RealGM 2025 Greatest Peaks Project #1 — 2013 LeBron James

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Re: RealGM 2025 Greatest Peaks Project - #1 

Post#221 » by OldSchoolNoBull » Fri Jul 11, 2025 8:07 am

Doctor MJ wrote:It's understandable why people choose years like 1988 as Jordan's best given that Jordan was at his "Most Air Jordan" in that time frame. But I'm extremely impressed with the way Jordan adapted to Phil Jackson's Triangle. Had Jordan been either unable or unwilling to change to this more read & react style, it would have backfired, and Jordan would have likely been doomed to be that guy who people swore "Would have won it all if they could have given him good teammates?"...but of course, he'd have had the same teammates, he'd just not be able to make as good of a use for them as he could in a system like the Triangle.

Perhaps oddly, the fact that Jordan lacks the off-the-charts floor generalship of LeBron made something like this necessary for Jordan, but then because he embraced it, I believe it enabled Jordan's Bulls best years to blaze through with a level of consistent proficiency that I'm frankly in awe of.

If you asked me to name one team in NBA history as "Most ready for battle", I'd have to go with those Bulls coming with such an unusual level of intensity given their stature.


First of all, great post Doc.

With regards to the bolded:

I would argue that the necessity of the triangle wasn't simply due to Jordan lacking floor generalship, but also to a certain type of creation being less effective in the late 80s/early 90s than it would be in the mid-00s and beyond. If you look at LeBron(and Harden, and Luka, and others), a lot of his creation - not all, by any means, but a lot - is of a heliocentric drive-and-kick variety. Draw in the defense with your scoring gravity, kick out.

I think that this is the type of creation Jordan was attempting under Doug Collins. Just dominating the ball and passing out of doubles and triples or whatever. If we look at Jordan under Doug Collins, his assists got higher each of those three seasons, peaking with his 8apg 1988-89 campaign(and that was playoff-resilient, 7.6apg in 17 postseason games). I feel like if he'd kept playing that way, that number could've gone further up. But I don't think the team would've won.

Drive and kick has been very effective over the last 15-20 years because there have been plenty of shooters to kick out to. This wasn't the case in 1989 or 1991. The only players on the Bulls shooting any kind of volume from 3 in 1989 were Paxson and Hodges.

In 1988-89:

Pax attempted 3.8 3PA per 100 possessions in the regular season, and 3.3 per 100 possessions in the playoffs - while playing 22.3mpg and 18.9mpg respectively.

Hodges attempted 8.5 3PA per 100 possessions in the regular season, and 8.4 per 100 possessions in the playoffs - while playing 22.7mpg and 32.6mpg respectively, and starting every playoff game.

That's not a lot of attempts by today's standards, but it was a fair amount by 1989 standards.

So Doug Collins may have been trying to push some ahead-of-its-time offensive scheme with Jordan dominating the ball and those two guys taking a high-for-the-time number of threes, but it just didn't win. The 3PA for Pax and Hodges may have been a lot for the time, but it's not a lot in absolute terms, and they're still just two guys, one of whom wasn't good at a whole lot else beyond shooting. So the majority of Jordan's assists probably came from kicking inward or off to the side to a mid-range shooter(Pax, Grant) or someone in the post(Grant, Cartwright, Scottie) or hitting a slasher(Scottie). That probably made for an offense that was more predictable and bothered opposing defenses less than a modern drive-and-kick type offense would. Despite Jordan's 8apg, the Bulls only had the #12 offense in the league(of 25 teams at the time).

When the Bulls won their first title in 1990-91 under Jackson:

Pax attempted just 2.4 3PA per 100 possessions in the regular season and 1.6 per 100 possessions in the playoffs.

Hodges' 3PAs per 100 were more or less in line with his 1989 numbers, but his minutes had been drastically cut - 11.5mpg in the regular season and 12.3mpg in the playoffs.

They also had BJ Armstrong by then, who was a decent shooter, but hovered around 1 3PA per 100 possessions in both regular and post season.

So in the triangle, the heliocentricity of Jordan's game under Collins is de-emphasized, what little three point shooting there had been was de-emphasized, and instead constant ball movement is emphasized because that is what makes the offense less predicable and more difficult for opposing defenses to deal with.

I'm rambling a bit now, but my point is that I believe Jordan was capable of playing that kind of heliocentric floor general type of game, but that it just wasn't as effective - because it was too predictable and didn't stretch defenses enough - in those days without the volume of 3P shooting we've seen over the last 20 years, and that is another reason why the triangle was necessary.

Note that I am not suggesting that MJ and LeBron are equals as floor generals - I'm happy to give LeBron the edge - but rather that the gap is overstated as a result of LeBron playing what is in some ways a different game.

