Josh Giddey Thread 2.0

[ShouldaPaidBG]

we should be thanking our lucky stars that we can get him for only 30

[waffle]

Giddey is below average at D, I get it. But LOTS of superstars are average or below.
he's 22
His shooting, which surely had been an issue previously, was actually decent the 2nd 1/2. PASSABLE

OTHER THAN THAT, he's well above average for his position

A good GM, in my humble opinion, could build a team that would make Giddey a Superstar and also be a winning team. Do we have such a GM?

..................Ah, to me, there's the rub - as Shakespeare said.

I don't think AK has it in him. Too set in his ways, too conservative. Too ... dull.

that's not Giddey's fault

I hope the sign him. I hope that somehow AK falls into a good situation to put around him. Confidence? Not high

[MisterRoy]

They need to stop being cheap and pay the kid. Sheesh.

No one should ever be excited about their FO just paying people thoughtless with no negotiation, especially when there is a 0% chance they can sign anywhere else for even half what you can pay them. It's like people saying they shouldn't be cheap with Zach before giving him a max deal then 2 years later everyone is like this is a terrible contract.

They should negotiate in good faith and offer him something reasonable, no reason to just cave in to whatever Giddey wants, and given we've really heard almost nothing about the negotiations except very vague impressions that Giddey wants 30M, it's hard to say who is being more unreasonable.

I am not saying to just give him what he wants. I think what he wants is reasonable and that he is worth it. AKME should make it painless and just pay him because he is worth it. Why create drama over it?

[dougthonus]

That would be fine if people were saying they're not willing to pay him. They're not. They're saying he should take less. So you can throw out all the other issues. If you're fine with him starting at $20 mill, you're fine with him starting. Either you want him or not.

FWIW, that seems objectively false and easily disproven. The money always matters unless you are a clear max player, there is always a price. I mean would you pay Giddey the max right now? If not, then I guess you don't like him by your own logic. The fact that your line is in one place and someone else has a line in a different place doesn't mean your line is correct and everyone else is wrong.

We have a huge advantage of a market with no money and we're pressing the hell out of it. Argue if you want, no way Giddey doesn't get more if he goes to FA next summer. Much more. All these arguments about what he's worth, he'd have an offer the first minute of FA next summer.

I mean there are lots of ways he doesn't get more next summer, this is also objectively false. Also, you have no idea how hard we are pressing or what we are offering or what Giddey is asking. Neither do I. You've created this narrative in your head. It might be true of course, but it also might not be.

Can't make skills and fit the issue if you're willing to pay him $20-$25 mill to start. Contracts are based primarily on contracts given to comparable players. Comparable players with whatever issues you feel Giddey has still get paid. He's not supposed to accept less than his peers because fans don't like X or Y.

1: There are no comparable players to Giddey.
2: I think Giddey will negotiate for the best deal he can, then make the best decision for himself whatever that is.

There is no "supposed to" because fans want something. Fan desires aren't in this one way or the other. Fans aren't negotiating with him. You've got two sides with elite negotiators trying to come to a deal.

His fair market value is probably quite easily $30+ mill. He can accept the QO. So don't sign him if you don't want him leading the team, but don't say he's worth less but you'll still take him.

Anyone is free to come up with their own view of his worth. You just stating your opinion as a fact doesn't make it a fact.

Anybody here who's happy if Utah offers him $30 mill, he accepts it and leaves, we get nothing, raise your hand. If he's not worth $30 mill, no big loss.

We easily replace him with another $30 mill player. We can maybe grab Norman Powell (33), Anfernee Simons (27), Collin Sexton (27), or CJ McCullum (34) in FA next summer with that money we're saving. Of course, we once again don't have a point guard (except Sexton) to lead the offense, like the Bulls of the last 3 years, but who cares? We saved 5 mill by lowballing and losing Giddey! Not budging from that $25 mill.

If we lose Giddey, I would think we'd pivot towards a full rebuild, and given I think the Giddey Bulls have very little upside, that thought doesn't scare me. If we are hell bent on making the play-in/1st round, then losing Giddey will hurt, but I'm not hell bent on that.

