 1:23:00 - Jordan gets in paint tripled, finger roll pass to Grant going for easy dunk. (Jordan doubled 22 DTOs 12 EDTOs. Jordan - 16 creation, 42 DTOs, 18 EDTOs, 12x doubled)
Possession 61 - 1:23:40 - Jordan gets ball and plays 1v1 vs Scott, with hezi in short corner, makes short fadeaway in post. Jordan makes his FT. (Jordan ISO 1/1 P, 2 FD. Jordan - 6 FD, 2/3 P)
Possession 62 - 1:25:56 - Jordan gets ball left wing, drive and pass to Paxson and he misses. (Jordan - 17 creation, 44 DTOs, 19 EDTOs)
Possession 63 - 1:27:30 - Jordan gets ball and drive from the corner, misses reverse layup fouled. Jordan makes both FTs. (Jordan - 7 FD, 3/5 R)
Possession 64 - 1:31:02 - Jordan doubled gets ball top of key pass to Paxson missing a shot. (Jordan doubled 24 DTOs 13 EDTOs. Jordan - 18 creation, 46 DTOs, 20 EDTOs, 13x doubled)
Possession 65 - 1:34:57 - Jordan gets ball, again in iso with Scott, he misses mid-range. (Jordan ISO 4/7 M. Jordan - 7/13 M)
Possession 66 - 1:43:13 - Jordan gets ball and drives bounces ball of a Laker leg. Then, Jordan gets ball inbounded to him left wing, crossover, and Jordan misses another game winning shot. (Jordan ISO 4/8 M. Jordan - 7/14 M)
END OF GAME

Final tally -
In ISO: 4/8 M, 1/1 T, 1/1 P, 1/1 R
In tough coverage: 24 DTOs, 13 EDTOs
Initiating possession count: 25

Scoring:
7/14 M
2/3 P
1/1 T
3/5 R
7 FD

Playmaking:
18 creation
46 DTOs
20 EDTOs
13x doubled
15 RPDL
5 EPDL
3 BPDL

Ball-handling and offensive rebounding:
3 OBX
23 BB





Defense -
Possession 1 - 0:55 - Jordan on Magic top of key, gets past screen, Magic pass to Perkins as Jordan is roaming.
Then, Jordan facing Magic who post-up, no-look pass to Worthy who easily makes layup over Jordan. (Jordan - 1 PP, 1 IPP, 1 NDCT)
Possession 2 - 3:05 - Jordan on Magic, who pass to Divac as he roams again looking for steal.
Possession 3 - 3:40 - Magic running bringing ball up to right wing, gets ball to Worthy missing post shot.
Possession 4 - 4:04 - Magic bring up ball to top of key, pass to Scott, as Jordan falls into the paint.
Possession 5 - 4:40 - Jordan not on Magic off-ball advantageous position, so he leaves Magic for open 3 missed. (Jordan - 1 PPD, 1 IPPD, 2 NDCT)
Possession 6 - 5:02 - Jordan on Magic, passing to Worthy airballing with Jordan ball-watching.
Possession 7 - 7:27 - Jordan picks up Magic at half-court, Magic finds open window to Worthy.
Possession 8 - 10:00 - Jordan on Magic who pass to Perkins, taking out 3-4 defenders as Worthy hits his shot, while Jordan walk to rim.
Possession 9 - 10:30 - Jordan on Magic in right wing, jumps for pass-fake, passing to Perkins, as he walks into key, ball-watching. (Jordan - 2 PPD)
Possession 10 - 11:10 - Jordan picks up Magic, who gets it to Perkins as Jordan heads to the key, as Perkins hits a fadeaway.
Possession 11 - 12:23 - Jordan on Magic in half-court, and to Perkins, follows Magic to weakside, stonewalls him, gets some help, as Magic hits nice open pass to Perkins for 3. (Jordan - 3 PPD)
Possession 12 - 13:19 - Worthy misses contested fadeaway over Jordan, then Jordan doesn't contest DIvac after he gets rebound off of missed shots, and he stays in paint as Perkins makes jumper mid range. (Jordan - 4 PPD, 1 EPPD, 2 PP, 2 IPP, 1 DCT, 3 NDCT)
Possession 13 - 14:18 - Jordan on Magic top of key, pass deflected by Paxson.
Possession 14 - 14:59 - Jordan on Magic again as he gets past screen. Magic pass to Perkins who draws the foul.
Possession 15 - 16:15 - Jordan on Magic top of key, to Perkins as Jordan follows Magic. Magic goes into the middle missing the hook-shot over Jordan non-contest. (Jordan - 3 PP, 4 NDCT)
Possession 16 - 16:45 - Magic bring up ball with Jordan on him, Magic draws foul in paint. (Jordan - 4 PP, 3 IPP)
Possession 17 - 17:48 - Magic bring up ball, Jordan on him, to Perkins and back, back to Perkins as Jordan move inside, Grant gets loose ball foul. Jordan gets board. (Jordan - 1 NDBX)
Possession 18 - 19:30 - Magic on Jordan, and as defender goes to double him he makes a good read to Perkins for a 3.
START OF 2Q
Possession 19 - 21:43 - Jordan pump faked by Divac, his teammate covers for him, and he fouls Divac (not Jordan) (Jordan - 5 PP, 4 IPP, 1 HPD, 1 IHPD)
Possession 20 - 22:58 - Jordan on Magic, pass to Worthy as Jordan ball-watches, Worthy fakes out his man to get a shot off.
Possession 21 - 23:47 - Jordan on Magic, Magic pass to Worthy, Jordan here goes for block but faked out for drive, Worthy makes shot from deep post. (Jordan - 5 PPD, 2 IPPD, 2 DCT)
Possession 22 - 24:15 - Worthy gets ball, blows by Jordan for layup. (Jordan - 6 PPD, 3 IPPD)
Possession 23 - 24:23 - Jordan picks up Magic on the perimeter, Magic hits a no-look pass to Worthy who misses.
Possession 24 - 26:01 - Jordan on Magic, then passes to Worthy who loses ball as it slips.
Possession 25 - 27:15 - Jordan on Magic again, pass to Worthy missing turnaround fadeaway, Jordan gets rebound non-boxout. (Jordan - 2 NDBX)
28:03 - Jordan off
33:49 - Jordan on
Possession 26 - 35:06 - Jordan on Magic, pass to Worthy getting blocked by Levingston.
Possession 27 - 35:27 - Jordan goes inside to gamble for block, but it was a pass by Magic. Jordan follows Magic around, but he drives with his teammates covering for him. (Jordan - 6 PP, 5 IPP, 3 DCT)
Possession 28 - 38:38 - Jordan full-court press onto Magic but he passes and rotates onto Divac off-ball, Divac back to Magic, Magic drives with Jordan there and he gets it to Divac, to Magic as Pippen blocks him.
Possession 29 - 39:48 - Jordan on Magic top of key, he passes to Drew and back, to Wrthy, to Divac going inside for layup.
Possession 30 - 40:15 - Jordan on Magic with deep pass, to Scott as Jordan ball-watches.
Possession 31 - 42:10 - Jordan gets uncontested rebound. (Jordan - 3 NDBX)
Possession 32 - 42:24 - Jordan gets blown by Magic, covered by his teammates and TO commited. (Jordan - 7 PPD, 4 IPPD)
Possession 33 - 42:48 - Jordan on Magic bringing up ball, pass to Perkins, Jordan tries denying Magic ball as he gets it, pass to Worthy missing, Jordan with help defense on Scott. (Jordan - 8 PPD, 2 EPPD, 2 HPD)
Possession 34 - 44:50 - Jordan on Magic instantly drawing the foul after turnaround. (Jordan - 9 PPD, 5 IPPD)
Possession 35 - 49:00 - Jordan gets a steal off Magic full-court outlet at end of 2nd quarter. (Jordan - 10 PPD, 3 EPPD)
START OF 3Q
Possession 36 - 51:17 - Jordan full-court press Magic then get back to following Magic to top of key, pass to Cooper.
Possession 37 - 52:00 - Jordan lets Divac go in for an easy layup, assisted by Magic. (Jordan - 7 PP, 6 IPP, 5 NDCT)
Possession 28 - 52:24 - Jordan fronts Magic, pass to Scott who draws the foul.
Possession 29 - 53:37 - Jordan on Magic, pass to Worthy and back, Magic pass back to Worthy.
Possession 30 - 54:29 - Jordan on Magic looking for post-up, as he is doubled pass to Divac, and back, back to Divac who draws a foul.
Possession 31 - 55:53 - Jordan on Magic, to Worthy and to Divac who Pippen denies ball.
Possession 32 - 56:16 - Jordan block off of Perkins, and then Worthy makes easy layup over Jordan. (Jordan - 8 PP, 1 EPP, 6 NDCT)
Possession 33 - 56:53 - Jordan on Magic, pass to Perkins and back, he backs down Jordan and finds Divac but pass hit rim, Jordan gets ball. (Jordan - 4 NDBX)
Possession 34 - 58:33 - Jordan on Magic top of key, passing to Cooper and Jordan switching onto Worthy off-ball, Worthy gets it and pass to Magic making shot clock buzzer.
Possession 35 - 59:30 - Jordan on Magic backing him down, he gets help and then he pass to Perkins who misses open 3.
1:01:20 - Jordan off
1:08:10 - Jordan on
Possession 36 - 1:08:35 - Jordan holds Magic as he goes in transition getting a foul. Continuing, Magic gets inbounded ball, Jordan gets help and doesn't contest Magic for 3 as he hits one when shot clock winded down. (Jordan - 12 PPD, 7 IPPD, 3 HPD, 2 IHPD, 6 NDCT)
START OF 4Q
Possession 37 - 1:11:38 - Jordan gambling going for steal from pass, Perkins fouled as Pippen covers for Jordan. (Jordan - 9 PP, 7 IPP)
Possession 38 - 1:13:40 - Teagle gets ball and catch and shoots, Jordan couldn't get in time to contest. (Jordan - 13 PPD)
Possession 39 - 1:14:13 - Jordan collapsing onto Divac with 3 of his teammates, steals it from Divac initiating transition. (Jordan - 10 PP, 2 EPP, 4 HPD, 1 EHPD)
Possession 40 - 1:15:42 - Jordan on Magic, he passes to Perkins, Jordan gets rebound. (Jordan - 5 NDBX)
Possession 41 - 1:16:04 - Jordan on Magic with overhead pass to Perkins missing the shot.
Possession 42 - 1:16:34 - Jordan on Magic posting him up, gets help and Magic goes for hook to middle with Jordan fouling. (Jordan - 14 PPD, 8 IPPD)
Possession 43 - 1:20:57 - Jordan on Magic with pass to Worthy off of spin to make layup.
Possession 44 - 1:21:40 - Jordan gets board. (Jordan - 6 NDBX)
Possession 45 - 1:21:54 - Jordan gets posted up by Magic, fouls him (Jordan - 11 PP, 8 IPP)
Possession 46 - 1:25:24 - Jordan on Magic helping Pippen swarming him as he passes. (Jordan - 15 PPD, 4 EPPD, 5 HPD, 2 EHPD)
Possession 47 - 1:26:10 - Jordan helped with Pippen and he passes out. Jordan follows Magic around and he passes to open man for 3. (Jordan - 16 PPD)
Possession 48 - 1:28:50 - Jordan on Magic, this time not walled with Pippen's help.
Possession 49 - 1:32:08 - Jordan on Magic, he passes and Jordan follows Magic around, this time on opposite wing, overhead pass to Perkins who is fouled and1.
Possession 50 - 1:40:09 - Jordan on Magic, gets help as he passes to Perkins making the open 3 late in game.
END OF GAME

Final tally
16 PPD
4 EPPD
8 IPPD

11 PP
8 IPP
2 EPP

5 HPD
2 EHPD
2 IHPD

5 NDBX
70 possessions available

Hobbled Lebron in his 2nd worst series game was better than Jordan in his best series of the year in his 2 best games. You can make up all the excuses you want to, but it won't change how that peak Lebron was better than peak Jordan.[/quote]

I could go farther than this, but I won't for now... 10 Bron absolutely wipes 91 Jordan. He is clearing anyone not named 76-77 Kareem.

[Special_Puppy]

It’s very obvious that the 2011 Cavs being so much worse is about *a lot* more than just LeBron leaving.

Ok. How about we check out the GOAT peak's (2009-10 Bron) signals, in that exact year, 2009-10!!

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/807803459331555363/1392961773614661863/image.png?ex=6871703e&is=68701ebe&hm=6f7b5a73c988f1da6d238d656b98548089c746af11635de090fc46ef07619d8a&

That's +11.3 NRTG with Lebron (A 70 win pace!!!! ) 1st in the league in NRTG.
Without Lebron, a -5.6 NRTG (A 28 win pace). That's a top 5 worst in the league in NRTG.

ORTG with: +7.7 rORtg (1st in league by over 3 points!!!! )
ORTG without: -8.6 rORtg (last in league by over a point!!!!)
Diff: +16.3

DRTG with: -3.6 rDRtg (8th in the league)
DRTG without: -2.6 rDRtg (11th in the league)
Diff: +1.0

Jordan 91 comparison:

https://postimg.cc/cg7VV4dX

That is a 14.4 ORTG difference for the supposed GOAT peak (not even top 4 offensive peak lmao: 05 Nash, 87 Magic, this version of Bron (not best Bron offense szn) and 16 Steph are better offensively). That's less than Lebron and Jordan's main talking point is how his scoring apparently has this huge lift. It doesn't. Jordan doesn't have that much impact

Also, I know this isn't everything (film will be provided below for you), but it's still part of the reason 09-10 Bron massively blows out Jordan.



So even with the alternative (the same year where the roster was constructed exactly the same as in 09-10), Lebron has absolutely massive signals similar to the 2010-11 Cavs.


Even by film analysis he is better:

Nobody cares about hypotheticals.

Jordan played the 1991 postseason with knee tendinitis. "If he was healthy he would have averaged 36/10/10..."

Nah we ain't doing that. The 2010 Celtics series happened as much as you wish it hadn't.