I realize this argument won't be compelling to most of the people here, but it's the way I see it.
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Re: RealGM 2025 Greatest Peaks Project - #1 

Post#222 » by One_and_Done » Fri Jul 11, 2025 9:44 am

The Bulls tried playing Jordan at point guard. It didn't work. The heliocentric stars of today aren't just scorers, they're guys who have legit point guard skills.

That's one of the bigger blockers for the old style of shooting guard. Today most shooting guards are either heliocentric guards you can run the offense through (i.e. point guards in effect), 3 point killers, or specialist role players. Jordan would be great today, but his role would definitely be suboptimal, because he isn't any of those things. The closest comp is Ant, and he isn't the best comp because he can bomb 3s at high efficiency and play off ball from the 3.

Anyone who takes an objective look at modern offenses will see Jordan isn't an ideal fit. Who plays in the backcourt next to him? He needs an actual point guard, but then Jordan wants to mostly be the focal point. How does that work? Then factor in the meh 3pt shooting, and it's a little hard to envision him optimised today. I like Jordan too, but the optimal way the game is played today does not suit him as well as it could.

Let's say you put a Jrue type next to him in the backcourt, to bring up the ball, feed Jordan, and play defense. That's certainly workable mechanically (though the diet of shots isn't ideal), but why? Wouldn't you rather have a traditional heliocentric guy who brings the ball up himself (e.g. Curry or Harden), and stick an off ball shooter next to them like Klay or Danny Green? It's more optimal.
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Re: RealGM 2025 Greatest Peaks Project - #1 

Post#223 » by ShotCreator » Fri Jul 11, 2025 1:58 pm

LeBrons clear step down years of the 2010s being voted for as GOAT, when we have the impact records showing guys like CP3 and Curry being within his RS baseline impact level is annoying me a little more than it should.

2010s LeBron was probably not that guy. Not overall. He had moments and spurts, as well as playoff stretches. I think if anything 2012 gets completely overlooked. That was his last truly high motor season of his career. The idea of coasting or gassing out was introduced for the first time after that year. Not as polished but the intensity in which he played with for 90 games that year hasn't been matched since.


But 2016 LeBron being better than 2013 LeBron just fails many logic tests, and 2013 LeBron being better than 2009 LeBron is kind of indefensible. LeBron loses a lot as a big muscular monster. He couldn't really navigate screens in 2013, he couldn't really make plays spontaneously off the dribble the way he could in 2010. His best play has always come when he's slimmer and more guard-like. 2017 LeBron, is better than 2016 LeBron for this reason. I'm generalizing but I'm right. As a general trend, LeBron is at his best as a big wing. Not a tweener big like in Miami.

I wonder when this LeBron mania will turn around on boards like this. Because we are in a completely different era for basketball nerds at this point. The enthusiasm is good but we are coming up on half the pages being arguments, not really discussions about the most minute LeBron factoids.


With all that said I would probably put 2009 LeBron down as my GOAT peak. But there's barely even an attempt at really fleshing out another player in this position ITT which is disappointing.
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Re: RealGM 2025 Greatest Peaks Project - #1 

Post#224 » by ReggiesKnicks » Fri Jul 11, 2025 2:03 pm

ShotCreator wrote:With all that said I would probably put 2009 LeBron down as my GOAT peak. But there's barely even an attempt at really fleshing out another player in this position ITT which is disappointing.


There is nothing stopping you from fleshing out other players, but if you think 2009 LeBron James is the GOAT Peak, why does it matter so much to you that other seasons are stealing the headline?

I see numerous well-thought-out and thorough votes for non-LeBron seasons, especially over the first couple pages of this thread.
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Re: RealGM 2025 Greatest Peaks Project - #1 

Post#225 » by ShotCreator » Fri Jul 11, 2025 2:14 pm

ReggiesKnicks wrote:
ShotCreator wrote:With all that said I would probably put 2009 LeBron down as my GOAT peak. But there's barely even an attempt at really fleshing out another player in this position ITT which is disappointing.


There is nothing stopping you from fleshing out other players, but if you think 2009 LeBron James is the GOAT Peak, why does it matter so much to you that other seasons are stealing the headline?

I see numerous well-thought-out and thorough votes for non-LeBron seasons, especially over the first couple pages of this thread.

Because it applies to this general trend that people are automatically assuming LeBron has to have the GOAT peak, regardless of whether or not they get the exact season right due to his wildly different levels and abilities across years.

2016 and 2010 LeBron are so different, considering we're talking about the same human being.

I ramble sometimes so let me try to make this simple: Basically, LeBron's clearly weaker seasons being picked as the best basketball seasons ever played, is just indicative of the kind of mania happening surrounding him on this board at this point.