Even better! He accepts the QO, plays great, then we give him $40-$50 mill AAV in 2026 to re-sign him. Now that's cooking with fire!

Certainly a risk, though a small one, but the Bulls do take a risk if he takes the QO as does Giddey.

[Infinity2152]

That would be fine if people were saying they're not willing to pay him. They're not. They're saying he should take less. So you can throw out all the other issues. If you're fine with him starting at $20 mill, you're fine with him starting. Either you want him or not.

FWIW, that seems objectively false and easily disproven. The money always matters unless you are a clear max player, there is always a price. I mean would you pay Giddey the max right now? If not, then I guess you don't like him by your own logic. The fact that your line is in one place and someone else has a line in a different place doesn't mean your line is correct and everyone else is wrong.

We have a huge advantage of a market with no money and we're pressing the hell out of it. Argue if you want, no way Giddey doesn't get more if he goes to FA next summer. Much more. All these arguments about what he's worth, he'd have an offer the first minute of FA next summer.

I mean there are lots of ways he doesn't get more next summer, this is also objectively false. Also, you have no idea how hard we are pressing or what we are offering or what Giddey is asking. Neither do I. You've created this narrative in your head. It might be true of course, but it also might not be.

Can't make skills and fit the issue if you're willing to pay him $20-$25 mill to start. Contracts are based primarily on contracts given to comparable players. Comparable players with whatever issues you feel Giddey has still get paid. He's not supposed to accept less than his peers because fans don't like X or Y.

1: There are no comparable players to Giddey.
2: I think Giddey will negotiate for the best deal he can, then make the best decision for himself whatever that is.

There is no "supposed to" because fans want something. Fan desires aren't in this one way or the other. Fans aren't negotiating with him. You've got two sides with elite negotiators trying to come to a deal.

His fair market value is probably quite easily $30+ mill. He can accept the QO. So don't sign him if you don't want him leading the team, but don't say he's worth less but you'll still take him.

Anyone is free to come up with their own view of his worth. You just stating your opinion as a fact doesn't make it a fact.

Anybody here who's happy if Utah offers him $30 mill, he accepts it and leaves, we get nothing, raise your hand. If he's not worth $30 mill, no big loss.

We easily replace him with another $30 mill player. We can maybe grab Norman Powell (33), Anfernee Simons (27), Collin Sexton (27), or CJ McCullum (34) in FA next summer with that money we're saving. Of course, we once again don't have a point guard (except Sexton) to lead the offense, like the Bulls of the last 3 years, but who cares? We saved 5 mill by lowballing and losing Giddey! Not budging from that $25 mill.

If we lose Giddey, I would think we'd pivot towards a full rebuild, and given I think the Giddey Bulls have very little upside, that thought doesn't scare me. If we are hell bent on making the play-in/1st round, then losing Giddey will hurt, but I'm not hell bent on that.

Even better! He accepts the QO, plays great, then we give him $40-$50 mill AAV in 2026 to re-sign him. Now that's cooking with fire!

Certainly a risk, though a small one, but the Bulls do take a risk if he takes the QO as does Giddey.

Okay, let's tackle this one by one like you did.

You said my statement was false and easily disproven. Which part? The fact that if you want a player, you should be willing to pay market value? Disprove it then. I absolutely never said money doesn't matter. I said if a team pays a player $20 mill and you're fine with it, you're fine with him as a starter. Whatever qualities you deem to make him not worth $30 mill don't prevent you from wanting him as a starter is the point. So stop bringing it up. The only clear problem people seem to have with having him on the team is the price, not the problems. Players are paid for what they can do, not what they can't. What anybody views as his "problems" at 22 will not affect his market value nearly as much as his numbers. Ask Lavine. Or Vucevic. Or his age. Ask Pat Will. The "max" for Giddey is around $38 mil, I believe. So yes, I would pay that for Giddey if we're stupid enough to let the price get there and have to match. But way to try to flip my "logic". Nobody's discussed max, nice way to exaggerate the stakes. I'm talking about the difference in what people think he should get (used $20 mill as an example) and $30 mill. I was actually being nice, I don't really think the gap is that big.

