Peak Mark Eaton time travels to the current league, does he play?

[frica]

Stockton finished his career with 0.161 MVP vote shares.
Only a few spots down you have Mark Price with 0.107 vote shares, despite a much shorter career.
Isiah Thomas has 0.317 for reference.

Despite his extreme longevity, outlasting most of his adversaries he was never the best point guard.

[giberish]

Eaton was a MASSIVE liability on offense.

Is that a fact.

Care to explain how over a 9 year period a player that averaged missing just 3 FGA/g and committing just 1.5 TO/g, yet lead his team in offensive rebounds, was as you claim?

See the post from colts18 earlier in this thread

He's a huge reason why the Jazz were mediocre at best on offense

Those 9 seasons Utah ranked 15th in the league in offensive efficiency (105.8 pts/100poss scored) out of 27 teams. That's average, not mediocre.

Mediocre = near middle = average

yes he was also a big plus on defense but they largely canceled out

Yet despite ranking just 15th in offensive efficiency as a team they somehow had the 5th best winning percentage in the league over that time.

How does an average offensive team win so many games then? Because they were - by far - the best team defensively, due primarily to Eaton.

But somehow that "cancels out"? I'm guessing math was not your strong suit in school.

Replace Eaton's minutes with league average center offense and league average center defense and Utah's offense gets much better while their defense gets much worse. It's not that complicated. You want to give Eaton credit for his defense while implying the offensive limitations were due to other guys.

If Eaton's defense drops to just 'very good' he doesn't get on the court.

Perhaps, but he was on the court - a lot - because his defense wasn't just 'very good', it was great. Those 9 seasons he played the 4th most total minutes among all Cs in the league despite scoring just 6.4 pts/g. Only Malone, Parish, and Laimbeer played more.

He played a lot of minutes because he stayed healthy and the quality of the Jazz overall roster around Stockton and Malone was very poor so they didn't have a lot of other options (league average would have been a big upgrade on Jeff Malone). The Jazz supporting cast of this era is wildly overrated. Two top-15 players playing 82 games a year and they could only drag the team to 50 wins. With a credible (though not elite) supporting cast older versions of Stockton and Malone were regularly over 60 wins.

Of course back to the OP. I expect that Eaton's defense in the modern NBA drops from elite (no one's disputing that he was elite in his era) to very good or perhaps just above average. Given his terrible offense if he's down to very good on defense he's 3rd string, if he's merely above average he's out of the league.

[One_and_Done]

Eaton was a MASSIVE liability on offense.

Is that a fact.

Care to explain how over a 9 year period a player that averaged missing just 3 FGA/g and committing just 1.5 TO/g, yet lead his team in offensive rebounds, was as you claim?

See the post from colts18 earlier in this thread

He's a huge reason why the Jazz were mediocre at best on offense

Those 9 seasons Utah ranked 15th in the league in offensive efficiency (105.8 pts/100poss scored) out of 27 teams. That's average, not mediocre.

Mediocre = near middle = average

yes he was also a big plus on defense but they largely canceled out

Yet despite ranking just 15th in offensive efficiency as a team they somehow had the 5th best winning percentage in the league over that time.

How does an average offensive team win so many games then? Because they were - by far - the best team defensively, due primarily to Eaton.

But somehow that "cancels out"? I'm guessing math was not your strong suit in school.

Replace Eaton's minutes with league average center offense and league average center defense and Utah's offense gets much better while their defense gets much worse. It's not that complicated. You want to give Eaton credit for his defense while implying the offensive limitations were due to other guys.

If Eaton's defense drops to just 'very good' he doesn't get on the court.

Perhaps, but he was on the court - a lot - because his defense wasn't just 'very good', it was great. Those 9 seasons he played the 4th most total minutes among all Cs in the league despite scoring just 6.4 pts/g. Only Malone, Parish, and Laimbeer played more.

He played a lot of minutes because he stayed healthy and the quality of the Jazz overall roster around Stockton and Malone was very poor so they didn't have a lot of other options (league average would have been a big upgrade on Jeff Malone). The Jazz supporting cast of this era is wildly overrated. Two top-15 players playing 82 games a year and they could only drag the team to 50 wins. With a credible (though not elite) supporting cast older versions of Stockton and Malone were regularly over 60 wins.

Of course back to the OP. I expect that Eaton's defense in the modern NBA drops from elite (no one's disputing that he was elite in his era) to very good or perhaps just above average. Given his terrible offense if he's down to very good on defense he's 3rd string, if he's merely above average he's out of the league.