Now, how about let's compare 2010 peak Bron to 1991 peak Jordan (using Lebron's 2nd worst series game and Jordan's 2 best ones)

Spoiler:

Lebron game 4 against Celtic 2010 both end

Watch on YouTube

;t=3534s

One of Lebron worst game in this series ( Second worst )

Playmaking
-DTOs ( Defender take out )
-EDTOs ( Extra defender taken out )
_ ADA ( Additional defender affected )
--Double
-Triple
-Création ~ R’Creation ( Rim )/ P’Creation ( Prerimeter )
-SC ( Screen assist ) ( GHOST SCREEN DO NOT COUNT )
- EPDL( Elite pass delivery ) for creation or when the defense is attach on his presence
- RPDL ( Regular pass delivery ) for creation or when the defense is attach on his presence
- BRDL ( Bad pass delivery ) for creation or when the defense is attach on his presence
- BB ( BRING Ball up )
Scoring
-FGA
-FGM
-M ( midrange )
-P ( Post play )
-R ( Rim : lay up / dunk )
-T ( 3pt )
-PB ( Putback )
-FTA + FTM
-OCT ( Offensive Contest )
-OUCT ( Offensive Uncontested )
- FD ( Foul draw by defender )

Rebound
-O-Reb ( offensive Rebound )
-*Obx ( Offensive Box Out )
-*Nobx ( Non offensive Boxout)
- D-reb ( defensive Rebound )
- Dbx ( defensive box out )
- Ndox ( non defensive box out )
- EP ( Empty Paint )
Defense
-PPs – EPP/IPP ( Paint Protection ) ( E – effective / I – Ineffective )
- PPDs – EPPD/IPPD ( Primary Perimeter defendings ) ( E – effective / I – Ineffective )
- DCT ( Defensive contest )
- NDCT ( non contest )
- HPD ( help defense ) – EHPD/IHPD ( E – effective / I – Ineffective )
- OBD ( Offball defense when the offball player is in action to make a play or in advantageous position ) – EOBD/IOBD ( E – effective / I – Ineffective )

( P - Possession. If your team get the Oreb or foul and your team get control of the ball it will be counted as same possession )
Q1 Offense
P1 = 0.15 – Bron get ball with Paul on him drive pass to shaq in post
P2 = 0.50 – Bron get ball on post with Paul face up game lebron try pump fake many time but Paul don’t bite. Shaq offensive foul
P3 = 1.28 – Bron bring ball up dribble to top key with Paul on him so he pass to Antawn at wing who drive lay up ( BB1 DTOs1 RPDL1 )
P4 = 2.19 – Lebron bring ball up get pick up by Allen then KG come double so bron bounce pass to Antawn who drive hand off to shaq for a dunk ( Double1 DTOs2-3 EDTOs1 RPDL2 R’Creation BB2)
P5 = 3.34 – Bron get bron top key from Mo then drive on allen spin move lay up ( FGA1 FGM1 R1 OCT1 )
P6 = 4.40 – bron bring ball up pass out. Mo get foul ( Heat ball ) ( BB3 )
P6 = 5.04 – Bron at corner when Mo pass to Antawn drive dunk
P7 = 6.22 – bron bring ball up Antawn come screen so bron drive so KG pick him up and Paul close on the lane. Bron pass to Anthony wide open for 3pt ( BB4 DTO4-5 EDTOs2 RPDL3 P’Creation1 )
P8 = 6.48 – Mo bring ball up pass to shaq who miss post shot. Bron at 3pt line
P9 = 7.10 – Bron bringball up fast break drive see double but rondo come steal from behide ( Double2 BB5 ) ( Cav ball )
P10 = 7.29 – Bron out bound pass to MO off screen for a long 2pt missed ( RPDL4 )
P11 = 8.45 – Mo bring ball up pass to bron on top keys. Bron pass to shaq in the post. Thrn cut to the basket with shaq bounce pass for him ( bad pass from shaq ) get intercepted
P12 = 9.12 – Lebron at 3pt line when Mo bring ball up and pass to Antawn for a miss shot
P13 = 9.40 – lebron stay at the wing when MO bring ball up and play PNR with shaq. Mo drive jump shot get block
P14 = 10.50 – West bring ball up so bron ghost screen then pop to the top keys. Defensive 3sec foul ( FTA1 FTM1 ) ( Cav ball )
P14 = 11.35 – Lebron get ball at wing then Antawn come screen for him. Lebron dribble pass KG who try to edge off screen and jump shot at top key missed ( FGA2 T1 OUCT1 )
P15 = 12.40- lebron cut backdoor to the post get ball and get foul suddenly ( FD1 ) ( Cav ball )
P15 = 13.20 – Bron have the ball on wing with tony allen on him and rondo on the side who is there to prevent a drive. Bron pass to open west but KG pick him up. West pass to Shaq for a foul ( DTOs6-7 EDTOs3 RPDL5 )
P16 = 14.40 – Lebron bringball up Antawn screen so the lebron try to drive with KG close out and Ray allen who close out in the lane. Pass ro Anthony at 3pt line but Ray allen able to close out but Anthony drive fake and hit a long 2pt ( BB6 DTOs8-9 EDTOs4 ADAs1 RPDL6 )
P17 = 15.20 – Lebron at 3pt line when shaq post up and get foul in paint
P18 = 17.48 – Lebron get ball on top key with Tony pick him up. Shaq come screen PNR and lebron drive get double kick to Anthony. Anthony drive with ray try to cover Vare come screen. Anthony floater on KG. Vare get Oreb pass to West for a MISSED 3pt ( DTOs10-11 EDTOs5 ADAs2 RPDL7 )
P19 = 18.25 – Lebron get ball on logo then Vare come screen PNR. Lebron drive get triple team but bad pass to Anthony at 3pt line get hit out bound ( Triple1 DTOs12-13-14 EDTOs6-7 BPDL1 ) ( Cav ball )
P19 = 19.05 get ball on wing and shoot a 3pt cause of shot clock missed ( FGA3 T2 OCT2 )
P20 = 19.47 – Lebron cut backdoor to post get ball with tony on him. Lebron drive but get trip so Foul ( FD2 FTA2-3 FTM2-3 )
P21 = 22.08 – Lebgron get ball at 3pt line drive on tony allen bad pass to Vare in paint TOV ( BPDL2 )
P22 = 23.00 – Bron bring ball up drive pull up jump shot at the wing ( BB7 FGA4 FGM2 M1 OCT3 )
P23 = 23.24 – west bring ball up drive kick to to Hickson who missed
P24 = 25.28 – west bring ball up so bron screen switch. West bad pass to bron but bron still able to get it drive get double for a foul in paint ( FD3 FTA4-5 FTM4 Double3 )
P25 = 26.42 – lebron bring ball up with rondo on him. He dribble around abit to waste the final shot clock. Powe come screen so bron fake drive see 3 defender on his path to the paint so kick to west at 3pt line who fake then drive get block ( DTOs15-16-17 EDTOs8-9 ADAs3 EPDL1 P’Creation2 ) ( Cav ball )
P25 = 27.16 – West get ball and give to bron with 2 sec left. Bron fake drive pull up long 2pt on tony missed ( FGA5 M2 OCT4 )
Q2 Offense
P26 = 37.47 – Lebron get ball near logo drive on allen with shaq screen but Perkin edge so bron pass to Antawn at 3pt linr who drive pass to west punp fake pass back to Antawn who missed ( DTOs18 ADAs4 RPDL8 )
P27 = 38.04 – lebron bring ball up with Paul close him up and rondo catching to help so bron pass to open Anthony who pass to Antawn get block ( BB8 DTOs19-20-21 EDTOs10-11 P’Creation3 EPDL2 )
P28 = 38.50 – Lebron waiting at 3pt line when west ISO ball get block
P29 = 40.10 – Lebron get ball at 3pt line pass to shaq then cut to basket. Shaq make shot of postup
P30 = 40.50 – Bron bring ball up post up rondo to paint attempt lay get block by perkins retake the Oreb but got foul ( BB9 FGA6 P1 OCT5 FD4 Oreb1 OBx1 ) ( cav ball )
P30 = 41.40 – Lebron drive get triple make a bouce pass to Anthony. Anthony can’t handle the ball and TOV ( triple2 DTOs22-23-24 EDTO12-13 RPDL9 )
P31 = 43.01 – Lebron running around paint offball then go out for ball at logo but get foul by allen ( FD5 FTA6-7 FTM5 )
P32 = 45.10 – lebron get ball corner drive on allen but perkin come double and KG on lane so Bron jump pass to antwan in paint for layup ( Double4 DTOs25-26-27 EDTOs14-15 R’Creation1 ADAs5 EPDL3 )
P33 = 45.34 – Lebron get ball then Antawn come screen allen so bron blow by KG and get double in paint but layup and ONE ( Double5 FGA7 R2 Oct6 FD6 FTA8 FTM6 )
P34 = 46.50 – bron bring ball up pass to mo at half court. Mo drive with bron cutting to basket but Mo get foul ( BB10 )
P35 = 47.51 – Lebron bring ball up fast break see 2 defender on his lane so kick to Anthony but bad pass TOV ( Could be Creation but bad pass ) ( BB11 DTOs28-29 EDTOs16 BPDL3 )
P36 = 48.38 – Bron get ball then play PNR with shaq. Lebron get double so bounce pass to shaq but KG rotate to meet shaq at rim. Shaq get foul ( Double6 Dto30-31 EDTOs17 RPDL10 )
P37 = 49.50 – Lebron go the post when Antawn get ball at rim for a layup from MO
P38 = 50.12 – Bron bring ball up passs to antawn at top keys. Then go offball post up on rondo at ft line but didn’t get the pass ( BB12 )
P39 = 52.00 – Lebron get ball top keys take ball off to logo then drive jump shot but ball get poke out his hand TOV ( FGA8 M2 OCT7 )
P40 = 52.30 – bron bring ball up drive in trasnsition get foul by allen ( FD7 FTA9-10 FTM7 )
P41 = 54.22 – Anthony pump fake and miss a 3pt when bron was at FT line
Q3 offense
P42 = 55.30 – Lebron get ball on the wing with Ray on him so Antawn come to screen but KG edge even before the screen is set. Lebron dribble by and KG + allen trip on each other so bron drive bounce pass to Antawn rolling for open dunk ( DTOs32-33-34-35 EDTOs18-19-20 EPDL3 R’Creation2 )
P43 = 55.52 – Mo bring ball up so Bron screen on rondo ( SC2 )
P44 = 57.40 – Bron get ball at half court with paul on him then KG switch on bron. Pass to Antawn at corner who drive get foul ( cav ball )
P44 = 58.10 – entry pass to shaq and get ball back. KG and Paul try to come on him and shaq roll to basket. Bron fake pass to shaq and pass to Antawn for open dunk ( DTO36-37 EDTOs21 ADAs6 R’Creation3 EPDL4 )
P45 = 58.42 – lebron bring ball up in transition and pass to Antawn when the defense didn’t set yet. Antawn drive hand off to shaq for a dunk ( BB13 DTO38-39 EDTOs22 P’Creation4 RPDL11 )
P46 = 59.25 – Mo bring ball up get kick ball ( CAV ball )
P46 = 59.47 – Bron get ball at top keys then drive layup on PP ( FGA9 FGM3 R3 OCT8 )
P47 = 101.13 – Bron get ball at 3ptline drive gte double then pass to shaq at rim who got foul ( DTOs40-41 EDTO23 RPDL12 R’Creation4 double7 )
P48 = 102.40 – Parker hit 3pt while bron at the wing
P40 = 103.00 – Mo bring ball Up so bron cut to basket . Mo drive hand off to shaq for a dunk
P50 = 103.38 -Mo bring ball Up get kick ball ( CAV BALL )
P50 = 104.00 – Bron get ball in corner but missed 3pt ( FGA10 T3 OCT9 )
P51 = 104.25 – Parker fastbreak pass to shaq at paint for easy layup
P52 = 105.14 – Brom at to the paint when Antawn get pass deflected out
P53 = 106.02 – Lebron go in paint but parker pass for bron get intercepted mid way
P54 = 107.42 – Bron bring ball Up drive get double but shot an toght fall away ( BB13 Double8 FGA11 FGM4 M3 OCT10 )
P55 = 108.54 – Mo bring ball Up dribble top key then made a 3pt
P56 = 111.03 -Bron bring ball Up drive get double and the ball got stole ( BB15 Double9 )
P57 = 112.20 – Lebron PNR with vare. Bron drive get double with another player attemptinga steal them bron bounce pass to vare for a layup ( DTOs42-43-44 EDTOs24-25 EPDL5 Double10 R’Creation5 )
P58 = 112.54 – bron bring ball Up then Antwan come screen. Lebron drive get 3 defender around him so pass yo MO for a 3pt ( BB16 DTOs 45-46-47 EDTOs26-27 ADAs7 P’Creation5 EPDL6 )
P59 = 114.06 – Bron get ball top key Vare come screen so bron drive get double pass to west who fake 3pt then get foul ( DTOs48-49-50 EDTO28-29 ADAs8 RPDL13 P’Creation6 )
P60 = 117.20 – Lebron get ball drive see double team coming so pass but get intercepted ( BPDL4 )
P61 = 117.35 – bron bring ball Up PNR with Vare bring 4 defender in Paint then pass to Mo who missed 3pt ( BB17 DTOs51-52-53-54 EDTOs30-31-32 EPDL6 P’Creation7 )
Q4 Offense
P62 = 119.27 – Parker TOV
P63 120.00 – Bron pump fake 2 time then shoot 3pt missed ( FGA12 T4 OUCT1 )
P64 = 121.25 – Bron bring ball up get double pass to parker. Get ball back drive pass to Hickson get ball back dribble out see double te4am coming pass to west who pass to parker missed 3pt ( DTOs55-56 EDTO33 RPDL14 Double11 / DTOs57-58-59 EDTO34-35 RPDL15 / DTOs60-61 EDTO36 RPDL16 P’creation8 ADAs9 )
P65 = 122.10 – Bron get ball at 3pt line see soft double so pass inside for Hictson. Loses ball TOV
P66 = 123.12 – Lebron bring ball Up get pick up half court by Rondo. Drive thru rondo but miss layup ( BB18 FGA13 R4 OCT11 )
P67 = 123.48 – Bron moving around backline when west drive layup got block
P68 = 124.50 – Lebron PNR with Vare. Bron see double coming bounce pass to vare who did get ball in time TOV ( DTOs62-63 EDTos37 BPDL5 )
P69 = 125.20 – Bron at 3pt line when Mo drive TOV
P70 = 126.00 – Amtawn miss wild open 3pt when bron at the wing
P71 = 127.05 – Bron bring ball Up PNR with Vare see lane block so give to mo who drive made shot ( BB19 )
P72 = 127.45 – Bron bring ball Up Antawn come screen lebron fake shoot then pass to open Antawn who drive pass to vare for a layup ( BB19 DTOs64-65 ADAs10-11 RPDL17 P’Creation9 )
P73 = 128.11 – bron bring ball Up fast break dunk ( BB20 FGA14 FGM5 R5 OUCT2 )
P74 = 129-56 – Bron post up at elbow get ball then pull back to top keys drtive on KG get double in Paint for a layup and ONE ( FGA15 FGM6 R6 OCT13 Double12 FD8 FTA11 FTM8 )
P75 = 131.15 – Bron cut backdoor to get pass at corner drive get double then pass to Antawn ar corner who drive pass to jame miss layup ( DTOs66-67 EDTOs38 P’Creation10 RPDL18 / FGA16 R7 OUCT3 )
P76 = 132.24 - – Bron cut backdoor to get pass at wing get sofr double see Vare cutting so pass to Vare for a layup and ONE ( DTOs68-69 EDTOs39 R’Creation6 RPDL19 )
P77 = 133.51 – Mo get foul by KG ( Cav ball )
P77 = 134.20 – Antawn miss layup while bron at corner
P78 = 135.00 – Lebron get ball at ft line then KG switch on him lebron pull back fake drive pass to vare miss open long 2pt ( DTOs70 RPDL20 )
P79 = 137.54 – Bron get ball PNR with MO get pick on by KG. pass back to Mo who drive pass to Antawn who loses ball
P80 = 139.41 – Bron get inbound pass drive but miss layup ( FGA17 R8 OCT14 )
P81 = 141.10 – Parker bring ball up then miss a pull up 3pt
P82 = 141.50 – Bron bring ball up then pull 3pt miss ( BB21 FGA18 T5 OCT 15 )
P83 = 142.20 – MO drive in fastbreak get foul
P84 = 145.00 – bron bring ball up but get double full court pass to mo who got foul by KG
P85 147.12 – Mo get inbound pass drive miss layup
END