Second statement: You say it's false that he would get more money next summer and that is easily proven. Prove it. Stop saying things are easily disproven if you can't disprove it. Tell me how you'll disprove what salary Giddey would command next summer. That's your opinion. Maybe I should have said "highly, highly unlikely" instead of no way. Didn't know it would be taken so literally.

Russell Westbrook is an easy comparable for Giddey in everything except physicals. Statistical impact in most areas looks consistently similar, with an efficiency boost to Giddey. Took two seconds to find one. there are always comparables, you just have to adjust more for outliers. I'm laughing out loud if working as an agent, I told a client I couldn't price their house because no house exactly the same has sold in that are in the last 30 days. A unique house is often worth far more than a standard house, depending on the buyer. Some teams might love a 22 year old who can average near a 20pt triple double and have the defenders to not worry about that AT ALL, or very minimally. Was AK worried about Lavine, Debo, or Vucevic's defense? He's the only GM like that? Bucks traded Holiday and a ton of assets for Dame Lillard, a far worse defender.

I said what Giddey was not supposed to do. As in nobody should expect him to do it. Nitpick words all you want, he has every right to try to obtain the biggest contract he can. If you think agents, players and organizations don't pay attention to fan's opinions at all, that's your opinion as well. KD interacts with fans more than any celebrity in history, lmao! (Probably, it's a joke but kinda true, don't tell me you'll easily disprove that to!)

I said his fair market value is "PROBABLY" around $30 mill. The word "Probably" indicates an opinion, not fact. Why can everyone else have an opinion and I can't state mine? Feel absolutely free to state what you think his market value is. I see you abstained from that while correcting me.

"If we lose Giddey, I think we will pivot to a rebuild." I think not. But that's your OPINION, and you clearly feel free to state it.

How can you quantify the risk as small when you have no idea of the contract negotiations going on? Would that probability rise if you knew for certain they'd pissed Giddey and his agent off already? Or he's been talking with Kuminga and they decided to take a stand together? Or he's 22, and makes a decision that people think is dumb, but may net him WAY more money? You do know it could ABSOLUTELY be the correct move for him to take the QO, right? We have no idea what Giddey is thinking, we only know what other completely different people in different situations did as RFA's. Some take the QO. I'm the one acting like I know what's going on, and you can estimate the risk of him taking the QO given your vast knowledge of what's going on right now.

Every contract negotiation is unique, what one player will do if/when offended is completely different from other players. Every player looking at taking the QO might not be looking at a summer where 10X more teams will have available cap space.

And you're missing the whole money point. We don't know what the numbers are. Let's say they are $5 mill apart. I honestly doubt any team in the league has failed because they paid a 22 year old starter $5 mill more than they planned to. maybe you can easily disprove that. In 2029 when his contract ends, the cap is projected at $218.4 mill. That extra $5 mill would account for a whole 2% of the cap. On a flat contract, his cost effectively goes down every year, relative to the cap. The point was if you think a 22 year old is starter capable, you don't lose him to save 2% of the cap.

You really think they're $10-$15 mill apart right now in negotiations? It's wild when you talk about opinions, there's not a single provable fact in anything you've said. Or flat out incorrect, like saying I stated an opinion as fact when I prefaced it with "probably". Never indicated I know what he's asking for or what we're offering. The numbers I used were the numbers being discussed in the forum. If we knew the numbers the discussion would be far different.

Hope I've addressed all your corrections. There were a lot, may have missed one or two.

[ThisGuyFawkes]

Giddey is below average at D, I get it. But LOTS of superstars are average or below.
he's 22
His shooting, which surely had been an issue previously, was actually decent the 2nd 1/2. PASSABLE

OTHER THAN THAT, he's well above average for his position

A good GM, in my humble opinion, could build a team that would make Giddey a Superstar and also be a winning team. Do we have such a GM?

..................Ah, to me, there's the rub - as Shakespeare said.

I don't think AK has it in him. Too set in his ways, too conservative. Too ... dull.

that's not Giddey's fault

I hope the sign him. I hope that somehow AK falls into a good situation to put around him. Confidence? Not high

Thoust protests too much, good sir.