I've never been apart of these projects, but I always found value in, not the obvious talk about 2000 Shaq, whatever year of Bron, Jordan, etc, but about the chances to get to understand more obscure GOATs better. Different POVs. Different eras.

There used to be posters who could really lay out a good Bill Walton as GOAT peak case. Really good Hakeem cases, really interesting takes. Seeing 2013 and 2016 LeBron being selected as the GOAT peak just indicates the decline in the quality of these discussions IMO.

BUT, I wouldn't say stop or anything. Those other threads still exist. But it is disappointing.
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Re: RealGM 2025 Greatest Peaks Project - #1 

Post#226 » by ReggiesKnicks » Fri Jul 11, 2025 2:32 pm

ShotCreator wrote:
ReggiesKnicks wrote:
ShotCreator wrote:With all that said I would probably put 2009 LeBron down as my GOAT peak. But there's barely even an attempt at really fleshing out another player in this position ITT which is disappointing.


There is nothing stopping you from fleshing out other players, but if you think 2009 LeBron James is the GOAT Peak, why does it matter so much to you that other seasons are stealing the headline?

I see numerous well-thought-out and thorough votes for non-LeBron seasons, especially over the first couple pages of this thread.

Because it applies to this general trend that people are automatically assuming LeBron has to have the GOAT peak, regardless of whether or not they get the exact season right due to his wildly different levels and abilities across years.

2016 and 2010 LeBron are so different, considering we're talking about the same human being.

I ramble sometimes so let me try to make this simple: Basically, LeBron's clearly weaker seasons being picked as the best basketball seasons ever played, is just indicative of the kind of mania happening surrounding him on this board at this point.

I've never been apart of these projects, but I always found value in, not the obvious talk about 2000 Shaq, whatever year of Bron, Jordan, etc, but about the chances to get to understand more obscure GOATs better. Different POVs. Different eras.

There used to be posters who could really lay out a good Bill Walton as GOAT peak case. Really good Hakeem cases, really interesting takes. Seeing 2013 and 2016 LeBron being selected as the GOAT peak just indicates the decline in the quality of these discussions IMO.

BUT, I wouldn't say stop or anything. Those other threads still exist. But it is disappointing.


This is my first time participating in this project and first time diving deep into this section of the forum rather than periodically browsing. I have read through some of the older threads, and I understand what you are getting at with other players.

I would push back on opinions on other seasons for LeBron James. You said yourself you want to see other players like Walton, Hakeem, Shaq, etc. Why is that any different than an argument for 2013 or 2016 LeBron James instead of 2009?

I am reading your post, and you don't see 2013 or 2016 LeBron James as his own peak, right? You probably don't see Hakeem or Walton as the GOAT Peak, yet you thought the takes were interesting. Do you somehow not see the interesting points in someone presenting 2013 or 2016 LeBron James as his peak? You yourself said comparing 2010 to 2016 LeBron James is comparing different players. Shaq, Walton, and Hakeem are all different players.

It seems like you are bored and tired of all the LeBron James discussion. If another player named Tim Horton was 2016 LeBron James, I am sure you would welcome it in this discussion, but because the name is LeBron James and not Tim Horton, you are waning on the current discussion.

TLDR: From my perspective, you seem to be complaining that people think different versions of LeBron James could be the GOAT Peak, yet at the same time want to see more seasons up for discussion as the GOAT peak, yet because it is seasons from LeBron James and not Bill Walton or Hakeem Olajuwon, you deem the discussion as declining.
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Re: RealGM 2025 Greatest Peaks Project - #1 

Post#227 » by Top10alltime » Fri Jul 11, 2025 2:34 pm

Chip wrote:
metta-tonne wrote:
MJ: ‘88 or '92

Despite having 6 chips through the 90s, I think his best season was '88, as did a few others in this thread. As someone mentioned already, he won MVP, Defensive MVP, and got the Scoring Title that season. Won't repeat his stats as it's above already, but arguably the best regular season of all time. If we want to focus on playoff performance, '92 must be mentioned as well.


Yeah I don’t know about that one friend:
https://sports.yahoo.com/a-closer-look-at-michael-jordans-1988-dpoy-award-raises-questions-about-its-validity-has-lebron-james-been-chasing-a-ghost-140452567.html

There’s a lot of um questionable Jordan stuff flying around to say the least. And that includes this thread tbh


Lmao, of course there’s controversy there, I still think he was unbelievable that regular season regardless of steal count, but that’s wild. If anything, just further solidifies LBJ at #1 for me (:


Kareem in 2 years (74 and 77) also is clearing peak Jordan (91). Here's the tracking (I'll do 77 Kareem later).