Q1 Defense
P1 = 0.36 – Bron guardeing Paul on top key then KG come screen lebron cannot get pass the screen so shaq switch to Paul pull up jump shot ( PPDs1 )
P2 = 1.20 – Lebron on the elbow off ball and Paul is on 3pt line
P3 = 2.10 – ray allen post mo William lebron try to come help but too late
P4 = 3.10 – Rondo bring ball up hand off to Paul so lebron try to close out but get blow by. Paul drive but charge foul on Anthony ( PPD2 IPPD1 )
P5 = 4.30 – Bron guard Paul offball when ray hit a 3pt
P6 = 5.20 – Bron at elbow with Paul offball but CAV 3SEC foul ( Celtic ball )
P7 = 6.10 – ray allen get ball dribble to FT line bron come help so ray pass out to rondo who drive layup on contest ( HPD1 )
P8 = 6.40 – lebron switch on KG offball at elbow when rondo drive split layup on shaq + Anthony

P9 = 6.53 – Paul get ball in transition try to drive but bron pick him up. Paul backdown pass to KG in post ( PPD3 EPPD1 )
P10 = 7.40 – Lebron at the elbow with Paul then switch on rondo off ball. KG drive get foul on Antawn
P11 = 8.54 – Rondo bring ball up from transition. Lebron come from behide to to snatch the ball out and Cav ball ( PPD4 EPPD2 )
P12 = 9.20 – Lebron comeback defense in the paint roaming. Then try to close out on ray allen who got the ball at 3pt line. Allen blow by with bron on his side and meet shaq in paint for a floater ( PPD5 IPPD2 DUCT1 )
P13 = 9.49 – Rondo take ball fast break attempt drive on Anthony lebron who was on Perkins come help close the lane, Rondo kick to allen at 3pt line Missed 3pt. Paul Oreb get foul ( HPD2 EHPD1 )
P14 = 11.45 – Lebron set on elbow guard Paul offball. Rondo drive split defense for floater missed. Perkin foul offball
P15 = 14.23 – Lebron on tony allen. Rondo pass to tony but he pass back. Rondo lob to KG who cut backdoor on shaq
P16 = 15.04 – Lebron on post off ball guarding tony allen. When rondo hit a open jumper with KG Screening
P17 = 16.10 – Tony bring ball up so lebron is on him and force him to pass. Lebron follow tony to short corner but Rasheed come screen so tony cut back door for the ball in paint. Lebron get out screen and catch up in time. Tony pass back. Rondo dribble around abd miss his shot. Lebron boxout with tony in paint. Long rebound that Antawn loses it and end in tony hand. Who drive on Antawn for a foul ( PPD6 PP1 DBX1 )
P18 = 18.04 – Rondo bring ball up fast break lebron meet him at the paint and contest the shot make him miss. But KG steal Rebound from Vare for a lay up ( PP2 EPP1 DCT1 )
P19 = 19.10 – Rondo fast break drive on Anthony. Bron was tony coming back in transition
P20 = 21.00 _ lebron on elbow with tony when ray drive ge ball hit out hand by Vare ( Celtic ball )
P20 = 21.50 – Tony allen get ball top keys so lebron close out and contest shot ( PPD7 EPDD2 DCT2 )
P21 = 22.45 – Cav foul on rondo at Celtic court
P22 = 23.06 – Ray initiating fastbreak and drive but BAD defensive communication by the cav so lebron who was on Tony try to help but too late
P23 = 24.00 – lebron guard tony at FT line when Hickson foul Rasheed
P24 = 26.35 – Rondo pull up jump shot on west. When bron was on ft line with tony
P25 = 27.25 – Rondo get ball for yhe last shot but didn’t shoot in time
Q2 defense
38.00 – rondo get an outlet pass at rim attempt layup. Lebron follow try to catch up but too late. Rondo missed. Lebron get rebound ( Dreb1 Ndbx1 )
38.10 – Rondo get ball for the fast break lebron attempt steal at celtic half but fail. Rondo pass to KG to allen for 3pt ( PPD8 IPPD3 )
39.00 – rondo take ball up fast break. Lebron try to take a charge but get call BLOCKING FOUL at the rim ( PP3 IPP1 )
40.40 - Lebron follow Paul around off ball when ray miss a 3pt
42.08 – Rondo bring ball up in trasnsition nearly blow by Anthony so lebron come help but shaq foul rondo on weak side ( HPD3 )
44.10 – Lebron off ball on paul when Anthony foul rondo on drive
45.20 – Lebron recovery defense in transition but KG get an outlet pass at paint and Antawn is too slow to catch up so KG layup
46.38 – Lebron follow Paul offball then switch on rondo cause Paul screen Anthony. Rondo is force to pass to Paul who pump fake and miss a contested 2pt. lebron get Dreb ( PPD9 Dreb2 EP1 Ndbx2 )
47.46 – Lebron offball on paul then allen drive so bron attempt help but allen get ball stole before lebron come
48.20 – Lebron guard Paul at corner then come roam at post but rondo beat Anthony off dribble for a layup
49.30 – Lebron follow Paul around offball. Rondo BULLY Anthony off dribble and find KG for a long 2pt
50.00 – KG post up Antawn to paint so lebron come help and jump contest so KG decide to pass out pass to allen miss shot. Rondo try rebound but hit ball to lebron hand ( HPD4 EHPD2 PP4 EPP2 DCT3 DREB3 EP2 Ndbx3 )
50.40 – Paul get ball so bron attempt steal but fail. Bron recover and come on paul so paul pass out. Bron see KG open get ball so bron come help on KG so KG pass out to paul. Paul pass to rondo for a drive pass to davis for a foul ( PPD10 HPD5 )
52.15 – Rondo drive layup on fastbreak miss. Lebron boxout for rebound. Davis got Rebiund but ball hit out his hand in paint ( DBX2 PP5 EPP3 )
53.56 – Lebron switch on rondo so rondo pass back to paul. Paul drive floater on Anthony
54.50 – Paul drive on Anthony so bron and Vare come help contest. Paul bad pass TOV ( HPD6 EHPD3 DCT4 )
Q3 Defense
55.00 _ lebron with Paul in post area and switch on rondo in paint when KG post up for a score
55.48 – Paul get ball at 3pt line Lebron try close out get screen but get pass that for contest the shot ( DCT6 PPD11 EPPD3 )
56.10 – Bron on Paul but KG come screen so bron switch. KG get ball with lebron try to defend the post up. Lebron foul KG ( PP5 IPP2 )
58.30 – Bron on the post then grab the rebound ( Dreb4 Nbdx4 EP3 )
59.12 – Bron at elbow with PP
100.05 – Bron at wing with PP then KG get ball so Bron try to go help but KG get foul first
102.13 – Bron on ball guard against tony allen. Tony attempt drive but lebron pick up so he pass to KG and bron double KG then tony cut get ball but get ball knock out ( PPD12EPPD4 )
102.55 – Lebron roam at paint and Allen hit corner 3pt
103.15 – Bron guard rondo but get screen by KG. Lebron get pass screen and go double rondo in post area. Rondo bad pass to KG near TOV. Them Allen drive layup on antawn ( PPD13 HPD7 EHPD4 )
104.14 – Rondo get ball ft line lebron pick him up. Rondo pass
104.48 – Bron roam at post see allen drive to basket so Lebron try to close out but tony allen offensive foul
105.45 – lebron in post see rondo drive so he close out to contest and rondo missed ( PP6 DCT7 )
106.50 – Lebron switch offball between tony to rondo. Shaq block shot out bound ( Celtic ball )
107.20 – Lebrom in post with tony while KG miss shot but rondo rebound. Rondo drive on parker missed
108.10 – Tony cut get ball so lebron contest at paint with shaq help. Tony get foul on a pass ( PP7 EPP4 DCT8 ) ( celtic ball )
108.45 – Allem drive layup on parker
109.12 – Lebron roam around wing post allen miss shot then rondo got rebound pass to allen at rim who lebron jump block shot ( PP8 EPP5 DCT8 ) ( Celtic ball )
109.57 – Tony get ball so bron pick up. Tony pass out. Allen attempt shot then lebron get rebound near the line so pass back. Ball loses JUMP ball ( Dreb5 NDbx 5) ( Celtic win jump ball )
111.00 – Lebron boxout tony for rebound ( Dreb6 Dbx 3)
111.16 – tony attempt fast break drive but lebron attempt steal make him pass to KG. Bad communication by bron and Vare so rondo cut to basket get ball then lay up ( PPD14IPPD4 )
112.40 – Bron with tony in post see perkin cut so he go on perkin but perkin let pass fly to rondo. Lebron close out in paint area so rondo pass. Lebron swith on tony off ball then get rebound ( D.reb7 NDbx 6 EP4 )
113.10 – Lebron in paint with tony see rondo drive so he contest shot but foul rondo ( PP9 IPP3 DCT9 )
116.20 – Lebron at ft line then attempt help in paint but Vare foul first
117.58 – Bron with rondo at 3pt line when PP missed shot, rondo foul Antawn for FTA
Q4 Defense
119.30 – Lebron try defend fast break. Contest Tony at rim but tony pass to rondo for a bucket ( PP10 DCT10 )
120.45 – Bron on PP off ball. Rondo pass get deflected ( Celtic ball )
121.10 – Lebron deny room for PP to get the ball. Rondo missed contested 3pt
121.48 – Rondo try outlet fastbreak pass but TOV
122.20 – Davis get out let fastbreak pass. Lebron not fast enout to contest so davis mad layup
123.30 – Lebron help hickson on tony at corner then go back to PP. Tony drive layup on Hickson ( HPD8 )
123.56 – Rondo bounce pass to davis for layup when bron is near top keys
125.00 – tony fast break layup. Bron not close for contest
125.40 – Lebron tight guard PP on ball make him loses handle but Davis drive to get ball pass out. PP get ball and bron contest 3pt make him miss ( PPD15-16 EPPD5 DCT11 )
126.45 – PP get bron so ball guard tight. PP pass out. Davis get ball post up Antawn then bron come help take ball away ( PPD17 EPPD6 HPD9 EHPD5 )
127.34 – Rondo pull up on parker when Lebron was with PP at wing
128.07 – Rondo drive get ball stole by Parker. Bron get the ball then go fast break
129.37 – Bron g=fight for position near paint with Wallace, then Wallace try rebound but push out
131.00 – Bron roam at FT line when Wallace miss shot Vare rebound
131.30 – tony get bounce pass from rondo in paint so Lebron contest block shot but MO foul tony
133.10 – Lebron in post when allen miss shot and KG get rebound on the other post. KG post up lebron see Rondo open so he off ball close out. Tony get ball then make tough layup ( OBD1 EOBD1 )
134.30 – Rondo fast break layup miss. Lebron boxout with Perkin for rebound but perkin foul Bron (FD9 )
135.23 – Perkin get ball in post open force vare to close out leave KG open so bron pick him up off ball then switch on Tony when Vare come back on KG ( OBD2 ) ( CELTIC BALL losesd ball foul on Antawn )
136.15 – Lebron fight position with PP then follow him to corner. Vare intercept the pass but get foul fot FTA
137.20 – PP get ball so bron close out force to pass then bron follow PP around. Allen get ball drive get shot block but rondo get ball bounce pass to PP who cut back door to bron. Bron try contest but fail ( PP11 IPP4 DCT12 )
138.16 – Bron at post with PP when KG miss shot but ball fall in rondo hand who make the shot
141.40 – Perkin foul parker in transition
142.10 – Bron in post when allen shot 3pt miss
143.57 – Bron foul tony to get ball
146.03 – Mo fpoul rondo for ball
END

RESUME of LEBRON 2010 vs celtic Game 4
Total Possession of play when lebron was on the floor – 85

Playmaking
-DTOs ( Defender take out ) - 70
-EDTOs ( Extra defender taken out ) - 39
- ADAs ( Additional Defenders Affected ) - 11
-Double - 12
-Triple - 2
-Création - 17
~ R’Creation ( Rim ) - 7
- P’Creation ( Prerimeter ) - 10
-SC ( Screen ) - 2
- EPDL( Elite pass delivery ) - 9
- RPDL ( Regular pass delivery ) - 20
- BRDL ( Bad pass delivery ) – 5
- BB ( Bring ball up ) - 21
Scoring
-FGA - 18
-FGM - 7
-M ( midrange ) – 4 ( 2/4 )
-P ( Post shot ) – 1 ( 1/1 )
-R ( Rim : lay up / dunk ) – 8 ( 4/8 )
-T ( 3pt ) – 5 ( 0/5 )
-PB ( Putback ) - 0
-FTA - 11
- FTM - 8
-OCT ( Offensive Contest ) - 15
-OUCT ( Offensive Uncontested ) - 3
Rebound
-O-Reb ( offensive Rebound ) - 1
-*Obx ( Offensive Box Out for Oreb ) -0
-*Nobx ( Non offensive Boxout Oreb) - 1
- D-reb ( defensive Rebound ) - 7
- Dbx ( defensive box out for Dreb ) - 3
- Ndox ( non defensive box out ) – 6
- EP ( Empty paint ) - 4
Defense
-PPs ( Primary Protection ) - 12
- EPP - 5
- IPP - 4
- PPDs ( Primary Perimeter defendings ) - 17
– EPPD - 6
- IPPD - 4
- DCT ( Defensive contest ) - 12
- NDCT ( non contest ) - 0
- HPD ( help defense ) – 9
- EHPD – 5
- IHPD - 0
- OBD ( Offball defense against advantageous position ) – 2
- EOBD - 1
- IOBD - 0

That's Lebron. Now Jordan's two best series games..