You sound completely unobjective here. Jeff Malone was a 2 time all-star, who led 2 Bullets teams to the playoffs (both of which won more when he played). He was basically the same guy in Utah, just with a lesser role as the 3rd option. Calling him a huge downgrade on a league average player is clearly ridiculous.

[penbeast0]

You sound completely unobjective here. Jeff Malone was a 2 time all-star, who led 2 Bullets teams to the playoffs (both of which won more when he played). He was basically the same guy in Utah, just with a lesser role as the 3rd option. Calling him a huge downgrade on a league average player is clearly ridiculous.

Even in Washington, Jeff Malone was a classy player and one of the few reasons to watch those Washington teams. However, he was below league average efficiency in both those All-Star seasons nor was he good at any other facets of the game; basically a healthy Brad Beal without a three point shot (His highest volume 3 point shooting year in Utah, he average 0.2 3PA/100 possessions). He was actually more efficient in Utah than he had been in Washington, though his volume was down significantly. And again, he offered little outside of midrange scoring.

I'm a bit surprised One_and_Done is defending him.

[One_and_Done]

You sound completely unobjective here. Jeff Malone was a 2 time all-star, who led 2 Bullets teams to the playoffs (both of which won more when he played). He was basically the same guy in Utah, just with a lesser role as the 3rd option. Calling him a huge downgrade on a league average player is clearly ridiculous.

Even in Washington, Jeff Malone was a classy player and one of the few reasons to watch those Washington teams. However, he was below league average efficiency in both those All-Star seasons nor was he good at any other facets of the game; basically a healthy Brad Beal without a three point shot (His highest volume 3 point shooting year in Utah, he average 0.2 3PA/100 possessions). He was actually more efficient in Utah than he had been in Washington, though his volume was down significantly. And again, he offered little outside of midrange scoring.

I'm a bit surprised One_and_Done is defending him.

If you want to compare him to Beal that's good with me. Beal was a great player, and a legit all-star. I'd love to have prime Beal as the 3rd option on my team.

[eminence]

He should really use his powers for something other than playing basketball.

[70sFan]

You sound completely unobjective here. Jeff Malone was a 2 time all-star, who led 2 Bullets teams to the playoffs (both of which won more when he played). He was basically the same guy in Utah, just with a lesser role as the 3rd option. Calling him a huge downgrade on a league average player is clearly ridiculous.

Even in Washington, Jeff Malone was a classy player and one of the few reasons to watch those Washington teams. However, he was below league average efficiency in both those All-Star seasons nor was he good at any other facets of the game; basically a healthy Brad Beal without a three point shot (His highest volume 3 point shooting year in Utah, he average 0.2 3PA/100 possessions). He was actually more efficient in Utah than he had been in Washington, though his volume was down significantly. And again, he offered little outside of midrange scoring.

I'm a bit surprised One_and_Done is defending him.

Jeff Malone joined Utah in 1991 when Eaton was 34 and was at the end of his career. Also, saying that Malone "led" teams with Gus Williams, Rulland and later Moses Malone is quite strange. It's even stranger that it's such an accomplishment that he "led" his team to 37 wins.

Jeff wasn't bad for 3rd player, but he has very little overlap with Eaton and he wasn't good as an "all-star" at all.

[FrodoBaggins]

Late, but I'll get in on this. You can’t expect Eaton’s play in the 80s to transfer to now. Eaton’s league was, indeed, faster—but as others have noted, there was much (much!) less spacing and perimeter play by centers. Eaton got a lot of blocks for the same reason Cs in the 60s and 70s got a lot of blocks. There was no three—or a little used three—so there were more shots at the hoop. A center could camp in the paint and have much more of an impact 40 years ago. I just don't think that's true now. There were 80 shots a game inside the three point line in 1985, when Eaton has best year in blocks. Last year there were less than 52; nearly 40% fewer. Eaton was not mobile and not a help guy. Cut his blocks by 40%; could he make them up?? I'm not feeling it.

The Zach Edey comparison is interesting … because the physical problems with Edey are the problems brought up for Eaton; slow afoot, below average quickness. But Edey is still much better laterally than Eaton, and he has real, verifiable, obvious skills on both ends. Eaton blocked shots and there were lots of shots to block. But Eaton didn’t rebound particularly well, didn’t pass well, and no discernible offensive moves. I just don’t see a guy like that averaging more than 15 minutes a game. In certain matchups, he’d play more. Against some lineups, he’d be completely unplayable. The same is true for Edey, but (much) less so IMO … and Zach Edey still only averaged 21 mpg last year.