Top10alltime wrote:Hey guys I did tracking for 74 kareem game 6 finals.

https://youtu.be/vGVumTgLPqM

Offense -
0:24 - Kareem sets screen for Oscar
3:13 - Oscar inbounds ball to Kareem, tipped back to Oscar
3:32 - Kareem wins tipoff for OT
3:39 - Kareem receives ball in left block, to Dandridge who bricks shot. (+DTO) Cowens unable to control offensive rebound, Kareem turnover with 3 sec violation. (Kareem - 1 DTO)
5:20 - Robertson in to Kareem gets doubled, pass back to Roberston, who passes.
6:13 - Kareem looking like he tries to back down Cowens, who fouls him.
7:18 - Cowens boxed out Kareem for rebound
7:50 - Kareem receives ball to be tripled this time, back to Oscar. (+2 DTOs, +1 EDTO) Oscar makes high post shot. (Kareem - 3 DTOs, 1 EDTO, 1 creation)
9:20 - Oscar into Kareem, missed skyhook, draws defender at same time. Putback by someone I couldn't see.
10:05 - Kareem receives ball, Cowens pokes it away, for Kareem to make airballed long jumper.
11:40 - Kareem wins jumpball.
12:16 - Kareem wins tipoff for 2OT.
14:35 - Ball passed to Kareem, gets to pass to Dandridge who is doubled, bricked.
16:08 - Kareem doubled, fake pass. Hits skyhook over Cowens.
17:41 - Kareem receives ball from Oscar as he is doubled, leaving Oscar open, for enough time to move to make high post shot. (Kareem - 4 DTOs, 2 creation)
18:05 - Kareem fouled by Cowens, Cowens ejected out of game.
22:37 - Ball inbounded into Kareem, makes incredible game winning skyhook.

Defense -
1:40 - Kareem deflects ball pass from Havlicek to another Celtic player.
2:22 - JoJo White pass to Cowens on high post, Kareem guarding him. Cowens then heads to the right block for hook missed. (Kareem - 1 PP, 1 EPP)
4:06 - Kareem defends Cowen on outside, passes out.
5:57 - Havlicek drive into Kareem for a missed shot. (Kareem - 2 PP)
7:30 - Kareem on Cowens who passes down.
9:42 - Cowens left open on elbow for missed shot. (Kareem - 1 PPD, 1 IPPD)
10:15 - Kareem rotates on to Silas, possession cut since shot clock error.
11:07 - Kareem grabs defensive board, don't know why there should be jumpball there.
12:04 - Kareem lets Havlicek score uncontested shot after his own rebound. (Kareem - 3 PP, 1 IPP)
13:13 - Kareem on Cowens high post, pass to JoJo White.
13:42 - Kareem back on Cowens in high post, pass to JoJo White again. Back to Cowens, immediate swing to Chaney for bricked shot.
14:53 - Kareem attempt for steal, knocks out of bounds. Turnover.
16:26 - Kareem with late contest, Havlicek scores. (Kareem - 4 PP, 2 IPP)
17:01 - Nice job by Kareem there, Havlicek drawing two, doesn't stop drive. Kareem blocking hook-shot, but turnover again as he steps out of bounds.
17:54 - Kareem doesn't contest Havlicek shot, easy basket. (Kareem - 5 PP, 3 IPP)
21:15 - Would call this tough shot made by Havlicek, Kareem with good contest but Havlicek makes shot (Kareem - 6 PP, 2 EPP)

Final tally -

2 creations
4 DTOs
1 EDTOs

1 PPD
1 IPPD
6 PP
2 EPP
3 IPP

Around 19 possession of play here.


Top10alltime wrote:Guys I tracked MJ defense in 1989 cavs game 5.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/11bEM1GJzx6CV8ZXo_vZbFnoDMIM_w-7oJ3R8LSGu_AE/edit?usp=drivesdk

Stats:
9 PP
7 IPP

12 PPD
1 EPPD
8 IPPD
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Re: RealGM 2025 Greatest Peaks Project - #1 

Post#228 » by tsherkin » Fri Jul 11, 2025 2:54 pm

All right, time to register my votes for this one. Not the most substantial post I've ever written, which is unfortunate, but it'll allow me to get it out of the way and then dig back into the discussion.

Player #1: Bill Russell 1964

Best defense we've ever seen. Led the league in rebounding in the RS and then again in the PS (and went from like 25 to 27 rpg). Captained the team to a title with his dominant performance, after leading his team to the best record in the RS. We've never seen anything like Russell's era-relative impact defensively, nor anything like his team dominance. I don't subscribe to the idea that we should ignore earlier eras due to the differences between then and now, and Russell's run is the most dominant in league history, authored on the back of what he did as a rebounder and defender (and passer, at that).