Spoiler:

HI GUYS. This MJ Game 2 in 1991 final against LAKERS Offense only

Watch on YouTube

Playmaking
-DTOs ( Defender take out )
-EDTOs ( EXTRA defender taken out )
-Double
-Triple
- ADAs ( additional defender affected )
-Création ~ R’Creation ( Rim )/ P’Creation ( Prerimeter )
-SC ( Screen assist ) ( GHOST SCREEN DO NOT COUNT )
- EPDL( Elite pass delivery ) for creation or when the defense is attach on his presence
- RPDL ( Regular pass delivery ) for creation or when the defense is attach on his presence
- BRDL ( Bad pass delivery ) for creation or when the defense is attach on his presence
Scoring
-FGA
-FGM
-M ( midrange )
-P ( Post play )
-R ( Rim : lay up / dunk )
-T ( 3pt )
-PB ( Putback )
-FTA + FTM
-OCT ( Offensive Contest )
-OUCT ( Offensive Uncontested )
- FD ( Foul draw by defender )
( P - Possession. If your team get the Oreb or foul and your team get control of the ball it will be counted as same possession )
Q1
P’ 1 - 0:52 - MJ get the ball at 3ptline from Pipen then pass out to Paxson on top keys MJ run off ball to the paint. Paxson give back to pipen who pump fake for midrange missed. Grant get oreb pass to Pipen who pass to Paxson for a drive floater
P’ 2 - 1:40 - MJ brings ball up to top key then bill come screen. MJ drive nearly get double but foul Offensive offball ( BB1 )
P’ 3 - 2:30 - MJ gets ball on top keys, reset back to Pippen. Pippen drive see double pass back to MJ, MJ see Grant cutting off to the elbow and see defender not rotating sp he pass to Grant for a miss shot ( DTOs1 P’Creation1 RPDL1 )
P’ 4 - 2:54 - MJ bring ball up pass to Bill on the post. Then cut in paint but bill get double and foul ( BULLS ball ) ( BB2 )
P’ 4 -3.19 – MJ on shoer corner run out to 3pt line while Pipen make great pass for bill for a dunk
P’ 5 - 3:42 - MJ bring ball up Grant make ghost screen then roll to the paint and Bill come set another screen so there 2 defender facing MJ leaving Grant open on right wing. So MJ pass to Grant for basket. (BB3 DTO2-3 ADAs1 R’Creation1 RPDL2 )
P’ 6 - 4:14 - MJ bring ball up to the corner so Grant come make soft screen then back in paint so MJ get double, pass to Grant but bad pass TOV ( BB4 Double1 BPDL1 )
P’ 7 - 4:25 – Pipen steal in transition pass to MJ at half court who pass drive to FT line and pass to Bill in paint ( DTOs4 R’Creation2 RPDL3 )
P’ 8 - 5:52 - MJ Move off ball to top keys and get the ball from Grant, backing down Scott and shoot a fade away ( FGA1 FGM1 M1 OCT1 )
P’ 9 - 6:25 - MJ outlet pass to Paxson in transition and he get ball back on top of key. See Pipen cut to the rim so He try a lob pass ( Too low ) so pipen Missed but Bill Clean up
P’ 10 - 8:17 -MJ get ball at 3pt line get double ao he dribble around then pass to Grant in Paont for a lay up ( Double2 DTO5-6 EDTOs1 EPDL1 R’Creation3 )
P’ 11 - 10:20 - MJ get ball see Bill posting so he pass and let bill Create FAIL
P’ 12 - 11:05 – MJ Bring ball up pass to pipen top keys then off ball screen for Paxson but too late so paxson defender stay tight. MJ on post when paxson create and pass to Grant ( BB5 )
P’ 13 - 11:48 - MJ bring ball up pass to Paxson in transition for a 3pt ( BB6 DTOs7 RPDL4 )
P’ 14 - 12:14 - MJ get ball from pipen and pass to paxson top keys. Paxson pass to pipen who post drive split thru double for layup
P’ 15 - 14:20 - MJ bring ball up pass to cliff then run off ball around to the paint ( BB7 )
P’ 16 - 14:57 - MJ brings ball to the elbow see double team coming so he pass to bill for layup. ( DTOs8-9 EDTOs2 R’Creation4 RPDL5)
P’ 17 - 16:20 - MJ bring ball up and drive get double in the post with another defender in his lane so he pass to Bill ( BAD PASS Could be Creation ). Bill pass to pipen for midrange Missed. MJ get Oreb try a midrange MISSED ( BB8 Double3 DTOs8-9-10 EDTOs2 ADAs2 BPDL2 FGA2 M2 OCT2 )
P’ 18 - 17:14 - MJ brings ball up Bill screen and POP at the FT line while MJ dribble to elbow and pass to Grant in paint. ( BB9 DTOs10-11 EDTOs3 RPDL6 )
P’ 19 - 18:00 - MJ get ball pass to bill who try post up but TOV
P’ 20 - 18:20 - MJ bring ball up, pass to Pippen on top keys then cut to the other side Post ( BB10 )
Q2
P’ 21 - 27:48 – MJ post up off ball try to get the ball but get intercepted ( BULLS ball )
P’ 21 -28.10 - MJ on short corner posting off ball then he get the ball Magic come double so MJ pass to cutting BJ who missed layup ( Double4 DTOs12-13 EDTOs4 RPDL7 )
P 22 – 29.34 – MJ get ball then pass to Pippen to create
P’ 23 - 30:10 - MJ on top of key, pass to Armstrong. Get ball back and try a 3pt MISSED ( FGA3 T1 OCT3 )
P’ 24 - 31:29 - MJ drives see 2 extra defender on the lane with one of them being screen by Bill so he kick to paxson for 3pt ( DTOs14-15-16 EDTOs5 ADAs3 P’Creation2 RPDL8 )
P’ 25 - 31:57 – Grant steal pass to MJ in transition MJ bullet pass thru magic for Grant who loses the ball ( DTOs17 RPDL9 )
P’ 26 - 32:14 - MJ Bring ball up pass to paxson and cut in paint but decide to go off at 3pt. pipen get double pass op wide open MJ who drive lay up ( BB11 FGA4 R1 FGM2 OCT4 )
P’ 27 - 32:50 - Pippen bounce pass to MJ in transion for open lay uo ( FGA5 FGM3 R2 OUCT1 )
P’ 28 - 33:46 - Bill handoff to MJ, drive then pull-up at FT line for basket. ( FGA6 M3 FGM4 OCT5 )
P’ 29 - 35:14 - Grant to MJ near elbow, MJ then drive post up a bit then spin move for a shot. ( FGA7 FGM5 P1 OUCT2 )
P’ 30 - 36:15 - MJ bring ball up then pass to pipen top keys. Pippen pass to bill for a shot missed ( BB12 )
P’ 31 - 36:52 - MJ bring ball up pass to Pippen who fake drive bring 3 defender on him and pass to paxson
P’ 32 - 38:35 – Mj bring ball up from inbound reset with paxson then post up scoot fake shot bring AC green to come contest so MJ pass to grant for open dunk ( BB13 DTOs18-19 EDTOs6 EPDL2 R’Creation5 )
Q3
P’ 32 - 40:32 - MJ bring ball up in transition bullet pass to Paxson. Mj get it back give to bill to create for himself at post
P’ 33 - 41:00 – MJ at the elbow off ball when Pippen get the ball and pass to grant for layup
P’ 34 – 41.27 – Pippen bring ball up pass to MJ. MJ pass to Grant posting then cut in paint
P’ 35 - 41:56 - MJ pass to Pippen fastbreak but Pippen travel
P’36 - 43.06 – MJ in the corner when PIPPEN work in the paint
P’ 37 - 43:42 – MJ bring ball drive kick to Grant open at 3pt :NONE CREATION cause Grant isn’t a shooter so they willing to leave him open there ( BB14 DTOs20-21 EDTOs7 RPDL10 )
P’ 38 - 44:13 – MJ get ball pass back to PIPPEN then cut to the other side on the elbow. He get the ball for a jumper ( FGA8 FGM6 M4 OCT7 )
P’ 39 - 44:38 – MJ bring ball up fast break bounce pass to Pippen who gets fouled. ( BB15 DTOs22-23 EDTOs8 EPDL3 R’Creation6 ) ( BULLS ball with FT )
P39 – 46.09 – MJ posting get foul. Next play Paxson bouce pass to Bill for a dunk ( FD1 )
P’ 40 – 47.50 - MJ Bring ball up pass to Paxson. Get ball back pump fake drive lay up ( BB16 FGA9 FGM7 R3 OCT8 )
P’ 41 - 48:14 - MJ bring ball up pass to Bill in post ( BB17 )
P’ 42 - 48:50 - MJ get ball half court drive pull up mid range ( FGA10 FGM8 M5 OCT9 )
P’ 43 - 49:56 – MJ off ball cut to post get the ball and get doubled in post, fake shot and pass to paxson shoot ( DTOs24-25 EDTOs9 P’Creation3 Double5 EPDL4 )
P’ 44- 50:50 - MJ get ball at post and hit a turnaround fade away ( FGA11 FGM9 P2 OCT10 )
P’ 45 - 52:04 - MJ bringing ball up Blow by paxson for a pull up and ONE ( BB18 FGA12 FGM10 M6 OUCT2 FD2 FTA1 FTM1 )
P’ 46 - 59:23 - MJ Cut off ball around the court and get ball at elbow drive post up get double and with anoth defender on weak side he pass to paxson for long 2pt ( Double6 EDTOs26-27-28 EDTOs10-11 P’Creation4 EPDL5 )
P’ 47 - 1:00:41 - MJ recieves ball in low-post GET FOUL ( FD3 FTA2-3 FTM2 ) ( Pippen Oreb Bull ball )
P’47 - 101.40 -MJ gets ball from top of key and drive split defender for a lay up ( FGA13 FGM11 R4 OCT11 )
P’ 48 - 1:02:46 - MJ get ball on wing drive see double team so he jump pass to open pippen for a lay up ( DTOs29-30-31 EDTOs12 ADAs4 P’Creation5 RPDL11 )
Q4
P’ 49 - 1:04:43 - MJ get ball in the post get double pass to Grant cutting but sam perkins was in the paints to catch grant to deny his shot ( Double6 DTOs32-33 EDTOs13 RPDL12 )
P’50 - 104.57 – Pippen get Dreb and run the fastbreak with Grant. Pippen attempt drive but missed the layup
P’ 51 - 1:06:54 - MJ brings ball up drive to elbow side step midrange ( BB19 FGA14 FGM12 M7 OCT12 )
P’ 52 - 1:08:16 - MJ brings ball up, dribbles around the top keys and FT line but get FOUL CALL WITH illegal defense ( BB20 FD4 FTA4 FTM3 ) ( Bull ball )
P’ 52 -110.00 - Pippen finds MJ, dribbles to short corner then pull up midrange ( FGA15 FGM13 M8 OCT13 )
P’ 53 - 1:10:35 - Michael brings it up then lop to pippen. ( BB21 DTOs34 R’Creation7 EPDL6 )
P’ 54 - 1:11:16 - MJ reset ball with pippen on top keys then post up bring 3 defender around so he jump pass to open Pippen ( DTOs35-36-37 EDTOs14-15 P’Creation6 RPDL13 )
P’ 55 - 1:11:53 - MJ bring up the ball to top keys then pass to grant. Grant drive pass back to Jordan. So Jordan drive and layup ( BB22 FGA16 FGM14 R5 5OUCT3 )
P’ 56 - 1:14:03 - MJ on top of key, get the ball then go post up. Spin move fade but MISSED ( FGA17 P3 OCT14 )
P’ 57 - 1:15:34 – PIPPEN bring ball up pass to MJ half court MJ rest with pippen. MJ get double top keys pass back to Pippen. Pippen attempt drive see double so kick to MJ who drive pull up from FT line ( Double 7 FGA18 FGM15 M9 OCT 15 )
P’ 58 - 1:16:16 - MJ get ball at logo dribble to top keys wit hmagic on him. Worthy come help so MJ pass to open pippen at 3pt line cause bad rotation by divac who choose to close the paint instead on roaming near pippen. Bad pass from MJ make Pippen loses time to get the ball and Pippen drive TOV ( DTOs38-39 EDTOs16 BPDL3 )
P’ 59 - 1:17:00 - MJ finds wide open Grant in corner. Grant get double pass to pippen for a shot
P’ 60 - 1:17:40 - MJ get the ball at the logo then get double. He pullet pass to Grant at the rim for a pump fake and dunk ( Double8 DTOs40-41 EDTOs17 R’Creation8 EPDL7 )
P’ 61 - 1:17:59 – Bulls stole the ball. Pippen pass to MJ. Mj pass back and go to wing 3pt line. Pippen pump fake drive layup

RESUME Game 2 MJ 1991 offensively
Total Possession when MJ was in the floor – 61
Total Possession of play MJ have action both on/off ball – 58
Total Possession of play MJ didn’t affect or didn’t have the opportunity to affect – 3
Playmaking
-DTOs - 41
-EDTOs – 17
- ADAs – 4
-Double - 8
-Triple - 0
-Création - 14
~ R’Creation ( Rim ) - 8
- P’Creation ( Prerimeter ) - 6
-SC ( Screen ) - 0
- EPDL( Elite pass delivery ) - 7
- RPDL ( Regular pass delivery ) - 13
- BRDL ( Bad pass delivery ) – 3
- BB ( Bring ball up ) - 22
Scoring
-FGA - 18
-FGM - 15
-M ( midrange ) – 9 ( 8/9 )
-P ( Post play ) – 3 ( 2/3 )
-R ( Rim : lay up / dunk ) – 5 ( 5/5 )
-T ( 3pt ) – 1 ( 0/1 )
-PB ( Putback ) – 0
-FTA - 4
+ FTM – 3
-OCT ( Offensive Contest ) - 15
-OUCT ( Offensive Uncontested ) - 3
- FD ( Foul draw by defender ) - 4

Spoiler:

In this game, we see how good Jordan is on both ends of the floor, as this is his peak season.