Yeah, I agree with everything you said. He's still super young and is a walking triple-double machine. His defense really isn't THAT bad. It's average. His stats seem to get better every year and he's got another 3 years of improvement before his "prime".

Plus, like I said earlier, he makes the other players around him better, which might pay for his contract itself.

[Stratmaster]

Reading the comments it is indeed easy to make an argument either way. The 2nd half of the season Giddey played at an all-NBA level. Go look at Magic Johnson's stats. That's the level this kid played at. And as much as we don't like his shooting form, he is actually a better outside shooter than Johnson was.

Before someone mocks that comparison...Am I saying the Bulls have the next Magic? No. But Giddey also didn't have hall of fame players around him. He put up those numbers with Coby White and an extremely raw rookie being the other focal points.

But it is a small sample. It was poor competition. Still, it was NBA competition.

I stayed in thinking 25 mil. But the difference between that and 30 means nothing as we watch at the next couple years of middle of the pack basketball.

There is also a danger in playing hardball with him because he happens to be coming up for a new contract during a season where there aren't a lot of teams with money to spend. You know what is worse than a giddy Giddey (I have been waiting for a chance to use that) at 30 mil? A disgruntled Giddey at 23 mil for the next 4 or 5 seasons. That is the last thing this team needs.

So I think I am settled in that 30 mil wouldn't be a bad deal. If you can get him for a little less without pissing him off, great. If you get him for less and leave him with a Scottie Pippen taste in his mouth you probably should have given him the 30 mil.

If it turns out that last season was a mirage and he busts... him being a bust at 30 mil isn't going to be a whole lot different than him being a bust at 25 mil.

[Infinity2152]

Reading the comments it is indeed easy to make an argument either way. The 2nd half of the season Giddey played at an all-NBA level. Go look at Magic Johnson's stats. That's the level this kid played at. And as much as we don't like his shooting form, he is actually a better outside shooter than Johnson was.

Before someone mocks that comparison...Am I saying the Bulls have the next Magic? No. But Giddey also didn't have hall of fame players around him. He put up those numbers with Coby White and an extremely raw rookie being the other focal points.

But it is a small sample. It was poor competition. Still, it was NBA competition.

I stayed in thinking 25 mil. But the difference between that and 30 means nothing as we watch at the next couple years of middle of the pack basketball.

There is also a danger in playing hardball with him because he happens to be coming up for a new contract during a season where there aren't a lot of teams with money to spend. You know what is worse than a giddy Giddey (I have been waiting for a chance to use that) at 30 mil? A disgruntled Giddey at 23 mil for the next 4 or 5 seasons. That is the last thing this team needs.

So I think I am settled in that 30 mil wouldn't be a bad deal. If you can get him for a little less without pissing him off, great. If you get him for less and leave him with a Scottie Pippen taste in his mouth you probably should have given him the 30 mil.

If it turns out that last season was a mirage and he busts... him being a bust at 30 mil isn't going to be a whole lot different than him being a bust at 25 mil.

Thanks, my guy! That was my point, and everybody doesn't have to agree. We're not talking about losing him over $30 mill, we're talking about maybe losing him to save whatever the difference is in their negotiations. With the cap expanding 7-10% each year over 5 years, that amount won't matter much at all. Relatively speaking. IN MY OPINION.

Scottie Pippen, great example of what can happen. You don't disrespect a player you figure to be a core piece for 5 years. it can bite you.

[dougthonus]

Okay, let's tackle this one by one like you did.

You said my statement was false and easily disproven. Which part? The fact that if you want a player, you should be willing to pay market value? Disprove it then. I absolutely never said money doesn't matter. I said if a team pays a player $20 mill and you're fine with it, you're fine with him as a starter. Whatever qualities you deem to make him not worth $30 mill don't prevent you from wanting him as a starter is the point. So stop bringing it up. The only clear problem people seem to have with having him on the team is the price, not the problems. Players are paid for what they can do, not what they can't. What anybody views as his "problems" at 22 will not affect his market value nearly as much as his numbers. Ask Lavine. Or Vucevic. Or his age. Ask Pat Will. The "max" for Giddey is around $38 mil, I believe. So yes, I would pay that for Giddey if we're stupid enough to let the price get there and have to match. But way to try to flip my "logic". Nobody's discussed max, nice way to exaggerate the stakes. I'm talking about the difference in what people think he should get (used $20 mill as an example) and $30 mill. I was actually being nice, I don't really think the gap is that big.