Player #2: Magic Johnson 1990

Not quite Magic's scoring peak, but on top of his usual, he was bombing 3s, crushing it at the line, was a dominant playmaker, fully matured in his post game. One of his MVP seasons, and well-earned. An absolute unit leading another insane offense in his first season without Kareem.


Player #3: Nikola Jokic 2023

The wildest offensive RS we've ever seen, IMHO. A 25/12/10 season on 70% TS that turned into 30/14/10 still on 63% TS en route to a title and Finals MVP. Should have been the MVP. An insane mix of post game, shooting ability, court vision, rebounding and so forth.

HM: Kareem in several seasons, and too many others to mention, really. Lots of great choices.

EDIT: Am dumb; numbered correctly, placed out of order.
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Re: RealGM 2025 Greatest Peaks Project - #1 

Post#229 » by Verticality » Fri Jul 11, 2025 3:41 pm

I admit I agree I would have liked more discussion beyond Lebron but I think unfair to blame Lebron proponent. Isn't it natural to focus on the player you think is best?

I do not expect to see every player discussed with immense detail but at least Jordan I feel could have given more. It seems little superficial from his believers. I wanted more.

It would be nice to see more Jabbar introspection. I understand best defender and best attacker but i find it hard to vote with the years chosen over championship seasons. Maybe 71? It is dominant but is it a peak?
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Re: RealGM 2025 Greatest Peaks Project - #1 

Post#230 » by jalengreen » Fri Jul 11, 2025 3:56 pm

tsherkin wrote:All right, time to register my votes for this one. Not the most substantial post I've ever written, which is unfortunate, but it'll allow me to get it out of the way and then dig back into the discussion.

Player #1: Bill Russell 1964

Best defense we've ever seen. Led the league in rebounding in the RS and then again in the PS (and went from like 25 to 27 rpg). Captained the team to a title with his dominant performance, after leading his team to the best record in the RS. We've never seen anything like Russell's era-relative impact defensively, nor anything like his team dominance. I don't subscribe to the idea that we should ignore earlier eras due to the differences between then and now, and Russell's run is the most dominant in league history, authored on the back of what he did as a rebounder and defender (and passer, at that).

Player #3: Nikola Jokic 2023

The wildest offensive RS we've ever seen, IMHO. A 25/12/10 season on 70% TS that turned into 30/14/10 still on 63% TS en route to a title and Finals MVP. Should have been the MVP. An insane mix of post game, shooting ability, court vision, rebounding and so forth.

Player #2: Magic Johnson 1990

Not quite Magic's scoring peak, but on top of his usual, he was bombing 3s, crushing it at the line, was a dominant playmaker, fully matured in his post game. One of his MVP seasons, and well-earned. An absolute unit leading another insane offense in his first season without Kareem.


HM: Kareem in several seasons, and too many others to mention, really. Lots of great choices.


Don’t see Magic over LeBron very often, would be interested in your breakdown there.
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Re: RealGM 2025 Greatest Peaks Project - #1 

Post#231 » by Ambrose » Fri Jul 11, 2025 4:14 pm

ShotCreator wrote:LeBrons clear step down years of the 2010s being voted for as GOAT, when we have the impact records showing guys like CP3 and Curry being within his RS baseline impact level is annoying me a little more than it should.


2009 is the greatest carryjob of all time. I don't think 2009 LeBron is a better player than 2016 LeBron simply because he had to try harder in the regular season.
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Re: RealGM 2025 Greatest Peaks Project - #1 

Post#232 » by homecourtloss » Fri Jul 11, 2025 4:17 pm

Elpolo_14 wrote:
homecourtloss wrote:3. Duncan, 2003

Who was on this team creating this type of team? Duncan’s plus offense and GOAT level defense lifted a team to immense heights. I cannot think of very many scenarios in which this player wouldn't have the same results. Immense lift on both sides of the ball especially the playoffs.


Never thought someone else would've put Tim Duncan as 3rd nominations like I did. He was a demon on defense this year with great offense ability to carrying the Spurs load on both end. I do think Tim Duncan as Peak really is underappreciated.


I’ve become really, really high on Duncan and his basically inelastic impact. I’ve actually become higher on Magic and Wilt as well as far as peaks go. And I’m still really high on Jordan as a possible 4th or higher all time peak is clearly really good!
lessthanjake wrote:Kyrie was extremely impactful without LeBron, and basically had zero impact whatsoever if LeBron was on the court.

lessthanjake wrote: By playing in a way that prevents Kyrie from getting much impact, LeBron ensures that controlling for Kyrie has limited effect…
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Re: RealGM 2025 Greatest Peaks Project - #1 

Post#233 » by Special_Puppy » Fri Jul 11, 2025 4:19 pm

tsherkin wrote:All right, time to register my votes for this one. Not the most substantial post I've ever written, which is unfortunate, but it'll allow me to get it out of the way and then dig back into the discussion.

