Bill Simmons RIPS the Raptors roster and salaries. (UPDATE Zach Lowe & Rob Mahoney go in on Raptors)

[TheProfessor]

I look forward to all the people who agree the Raps have the bleakest outlook in the East to jumping off the bandwagon. I mean, who willingly signs up for 5 years of misery, unless your sole objective is to troll?

You can be a fan, and still realize that Toronto is in a godawful position. Aside from the Suns who is truly in a worse position than the Raptors? No S or A-tier talent. Over paid B-tier talent (Barnes, Ingram). Signficantly overpaid C tier talent (Quickley). Only 1 2 way player on the roster (Potentially 2). Flawed roster construction.

Just happy Masai is gone and hopefully we can start to clean house.

Several other teams are in a worse spot than we are right now.

Can I know about these teams aside from the Suns? Possibly PHI?

[Duffman100]

You can be a fan, and still realize that Toronto is in a godawful position. Aside from the Suns who is truly in a worse position than the Raptors? No S or A-tier talent. Over paid B-tier talent (Barnes, Ingram). Signficantly overpaid C tier talent (Quickley). Only 1 2 way player on the roster (Potentially 2). Flawed roster construction.

Just happy Masai is gone and hopefully we can start to clean house.

Several other teams are in a worse spot than we are right now.

Can I know about these teams aside from the Suns? Possibly PHI?

Brooklyn, Utah, Charlotte, Bucks, Bulls, Kings, Pelicans.

There's arguments for like 10 teams. All of these teams have various issues from not having any talent at all, do have mid level talent,etc

[OakleyDokely]

Basically any team without a top 5-10 player has no chance at a title, whether that team is treadmilling or tanking or something in-between. BRK just used up 5 1st rounders in one draft and unless one of those guys becomes a MVP candidate or close to one, the chances they stiff the 2nd round anytime soon is unlikely let alone win a title.

What separates the great franchises from the mediocre ones is the ability to bring in talent around the edges (value FA's, undervalued players through trade, drafting more rotation players than normal) and luck.

SA didn't outwork DET or CHA in the lottery to add Wemby. LAL weren't smarter than the 28 other teams because DAL wanted to trade him to one team. Crazy circumstances occurred that landed SGA in OKC and Kawhi in TOR. These aren't moves you can plan for. They just happen. Build the best team you can, add as much talent as you can and then you hope for some luck along the way.

[lobosloboslobos]

I used to love reading Bill Simmons' columns way back in the day. He was brilliant and hilarious as a writer. He was also great as editor of The Ringer and Grantland. However, as a talking head and basketball analyst he sucks donkey balls and always has. Plus he always disses Canadian teams. It goes back to the Habs-Bruins rivalry that crushed him as a kid.

[Appostis]

People are really overthinking here .. legitimately when was the last time he had anything positive to say about the Raptors? Even the championship year...I can't recall him being particularly positive about the team. Even Barnes getting a rookie max got **** even though every team in the league would of offered him the same deal (maybe 29/30 but generally..come on)

It is a tad concerning that it seems every media outlet from the US besides Lowe has us as the worse of the worse but truthfully I would put that more as no one really paid attention to why the team was bad last year.

One of the worse injury filled seasons. *Shrug*

[PushDaRock]

Basically any team without a top 5-10 player has no chance at a title, whether that team is treadmilling or tanking or something in-between. BRK just used up 5 1st rounders in one draft and unless one of those guys becomes a MVP candidate or close to one, the chances they stiff the 2nd round anytime soon is unlikely let alone win a title.

What separates the great franchises from the mediocre ones is the ability to bring in talent around the edges (value FA's, undervalued players through trade, drafting more rotation players than normal) and luck.

SA didn't outwork DET or CHA in the lottery to add Wemby. LAL weren't smarter than the 28 other teams because DAL wanted to trade him to one team. Crazy circumstances occurred that landed SGA in OKC and Kawhi in TOR. These aren't moves you can plan for. They just happen. Build the best team you can, add as much talent as you can and then you hope for some luck along the way.

Well, the Pacers almost won a title without a top 10 player.