Second statement: You say it's false that he would get more money next summer and that is easily proven. Prove it. Stop saying things are easily disproven if you can't disprove it. Tell me how you'll disprove what salary Giddey would command next summer. That's your opinion. Maybe I should have said "highly, highly unlikely" instead of no way. Didn't know it would be taken so literally.

Russell Westbrook is an easy comparable for Giddey in everything except physicals. Statistical impact in most areas looks consistently similar, with an efficiency boost to Giddey. Took two seconds to find one. there are always comparables, you just have to adjust more for outliers. I'm laughing out loud if working as an agent, I told a client I couldn't price their house because no house exactly the same has sold in that are in the last 30 days. A unique house is often worth far more than a standard house, depending on the buyer. Some teams might love a 22 year old who can average near a 20pt triple double and have the defenders to not worry about that AT ALL, or very minimally. Was AK worried about Lavine, Debo, or Vucevic's defense? He's the only GM like that? Bucks traded Holiday and a ton of assets for Dame Lillard, a far worse defender.

I said what Giddey was not supposed to do. As in nobody should expect him to do it. Nitpick words all you want, he has every right to try to obtain the biggest contract he can. If you think agents, players and organizations don't pay attention to fan's opinions at all, that's your opinion as well. KD interacts with fans more than any celebrity in history, lmao! (Probably, it's a joke but kinda true, don't tell me you'll easily disprove that to!)

I said his fair market value is "PROBABLY" around $30 mill. The word "Probably" indicates an opinion, not fact. Why can everyone else have an opinion and I can't state mine? Feel absolutely free to state what you think his market value is. I see you abstained from that while correcting me.

"If we lose Giddey, I think we will pivot to a rebuild." I think not. But that's your OPINION, and you clearly feel free to state it.

How can you quantify the risk as small when you have no idea of the contract negotiations going on? Would that probability rise if you knew for certain they'd pissed Giddey and his agent off already? Or he's been talking with Kuminga and they decided to take a stand together? Or he's 22, and makes a decision that people think is dumb, but may net him WAY more money? You do know it could ABSOLUTELY be the correct move for him to take the QO, right? We have no idea what Giddey is thinking, we only know what other completely different people in different situations did as RFA's. Some take the QO. I'm the one acting like I know what's going on, and you can estimate the risk of him taking the QO given your vast knowledge of what's going on right now.

Every contract negotiation is unique, what one player will do if/when offended is completely different from other players. Every player looking at taking the QO might not be looking at a summer where 10X more teams will have available cap space.

And you're missing the whole money point. We don't know what the numbers are. Let's say they are $5 mill apart. I honestly doubt any team in the league has failed because they paid a 22 year old starter $5 mill more than they planned to. maybe you can easily disprove that. In 2029 when his contract ends, the cap is projected at $218.4 mill. That extra $5 mill would account for a whole 2% of the cap. On a flat contract, his cost effectively goes down every year, relative to the cap. The point was if you think a 22 year old is starter capable, you don't lose him to save 2% of the cap.

You really think they're $10-$15 mill apart right now in negotiations? It's wild when you talk about opinions, there's not a single provable fact in anything you've said. Or flat out incorrect, like saying I stated an opinion as fact when I prefaced it with "probably". Never indicated I know what he's asking for or what we're offering. The numbers I used were the numbers being discussed in the forum. If we knew the numbers the discussion would be far different.

Hope I've addressed all your corrections. There were a lot, may have missed one or two.

Literally almost nothing you said is related to anything I said, so not really sure what to say to you about it. It's like you read my post and just decided I think the opposite of you and want to fight instead of reading the actual words I wrote and responding to those.

[dougthonus]

If it turns out that last season was a mirage and he busts... him being a bust at 30 mil isn't going to be a whole lot different than him being a bust at 25 mil.