This is also for something newer, tracking how Jordan did in isolation as scorer on-ball. Also how much they initiated the play (by bringing ball up, to start it off, or outlet pass, stealing ball to initiate transition play, etc), also how they did in tough coverage (doubled or tripled).
Reason for doing this is due to elpolo_14 mentioning how Jordan had these advantages here (Will track Steph later to compare): viewtopic.php?p=118963162#p118963162

Game link -

Watch on YouTube

Here is what we will be tracking:
Playmaking -
-DTOs ( Defender taken out)
-EDTOs ( Extra defender taken out )
-Double
BB ( BRING Ball up )
-Création ~ R’Creation ( Rim )/ P’Creation ( Prerimeter )
-SC ( Screen assist ) ( GHOST SCREEN DO NOT COUNT )
EPDL( Elite pass delivery ) for creation or when the defense is attach on his presence
- RPDL ( Regular pass delivery ) for creation or when the defense is attach on his presence
- BRDL ( Bad pass delivery ) for creation or when the defense is attach on his presence
Scoring -
-M (mid-range)
-P (post play)
-R (rim)
-T (3pt)
-PB (putback)
OCT (offensive contested)
OUCT (offensive uncontested)
FD (foul drawn )
Offensive rebounding -
OBX (offensue boxout)
NOBX (non offensive boxout)

Defense -
-PPs – EPP/IPP ( Primary Protection ) ( E – effective / I – Ineffective )
- PPDs – EPPD/IPPD ( Primary Perimeter defendings ) ( E – effective / I – Ineffective )
- DCT ( Defensive contest )
- NDCT ( non contest )
- HPD ( help defense ) – EHPD/IHPD ( E – effective / I – Ineffective )
DBX (defensive boxout)
NDBX (non-defensive boxout)

For in iso: ISO M 1/1 as example
For in tough coverage: Doubled 1 DTO
For play initiator: IN


Offense -

Possession 1 - 1:46 - Jordan finds ball top of key, to Pippen driving to draw foul.
Possession 2 - 3:20 - Pippen initiate play by bringing ball up, to Jordan right wing, draw two defenders, pass to Cartwright, and back, Jordan pass to Cartwright making fadeaway. (Jordan doubled 2 DTOs, 1 EDTO. Jordan - 3 DTOs, 1 EDTO, 1 creation,1x doubled, 1 RPDL)
Possession 3 - 3:50 - Pippen again initiate ball and Jordan scores deep mid-range jumper. (Jordan ISO 1/1 M. Jordan - 1/1 M)
Possession 4 - 4:24 - Pippen pass to Jordan after bringing ball up, ball to Paxson to Grant, Jordan finds himself open losing his man off-ball, but Grant bad decision making. (Jordan - 4 DTOs)
Possession 5 - 4:58 - Jordan misses wide-open one legged jumper from the corner. (Jordan - 1/2 M)
Possession 6 - 5:17 - Jordan with ball in half-court, gets a pass to Cartwright missing a one-handed shot . (Jordan - 6 DTOs, 2 EDTOs, 2 RPDL)
Possession 7 - 5:31 - Jordan initiate offense with ball brought up, handoff to Paxson, moves down to elbow,, as Magic header into out of bounds. (Jordan - 1 BB, 1 IN)
Possession 8 - 6:29 - Jordan bring up ball initiating offense, pass to Pippen. (Jordan - 2 BB, 2 IN)
Possession 9 - 6:54 - As Grant gets pass Jordan cuts behind him, Jordan in ISO misses semi-open mid range shot. (Jordan ISO 1/2 M. Jordan - 1/3 M).
Possession 10 - 7:13 - Jordan bring up ball to initiate offense, nice hezi top of key to beat his man blow by to get a nice dunk. (Jordan - 3 BB, 3 IN, 1/1 R, 7 DTOs)
Possession 11 - 7:37 - Jordan gets ball on left wing, post-up and draws foul. Jordan makes 1 FT. (Jordan ISO 1 FD. Jordan - 1 FD)
Possession 12 - 10:18 - Jordan finds ball in left wing moving out, beats his man with blow by for another dunk. (Jordan ISO 1/1 R, Jordan - 2/2 R, 8 DTOs)
Possession 13 - 10:52 - Jordan finds ball in key, goes through a crowded paint missing, shot, boxes out for the rebound, and separates himself to make a close mid-range shot. (Jordan - 2x doubled, 2/3 R, 2/4 M, 1 OBX)
Possession 14 - 11:10 - Jordan gets ball on logo, goes to right elbow doubled pass to Cartwight losing it. Jordan heads back to top of key where Grant gives it to him, Jordan finds Pippen in tight window, who gets a dunk. (Jordan doubled 4 DTOs, 2 EDTOs. Jordan - 2 creation, 1 BPDL, 3 RPDL, 3x doubled, 11 DTOs, 3 EDTOs)
Possession 15 - 11:47 - Jordan gets ball in half-court, good pass delivery to Pippen but shot blocked.
Jordan then gets ball in left wing, with DIvac on him and then switch, Jordan with pass mid-air to Paxson who hits the shot. (Jordan - 3 creation, 1 EPDL, 12 DTOs)
Possession 16 - 13:37 - Jordan initiate offense with deep pass to Pippen. (Jordan - 4 IN)
Possession 17 - 14:43 - Jordan in transition gets ball from Pippen, goes in strong for a dunk. (Jordan -3/4 R)
Possession 18 - 16:36 - Jordan bring up ball pass to Pippen going up and around his man for layup. (Jordan - 5 IN, 4 BB, 4 creation, 4 RPDL)
Possession 19 - 17:35 - Jordan gets ball, move around to hit mid-range shot in ISO. (Jordan ISO 2/3 M, Jordan - 3/5 M)
Possession 20 - 19:20 - Jordan initiate offense, goes on ISO vs Scott and makes another mid-range jumper. (Jordan ISO 3/4 M. Jordan - 6 IN, 5 BB, 4/6 M)
Possession 21 - 19:49 - Jordan brings up ball, double teamed and great pass to inside to Grant making easy layup. (Jordan doubled 6 DTOs 3 EDTOs. Jordan - 5 creation, 2 EPDL, 14 DTOs, 4 EDTOs, 5x doubled)
START OF 2Q
Possession 22 - 21:15 - Jordan bring up ball, ball to Levingston as he finds himself open for ball by Hopson. He misses a mid-range shot. (Jordan ISO 3/5 M. Jordan - 7 IN, 6 BB, 4/7 M)
Possession 23 - 22:39 - Jordan gets ball left wing, drive stopped by Divac, tries to make a hezi but commits turnover as Divac steals ball from him.
Possession 24 - 23:22 - Jordan gets ball on top of key, post up his man, as triple team come he pass to Perdue for the dunk. (Jordan doubled 9 DTOs 5 EDTOs. Jordan - 6 creation, 5 RPDL, 17 DTOs, 6 EDTOs, 6x doubled)
Possession 25 - 23:55 - Jordan brings ball up, pass to Levingston, and to Cartwright for missed 3. (Jordan - 8 IN, 7 BB)
Possession 26 - 24:22 - Jordan brings ball up and makes bad pass for turnover. (Jordan - 9 IN, 8 BB, 2 BPDL)
Possession 27 - 25:43 - Jordan brings ball up, pass to Craig who scores clean mid-range. (Jordan - 10 IN, 9 BB, 7 creation, 19 DTOs, 7 EDTOs)
Possession 28 - 26:37 - Jordan brings ball up again, tries to get into paint, but bad pass by Jordan knocked away. (Jordan doubled 11 DTOs 6 EDTOs. Jordan - 11 IN, 10 BB, 21 DTOs, 8 EDTOs, 3 BPDL, 7x doubled)
Possession 29 - 27:31 - Jordan brings ball up to start transition play, he can't decelerate and commits turnover. (Jordan - 12 IN, 11 BB)
28:03 - Jordan off
33:49 - Jordan on
Possession 30 - 34:30 - Jordan gets ball from Pippen, pass to Pippen trying to find his way inside, comes back to find ball, pass mid-air to B.J, to Pippen missing tough shot.
Possession 31 - 36:29 - Jordan finds himself open for a low post turnaround fadeaway with the foul drawn. Jordan makes 1 FT.(Jordan - 0/1 P, 2 FD)
Possession 32 - 39:33 - Jordan gets ball in transition, pass back to B.J, and back to Jordan for wide open dunk for 2 on 1 play. (Jordan - 4/5 R)
Possession 33 - 40:10 - Jordan gets ball on left wing, hezi and loses ball tipped away 1 on 1.
Possession 34 - 42:11 - Jordan brings up ball, gets into key and pass to Armstrong missing wide open 3. (Jordan - 13 IN, 12 BB, 8 creation, 23 DTOs, 9 EDTOs, 5 RPDL)
Possession 35 - 44:15 - Jordan brings up ball, pass it to Armstrong hitting 3 over Magic. (Jordan - 14 IN, 13 BB, 9 creation, 24 DTOs, 6 RPDL)
Possession 36 - 46:40 - Jordan hand-off to Pippen in Lakers side of court.
START OF 3Q
Possession 37 - 50:25 - Jordan doubled on right block, gets to the elbow and draws a foul. Jordan makes both FTs. (Jordan - 3 FD)
Possession 38 - 51:47 - Jordan on top of key, gets doubled then pass to Grant who misses shot. (Jordan doubled 13 DTOs 7 EDTOs. Jordan - 26 DTOs, 10 EDTOs, 7 RPDL, 8x doubled)
Possession 39 - 52:06 - Jordan bring up ball to left wing, passing to Cartwright in the corner for a 3. (Jordan - 28 DTOs, 11 EDTOs, 10 creation, 8 RPDL)
Possession 40 - 53:32 - Jordan misses a pull-up jumper. (Jordan - 4/8 M)
Possession 41 - 53:59 - Jordan bring up ball, two men switch onto him multiple time, he goes up for layup and pass to Paxson. Then Jordan boxout for offensive rebound for Grant putback. (Jordan - 15 IN, 14 BB, 2 OBX)
Possession 42 - 55:38 - Jordan post up, doubled and to Pippen, who miss shot. (Jordan doubled 15 DTOs 8 EDTOs. Jordan - 30 DTOs, 12 EDTOs, 11 creation, 3 EPDL, 9x doubled)
Possession 43 - 56:07 - Jordan bring up ball, hezi at the top of the key, doubled and passes to Paxson for a missed 3. (Jordan doubled 17 DTOs 9 EDTOs. Jordan - 32 DTOS, 13 EDTOs, 12 creation, 9 RPDL, 12 creation, 10x doubled)
Possession 44 - 56:30 - Jordan ball top of key, pass to Paxson.
Possession 45 - 57:09 - Jordan bring up ball, pass to Cartwright and back, gets to top of key with window pass to Pippen. Then, Jordan gets ball and doubled, to Paxson, to Pippen getting ball for dunk. (Jordan doubled 19 DTOs 10 EDTOs. Jordan - 36 DTOs, 15 EDTOs, 10 RPDL, 4 EPDL, 11x doubled, 16 IN, 15 BB)
Possession 46 - 59:08 - Jordan brings up ball, gets to corner pass to Cartwight moves to left wing as Pippen gets it to Jordan. Jordan hits a 3 pointer in iso. (Jordan ISO 1/1 T. Jordan - 17 IN, 16 BB, 1/1 T)
Possession 47 - 59:47 - Jordan brings up ball drives in crowded area and gets turnover. (Jordan - 18 IN, 17 BB)
Possession 48 - 1:00:38 - Jordan gets into post, shot blocked by Divac.
1:01:20 - Jordan off
1:08:10 - Jordan on
Possession 49 - 1:08:27 - Jordan brings up ball, handoff to Paxson, then back to Jordan as he kicks it to Paxson on the corner, he bricks. (Jordan - 19 IN, 18 BB)
START OF 4Q
Possession 50 - 1:13:23 - Jordan gets ball spins and hits post shot in the middle. (Jordan - 1/2 P)
Possession 51 - 1:13:55 - Jordan using his off-ball movement to get out of double, he gets inside and handoff to Levingston making shot. (Jordan - 13 creation, 11 RPDL)
Possession 52 - 1:14:16 - Jordan in transition starts it off passes to Armstrong going hard for the layup. (Jordan - 14 creation, 12 RPDL, 37 DTOs, 20 IN)
Possession 53 - 1:15:52 - Jordan brings up ball, gets into isolation and makes a mid-range shot. (Jordan ISO 4/6 M. Jordan - 21 IN, 19 BB, 5/9 M)
Possession 54 - 1:16:24 - Jordan brings up ball makes a mid-range shot in transition. (Jordan - 22 IN, 20 BB, 6/10 M)
Possession 55 - 1:17:23 - Jordan brings up ball, gets into the right corner and makes a pass. (Jordan - 23 IN, 21 BB)
Possession 56 - 1:18:12 - Jordan brings up ball, draws foul in the key. Then Jordan gets ball in key, pulls-up mid-range and miss, gets ball back to him, gets to the block and draws another foul. Jordan then looks for ball in left elbow, drives and gets blocked by Divac. (Jordan - 5 FD, 6/11 M)
Possession 57 - 1:20:50 - Jordan gets ball from Pippen on log, makes mid-range jumper. (Jordan - 7/12 M)
Possession 58 - 1:21:18 - Jordan bring up ball, pass to Pippen getting it to B.J with bad pass delivery. (Jordan - 24 IN, 22 BB)
Possession 59 - 1:21:42 - Jordan bring up ball, pass to Hodges and he misses. (Jordan - 25 IN, 23 BB, 15 creation, 39 DTOs, 16 EDTOs)
Possession 60 - 1:23:00 - Jordan gets in paint tripled, finger roll pass to Grant going for easy dunk. (Jordan doubled 22 DTOs 12 EDTOs. Jordan - 16 creation, 42 DTOs, 18 EDTOs, 12x doubled)
Possession 61 - 1:23:40 - Jordan gets ball and plays 1v1 vs Scott, with hezi in short corner, makes short fadeaway in post. Jordan makes his FT. (Jordan ISO 1/1 P, 2 FD. Jordan - 6 FD, 2/3 P)
Possession 62 - 1:25:56 - Jordan gets ball left wing, drive and pass to Paxson and he misses. (Jordan - 17 creation, 44 DTOs, 19 EDTOs)
Possession 63 - 1:27:30 - Jordan gets ball and drive from the corner, misses reverse layup fouled. Jordan makes both FTs. (Jordan - 7 FD, 3/5 R)
Possession 64 - 1:31:02 - Jordan doubled gets ball top of key pass to Paxson missing a shot. (Jordan doubled 24 DTOs 13 EDTOs. Jordan - 18 creation, 46 DTOs, 20 EDTOs, 13x doubled)
Possession 65 - 1:34:57 - Jordan gets ball, again in iso with Scott, he misses mid-range. (Jordan ISO 4/7 M. Jordan - 7/13 M)
Possession 66 - 1:43:13 - Jordan gets ball and drives bounces ball of a Laker leg. Then, Jordan gets ball inbounded to him left wing, crossover, and Jordan misses another game winning shot. (Jordan ISO 4/8 M. Jordan - 7/14 M)
END OF GAME

Final tally -
In ISO: 4/8 M, 1/1 T, 1/1 P, 1/1 R
In tough coverage: 24 DTOs, 13 EDTOs
Initiating possession count: 25