[causal_fan]

People are really overthinking here .. legitimately when was the last time he had anything positive to say about the Raptors? Even the championship year...I can't recall him being particularly positive about the team. Even Barnes getting a rookie max got **** even though every team in the league would of offered him the same deal (maybe 29/30 but generally..come on)

It is a tad concerning that it seems every media outlet from the US besides Lowe has us as the worse of the worse but truthfully I would put that more as no one really paid attention to why the team was bad last year.

One of the worse injury filled seasons. *Shrug*

To be fair Simmons said he understood why the Raptors had to give Barnes the rookie max but he didn't think Barnes was worth it and I agree.

[Westside Gunn]

Chet Holmgren got 5/250. Chet

As time moves on these contracts will get even more ridiculous

Im not too worried about Barnes

[ciueli]

You can be a fan, and still realize that Toronto is in a godawful position. Aside from the Suns who is truly in a worse position than the Raptors? No S or A-tier talent. Over paid B-tier talent (Barnes, Ingram). Signficantly overpaid C tier talent (Quickley). Only 1 2 way player on the roster (Potentially 2). Flawed roster construction.

Just happy Masai is gone and hopefully we can start to clean house.

Several other teams are in a worse spot than we are right now.

Can I know about these teams aside from the Suns? Possibly PHI?

Even just limiting it to the Eastern Conference:

Milwaukee: Will lose Giannis within the next 2 years, have no guard rotation, and have traded away all their picks.
Philadelphia: Two albatross contracts in Embiid and Paul George eating 2/3rds of their cap.
Brooklyn: Will be bad for most of the next 5 years while they build through the draft.
Washington: Ditto.
Charlotte: Basically one good player with poor supporting cast and that player can't play more than half a season.
Chicago: Roughly the same shape as us but without as much talent and worse picks.

Throw in the West:

Phoenix: Traded away all their picks and are banking everything on Booker, a.k.a. the next Brad Beal.
Golden State: Old as dirt and falling apart, can't stay healthy, have no plan past the next season.
Pelicans: Already weren't in great shape, run by Dumars who is destroying them in record time.
Clippers: Might not be relevant for more than a couple of years, less even if Kawhi can't stay healthy. No plan after that.
Sacramento: Run by Vivek and apparently don't understand the concept of defence when it comes to team construction.
Utah: No plan outside of intentionally losing and accumulating draft picks, the few actually good players they have will probably demand out soon.

[TheProfessor]

Several other teams are in a worse spot than we are right now.

Can I know about these teams aside from the Suns? Possibly PHI?

Brooklyn, Utah, Charlotte, Bucks, Bulls, Kings, Pelicans.

There's arguments for like 10 teams. All of these teams have various issues from not having any talent at all, do have mid level talent,etc

Brooklyn has tons of cap space, and a high lottery pick coming this year with lots of youth. Can easily reload next year. I would say better.
Utah has picks, capspace, 2 potential A-tier talents. Utah is much better than we are.
Bucks still have Giannis, Giannis is worth more than our franchise.
Bulls are a push, we are basically the same team.
Sac is a push.
Charlotte is in a much better situation than us, its not particularly close. Lonzo has more talent than everyone in the raptors organization combined. Coupled with strong supporting talent from Miller and Knuppel. not even close.
Pelicans situation is similar to ours, aside from the fact that they have an S-tier player.

So what I just learned is, The raptors are godawful but so are few other teams barely.

[Duffman100]

:

Can I know about these teams aside from the Suns? Possibly PHI?

Brooklyn, Utah, Charlotte, Bucks, Bulls, Kings, Pelicans.

There's arguments for like 10 teams. All of these teams have various issues from not having any talent at all, do have mid level talent,etc

Brooklyn has tons of cap space, and a high lottery pick coming this year with lots of youth. Can easily reload next year. I would say better.
Utah has picks, capspace, 2 potential A-tier talents. Utah is much better than we are.
Bucks still have Giannis, Giannis is worth more than our franchise.
Bulls are a push, we are basically the same team.
Sac is a push.
Charlotte is in a much better situation than us, its not particularly close. Lonzo has more talent than everyone in the raptors organization combined. Coupled with strong supporting talent from Miller and Knuppel. not even close.
Pelicans situation is similar to ours, aside from the fact that they have an S-tier player.

