falcolombardi wrote:DraymondGold wrote: Hi f4p, falcolombardi
I'm not sure I agree with your take on Jordan's passing at all, falcolombardi. I'm actually a bit surprised by it. I was watching some of the 91 playoffs recently (a lot of the games are available on YouTube), and I was pretty consistently impressed with Jordan's passing.
For example:
1) 16:44
Layup pass from the 3 point line over 3 defenders. It’s a touch to the left of the guy, but it’s a crazy difficult pass to sneak through this opening and the defense, and he delivers with good vision and speed.
2) 19:31
Goes for the alleyoop pass form the top of the 3 point line. Another very difficult pass, that takes good vision and placement… just a split second too late, but this is a Trae Young level pass.
3) 21:18
Another layup pass from 5 feet behind the 3 point line. This one’s between 2 defenders, with the lookaway to fake out the defense
4) 29:35
Pick and roll left-to-right pocket pass through 2 defenders for the layup.
5) 32:57
Classic Jordan midair pass. Draws the double / soft-triple team, then passes out at the last second. It’s a touch low, but his teammate’s wide open if he wanted the midrange shot (and would have been even more open if he was a 3 point shooter today)
6) 33:53
Another layup pass around 3 defenders. Sees teammate cutting off ball and hits them at the perfect time.
I'm not sure I could confidently name 10 players who could make passes like 1, 2, 3, 5, 6.... and this is from just
one single quarter! These require vision (e.g. #6 requires seeing the cutter and thinking ahead faster than the defense can recover), they're difficult in timing and placement (e.g. #1 requires sneaking it through multiple defenders), they show passing ambition (e.g #2 is Trae-Young like in how ambitious it is), they're high-value passes (#1, 2, 3, 4, 6 are all layup passes on opportunities that wouldn't be generated otherwise), they show the ability to pass in the pick & roll which would be more valuable today (#4), they show Jordan's able to pass in dynamic situations (#5), they show he's able to pass easily out of double teams off his scoring threat (#4-6)....
I'm really not seeing this lack of lead-pass ability. Again, this is from just one random quarter I turned on.... and I see similar stuff in his other 91 games. Am I missing something? How do any one of these passes fit the profile of someone
who was just a "fairly 'basic' passer"?
Now to be fair, 91 was definitely one of his best passing playoffs. But people normally don't lose passing vision or passing accuracy as he gets older. To me, he just focused more on off-ball stuff as he got older, but if you put him with a coach that pushes him to pass more... I see no reason why he wouldn't be able to make pass #4 out of the pick and roll or pass #5 to a 3 point shooter, or pass #6 at the top of the 3 point line to a cutter.
This absolutely has potential as a heliocentric Top 5 player. It seems miles better than the stuff Durant or healthy Kawhi could ever do, and they're both capable of leading top-of-the-league offenses... and it's not like they're clearly better than Jordan as scorers or off-ball threats.
Do you disagree? I'd love to see film of Jordan's passing limitation if you have any
Hi draymond! Nice to talk with you again.
First and foremost i will point out the bolded parts are not the same meaning. I didnt say jordan was a bad passer or couldnt be a lead ball handler. I think that his vision was able of making the correct but basic reads. Which is good enough when you are a top 3 scorer ever
If the word basic sounds more harsh than it should it is unerstandable, but is the word i would use for when someone passing vision goes as far as doing the correct but obvious pass. Which to be kinda honest...most of those passes you highlighted are(more of that in a second, need to explain myself on this)
There is first a need of separating vision from scoring gravity. Jordan passed the former with flying colours but was imo more a solid passing grade at the former
A guy who is a great scorer but lacks a decent vision will waste great creation chances over and over in lieu of tough shots for himself, jordan had a solid enough vision that he could find most of those passing windows hence why he was a great proto helio in the late 80's with his huge scoring threat and offensive load. But he rarely found the "hidden gems" that better passers do
those often
hidden in plain sight by the less valuable but safer and clearer dimes or "lost great assist" chances to take a "good enough shot". Side effects of the shot first/pass second that led to his historical scoring seasons (
and low turnovers)
as those highest value assists often are more likely to be deflected or stolen, there is a reason most passers dont want or cannot go for them well enough
There are many aspects to creation.