Player #1: Bill Russell 1964

Best defense we've ever seen. Led the league in rebounding in the RS and then again in the PS (and went from like 25 to 27 rpg). Captained the team to a title with his dominant performance, after leading his team to the best record in the RS. We've never seen anything like Russell's era-relative impact defensively, nor anything like his team dominance. I don't subscribe to the idea that we should ignore earlier eras due to the differences between then and now, and Russell's run is the most dominant in league history, authored on the back of what he did as a rebounder and defender (and passer, at that).

Player #2: Magic Johnson 1990

Not quite Magic's scoring peak, but on top of his usual, he was bombing 3s, crushing it at the line, was a dominant playmaker, fully matured in his post game. One of his MVP seasons, and well-earned. An absolute unit leading another insane offense in his first season without Kareem.


Player #3: Nikola Jokic 2023

The wildest offensive RS we've ever seen, IMHO. A 25/12/10 season on 70% TS that turned into 30/14/10 still on 63% TS en route to a title and Finals MVP. Should have been the MVP. An insane mix of post game, shooting ability, court vision, rebounding and so forth.

HM: Kareem in several seasons, and too many others to mention, really. Lots of great choices.

EDIT: Am dumb; numbered correctly, placed out of order.


At least you can say you aren't bucking to the conventional wisdom
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Re: RealGM 2025 Greatest Peaks Project - #1 

Post#234 » by falcolombardi » Fri Jul 11, 2025 4:19 pm

One_and_Done wrote:The Bulls tried playing Jordan at point guard. It didn't work. The heliocentric stars of today aren't just scorers, they're guys who have legit point guard skills.

That's one of the bigger blockers for the old style of shooting guard. Today most shooting guards are either heliocentric guards you can run the offense through (i.e. point guards in effect), 3 point killers, or specialist role players. Jordan would be great today, but his role would definitely be suboptimal, because he isn't any of those things. The closest comp is Ant, and he isn't the best comp because he can bomb 3s at high efficiency and play off ball from the 3.

Anyone who takes an objective look at modern offenses will see Jordan isn't an ideal fit. Who plays in the backcourt next to him? He needs an actual point guard, but then Jordan wants to mostly be the focal point. How does that work? Then factor in the meh 3pt shooting, and it's a little hard to envision him optimised today. I like Jordan too, but the optimal way the game is played today does not suit him as well as it could.

Let's say you put a Jrue type next to him in the backcourt, to bring up the ball, feed Jordan, and play defense. That's certainly workable mechanically (though the diet of shots isn't ideal), but why? Wouldn't you rather have a traditional heliocentric guy who brings the ball up himself (e.g. Curry or Harden), and stick an off ball shooter next to them like Klay or Danny Green? It's more optimal.


I think we got a good proof of concept now of what jordan would play like (not a exact copy obviously) in the modern game in shai and it led to a fairly strong regular season offense with not particularly strong offensive help to be fair
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Re: RealGM 2025 Greatest Peaks Project - #1 

Post#235 » by tsherkin » Fri Jul 11, 2025 4:25 pm

Special_Puppy wrote:At least you can say you aren't bucking to the conventional wisdom


That was extremely diplomatic of you :)
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homecourtloss
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Re: RealGM 2025 Greatest Peaks Project - #1 

Post#236 » by homecourtloss » Fri Jul 11, 2025 4:37 pm

homecourtloss wrote:1. LeBron James, 2016 (2009 > 2013 > 2012)

You can argue many different seasons as LeBron’s peak and the overall goat peak. I have gone back forth between 2009, 2013, and 2016. In 2009 he is a force of nature and in just about every game the Cavs played he would come out of the gate in the first quarter and physically impose his will on the game on both sides of the ball. +15 on court with THAT roster is absurd. Had the greatest box score run in playoffs history. I think had Ben Wallace not gotten injured, 2009 would be remembered differently. In 2013 he plays a different role and without an injured Wade in the playoffs posts an absurd +30 rORtg. But 2016 does it for me. He posts an absurd +13.5 or +14 rORtg on court (depending on various methods of calculation) while shouldering massive defensive responsibilities, a +20 on/off, lifts a defense by more than +7 per 100 possessions (the territory of ATG defensive bigs) and then defeats a 73 win team posting a nearly +30 on/off in the finals.

2. Kareem, 1977 (1974 > 1972)

Kareem is the only other player who has wide of a stretch of possible GOAT years. In 1977 he hits his offensive peak with inelastic efficiency and still a very good defender. Probably only Kareem and Wilt (maybe Duncan) can say they were the best offensive and defe dive player during a playoff run.