So what I just learned is, The raptors are godawful but so are few other teams barely.

Brooklyn's best prospect right now is denim and cap space and picks are all theoritical. They're in a rough shape

Utah has two A potential guys? Huh? They also have a team of mostly meh prospects

Bucks have no way to build around Gianni's any time soon.

Bulls and Sac are hardly pushes.

Lamelo isn't that good and the rest of the team is very meh as well. Still a 20 win team for the foreseeable future.

Pelicans "S tier player" can't stay on the court. So no it's not comparable.

You're completely overrating the 5 year future of these teams.

[TheProfessor]

:

Brooklyn, Utah, Charlotte, Bucks, Bulls, Kings, Pelicans.

There's arguments for like 10 teams. All of these teams have various issues from not having any talent at all, do have mid level talent,etc

Brooklyn has tons of cap space, and a high lottery pick coming this year with lots of youth. Can easily reload next year. I would say better.
Utah has picks, capspace, 2 potential A-tier talents. Utah is much better than we are.
Bucks still have Giannis, Giannis is worth more than our franchise.
Bulls are a push, we are basically the same team.
Sac is a push.
Charlotte is in a much better situation than us, its not particularly close. Lonzo has more talent than everyone in the raptors organization combined. Coupled with strong supporting talent from Miller and Knuppel. not even close.
Pelicans situation is similar to ours, aside from the fact that they have an S-tier player.

So what I just learned is, The raptors are godawful but so are few other teams barely.

Brooklyn's best prospect right now is denim and cap space and picks are all theoritical. They're in a rough shape

Utah has two A potential guys? Huh? They also have a team of mostly meh prospects

Bucks have no way to build around Gianni's any time soon.

Bulls and Sac are hardly pushes.

Lamelo isn't that good and the rest of the team is very meh as well. Still a 20 win team for the foreseeable future.

Pelicans "S tier player" can't stay on the court. So no it's not comparable.

You're completely overrating the 5 year future of these teams.

Brooklyn will be tanking next year in a loaded draft, the only long term contract they have is seen as a positive contract. Even though, there cap space and picks are theoretical at least they have that theory to play with. We have potentially 3 of the worst contracts according to realgm. They can tank and reload we cannot.

Lauri has put up some of the best stats prior to to this year, than anyone on our team. Also as much as I hate Bailey as a prospect, he does have high ceiling until proven otherwise. So yes 2 potential A level guys. They also have picks and capspace. So yes much better us.

Giannis/Turner and 3 WNBA players have a better chance at winning than our roster has constructed does in the next 5 years. And if Giannis is ever traded, it will bring in one of the biggest hauls in the NBA unless Nico Harris is also managing the Bucks.

Lamelo right sure isn't good, if traded would produce a bigger haul than any Raptors player. Brandon Miller is better any young player not named Barnes and is probably more valuable given the contract. You have Kon Knuppel as a cherry on top. See a significantly better outlook for this team in the next 2 years than the Raptors.

That S tier player, given his contract is worth more than any raptor right now. Much like Toronto, the pelicans have terrible contracts (Murray, Quickly, Barnes, Poole, Ingram) but they also good young players like Murphy, Jones, Missi.

Bulls and Sac are similar, capped out teams with bad contracts mediocre talent.

The fact that the raptors have a player in the top 10 worst contract via realgm and 2 more HM should tell you something on a very Raptors-heavy forum.

I will agree that with the teams like BKN, Milwakee I am taking a more hopeful approach mostly because they have options unlike us. They can pivot, we have 3-4 albatrosses in the making.

[Duffman100]

:

Brooklyn has tons of cap space, and a high lottery pick coming this year with lots of youth. Can easily reload next year. I would say better.
Utah has picks, capspace, 2 potential A-tier talents. Utah is much better than we are.
Bucks still have Giannis, Giannis is worth more than our franchise.
Bulls are a push, we are basically the same team.
Sac is a push.
Charlotte is in a much better situation than us, its not particularly close. Lonzo has more talent than everyone in the raptors organization combined. Coupled with strong supporting talent from Miller and Knuppel. not even close.
Pelicans situation is similar to ours, aside from the fact that they have an S-tier player.

So what I just learned is, The raptors are godawful but so are few other teams barely.