1- One is not taking shots where a
pass would do better to your team, jordan failed this at a relatively high rate when a "good enough" shot was available to him. Times where he takes a good pull up where a teammate had a better spot up.
2-Another is not making
overt mistakes, those where a player goes for a near impossible shot rather than passing (jordan did this a ton before cleaning up around 87) makes a terrible pass to nowhere,etc. Jordan cleaned these up after his first seasons which is how a player goes from a weak passer to a solid, average capable one like jordan did
3-The next one is
precision, the ability to make passes others wouldnt dare to makr threading a narrow path of rival bodies and limbs. Jordan attempts one in the lob you mention but failed to thread the needle (trae young who you mention threads those lobs or other kind of high precision passes consistently but trae young is actually a fairly high standard of a passer to compare to jordan here)
4- the most flashy one is finding the
really hidden passes nobody else would see or imagine and frequently seeing them and imagining them. The ones that magic or bird were iconic for but that nash doncic, lebron and others can find with some frequency. These ones that in my analysis jordan rarely made
To look at your examples
16:44 pause the video at roughly the start
16:48 and see how there is a wide open bulls player in the paint clear for everyone to see right in front of jordan field of vision. Is the correct read but is also the obvious one a coach would be angry at his players for missing. Is the right choice of course but is not particularly impressive to send the ball to your teammate totally alone under ths paint right across you
19:31 the lob attempt, the right idea but execution is a bit off the mark. I dont blame jordan for missing the hard but high value pass slighlty...but i know that trae or luka or harden hit those a majority of the time which is another component of why they are better passers
21:18 this is the best pass of the six, as jordan finds the better pass to the interior with grant over the corner 3 and seems to
regognize that divac is going to the corner leaving a easy score for horace but if you pause at
21:21 is still a easy one
with a open grant (his defender is basi prop in that angle as he "fronts" him) a inmefective double team that is so far enough that jordan has a comfortable straight line pass in a straight field of vision to make over the two lakers players. As divac is going to guard the corner shooter.
Good pass but one i would
expect an starting ball handler make nearly every time
29:40 another good and correct pass that i would expect my ball handler to almost always be able to make in that situation (having the scoring pressure or athletism to create the opening is a different question)as is not exactly that small of a window
is a precise pass quickly delivered but not exactly passing through a narrow corridor of arms, is the kind of good and correct read that is the expected
baseline of a modern heliocentric star to be seen as a great passer. Pause at 29:39 and see that the closest rival arms in the ball path is the guard running -
behind- jordan who is in no good position/angle to challenge the passing angle even
Jordan obviously stops his momentum while the chasing guard doesnt so it looks like a tighter window it was
32:57 kinda tricky to evaluate. On one side jordan went for the ultra tough shot but then he managed to pass in the air to keep the play moving
If you think he did it on purpose to draw the defense attention it would be a impressive pass but it honestly seems more like a mistake that his athletism and hand size let him solve along some luck that there was a teammate in the right spot for a bailout kick out
Either way it was a score created by jordan
scoring pressur more than great vision or anticipation (unless we think he had planed a 3d chess move to pass in the air from the start)
33:53 nice awareness to notice the cutting player getting in position for a pass, easily a good and correct pass but you overstate a fair bit the "3 player wall" im fromt of him a fair bit.
Good but not -great- pass as he recognizes his teammate (again, right in fromt of his field of vision) moving into scoring position and delivers an accurate pass to him.
All of these are good passes, correct reads.(even the bailout pass in the air once he got himself there) but neither is
remarkable, they are 6's, 7's maybe one or two 8's. But not the 9's and 10's that the best passers do with relative frequency
Jordan was an all time scorer with huge scoring pressure om defenses and athletism so he could create these "6's and 7's" and maybe some "8's, the kind of assist profile i would
expect of an average nba ball handler guard if the
average nba guard could score and create off his scoring threat at industrial quantities like jordan
But modern star helios are expected to do those highlight "9's and 10's" assists too, make those though lob passes consistently and not prioritize their own "good enough scoring options" at the expense of better shots for teammates