Scoring:
7/14 M
2/3 P
1/1 T
3/5 R
7 FD

Playmaking:
18 creation
46 DTOs
20 EDTOs
13x doubled
15 RPDL
5 EPDL
3 BPDL

Ball-handling and offensive rebounding:
3 OBX
23 BB





Defense -
Possession 1 - 0:55 - Jordan on Magic top of key, gets past screen, Magic pass to Perkins as Jordan is roaming.
Then, Jordan facing Magic who post-up, no-look pass to Worthy who easily makes layup over Jordan. (Jordan - 1 PP, 1 IPP, 1 NDCT)
Possession 2 - 3:05 - Jordan on Magic, who pass to Divac as he roams again looking for steal.
Possession 3 - 3:40 - Magic running bringing ball up to right wing, gets ball to Worthy missing post shot.
Possession 4 - 4:04 - Magic bring up ball to top of key, pass to Scott, as Jordan falls into the paint.
Possession 5 - 4:40 - Jordan not on Magic off-ball advantageous position, so he leaves Magic for open 3 missed. (Jordan - 1 PPD, 1 IPPD, 2 NDCT)
Possession 6 - 5:02 - Jordan on Magic, passing to Worthy airballing with Jordan ball-watching.
Possession 7 - 7:27 - Jordan picks up Magic at half-court, Magic finds open window to Worthy.
Possession 8 - 10:00 - Jordan on Magic who pass to Perkins, taking out 3-4 defenders as Worthy hits his shot, while Jordan walk to rim.
Possession 9 - 10:30 - Jordan on Magic in right wing, jumps for pass-fake, passing to Perkins, as he walks into key, ball-watching. (Jordan - 2 PPD)
Possession 10 - 11:10 - Jordan picks up Magic, who gets it to Perkins as Jordan heads to the key, as Perkins hits a fadeaway.
Possession 11 - 12:23 - Jordan on Magic in half-court, and to Perkins, follows Magic to weakside, stonewalls him, gets some help, as Magic hits nice open pass to Perkins for 3. (Jordan - 3 PPD)
Possession 12 - 13:19 - Worthy misses contested fadeaway over Jordan, then Jordan doesn't contest DIvac after he gets rebound off of missed shots, and he stays in paint as Perkins makes jumper mid range. (Jordan - 4 PPD, 1 EPPD, 2 PP, 2 IPP, 1 DCT, 3 NDCT)
Possession 13 - 14:18 - Jordan on Magic top of key, pass deflected by Paxson.
Possession 14 - 14:59 - Jordan on Magic again as he gets past screen. Magic pass to Perkins who draws the foul.
Possession 15 - 16:15 - Jordan on Magic top of key, to Perkins as Jordan follows Magic. Magic goes into the middle missing the hook-shot over Jordan non-contest. (Jordan - 3 PP, 4 NDCT)
Possession 16 - 16:45 - Magic bring up ball with Jordan on him, Magic draws foul in paint. (Jordan - 4 PP, 3 IPP)
Possession 17 - 17:48 - Magic bring up ball, Jordan on him, to Perkins and back, back to Perkins as Jordan move inside, Grant gets loose ball foul. Jordan gets board. (Jordan - 1 NDBX)
Possession 18 - 19:30 - Magic on Jordan, and as defender goes to double him he makes a good read to Perkins for a 3.
START OF 2Q
Possession 19 - 21:43 - Jordan pump faked by Divac, his teammate covers for him, and he fouls Divac (not Jordan) (Jordan - 5 PP, 4 IPP, 1 HPD, 1 IHPD)
Possession 20 - 22:58 - Jordan on Magic, pass to Worthy as Jordan ball-watches, Worthy fakes out his man to get a shot off.
Possession 21 - 23:47 - Jordan on Magic, Magic pass to Worthy, Jordan here goes for block but faked out for drive, Worthy makes shot from deep post. (Jordan - 5 PPD, 2 IPPD, 2 DCT)
Possession 22 - 24:15 - Worthy gets ball, blows by Jordan for layup. (Jordan - 6 PPD, 3 IPPD)
Possession 23 - 24:23 - Jordan picks up Magic on the perimeter, Magic hits a no-look pass to Worthy who misses.
Possession 24 - 26:01 - Jordan on Magic, then passes to Worthy who loses ball as it slips.
Possession 25 - 27:15 - Jordan on Magic again, pass to Worthy missing turnaround fadeaway, Jordan gets rebound non-boxout. (Jordan - 2 NDBX)
28:03 - Jordan off
33:49 - Jordan on
Possession 26 - 35:06 - Jordan on Magic, pass to Worthy getting blocked by Levingston.
Possession 27 - 35:27 - Jordan goes inside to gamble for block, but it was a pass by Magic. Jordan follows Magic around, but he drives with his teammates covering for him. (Jordan - 6 PP, 5 IPP, 3 DCT)
Possession 28 - 38:38 - Jordan full-court press onto Magic but he passes and rotates onto Divac off-ball, Divac back to Magic, Magic drives with Jordan there and he gets it to Divac, to Magic as Pippen blocks him.
Possession 29 - 39:48 - Jordan on Magic top of key, he passes to Drew and back, to Wrthy, to Divac going inside for layup.
Possession 30 - 40:15 - Jordan on Magic with deep pass, to Scott as Jordan ball-watches.
Possession 31 - 42:10 - Jordan gets uncontested rebound. (Jordan - 3 NDBX)
Possession 32 - 42:24 - Jordan gets blown by Magic, covered by his teammates and TO commited. (Jordan - 7 PPD, 4 IPPD)
Possession 33 - 42:48 - Jordan on Magic bringing up ball, pass to Perkins, Jordan tries denying Magic ball as he gets it, pass to Worthy missing, Jordan with help defense on Scott. (Jordan - 8 PPD, 2 EPPD, 2 HPD)
Possession 34 - 44:50 - Jordan on Magic instantly drawing the foul after turnaround. (Jordan - 9 PPD, 5 IPPD)
Possession 35 - 49:00 - Jordan gets a steal off Magic full-court outlet at end of 2nd quarter. (Jordan - 10 PPD, 3 EPPD)
START OF 3Q
Possession 36 - 51:17 - Jordan full-court press Magic then get back to following Magic to top of key, pass to Cooper.
Possession 37 - 52:00 - Jordan lets Divac go in for an easy layup, assisted by Magic. (Jordan - 7 PP, 6 IPP, 5 NDCT)
Possession 28 - 52:24 - Jordan fronts Magic, pass to Scott who draws the foul.
Possession 29 - 53:37 - Jordan on Magic, pass to Worthy and back, Magic pass back to Worthy.
Possession 30 - 54:29 - Jordan on Magic looking for post-up, as he is doubled pass to Divac, and back, back to Divac who draws a foul.
Possession 31 - 55:53 - Jordan on Magic, to Worthy and to Divac who Pippen denies ball.
Possession 32 - 56:16 - Jordan block off of Perkins, and then Worthy makes easy layup over Jordan. (Jordan - 8 PP, 1 EPP, 6 NDCT)
Possession 33 - 56:53 - Jordan on Magic, pass to Perkins and back, he backs down Jordan and finds Divac but pass hit rim, Jordan gets ball. (Jordan - 4 NDBX)
Possession 34 - 58:33 - Jordan on Magic top of key, passing to Cooper and Jordan switching onto Worthy off-ball, Worthy gets it and pass to Magic making shot clock buzzer.
Possession 35 - 59:30 - Jordan on Magic backing him down, he gets help and then he pass to Perkins who misses open 3.
1:01:20 - Jordan off
1:08:10 - Jordan on
Possession 36 - 1:08:35 - Jordan holds Magic as he goes in transition getting a foul. Continuing, Magic gets inbounded ball, Jordan gets help and doesn't contest Magic for 3 as he hits one when shot clock winded down. (Jordan - 12 PPD, 7 IPPD, 3 HPD, 2 IHPD, 6 NDCT)
START OF 4Q
Possession 37 - 1:11:38 - Jordan gambling going for steal from pass, Perkins fouled as Pippen covers for Jordan. (Jordan - 9 PP, 7 IPP)
Possession 38 - 1:13:40 - Teagle gets ball and catch and shoots, Jordan couldn't get in time to contest. (Jordan - 13 PPD)
Possession 39 - 1:14:13 - Jordan collapsing onto Divac with 3 of his teammates, steals it from Divac initiating transition. (Jordan - 10 PP, 2 EPP, 4 HPD, 1 EHPD)
Possession 40 - 1:15:42 - Jordan on Magic, he passes to Perkins, Jordan gets rebound. (Jordan - 5 NDBX)
Possession 41 - 1:16:04 - Jordan on Magic with overhead pass to Perkins missing the shot.
Possession 42 - 1:16:34 - Jordan on Magic posting him up, gets help and Magic goes for hook to middle with Jordan fouling. (Jordan - 14 PPD, 8 IPPD)
Possession 43 - 1:20:57 - Jordan on Magic with pass to Worthy off of spin to make layup.
Possession 44 - 1:21:40 - Jordan gets board. (Jordan - 6 NDBX)
Possession 45 - 1:21:54 - Jordan gets posted up by Magic, fouls him (Jordan - 11 PP, 8 IPP)
Possession 46 - 1:25:24 - Jordan on Magic helping Pippen swarming him as he passes. (Jordan - 15 PPD, 4 EPPD, 5 HPD, 2 EHPD)
Possession 47 - 1:26:10 - Jordan helped with Pippen and he passes out. Jordan follows Magic around and he passes to open man for 3. (Jordan - 16 PPD)
Possession 48 - 1:28:50 - Jordan on Magic, this time not walled with Pippen's help.
Possession 49 - 1:32:08 - Jordan on Magic, he passes and Jordan follows Magic around, this time on opposite wing, overhead pass to Perkins who is fouled and1.
Possession 50 - 1:40:09 - Jordan on Magic, gets help as he passes to Perkins making the open 3 late in game.
END OF GAME

Final tally
16 PPD
4 EPPD
8 IPPD

11 PP
8 IPP
2 EPP

5 HPD
2 EHPD
2 IHPD

5 NDBX
70 possessions available

Hobbled Lebron in his 2nd worst series game was better than Jordan in his best series of the year in his 2 best games. You can make up all the excuses you want to, but it won't change how that peak Lebron was better than peak Jordan.

I could go farther than this, but I won't for now... 10 Bron absolutely wipes 91 Jordan. He is clearing anyone not named 76-77 Kareem.[/quote]

Again, saying LeBron in game 4 vs the 2010 Celtics was better than Jordan in games 1-2 of the 1991 finals just discredits your film analysis.

[OhayoKD]

Again, saying LeBron in game 4 vs the 2010 Celtics was better than Jordan in games 1-2 of the 1991 finals just discredits your film analysis.

No. To discredit film analysis you need to actually address the methodology and process. Complaining someone comes to a different conclusion while offering nothing of substance yourself only discredits you.

I don't think Lebron played better that game, but Lebron's playmaking so far looks like a gigantic advantage not properly captured in all the made-up algorithms you've been spamming, and thus far you lot have done an awful job coming up with explanations for why that is.

[One_and_Done]

Lebron's 10th best season is better than Jordan's best.

[Top10alltime]

Lebron's 10th best season is better than Jordan's best.

What would you say is his 10th best?

In order for me: 2010, 2013, 2012, 2009, 2017, 2018, 2016, 2020, 2014, then pick between 08, 11, 15

Putting even 2016 ahead is a bit too far imo.

[One_and_Done]

Lebron's 10th best season is better than Jordan's best.

What would you say is his 10th best?

In order for me: 2010, 2013, 2012, 2009, 2017, 2018, 2016, 2020, 2014, then pick between 08, 11, 15

Putting even 2016 ahead is a bit too far imo.

I mean, in no particular order, all these seasons are clearly superior to the best season Jordan ever had: 9, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 20. Now there are other seasons I would also rank ahead of Jordan's best season, but that's 10 right there.

[KembaWalker]

I think you have to go with Pippen here

[Djoker]

Ok. How about we check out the GOAT peak's (2009-10 Bron) signals, in that exact year, 2009-10!!

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/807803459331555363/1392961773614661863/image.png?ex=6871703e&is=68701ebe&hm=6f7b5a73c988f1da6d238d656b98548089c746af11635de090fc46ef07619d8a&

That's +11.3 NRTG with Lebron (A 70 win pace!!!! ) 1st in the league in NRTG.
Without Lebron, a -5.6 NRTG (A 28 win pace). That's a top 5 worst in the league in NRTG.

ORTG with: +7.7 rORtg (1st in league by over 3 points!!!! )
ORTG without: -8.6 rORtg (last in league by over a point!!!!)
Diff: +16.3

DRTG with: -3.6 rDRtg (8th in the league)
DRTG without: -2.6 rDRtg (11th in the league)
Diff: +1.0

Jordan 91 comparison:

https://postimg.cc/cg7VV4dX

That is a 14.4 ORTG difference for the supposed GOAT peak (not even top 4 offensive peak lmao: 05 Nash, 87 Magic, this version of Bron (not best Bron offense szn) and 16 Steph are better offensively). That's less than Lebron and Jordan's main talking point is how his scoring apparently has this huge lift. It doesn't. Jordan doesn't have that much impact

Also, I know this isn't everything (film will be provided below for you), but it's still part of the reason 09-10 Bron massively blows out Jordan.

So even with the alternative (the same year where the roster was constructed exactly the same as in 09-10), Lebron has absolutely massive signals similar to the 2010-11 Cavs.

You can't compare their rORtg using different pace estimates.

2010 Lebron numbers are computed using BBR pace so do the same with 1991 Jordan numbers.

1991 Jordan (56 games)

ON Net Rtg: +10.7
OFF Net Rtg: -7.7
ON-OFF Net Rtg: +18.4

ON rORtg: +12.7
OFF rORtg: -14.0
ON-OFF rORtg: +26.7

ON rDRtg: +2.0
OFF rDRtg: -6.2
ON-OFF rDRtg: +8.2

It's actually a +26.7 rORtg difference for the supposed GOAT peak! What do ya know...

[Doctor MJ]

Vote:

1. 1991 Michael Jordan (> 1996 > 1992)
2. 2016 LeBron James (> 2013 > 2009)
3. 1964 Bill Russell (> 1965 > 1962)

So my perspective here is going to be looking to deal with era differences basically in-line with the respect I give it in the Career project.

In that project, people may recall that my top 3 was the same guys, but in the opposite order. So why the flip?

Well, career-wise, LeBron's staggering longevity gives him the clear advantage over Jordan.

And meanwhile, I consider Russell's total career, as the ultimate paradigm shifter in basketball history and most dominant team success over an insane duration, to be unmatched in basketball history.

But while Russell's career amounts to more than the other guys, it's more about that sustaining dynasty than it is really about a season vs season argument, and there are bumps in the road for Jordan & LeBron that are causing them to fall behind Russell's career that just aren't relevant here.

Before I leave the Russell discussion though, I'll speak to two things:

First, the years. To me, that first year without Cousy ('63-64) is Russell's signature. Other than the following '64-65 I don't really have any debate here for the top spot. After those years, I'd tend to go with the 2 immediately prior years (Cousy's last 2), simply because I think Russell was at the peak of his powers in this time frame (age 27-30). I don't know where the swan song '68-69 would be on my list honestly. Huge accomplishment to win that chip, and we shouldn't pretend Russell wasn't critical to it, but he was more limited by that point than he was a few years earlier.

Second, it's a bit too convenient for me that OP suggested a 3-man ballot given that it kinda allows me to avoid (for now) debates between Russell and guys I'm voting Russell ahead of. Those debates will probably be frustrating given that I don't believe Russell is the 3rd best talent for the modern league with that all important painted arc.

Okay, I'm going to head over to LeBron next to talk about how hard it is to pick seasons for him.

I would consider 2009 LeBron's regular season to be arguably the GOAT regular season, and it is certainly his best regular season, but despite the fact that I think he could have easily won a chip in that first Cav stint, I do also think that LeBron became a more resilient playoff performer in the years after.

I would say that 2013 LeBron shows us a new bulletproofed-Bron who has spent his time in Miami working hard to change how he plays to get better at playing with other on-ball talent, with a major part of this involving setting a defensive tone that required a ton of energy and commitment. I would say this probably represents LeBron at an apex of capacity. Extremely good physical shape, working hard constantly on both sides of the ball, figuring out how to work best with a team that has different needs from his Cavs.

Then you have 2016 LeBron where he gives his signature playoff run, toppling the 73-9 Warriors to win the title. While he didn't give the whole season defensive focus he did in the past, his 2-way impact was devastating in critical moments during that run. Offensively, I would say that part of what's going on is that he had better fit in Cleveland again. He chose to go play with Wade, and because that wasn't actually a great move synergistically, they both hade to learn a lot to make it work, which was impressive...but it was nice to move forward with a star guard who could shoot well from range, for example.

In the end, I sided with 2016, but part of what I want to emphasize here is how amazing it is that it's so hard to judge these different years, and what that says about LeBron's ability to keep adjusting how he played to remain an outlier for a very, very long time. Say what you want about LeBron, being his rival generally didn't mean getting more and more effective playing against him, but watching him figure out new ways to leverage his vast physical bag to beat you again.