3. Duncan, 2003

Who was on this team creating this type of team? Duncan’s plus offense and GOAT level defense lifted a team to immense heights. I cannot think of very many scenarios in which this player wouldn't have the same results. Immense lift on both sides of the ball especially the playoffs.

HM 1: Jordan 1991. His best playoff + regular season run which was clear a great run!
HM 2: Shaq 2000


One of the things that gives me pause of not voting 2009 LeBron as his peak other than just the sheer force of nature impact in 2009 was how inelastic his impact was despite who and who wasn’t on court.

1. The supporting cast should not have been able to get this team to 66 wins and an 8+ SRS. One of the things that hurt was the injury to Big Ben who came back in the playoffs a shell of himself and was soon out of the league.

LeBron ON, West, Wallace, BigZ, Varejao OFF: +18.0
LeBron ON, Gibson, Szczerbiak, Pavlovic OFF: +15.7

with Vareajao OFF: +17.1
with BigZ OFF: +15.5
with Pavlovic OFF: +15.4
with West OFF: +14.2
with Gibson OFF: +13.8
with Mo OFF: +13.5
with Wallace OFF: +12.0

with BigZ and Varejao OFF, +18.2
with Varejao and Gibson OFF, +17.3
with Mo and West OFF, +13.0
with BigZ and Ben OFF, +12.0
with Ben and West OFF, +11.4
with Mo and Ben OFF, +10.6

without Ben Wallace, 1,802 minutes, +12.03
without Gibson, 2,003 minutes, +13.43
without Mo Williams, 836 minutes, +13.46 (Mo without James, 616 minutes, -3.25)
without West, 1,025 minutes, +14.21
without Illgauskas, 1,547 minutes, +14.45
without Szczerbiak, 2,151 minutes, +15.39
without Andy V., 1,195 minutes, +17.13

LeBron without Mo and Varejao, 309 minutes, +10.68; Mo and Varejao without LeBron, 388 minutes, -1.13
without Ben and Illgauskas, 1,000 minutes, +11.97
without Mo and West, 240 minutes, +12.99
without Ben and Varejao, 382 minutes, +13.54
without Ben, Andy, Big Z, 254 minutes, +15.73
lessthanjake wrote:Kyrie was extremely impactful without LeBron, and basically had zero impact whatsoever if LeBron was on the court.

lessthanjake wrote: By playing in a way that prevents Kyrie from getting much impact, LeBron ensures that controlling for Kyrie has limited effect…
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Re: RealGM 2025 Greatest Peaks Project - #1 

Post#237 » by Elpolo_14 » Fri Jul 11, 2025 4:38 pm

Verticality wrote:It would be nice to see more Jabbar introspection. I understand best defender and best attacker but i find it hard to vote with the years chosen over championship seasons. Maybe 71? It is dominant but is it a peak?


I would say 1977 > 1971 because of the floor rising Kareem provide with sub-par supporting cast who weren't suits to his play style as much as in 1971 with elite team build around him for contention. He have more responsibility and still maintain his value

Kareem also uplifted his productivity and play like he was possess in the playoffs even when his best teammates got hurt. While Kareem 1971 seem to be a bit more stoppable. I would argue that Kareem face better team and better player in 1977 ( the Rick Barry lead GSW in 1977 and Walton lead Blazer would beat the 1971 GSW / 1971 Lakers with Wilt but no Jerry west and Baylor / 1971 Bullets with unseld. IMO )
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Re: RealGM 2025 Greatest Peaks Project - #1 

Post#238 » by Elpolo_14 » Fri Jul 11, 2025 4:50 pm

AEnigma wrote:Voting will close sometime after 12:00PM EST on Friday, July 11. I have no issue extending the time to vote so long as discussion is strong — and for this thread that seems reasonably likely — but please try to vote within the first three days.


the second thread gonna start today or tomorrow instead ? Just wanna know if I should start writing by ballots or wait a bit longer
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Re: RealGM 2025 Greatest Peaks Project - #1 

Post#239 » by Djoker » Fri Jul 11, 2025 4:51 pm

Since he changed teams a lot, Lebron actually gave us some whole-season WOWY signals. Unlike the noisy little fragments that OhayoKD posts, these can actually tell us something. Of course, the rosters are still substantially different from season to season that there is still plenty of noise but at least they are some sort of signals especially when you average a few of them.