Brooklyn's best prospect right now is denim and cap space and picks are all theoritical. They're in a rough shape

Utah has two A potential guys? Huh? They also have a team of mostly meh prospects

Bucks have no way to build around Gianni's any time soon.

Bulls and Sac are hardly pushes.

Lamelo isn't that good and the rest of the team is very meh as well. Still a 20 win team for the foreseeable future.

Pelicans "S tier player" can't stay on the court. So no it's not comparable.

You're completely overrating the 5 year future of these teams.

Brooklyn will be tanking next year in a loaded draft, the only long term contract they have is seen as a positive contract. Even though, there cap space and picks are theoretical at least they have that theory to play with. We have potentially 3 of the worst contracts according to realgm. They can tank and reload we cannot.

Lauri has put up some of the best stats prior to to this year, than anyone on our team. Also as much as I hate Bailey as a prospect, he does have high ceiling until proven otherwise. So yes 2 potential A level guys. They also have picks and capspace. So yes much better us.

Giannis/Turner and 3 WNBA players have a better chance at winning than our roster has constructed does in the next 5 years. And if Giannis is ever traded, it will bring in one of the biggest hauls in the NBA unless Nico Harris is also managing the Bucks.

Lamelo right sure isn't good, if traded would produce a bigger haul than any Raptors player. Brandon Miller is better any young player not named Barnes and is probably more valuable given the contract. You have Kon Knuppel as a cherry on top. See a significantly better outlook for this team in the next 2 years than the Raptors.

That S tier player, given his contract is worth more than any raptor right now. Much like Toronto, the pelicans have terrible contracts (Murray, Quickly, Barnes, Poole, Ingram) but they also good young players like Murphy, Jones, Missi.

Bulls and Sac are similar, capped out teams with bad contracts mediocre talent.

The fact that the raptors have a player in the top 10 worst contract via realgm and 2 more HM should tell you something on a very Raptors-heavy forum.

I will agree that with the teams like BKN, Milwakee I am taking a more hopeful approach mostly because they have options unlike us. They can pivot, we have 3-4 albatrosses in the making.

Again you're overrating every situation that isn't the Raptors and then focusing only on the negatives. It's a clearly incredibly biased view.

[Los_29]

Can I know about these teams aside from the Suns? Possibly PHI?

Brooklyn, Utah, Charlotte, Bucks, Bulls, Kings, Pelicans.

There's arguments for like 10 teams. All of these teams have various issues from not having any talent at all, do have mid level talent,etc

Brooklyn has tons of cap space, and a high lottery pick coming this year with lots of youth. Can easily reload next year. I would say better.
Utah has picks, capspace, 2 potential A-tier talents. Utah is much better than we are.
Bucks still have Giannis, Giannis is worth more than our franchise.
Bulls are a push, we are basically the same team.
Sac is a push.
Charlotte is in a much better situation than us, its not particularly close. Lonzo has more talent than everyone in the raptors organization combined. Coupled with strong supporting talent from Miller and Knuppel. not even close.
Pelicans situation is similar to ours, aside from the fact that they have an S-tier player.

So what I just learned is, The raptors are godawful but so are few other teams barely.

You’re grossly overrating these other teams. Virtually no one, even Jazz fans think they are in a good position. Their team is truly awful and they have no one their team with perennial all-star upside.

Nets have no all-stars and their roster is horribly constructed. Who cares about cap space when your team stinks. Who is going to sign there to play with Cam Thomas and Nic Claxton? lol.

Bucks are awful and are capped out. Don’t have their own picks. Who cares if they have Giannis. This thread isn’t about which team has the best player, it’s about what kind of future these teams have.

I’m not even going to address your Charlotte and NOP comments. Absolutely outrageous. Surely you aren’t being serious?

Add the Sixers, Suns, Bulls, Kings and you got quite a few teams in a worse position than us.

When looking at this stuff you have to look at existing talent and future draft capital. We have good young talent and all of our picks.

[OakleyDokely]

Basically any team without a top 5-10 player has no chance at a title, whether that team is treadmilling or tanking or something in-between. BRK just used up 5 1st rounders in one draft and unless one of those guys becomes a MVP candidate or close to one, the chances they stiff the 2nd round anytime soon is unlikely let alone win a title.