But in the end, I'm still a believer that there was something distinct to Jordan's focus over the course of particular seasons to push his team to the brink. I also believe that part of what allowed him to do this was a bullying-form of leadership that we know including him throwing unprovoked punches to teammates, and yeah, there's a part of me that would like to normalize for this positive/negative in some way...but if we're just talking about the success of a season, Jordan to me still seems like the king though I think that the way he drove his teams probably did reduce their shelf life.

Now, I went with 1991, but was tempted for 1992 & 1996. I think that effect of the Jordan drive is probably best seen in those years rather than the 1991 breakthrough, but aside from the fact that I think Jordan was the peak of his overall capacity before the 1st retirement, there's also the matter that the actual breakthrough is important in my eyes.

It's understandable why people choose years like 1988 as Jordan's best given that Jordan was at his "Most Air Jordan" in that time frame. But I'm extremely impressed with the way Jordan adapted to Phil Jackson's Triangle. Had Jordan been either unable or unwilling to change to this more read & react style, it would have backfired, and Jordan would have likely been doomed to be that guy who people swore "Would have won it all if they could have given him good teammates?"...but of course, he'd have had the same teammates, he'd just not be able to make as good of a use for them as he could in a system like the Triangle.

Perhaps oddly, the fact that Jordan lacks the off-the-charts floor generalship of LeBron made something like this necessary for Jordan, but then because he embraced it, I believe it enabled Jordan's Bulls best years to blaze through with a level of consistent proficiency that I'm frankly in awe of.

If you asked me to name one team in NBA history as "Most ready for battle", I'd have to go with those Bulls coming with such an unusual level of intensity given their stature.

[ScrantonBulls]

Love the premise and thanks to Ohayo for telling me about this and OP for putting it together. Working on my writeup now.

[AEnigma]

But in the end, I'm still a believer that there was something distinct to Jordan's focus over the course of particular seasons to push his team to the brink. I also believe that part of what allowed him to do this was a bullying-form of leadership that we know including him throwing unprovoked punches to teammates, and yeah, there's a part of me that would like to normalize for this positive/negative in some way...but if we're just talking about the success of a season, Jordan to me still seems like the king though I think that the way he drove his teams probably did reduce their shelf life.
…
If you asked me to name one team in NBA history as "Most ready for battle", I'd have to go with those Bulls coming with such an unusual level of intensity given their stature.

I am curious why this would be attributed primarily to Jordan rather than primarily to Phil “11 rings” Jackson. If we want to discount 2008-10 on the basis that Kobe was fully emulating Jordan by that point, we can do so. But that leaves 2000-02, where Kobe was certainly not much of a leader yet, and while I do not place much stock in the value of leading through bullying that we saw with Jordan and to an extent Kobe, Shaq was happy to settle for outright bullying.

Accordingly, in a locker-room built around a hard-working but hostile isolationist (in multiple ways) and a talented but lazy clown with an anal fixation that manifested through fecal harassment, the obvious leader in that dynastic locker-room is and has always been Phil Jackson. Factor in that the Bulls became a serious contender only when Jackson took over, and that the Bulls stayed a quasi-contender when Jordan left — someone needs credit for that magical “extra-motivation” that seems to have escaped so many other teams in similar circumstances — and the sole through-line across twenty years of near-Russell success becomes the Zen Master. And of course that is also reflected in every effort I have seen, shaky though they may be, to quantify “Coaching impact”, e.g. through coach rapm and the like.

[EmpireFalls]

Vote:

1. 1991 Michael Jordan (> 1996 > 1992)
2. 2016 LeBron James (> 2013 > 2009)
3. 1964 Bill Russell (> 1965 > 1962)

So my perspective here is going to be looking to deal with era differences basically in-line with the respect I give it in the Career project.

In that project, people may recall that my top 3 was the same guys, but in the opposite order. So why the flip?

Well, career-wise, LeBron's staggering longevity gives him the clear advantage over Jordan.

And meanwhile, I consider Russell's total career, as the ultimate paradigm shifter in basketball history and most dominant team success over an insane duration, to be unmatched in basketball history.

But while Russell's career amounts to more than the other guys, it's more about that sustaining dynasty than it is really about a season vs season argument, and there are bumps in the road for Jordan & LeBron that are causing them to fall behind Russell's career that just aren't relevant here.

Before I leave the Russell discussion though, I'll speak to two things:

First, the years. To me, that first year without Cousy ('63-64) is Russell's signature. Other than the following '64-65 I don't really have any debate here for the top spot. After those years, I'd tend to go with the 2 immediately prior years (Cousy's last 2), simply because I think Russell was at the peak of his powers in this time frame (age 27-30). I don't know where the swan song '68-69 would be on my list honestly. Huge accomplishment to win that chip, and we shouldn't pretend Russell wasn't critical to it, but he was more limited by that point than he was a few years earlier.

Second, it's a bit too convenient for me that OP suggested a 3-man ballot given that it kinda allows me to avoid (for now) debates between Russell and guys I'm voting Russell ahead of. Those debates will probably be frustrating given that I don't believe Russell is the 3rd best talent for the modern league with that all important painted arc.

Okay, I'm going to head over to LeBron next to talk about how hard it is to pick seasons for him.

I would consider 2009 LeBron's regular season to be arguably the GOAT regular season, and it is certainly his best regular season, but despite the fact that I think he could have easily won a chip in that first Cav stint, I do also think that LeBron became a more resilient playoff performer in the years after.

I would say that 2013 LeBron shows us a new bulletproofed-Bron who has spent his time in Miami working hard to change how he plays to get better at playing with other on-ball talent, with a major part of this involving setting a defensive tone that required a ton of energy and commitment. I would say this probably represents LeBron at an apex of capacity. Extremely good physical shape, working hard constantly on both sides of the ball, figuring out how to work best with a team that has different needs from his Cavs.

Then you have 2016 LeBron where he gives his signature playoff run, toppling the 73-9 Warriors to win the title. While he didn't give the whole season defensive focus he did in the past, his 2-way impact was devastating in critical moments during that run. Offensively, I would say that part of what's going on is that he had better fit in Cleveland again. He chose to go play with Wade, and because that wasn't actually a great move synergistically, they both hade to learn a lot to make it work, which was impressive...but it was nice to move forward with a star guard who could shoot well from range, for example.

In the end, I sided with 2016, but part of what I want to emphasize here is how amazing it is that it's so hard to judge these different years, and what that says about LeBron's ability to keep adjusting how he played to remain an outlier for a very, very long time. Say what you want about LeBron, being his rival generally didn't mean getting more and more effective playing against him, but watching him figure out new ways to leverage his vast physical bag to beat you again.

But in the end, I'm still a believer that there was something distinct to Jordan's focus over the course of particular seasons to push his team to the brink. I also believe that part of what allowed him to do this was a bullying-form of leadership that we know including him throwing unprovoked punches to teammates, and yeah, there's a part of me that would like to normalize for this positive/negative in some way...but if we're just talking about the success of a season, Jordan to me still seems like the king though I think that the way he drove his teams probably did reduce their shelf life.

Now, I went with 1991, but was tempted for 1992 & 1996. I think that effect of the Jordan drive is probably best seen in those years rather than the 1991 breakthrough, but aside from the fact that I think Jordan was the peak of his overall capacity before the 1st retirement, there's also the matter that the actual breakthrough is important in my eyes.

It's understandable why people choose years like 1988 as Jordan's best given that Jordan was at his "Most Air Jordan" in that time frame. But I'm extremely impressed with the way Jordan adapted to Phil Jackson's Triangle. Had Jordan been either unable or unwilling to change to this more read & react style, it would have backfired, and Jordan would have likely been doomed to be that guy who people swore "Would have won it all if they could have given him good teammates?"...but of course, he'd have had the same teammates, he'd just not be able to make as good of a use for them as he could in a system like the Triangle.

Perhaps oddly, the fact that Jordan lacks the off-the-charts floor generalship of LeBron made something like this necessary for Jordan, but then because he embraced it, I believe it enabled Jordan's Bulls best years to blaze through with a level of consistent proficiency that I'm frankly in awe of.

If you asked me to name one team in NBA history as "Most ready for battle", I'd have to go with those Bulls coming with such an unusual level of intensity given their stature.

This is the only post that captures the 3 greatest players of all time (in my view) and thus I’d like to use its arguments as my voting post.

1. 91 MJ - unparalleled scoring/defense/motor/resilience combination. Exciting to watch and simply relentless in all aspects. The most fearless performer ever. Both a blur athletically and capable of slowing down the game to his pace.

2.12 LeBron - a true mastery of every aspect of basketball, inhuman mental/physical durability, more burden than people realize with the Bosh injury, the best player I can remember watching in person. Also shared the court with a super ball-dominant player to devastating effect, his best off- ball year of his career. Game 6 in Boston is obviously his most iconic performance; Game 4 vs OKC was an even better two-way performance, and despite battling cramps legitimately the closest I think I’ve seen to perfect two-way decision-making in a game of that level.

3. 64 Russell - as you said, simply the greatest overall output to winning basketball ever. Due to era he (and other big men) had a hugely outsized impact but he was like 2 DPOYs in one mixed with ann elite level playmaking engine hiding in plain sight.

[f4p]

Lebron's 10th best season is better than Jordan's best.

That's a pretty big insult to those other 12 LeBron seasons. Reported to The King.

[One_and_Done]

Lebron's 10th best season is better than Jordan's best.

That's a pretty big insult to those other 12 LeBron seasons. Reported to The King.

Not really, since I said more than 10 were better than Jordan's best.

[homecourtloss]

Last rgm of the day. Who shall I bestow the honor...

Ok so you are pretty well known around here for extreme modernist views. Heck you've argued on other threads that Kawhi's peak is way better than Jordan's. I just find it interesting that with that mindset, you're not giving other modern players love. You ranked Duncan and Shaq over Jokic for instance and even included Magic/Kareem/Hakeem as honorable mentions but no modern guys.

One other poster earlier in the thread had 1. Lebron 2. Steph 3. Giannis. While I completely disagree with the criteria and the list, at least it's logically consistent as he said he strongly emphasizes the modern NBA though I suspect not as much as you. With your logic why not have Jokic #1... He's clearly the best player in the best era, his box score metrics are outright better than Lebron's and his impact metrics are at least competitive (one Engelmann's RAPM had him #1 narrowly over Lebron).

By the way the argument that the 2011 Cavs had essentially the same roster for the first half of the season is just factually incorrect. They lost not just Lebron but Shaq, Delonte and Big Z as well. Only in the 1st half of the season, Varejao missed 10 games and Mo Williams also missed 8 games and played very sparingly in another 10 or so games. I went through this in other threads and why it's a horribly dishonest argument but it keeps rearing its ugly head in this thread.

And of course Lebron's WOWY is only ever mentioned when it's favorable. All the instances where it looks mediocre are glossed over.

The argument about the 2011 Cavs always goes something like this:

Person A: “The Cavs got way worse between 2010 and 2011, which is attributable to LeBron.”

Person B: “But actually the 2011 Cavs roster was extremely different from the 2010 Cavs roster and the 2011 Cavs were very unhealthy.”

Person A: “Yeah but the 2011 Cavs were very bad early in the year when the roster was relatively similar and people were healthy, and the players they lost between that time period and 2010 were all negative players.

Person B: “That time period where the roster was purportedly relatively similar was actually not a healthy time period, since probably the two best remaining players on the 2011 Cavs had come into the season with injuries. And regardless of whether you think the players the Cavs lost in the offseason were negatives, they’d played a lot in 2010 and basically weren’t replaced (despite the team having the bargaining chips to do so—including a massive trade exception, mid-level exception, etc.), so the team was obviously left with even worse players. Also, the fact that the team declined to use virtually any resources to rebuild the roster makes clear they were tanking.”

Person A: *crickets*

This looks fun.

One_and_done, I choose you!

Spoiler:

These just aren’t good arguments.

1) You continue to persist with the Danny Green point. Nobody thought Danny Green was an NBA player in 2010. His release signifies nothing. The Spurs, who picked him up, waived him too. He spent 2 years in the G-League trying to earn an NBA contract. If teams thought he was good, they could have had him at any time for a minimum contract. 30 teams were not interested. This is not a point you should be raising again, in any context.

2) You continue to make erroneous points RE: Shaq and Z-Ill, claiming both that the Cavs failed by “not replacing them with something”, and “not trading them for value”. The second statement is the more misguided, so let’s start there. This may come as a shock to you, but a Shaq who is turning 38, and a Z-Ill who is turning 35, don’t actually have any value. Part of why they have no value is that they both sucked, and were old, and would expect minutes if you signed them. Shaq had sucked the year before he got to Cleveland (he basically sabotaged the entire 2009 Suns campaign; you should know this as a Suns fan!), he sucked in Cleveland, and he sucked after he left Cleveland. Shaq was washed by that point, but even washed Shaq wasn’t going to stick around with no Lebron.

So was Z-Ill. These guys were getting minutes by necessity, because the Cavs had nothing else. Even by the end of the season though, Z-Ill was down to less than 10 mpg in the playoffs, and he was turning 35. He had no value. Which is why when he tried to play the following season he was horrible, and quickly retired. I also don’t know what ability they even had to trade Z-Ill. He followed Lebron on a minimum to try and win a ring. He had no interest in being traded, and the Heat had no cap room to trade for him either (and why would they?). The big clue that these guys had no value was that they both signed for the minimum, and immediately retired after the following season. Terrible argument. Just by removing negative impact players, you can get better.

One of the many reasons plus minus stats are bad is because when a transcendent player like Lebron is carrying a bunch of luggage around, some of those luggage guys are going to get a boosted RAPM, because of the time they spend with him on the floor, because like someone has to share the court with him. I don’t care what Z-Ill’s RAPM was. He sucked in 2010. Sucked. So did Shaq, and so did D.West. That’s why all 3 fell out of the NBA not long after. They sucked in 2010, and they sucked in 2011. This wasn’t a case of them suddenly falling off a cliff after leaving.

3) Perhaps your most off the mark argument is your “this was similar to the 99 Bulls”. That is simply untrue. The Bulls guys who left with Jordan had major value, and their departure was a deathblow to the team. One of the most obvious ways to tell it was different was how the departing players were treated. Shaq, Z-Ill, and West, were given minimum type contracts and fell out of the league right away. Nobody valued them. Scottie Pippen was offered a 5 year $67 mill contract, which in the 99 cap environment was close to a max contract. Kukoc was still 29, and when he was traded a year or so later by the Bulls they got a pick that became the #7 draft pick (and Bruce Bowen). Longley was given a 5 year 30 mill contract by the Suns, which was a very big contract at the time. Again, you should know this. Even Kerr and Harper, who were older role players who took less money to ring chase, got more than the minimum that the Cavs guys got. Rodman didn’t get anything much in free agency, but that wasn’t because he had no talent anymore, it was because he was crazy and teams didn’t think they could control him (which proved correct).