If you take the approach of paying everyone on the roster 20% more than they're worth, you have 35M less to spend on your roster. In a cap constrained environment, that matters a lot. You might think Giddey is just straight up worth 30M and if so, go ahead and pay him that, but you should make the decision that makes the most sense for your franchise and not just "well if he's lousy it doesn't matter if he's lousy at 20% more money".

[jnrjr79]

If it turns out that last season was a mirage and he busts... him being a bust at 30 mil isn't going to be a whole lot different than him being a bust at 25 mil.

If you take the approach of paying everyone on the roster 20% more than they're worth, you have 35M less to spend on your roster. In a cap constrained environment, that matters a lot. You might think Giddey is just straight up worth 30M and if so, go ahead and pay him that, but you should make the decision that makes the most sense for your franchise.

And heck, the goal here is not to simply pay every player what they are worth. When you can, you want to lock up players for less than they are worth. Here, with seemingly no cap space in the market, is an opportunity to do that.

[dougthonus]

And heck, the goal here is not to simply pay every player what they are worth. When you can, you want to lock up players for less than they are worth. Here, with seemingly no cap space in the market, is an opportunity to do that.

I don't get hung up on this. At the end of the day, I'd be shocked with any scenario other than Giddey coming back to the Bulls on a long term deal. We should be pressing to make this long term deal as reasonable as we can. That's management's job. Giddey's agent will also be pressing to get as much as he can. That's his job.

Given nothing has been reached so far, we'll likely just sit in a stalement until October now.

[Infinity2152]

Okay, let's tackle this one by one like you did.

You said my statement was false and easily disproven. Which part? The fact that if you want a player, you should be willing to pay market value? Disprove it then. I absolutely never said money doesn't matter. I said if a team pays a player $20 mill and you're fine with it, you're fine with him as a starter. Whatever qualities you deem to make him not worth $30 mill don't prevent you from wanting him as a starter is the point. So stop bringing it up. The only clear problem people seem to have with having him on the team is the price, not the problems. Players are paid for what they can do, not what they can't. What anybody views as his "problems" at 22 will not affect his market value nearly as much as his numbers. Ask Lavine. Or Vucevic. Or his age. Ask Pat Will. The "max" for Giddey is around $38 mil, I believe. So yes, I would pay that for Giddey if we're stupid enough to let the price get there and have to match. But way to try to flip my "logic". Nobody's discussed max, nice way to exaggerate the stakes. I'm talking about the difference in what people think he should get (used $20 mill as an example) and $30 mill. I was actually being nice, I don't really think the gap is that big.

Second statement: You say it's false that he would get more money next summer and that is easily proven. Prove it. Stop saying things are easily disproven if you can't disprove it. Tell me how you'll disprove what salary Giddey would command next summer. That's your opinion. Maybe I should have said "highly, highly unlikely" instead of no way. Didn't know it would be taken so literally.

Russell Westbrook is an easy comparable for Giddey in everything except physicals. Statistical impact in most areas looks consistently similar, with an efficiency boost to Giddey. Took two seconds to find one. there are always comparables, you just have to adjust more for outliers. I'm laughing out loud if working as an agent, I told a client I couldn't price their house because no house exactly the same has sold in that are in the last 30 days. A unique house is often worth far more than a standard house, depending on the buyer. Some teams might love a 22 year old who can average near a 20pt triple double and have the defenders to not worry about that AT ALL, or very minimally. Was AK worried about Lavine, Debo, or Vucevic's defense? He's the only GM like that? Bucks traded Holiday and a ton of assets for Dame Lillard, a far worse defender.

I said what Giddey was not supposed to do. As in nobody should expect him to do it. Nitpick words all you want, he has every right to try to obtain the biggest contract he can. If you think agents, players and organizations don't pay attention to fan's opinions at all, that's your opinion as well. KD interacts with fans more than any celebrity in history, lmao! (Probably, it's a joke but kinda true, don't tell me you'll easily disprove that to!)

I said his fair market value is "PROBABLY" around $30 mill. The word "Probably" indicates an opinion, not fact. Why can everyone else have an opinion and I can't state mine? Feel absolutely free to state what you think his market value is. I see you abstained from that while correcting me.