Edey's minutes had less to do with his ability & more to do with MEM's unique rotation under former head coach Taylor Jenkins & his assistant Noah LaRoche. Zach played 27.9 mpg over the last 8 RS games under new coach Tuomas Iisalo. It goes up to 30.0 mpg if you remove the game against BOS (2025-03-31), where he experienced foul trouble. He also played 27.3 mpg over 4 postseason games against OKC.

[FrodoBaggins]

How big of a liability was Eaton on offense? His box score certainly didn't inspire confidence, but his small-but-growing 85-96 RAPM sample from Squared2020 suggests otherwise.

38. Mark Eaton (+0.31 ORAPM; +1.70 DRAPM) [84 GP]

Should be taken with a HUGE grain of salt, but it's interesting, nonetheless. He's comfortably the highest-ranked defensive specialist so far. For comparison, Manute Bol is -1.43 ORAPM; +2.03 DRAPM from a 76-game sample. Only D-Rob (+2.12), Ewing (+2.08), Bol (+2.03), Scott Williams (+1.91), and Charles Smith LAC (+1.77) have higher DRAPM values. Hakeem has the same (+1.70). Only Robinson, Olajuwon, and Ewing are above in total RAPM.

I don't know what years the games are coming from and what the team performance (SRS, W/L, MOV) was. But is it possible Mark wasn't as big of an offensive liability as his box score and advanced statistics suggest?

[FrodoBaggins]

Three modern physical comparisons stick out: Zach Edey, Donovan Clingan, & Brook Lopez.

Size-wise, he's comparable to Edey but with more standing reach. He's legitimately Wemby-like in that regard; a 10-foot measurement looks likely per the game footage. That's +4.5" more than Edey & Clingan, and +7.0" on Lopez. Can't understate how much of a difference that makes - it lowers the threshold of required mobility & increases the margin of error for positioning.

Athletically/mobility-wise, he's more like Clingan & Lopez. Edey actually has really impressive raw athleticism. Check out his 3/4 court sprint, lane agility, shuttle run, and standing & max vertical leaps. Has some alley oops that showcase his above-the-rim ability. However, Eaton has superior reflexes, short-range fluidity, hands, timing, and feel protecting the paint, similar to Donovan & Brook. However, Edey showed huge improvements over his rookie year.

2019-20 MIL had a -7.7 rDRtg with Lopez playing deep drop rarely leaving the paint. The defensive strategy under Bud was to give up threes, which they did at a league-best rate. Won a championship a year later with a -6.7 DRtg compared to the playoff average. -4.7 compared to the RS league average. Opponent-adjusted playoff DRtg: 96.6 DRtg vs. Miami (-14.6 [4 GP]), 104.7 DRtg vs. Brooklyn (-13.6 [7 GP]), 106.3 DRtg vs. Atlanta (-9.4 [6 GP]), and 109.3 DRtg vs. Phoenix (-7.9 [6 GP]).

I think Mark would be a great defender today. Stick him with a Jaren Jackson Jr., Giannis, Mobley, Chet, or Anthony Davis and you might have a really good defense. Comparable to MIL 2019-2021, potentially.

[giordunk]

Useful rotational big on good teams, starter on teams with no center. With enough playing time and touches could turn into something else.

[SportsGuru08]

If Zaza Pachulia -who makes Luc Longley look like a superstar by comparison- can be the starting center on the so-called "greatest team ever" then Mark Eaton certainly has a place in today's game.

[kcktiny]

'
For those who want to appreciate watching one of the league's greatest defenders ever:

11-28-1984 lal 114 uta 109 eaton 34 min 10 pts 11 rebs 6 bs

Watch on YouTube

;list=PLUeR4o-3FMfot0OJVRzNjB6JbkNMkaZFj&index=1

3-9-1985 uta 111 chi 105 eaton 42 min 11 pts 12 rebs 5 bs

Watch on YouTube

;list=PLUeR4o-3FMfot0OJVRzNjB6JbkNMkaZFj&index=2

4-26-1985 hou 96 uta 94 eaton40 min 8 pts 10 rebs 10 bs

Watch on YouTube

;list=PLUeR4o-3FMfot0OJVRzNjB6JbkNMkaZFj&index=4

12-4-1985 lal 131 uta 127 eaton 27 min 11 pts 2 rebs 6 bs

Watch on YouTube

;list=PLUeR4o-3FMfot0OJVRzNjB6JbkNMkaZFj&index=8

3-14-1986 uta 146 san 121 eaton 38 min 7 pts 12 rebs 8 bs

Watch on YouTube

;list=PLUeR4o-3FMfot0OJVRzNjB6JbkNMkaZFj&index=12

4-5-1986 uta 114 por 103 eaton 43 min 12 rebs 8 bs

Watch on YouTube

;list=PLUeR4o-3FMfot0OJVRzNjB6JbkNMkaZFj&index=13

1-30-1988 uta 115 atl 109 eaton 40 min 5 pts 14 rebs 8 bs

Watch on YouTube

;list=PLUeR4o-3FMfot0OJVRzNjB6JbkNMkaZFj&index=19

5-10-1988 uta 101 lal 97 eaton 43 min 6 pts 12 rebs 7 bs

Watch on YouTube

;list=PLUeR4o-3FMfot0OJVRzNjB6JbkNMkaZFj&index=23

11-13-1990 chi 84 uta 82 eaton 34 min 2 pts 8 rebs 6 bs

Watch on YouTube

;list=PLUeR4o-3FMfot0OJVRzNjB6JbkNMkaZFj&index=42

[Dr Positivity]

Maybe a 3rd center.

[One_and_Done]

Stockton wasn't a top 50 defender ever tbh.

[ShotCreator]

If Zaza Pachulia -who makes Luc Longley look like a superstar by comparison- can be the starting center on the so-called "greatest team ever" then Mark Eaton certainly has a place in today's game.

Zaza was a good defender his whole career. Just not in a conventional way. Same for Luc Longley. Kerr and Jackson wouldn't have started them on loaded teams if they were actual mediocre oafs.

[Warspite]

Eaton was a very good post defender and space eater. Post defense is no longer valued unless you are PG. If this era had SHaq, DRob, Dream, Ewing, Duncan, Parish, Moses and Ruland all playing then he would have a ton of value.

[OhayoKD]

How big of a liability was Eaton on offense? His box score certainly didn't inspire confidence, but his small-but-growing 85-96 RAPM sample from Squared2020 suggests otherwise.

38. Mark Eaton (+0.31 ORAPM; +1.70 DRAPM) [84 GP]

Should be taken with a HUGE grain of salt, but it's interesting, nonetheless. He's comfortably the highest-ranked defensive specialist so far. For comparison, Manute Bol is -1.43 ORAPM; +2.03 DRAPM from a 76-game sample. Only D-Rob (+2.12), Ewing (+2.08), Bol (+2.03), Scott Williams (+1.91), and Charles Smith LAC (+1.77) have higher DRAPM values. Hakeem has the same (+1.70). Only Robinson, Olajuwon, and Ewing are above in total RAPM.

I don't know what years the games are coming from and what the team performance (SRS, W/L, MOV) was. But is it possible Mark wasn't as big of an offensive liability as his box score and advanced statistics suggest?

I don't know why you're using basically non-existent RAPM data

[FrodoBaggins]

How big of a liability was Eaton on offense? His box score certainly didn't inspire confidence, but his small-but-growing 85-96 RAPM sample from Squared2020 suggests otherwise.

38. Mark Eaton (+0.31 ORAPM; +1.70 DRAPM) [84 GP]

Should be taken with a HUGE grain of salt, but it's interesting, nonetheless. He's comfortably the highest-ranked defensive specialist so far. For comparison, Manute Bol is -1.43 ORAPM; +2.03 DRAPM from a 76-game sample. Only D-Rob (+2.12), Ewing (+2.08), Bol (+2.03), Scott Williams (+1.91), and Charles Smith LAC (+1.77) have higher DRAPM values. Hakeem has the same (+1.70). Only Robinson, Olajuwon, and Ewing are above in total RAPM.

I don't know what years the games are coming from and what the team performance (SRS, W/L, MOV) was. But is it possible Mark wasn't as big of an offensive liability as his box score and advanced statistics suggest?

I don't know why you're using basically non-existent RAPM data

Worth a mention. You can interpret it how you want & decide what it means.

[FrodoBaggins]

Old Mark was part of some solid offenses under Jerry Sloan. +2.2 ORtg in 1989-90 (82 GS, 27.8 MPG, 2281 MP), +4.0 ORtg in 1991-92 (81 GS, 25.0 MPG, 2023 MP).