Lebron James - WOWY

Spoiler:
2003 Cavs: 17-65 record, -9.59 SRS
2004 Cavs: 35-47 record, -3.07 SRS
Delta: +18 wins, +6.52 SRS

2010 Cavs: 61-21 record, +6.17 SRS
2011 Cavs: 19-63 record, -8.88 SRS
Delta: +42 wins, +15.05 SRS

2010 Heat: 47-35 record, +1.99 SRS
2011 Heat: 58-24 record, +6.76 SRS
Delta: +11 wins, +4.77 SRS

2014 Heat: 54-28 record, +4.15 SRS
2015 Heat: 37-45 record, -2.92 SRS
Delta: +17 wins, +7.07 SRS

2014 Cavs: 33-49 record, -3.86 SRS
2015 Cavs: 53-29 record, +4.08 SRS
Delta: +20 wins, +7.94 SRS

2018 Cavs: 50-32 record, +0.59 SRS
2019 Cavs: 19-63 record, -9.39 SRS
Delta: +31 wins, +9.98 SRS

2018 Lakers: 35-47 record, -1.44 SRS
2019 Lakers: 37-45 record, -1.33 SRS
Delta: +2 wins, +0.11 SRS

Average: +20.1 wins, +7.35 SRS

Michael Jordan - WOWY

Spoiler:
1984 Bulls: 27-55 record, -4.69 SRS
1985 Bulls: 38-44 record, -0.50 SRS
Delta: +11 wins, +4.19 SRS

1993 Bulls: 57-25 record, +6.19 SRS
1994 Bulls: 55-27 record, +2.87 SRS
Delta: +2 wins, +3.32 SRS

1995 Bulls: 47-35 record, +4.32 SRS
1996 Bulls: 72-10 record, +11.80 SRS
Delta: +25 wins, +7.48 SRS

1998 Bulls: 62-20 record, +7.24 SRS
1999 Bulls: 21-61 record, -8.58 SRS (record prorated to 82-game season)
Delta: +41 wins, +15.82 SRS

2001 Wizards: 19-63 record, -6.75 SRS
2002 Wizards: 37-45 record, -1.58 SRS
Delta: +18 wins, +5.17 SRS

2003 Wizards: 37-45 record, -1.47 SRS
2004 Wizards: 25-57 record, -6.12 SRS
Delta: +12 wins, +4.65 SRS

Average: +18.2 wins, +6.77 SRS

Lebron with a slight edge as both guys showing an average of roughly +7 SRS.

By the way, I think Jordan is disadvantaged here since he has 2/6 data points from his Wizards years at age 38 to 40 whereas Lebron's last signal came at age 33/34. Lebron also joined two teams (Heat in 2010, Cavs in 2014) with one more star whereas Jordan always joined teams alone. Lebron has two teams that tanked after he left (2011 Cavs, 2019 Cavs) while Jordan has one (1999 Bulls). And Lebron will also give us at least one more WOWY signal when he retires and it's easy to see how that one could drag his average down. Jordan is also posting virtually the same delta despite playing on better teams on average. It's harder to improve a team that's already better. The average team above with Lebron has a +2.48 SRS while the average team with Jordan has a +4.14 SRS.

All in all, I'd say the context favors Lebron substantially with these WOWY metrics and yet his lead is almost non-existent.
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Re: RealGM 2025 Greatest Peaks Project - #1 

Post#240 » by One_and_Done » Fri Jul 11, 2025 4:58 pm

falcolombardi wrote:
One_and_Done wrote:The Bulls tried playing Jordan at point guard. It didn't work. The heliocentric stars of today aren't just scorers, they're guys who have legit point guard skills.

That's one of the bigger blockers for the old style of shooting guard. Today most shooting guards are either heliocentric guards you can run the offense through (i.e. point guards in effect), 3 point killers, or specialist role players. Jordan would be great today, but his role would definitely be suboptimal, because he isn't any of those things. The closest comp is Ant, and he isn't the best comp because he can bomb 3s at high efficiency and play off ball from the 3.

Anyone who takes an objective look at modern offenses will see Jordan isn't an ideal fit. Who plays in the backcourt next to him? He needs an actual point guard, but then Jordan wants to mostly be the focal point. How does that work? Then factor in the meh 3pt shooting, and it's a little hard to envision him optimised today. I like Jordan too, but the optimal way the game is played today does not suit him as well as it could.

Let's say you put a Jrue type next to him in the backcourt, to bring up the ball, feed Jordan, and play defense. That's certainly workable mechanically (though the diet of shots isn't ideal), but why? Wouldn't you rather have a traditional heliocentric guy who brings the ball up himself (e.g. Curry or Harden), and stick an off ball shooter next to them like Klay or Danny Green? It's more optimal.


I think we got a good proof of concept now of what jordan would play like (not a exact copy obviously) in the modern game in shai and it led to a fairly strong regular season offense with not particularly strong offensive help to be fair

Shai can run a low TO offense as point guard. As I just noted, Jordan can't do that.
Warspite wrote:Billups was a horrible scorer who could only score with an open corner 3 or a FT.

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