"If we lose Giddey, I think we will pivot to a rebuild." I think not. But that's your OPINION, and you clearly feel free to state it.

How can you quantify the risk as small when you have no idea of the contract negotiations going on? Would that probability rise if you knew for certain they'd pissed Giddey and his agent off already? Or he's been talking with Kuminga and they decided to take a stand together? Or he's 22, and makes a decision that people think is dumb, but may net him WAY more money? You do know it could ABSOLUTELY be the correct move for him to take the QO, right? We have no idea what Giddey is thinking, we only know what other completely different people in different situations did as RFA's. Some take the QO. I'm the one acting like I know what's going on, and you can estimate the risk of him taking the QO given your vast knowledge of what's going on right now.

Every contract negotiation is unique, what one player will do if/when offended is completely different from other players. Every player looking at taking the QO might not be looking at a summer where 10X more teams will have available cap space.

And you're missing the whole money point. We don't know what the numbers are. Let's say they are $5 mill apart. I honestly doubt any team in the league has failed because they paid a 22 year old starter $5 mill more than they planned to. maybe you can easily disprove that. In 2029 when his contract ends, the cap is projected at $218.4 mill. That extra $5 mill would account for a whole 2% of the cap. On a flat contract, his cost effectively goes down every year, relative to the cap. The point was if you think a 22 year old is starter capable, you don't lose him to save 2% of the cap.

You really think they're $10-$15 mill apart right now in negotiations? It's wild when you talk about opinions, there's not a single provable fact in anything you've said. Or flat out incorrect, like saying I stated an opinion as fact when I prefaced it with "probably". Never indicated I know what he's asking for or what we're offering. The numbers I used were the numbers being discussed in the forum. If we knew the numbers the discussion would be far different.

Hope I've addressed all your corrections. There were a lot, may have missed one or two.

Literally almost nothing you said is related to anything I said, so not really sure what to say to you about it. It's like you read my post and just decided I think the opposite of you and want to fight instead of reading the actual words I wrote and responding to those.

That's literally exactly what you're doing now, lmao! I took the time to carefully answer each statement one by one, and because you don't like how I answer them, I'm trying to fight you? That's hilarious, seeing as you were the one who started this breaking down every sentence of my post in the first place!! I'm starting a fight! OMG! Literally almost EVeRY one has a direct or indirect quote, but they don't refer to what you're talking about. Okay, bro. It's cool.

Only thing I did different was not space my answers between all of yours because I felt this is too damn long already.

I have nothing against you, wish you no ill will, and hope you have a great day.

[Ctownbulls]

Giddey is below average at D, I get it. But LOTS of superstars are average or below.
he's 22
His shooting, which surely had been an issue previously, was actually decent the 2nd 1/2. PASSABLE

OTHER THAN THAT, he's well above average for his position

A good GM, in my humble opinion, could build a team that would make Giddey a Superstar and also be a winning team. Do we have such a GM?

..................Ah, to me, there's the rub - as Shakespeare said.

I don't think AK has it in him. Too set in his ways, too conservative. Too ... dull.

that's not Giddey's fault

I hope the sign him. I hope that somehow AK falls into a good situation to put around him. Confidence? Not high

A superstar that can lead a championship team?

A superstar whose contract will be tradable for a big package if it doesn't work out in Chicago?

If neither, then you can't sign him to $30M.

Sent from my Pixel 9 using Tapatalk

[dougthonus]

That's literally exactly what you're doing now, lmao! I took the time to carefully answer each statement one by one, and because you don't like how I answer them, I'm trying to fight you? That's hilarious, seeing as you were the one who started this breaking down every sentence of my post in the first place!! I'm starting a fight! OMG! Literally almost EVeRY one has a direct or indirect quote, but they don't refer to what you're talking about. Okay, bro. It's cool.

Only thing I did different was not space my answers between all of yours because I felt this is too damn long already.

I have nothing against you, wish you no ill will, and hope you have a great day.

Maybe I will simplify it this way.

My intention is to push back on the absoluteness of which you have stated these opinions:

1: Giddey's market value is 30m.