4) Why did Mo’s minutes drop? Well, when you’re getting blown out every game you don’t need to play as many minutes, funnily enough. Why did Jamison not start? Well, Jamison wasn’t that good to begin with. The Cavs were hoping Hickson could step up and fill the void, and at the time Cavs fans (erroneously) believed Hickson was an upcoming all-star. That was obviously ridiculous in hindsight, and to objective fans it was absurd at the time, but that was the likely thought process. Also when you’re losing so badly, you’re going to experiment with a lot of line-ups to see what works. Jamison started 38 out of 56 games in 2011, when they were trying to win. The following year in 2012, when the Cavs were definitely tanking, they didn’t bother trying to see if Jamison could give them a lift off the bench. They just started him and let him accumulate losses while he chased stats as usual. Jamison was never a particularly good player ever to be honest, he was a guy who chased stats and posted empty numbers.

5) Trade exceptions require people to want to sign with you. With Lebron leaving town, nobody was interested in that. I think you’ve completely misread the free agent dynamics that offseason. It was considered a coup that the Cavs were able to get supposedly upcoming guard Ramon Sessions. I should also note, the Cavs showed they were very willing to spend money during the rebuild. They traded for Baron, for a pick they had no idea would turn out to be #1, knowing they’d be eating his terrible contract. I don’t think there’s much evidence Gilbert was too cheap to pay for players, his track record does not support that at all, it’s just Lebron announcing he was going on 8 July blindsided them and at that point in free agency most free agents already had deals lined up (and those who didn’t weren’t keen on Cleveland).

6) Organisations tank, players rarely do. The Nets this year are one of many examples of this. I don’t doubt the Cavs guys were going out trying to win. They just couldn’t. What the owner thought or didn’t think is largely irrelevant to them. Besides, the owner made a lot of noise about winning, whether he meant it or not. The Nets on the other hand were known by all to be tanking this year, their GM adnitting it in a roundabout way, but the players have come out to try and win. I don’t think Gilbert’s inner thoughts are relevant at all. Varejao, A.Parker, Mo, etc, these guys were pros. They were going out to try and win, even if only to ensure their next contracts.

I’ll be brief:

1) You did indeed back down a little on the Danny Green point early, but you really need to stop mentioning it completely. If the Cavs made a mistake misjudging his talent, so did the other 29 teams. He was there waiting to be picked up for like 2 years after, grinding in the G-League.

2) Shaq and Z-Ill had zero value. No team was giving up anything to get them. Moreover, despite your claim that “you can always work something out”, that would in fact have been impossible for Z-Ill. The Heat used every fibre of cap space to execute the Lebron and Bosh additions, including underhanded moves like Haslem. They could only offer Z-Ill a vet minimum, they had no salary ballast to trade. That’s just a tangent though. The real issue was those guys had zero value.

3) I handwave most RAPM consistently. Shaq and Z-Ill aren’t special. There are a lot of problems with plus minus stats. But when you consider a hypothetical scenario of “1 player is carrying his whole team”, it is inescapable that some of those players would have artificially high RAPM, because somebody has to share the floor with this star and obviously that’s going to help their RAPM. Since that is the exact scenario people are advancing about Lebron for the 2010 Cavs, RAPM strikes me as particularly useless.

4) Nothing you have said above changes the fact that the 99 Bulls were a horrible analogy. They are entirely dissimilar from the 2011 Cavs, due to the loss of a bunch of good players. The Cavs only lost Lebron and a bunch of trash. FYI, Harper missed 30% of the 99 season, and Kukoc missed 12%, so it’s a problematic comparison for that minor reason also. The biggest issue was they lost Pippen, and a bunch of other good players too.

5) Mo’s minutes were down from the start… because they sucked right from the start. His minutes also dropped from only 34mpt to 30 mpg. What a radical difference. Jamison coming off the bench wasn’t just line-up experimentation, I also noted the presence of JJ Hickson, who the Cavs thought was good. But Jamison off the bench wasn’t a bad idea. He killed them as a starter. Of course, he also killed them off the bench, so it was moot either way. A team doesn’t need to wait to get in a hole to make these decisions btw, they can see in training camp and pre-season “wow, Jamison is killing us on D, maybe we should try him off the bench… nope, that wasn’t it”. Mo and Jamison had no significant health issues. That’s just a bunch of excuses. Mo’s minutes fluctuated between 28mpg and 34 mpg from November to January on a month to month basis. There was no obvious minutes limit.

6) Teams often fail to use trade exceptions on anything meaningful. Ditto exceptions. Especially when they are late to free agency and are a small market.

7) I don’t agree with your “players are infected by the organisation mindset, so if they think the owner isn’t trying their hardest to win, even if they say they are, blah blah”. There’s countless examples of that not being true. Did the Clippers throw in the towel this year after they lost PG13, and heard Kawhi wasn’t going to be healthy? Or did they think “now’s our chance to show those doubters and haters what we can do without those big names who always get the credit!” The Cavs were trying, the problem was they sucked.

It doesn't take much effort for Joker to check these things, so I'm pretty underwhelmed by their post.

What happened in 2011 is well documented. Thr Cavs owner was furious that Lebron left, and declared his team would win before Lebron could. He kept a vet roster, convinced the team would be good. He was wrong. After 40 games, with the Cavs at 8-32, the front office convinced him to give up, and started to rest guys and trade others. Mo Williams suddenly getting a bunch of DNPs after game 40 is the point at which you can identify the Cavs scrapping their attempts to win. Mo was only brought back later in the season for a game or two to prove he was still healthy, and he was traded immediately afterwards.

The Cavs vets didn't play less games because they couldn't. They played less because the Cavs pulled the rip cord halfway into the season and started resting and/or trading guys. The Cavs collapse to a sub-20 win team after Lebron left, combined with their 1-13 record in games Bron missed the previous 3 years, tells you all you need to know about how impactful Lebron was (and how weak a supporting cast he had).

With a little homecourt on the side

Spoiler:

The only ones who are clinging to things are the hagiographers who have to try to hand-wave away a 55 win season when a certain player left the team while when another player left the team it was obvious how bad that player’s roster was.

Cavs with these players:

Varejao
8-23

Mo
8-28

With both
6-21

Andy V: -9.0 ON, +.5 ON/OFF, 8-23 in games played, 19 win pace, didn't do anything

Mo Williams: -13.9 ON, -4.4 ON/OFF, 9-28, 20 win pace (Cavs were better with Mo off court)

Mo Williams + Andy V.: 27 games played, -9.5, 6-21, 18 win pace;

(here we can observe HCL... adjusting for teammates, the thing Lessthanjake apparently thinks we are terrified of doing)

And Elpolo_14 says GOODBYE!!!

Spoiler:

Great post and analysis. I also try to count his DTOs and EDTOs this game after seeing how much you got for him. And by my way of tracking like I did to every other player I do - I got MJ having 69DTOs and 34EDTOs - it really great.

The defense scheme and Pippen being out lead the defense to even load out more on MJ. He being able to capitalize on that show how good he is as an offensive engine. ( It reminded me of some Bron game against Magic who the defensive scheme were kinda similar to this MJ game or Nash against the Mavs )

I do think it not the highest DTOs/EDTOs count ever even by my own tracking but it get pretty high when he the heliocentric offense initiator. When I'm tracking any player I try to count the overall team possession when he on the floor and the Possession this specific "PLAYER" Have action on either both on/off ball. So it can help contextualize if he was the sole offensive initiator when he was on the floor or not. Ex.if a teammates bring ball up and doing Isolation without involving my "player" I would count it as total possession on court but not as possession+action. So it can help benefits more the player who isn't the sole offensive engine in his team and make the Heliocentric who get ball in every possession less impressive

Like you said this system isn't perfect but it can help to get the context of some player against situation or different coverage they faced with how they able to impact in such environment

RESUME Game 1 lebron 2009 offensively Total Possession when bron was in the floor – 75 Total Possession that Lebron have action on/offball - 64 Playmaking -DTOs - 69 -EDTOs – 35
ADAs – 19
-Double - 14 -Triple - 3 -Création - 21 ~ R’Creation ( Rim ) – 7
P’Creation ( Prerimeter ) -14
-SC ( Screen ) - 1
EPDL( Elite pass delivery ) - 12
RPDL ( Regular pass delivery ) - 18
BRDL ( Bad pass delivery ) – 1
BB ( Bring ball up ) - 16
Scoring -FGA - 30 -FGM - 20 -M ( midrange ) -11 ( 8/11 ) -P ( Post play ) – 2 ( 1/2 ) -R ( Rim : lay up / dunk ) – 11 ( 8/11 ) -T ( 3pt ) – 6 (3/6 ) -PB ( Putback ) – 0 -FTA - 9 + FTM – 6 -OCT ( Offensive Contest ) - 24 -OUCT ( Offensive Uncontested ) - 6
FD ( Foul draw by defender ) - 8
REBOUND
OREB – 3
OBX – 1
NOBX -2


That is .97 DTO pp and .46 EDTO pp.

1989 Game 6 Jordan 13 assist game

.80 DTO pp and .39 EDTO.

RESUME Game 2 MJ 1991 offensively Total Possession when MJ was in the floor – 61 Total Possession of play MJ have action both on/off ball – 58 Total Possession of play MJ didn’t affect or didn’t have the opportunity to affect – 3 Playmaking
DTOs - 41
EDTOs – 17
ADAs – 4
Double - 8
Triple - 0
Création - 14
R’Creation ( Rim ) - 8
P’Creation ( Prerimeter ) - 6
SC ( Screen ) - 0
EPDL( Elite pass delivery ) - 7
RPDL ( Regular pass delivery ) - 13
BRDL ( Bad pass delivery ) – 3
BB ( Bring ball up ) - 22

MJ only have .67 DTO PP and .28 EDTO PP. He actually bring ball up MORE than Lebron in 2009. But his playmaking still collapse.

This part doesn't really speak for itself so let me offer commentary.

1. Lessthanjake's tracking for the 89 game managed to outpace Elpollo's by roughly 30 (the biggest gap across a dozen+ or so tracked games from 5 sources before this was 10).

2. Lessthanjake blamed this on the subjectivity of the metric as opposed to acknowledging that counting defenders who are running towards other shooting threats as "single-handedly or near single-handedly taking out" doesn't really follow the spirit of "single-handedly or near single-handedly":
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=118878794#p118878794

3. Lessthanjake than asserts based on really nothing that EDTOS inflate Lebron's playmaking value because he is using the ball alot.

This was a bad move because as often happens when you just pull things out of your ass, the film suggests (so far) that's total nonsense. You see

-> It turns out even 2009 "defacto point guard" (per lessthanjake) Lebron has games where he brings the ball up less than triangle Jordan and his raw creation is multiple times higher despite registering roughly half the assists. (Elpollo decided to choose Jordan's highest assist games to give him the fairest chance)

-> Lebron is outcreating Jordan when he is playing an actual point guard with pippen down and bringing up the ball vastly more than Lebron did at basically any point of his career in games primarily remembered for big scoring outbursts, with lower assist averages...including games he is playing next to another high-volume playmaker in Dwayne Wade.

-> So far it's Jordan's raw creation that plummets playing in systems and having to share the ball while Lebron mantains his ability to output high-volume creation, even when he's largely used off-ball with an injured Boobie Gibson doing the ball-handling.

Now pair this with the Cavs benefitting from letting Lebron just do everything (especially for the undefeated 11-game stretch they posted with Mo-Williams (sideshowbob and top10):

Spoiler:

2010 Cleveland Cavaliers

Full Season

Code: Select all

Pace     ORTG     DRTG     MOV     SOS     SRS     Off     Def     Net
90.6     112.1    105.0    6.52   -0.35    6.17   +4.6    -2.2    +6.8

Pre-PG Stretch 44 Games

Code: Select all

Pace     ORTG     DRTG     MOV     SOS     SRS     Off     Def     Net
90.2     111.4    104.3    6.43   -0.20    6.64   +3.8    -3.1    +6.9

Lebron PG Stretch January 23rd - April 6th, 2010, 32 Games

Code: Select all

Pace     ORTG     DRTG     MOV     SOS     SRS     Off     Def     Net
90.7     114.8    105.1    8.84   -1.04    7.24   +7.0    -1.6    +8.6

Four Factors

Full Season

Code: Select all

              eFG%       ORB/DRB%    TOV%       FT/FGA

Offense       53.2%      25.1%       12.7%      .246
Defense       48.2%      77.2%       11.7%      .218

Pre-PG Stretch 44 Games

Code: Select all

              eFG%       ORB/DRB%    TOV%       FT/FGA

Offense       53.1%      25.3%       13.5%      .247
Defense       47.5%      77.7%       12.0%      .241

Lebron PG Stretch January 23rd - April 6th, 2010, 32 Games

Code: Select all

              eFG%       ORB/DRB%    TOV%       FT/FGA

Offense       54.3%      25.3%       11.7%      .248
Defense       48.2%      76.5%       11.1%      .193

It's still early. But a picture is starting to form from the film. One dramatically different from what posters and analysts like Djoker, Lessthanjake, and Elgee have been pushing for years to decades.

It's Jordan whose raw creation is highly dependent on what scheme he's operating in and how much he can use the ball and Jordan whose raw creation tracking inflates his actual capability,

It's Lebron demonstrating the ablity to adapt and produce at historic levels in a variety of systems. And Lebron whose raw creation tracking undersells his actual capability.


Now pair this with a comical tracked defensive disparity (both in terms of usage and efficacy with games cherrypicked favorably to bolster Jordan), and I think we have a pretty reasonable hypothesis for how one player turns 20 to 60 (30 to 60 repeatedly) while the other turns 30 to 50.

One that does not require us to pretend chicago became a 1-win team when orlando woodridge left to make his next team worse...

Lebron James is better at basketball. Crazy, I know.


Also, lol

Relatedly, I also find it curious that the people who tout that WOWY signal never seem to care about the relatively middling WOWY signals LeBron has had in his career

Are you just hoping no one actually reads what people are actually writing? Everything regarding WOWY until you brought up 2011 included Miami and LA. Some of the samples include his teenage years too. Even 2019, when Lebron's team is good and becomes bad because Lebron suffers a groin injury and is either missing or playing injured is included. Even 2021, when Lebron's team is literally the best in the league with him and then he suffers another injury which makes him and the team play bad is included.

Cherrypicking, the way the term is actually defined, more accurately describes your guy's approach: completely leaving out full regular-seasons and postseasons, pitting the longest career anyone's had vs incomplete primes, and quite literally throwing out a playoff run that is, in Jordan-supporterese "two tiers better statistically" than anything Jordan has ever done, because of a hypothetical (while disregarding a well documented injury in 2010 because it's too hypothetical).

So far, one side is looking at the totality of what's there to look at. The other is trying to create an illusion of comprehensiveness by artificially yanking out "structured" interpretations of the same data largely using processes they don't actually understand.

This is why it's 25-6 right now. This is why every voter who swung barring one shifted against the guy you're defending. Our bull meter is more sensitive than you give us credit for. You're trying to paint a fraud as a GOAT. And almost no one is buying it.

Was just about to quote my post that you already quoted it’s absolutely absurd the discussions about the Cavs being so bad because they “lost so much more than just LeBron” when everything we have suggests otherwise. Excellent and thorough takedown of such absurdities.