What separates the great franchises from the mediocre ones is the ability to bring in talent around the edges (value FA's, undervalued players through trade, drafting more rotation players than normal) and luck.

SA didn't outwork DET or CHA in the lottery to add Wemby. LAL weren't smarter than the 28 other teams because DAL wanted to trade him to one team. Crazy circumstances occurred that landed SGA in OKC and Kawhi in TOR. These aren't moves you can plan for. They just happen. Build the best team you can, add as much talent as you can and then you hope for some luck along the way.

Well, the Pacers almost won a title without a top 10 player.

ya, he's borderline, but he's for sure a 11-20 guy, who on his day, impacts the game at a very high level.

[HangTime]

The Raptors are going to play futuristic basketball, these guys can't even envision it. Every team has to look like 2025 or earlier.

The defensive version of the run and gun Suns.

My favourite 2 way line at the moment looks

Scottie/Ja'kobe/Ingram/CMB /Jakob

And yes, I think CMB and Jakob can work well together.

[StopitLeo]

Basically any team without a top 5-10 player has no chance at a title, whether that team is treadmilling or tanking or something in-between. BRK just used up 5 1st rounders in one draft and unless one of those guys becomes a MVP candidate or close to one, the chances they stiff the 2nd round anytime soon is unlikely let alone win a title.

What separates the great franchises from the mediocre ones is the ability to bring in talent around the edges (value FA's, undervalued players through trade, drafting more rotation players than normal) and luck.

SA didn't outwork DET or CHA in the lottery to add Wemby. LAL weren't smarter than the 28 other teams because DAL wanted to trade him to one team. Crazy circumstances occurred that landed SGA in OKC and Kawhi in TOR. These aren't moves you can plan for. They just happen. Build the best team you can, add as much talent as you can and then you hope for some luck along the way.

Well, the Pacers almost won a title without a top 10 player.

ya, he's borderline, but he's for sure a 11-20 guy, who on his day, impacts the game at a very high level.

I'd say one top 5 player or multiple top 10-20 players.

In most cases a team needs an MVP-calibre player (clear top 5) to be a legitimate Finals contender with rare exceptions. Those exceptions feature teams with a combination of multiple All-NBA/All-Defensive/All-Star level players (top 10-15) who had a "sum greater than the parts" performance; in recent history we have the 2025 Pacers (Siakam and Haliburton), the 2023 Heat (Bam and Jimmy), and the 2021 Suns (Booker and Paul). Going back further, the 2004 and 2005 Pistons—the only team with repeat Finals appearances—had Ben Wallace, Prince, and Billups.

So over the past 20 seasons there have arguably been only 4/5 teams without a clear MVP-level player who have made the Finals.

[OakleyDokely]

Well, the Pacers almost won a title without a top 10 player.

ya, he's borderline, but he's for sure a 11-20 guy, who on his day, impacts the game at a very high level.

I'd say one top 5 player or multiple top 10-20 players.

In most cases a team needs an MVP-calibre player (clear top 5) to be a legitimate Finals contender with rare exceptions. Those exceptions feature teams with a combination of multiple All-NBA/All-Defensive/All-Star level players (top 10-15) who had a "sum greater than the parts" performance; in recent history we have the 2025 Pacers (Siakam and Haliburton), the 2023 Heat (Bam and Jimmy), and the 2021 Suns (Booker and Paul). Going back further, the 2004 and 2005 Pistons—the only team with repeat Finals appearances—had Ben Wallace, Prince, and Billups.

So over the past 20 seasons there have arguably been only 4/5 teams without a clear MVP-level player who have made the Finals.

yup.

The only non top 10 guys to win finals MVP over last 20 years or so were Jaylen Brown and Iggy -- and both of those teams had top 10 players on their roster (Tatum/Curry). The list is basically littered with mvps, top 50 players of all-time.

[Yeezus_]

Zach and Rob also said they are still super bullish on Barnes.

[Duffman100]

Zach and Rob also said they are still super bullish on Barnes.

Very interested in Barnes with a healthy Quickley and Ingram along with the shooters (Shead, Dick, Walter, Battle) taking the next step. He could be poised for a monster season.