By definition, his market value is the most he can extract at any one point in time. This year, that will be whatever the Bulls offer him. That is by definition his market value (unless another bidder enters the equation somehow).

2: Giddey's market value next year will be greater than 30m.

I'm only saying that it could be more, it could be less. I personally would not put a lot of money on either side of that equation. It's my opinion his has much more variability (even ignoring catastrophic injury as a risk) than you think.

3: If you would pay Giddey 20m, you view him as a starter and therefore should be willing to pay him 30m.

Obviously someone can like Giddey at one number and not another. 20m is fringe starter / high end bench player, 30m is #3 starter. I don't think Giddey is a #3 starter.

To say you like a player or dislike a player is interesting to me, because I would say I like Giddey, but reading this you would think I hate him. I think most people are in the 25-30M range on his value, and so I'm on the low end of that "middle ground" range we'll call it. You've said you would pay him 38M if you had to.

I would say that puts you in the positive outlier range in terms of how much you value him, and given that's true, it certainly isn't a surprise to me that you'd want to sign him at 30M immediately. If I was willing to pay a guy 38M and could get him for 30M then I would also want to sign him at 30M immediately.

[waffle]

Giddey is below average at D, I get it. But LOTS of superstars are average or below.
he's 22
His shooting, which surely had been an issue previously, was actually decent the 2nd 1/2. PASSABLE

OTHER THAN THAT, he's well above average for his position

A good GM, in my humble opinion, could build a team that would make Giddey a Superstar and also be a winning team. Do we have such a GM?

..................Ah, to me, there's the rub - as Shakespeare said.

I don't think AK has it in him. Too set in his ways, too conservative. Too ... dull.

that's not Giddey's fault

I hope the sign him. I hope that somehow AK falls into a good situation to put around him. Confidence? Not high

A superstar that can lead a championship team?

A superstar whose contract will be tradable for a big package if it doesn't work out in Chicago?

If neither, then you can't sign him to $30M.

Sent from my Pixel 9 using Tapatalk

A. Maybe? Better chance with him.
B. Yes, I think so

But to restate what I said this team is not complete, and I do not have a lot of faith in AK to take the next necessary steps

My concern about AK does not mean they shouldn't sign Giddey. They lucked into Giddey. They are in a better position now WITH Giddey

I would rather watch an poorly built/poorly led team with Giddey than one without and I don't think TRULY he puts us that much further away from being good, or having the chance of being good, under any circumstances

[Stratmaster]

If it turns out that last season was a mirage and he busts... him being a bust at 30 mil isn't going to be a whole lot different than him being a bust at 25 mil.

If you take the approach of paying everyone on the roster 20% more than they're worth, you have 35M less to spend on your roster. In a cap constrained environment, that matters a lot. You might think Giddey is just straight up worth 30M and if so, go ahead and pay him that, but you should make the decision that makes the most sense for your franchise and not just "well if he's lousy it doesn't matter if he's lousy at 20% more money".

Where did I say anything about paying every player on the roster 20% more than he is worth. That is a complete strawman. We are talking about 1 player. You have players in different phases of their contracts. Coby White is making about 8 mil less than he is worth this coming season. Many would say it is more like 13 million. But not because they took advantage of him.

There is little doubt in my mind Giddey could command 30 mil based on his performance last season if there were teams with the money to pay it. The question is do you take advantage of the market situation to underpay him.

How does it make sense for the franchise to lose him, or alienate him, over 5 million?

There is only 1 overpaid player on the Bulls payroll right now. Patrick Williams.

[HomoSapien]

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[DuckIII]

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ALL IS WELL!!!!!

ALL IS WEEEEEELLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!

I'm still not worried. They need each other like everything needs bacon.

[HomoSapien]

Read on Twitter

?s=46&t=xOB22xGd85UcfRRu6zUm4w

ALL IS WELL!!!!!

ALL IS WEEEEEELLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!

I'm still not worried. They need each other like everything needs bacon.

I am worried mainly because the Bulls and Giddey were allowed to start negotiations before free-agency even began. It's clear we are at a stalemate.