RealGM 2025 Greatest Peaks Project #2 — 1974 Kareem-Abdul Jabbar

[OldSchoolNoBull]

Looking at a bunch of guys, but some of them I'm debating the year.

For Kareem, 77 seems to be the year most are going with. I get that the nature of his rise in the playoffs is noticeable here, but I have a hard time with the optics of choosing as a peak season one in which his team was swept out of the playoffs. It wasn't his fault, he played great, but the point of the game is to win, and when there's two seasons in Milwaukee where he either won the title or got within one game of winning the title, I have hard time going with 77. I do see that he actually fell a bit in the playoffs in 71, but it didn't stop the team from handily winning the title(lost only 2 games in 3 7 game series). I could definitely see taking 74 as a compromise as he did rise in the playoffs that year but got within one game of the title.

For Russell, it probably is 64 as the consensus seems to be. Although 66(the final year w/Auerbach as coach) is impressive for who the team had to go through to win it all. The playoffs were a bit longer by this point, and Russell had to go through all of Oscar(and it took all five games), Wilt(on basically the same Sixers team that would win it all the following year), and West/Baylor. He'd gone through all of these guys at one point or another, but this was the only year he had to go through all of them in the same run. That's a murderer's row. Like the 95 Rockets or 11 Mavs. Still, Russell is a unique player in history in that his dominance was so isolated to the defensive end in an era with zero defensive stats. The only thing to look at is team defensive rating, and 64 is the year the team peaked in that respect. I'd be interested to know if anyone thinks there's any argument for 66 though.

For Wilt, do we go with the gargantuan box numbers of 1962(50ppg, 48mpg, the 100 point game), or do we go with 67 in which he still put up big numbers(just not as big) quarterbacking one of the great single-season teams ever?

[Verticality]

First I must again commend the incredible information output to begin the proceeding. It truly has me thinking new thoughts and I am grateful I can read such discussion. I only hope we can handle things with maturity and stay away from personal problems.

1 to me is still 1994 Hakeem Olajuwon. I will say I think the idea of bigs and replacements and Hakeem's adversity perseverance makes me confident to stick with this. NBA Finals Most Valuable Player Award, Defensive Player of the Year legendary playoff run and NBA World Championship. I stick with Duncan. It is a shame he won no DPOY. He should have the same resume of 1994 Hakeem.

Where I have doubts now are with regard to Jordan the ultimate and Kareem. Firstly I did not think much of this but Defensive Player of the Year did not exist in Kareem's peak. He might have won in 71 deserving and with MVP and great scoring and incredible playoff dominance and the second highest net rating that is a stunning resume all around. The other doubt I have is with Jordan namely to defense. Not that he is not good but his struggle vs Magic and what he does not offer interior and questionable statistic around his Defensive Player of the Year. If the gap is big as there is now evidences of I am not sure I can deny Kareem based on age or lack of award. He certainly has incredible offense and scoring. Maybe not to level of Lebron or Jordan but impressive. And with perfect resume I talk earlier maybe he is 1st. If I celebrate the two way play I think I must Vote Jabbar. Even acknowledging he is less playoff consistent. I respect Oldschoolbull discussion for 74 and Elpolo14 is right it is not his true best. But I will go with championship of 71.



1 94 Hakeem Olajuwon
2 03 Tim Duncan
3 71 Kareem Abdul Jabbar

[One_and_Done]

1. Tim Duncan (02, then 03)
2. Shaq (00)
3. Kareem (74, 71, 77)

Duncan is an easy choice for me. As I elaborated on at length in the RPOY and top 100 project, Duncan’s impact is slept on by people who only remember late career Duncan. In truth, Duncan was never at his absolute peak again after his 04 injury. He was still amazing over the rest of his prime from 04-07, maybe 95% as good as 02 and 03, but the drop was noticeable. That 2002 Spurs team wouldn’t have won 20 games without Duncan, let alone 58. Everyone on his support cast was old and washed, young and inexperienced, or highly limited. That he managed to carry a slightly better Spurs support cast to the title the next year remains one of the GOAT carry jobs of all-time. Defensively, Duncan is IMHO the GOAT, over Russell, Hakeem, etc.

Duncan 02 had nothing around him. He anchored the Spurs entire defence, and almost every offensive possession was run through him. In the playoffs, he matched up with Shaq and guarded him 1 on 1 for much/most of the series, and the stats speak for themselves. Duncan clearly outplayed Shaq.

Shaq 00 isn’t controversial. He has one of the most dominant peaks of all-time. His defence holds him back, but what he’s giving you on offense is so impactful that his foibles there don’t matter (except in comparison to someone like peak Duncan).

Kareem is a compromise choice. I don’t think I’d rank him #3 of the remaining candidates, I’m not sure. But he’s the only candidate likely to get traction who I’m willing to vote for. The Bucks turnaround from 69 to 70 is an excellent example of the turnaround a single player can accomplish, and reflects Kareem’s impact overall. He’s likely have won the 71 title without Oscar, just based on his own improvement as a sophomore player.

By how you generally talk about older player from the previous generation. I never would've guess that you gonna put Kareem on the the podium of this round. What make Kareem more special than others player who were all time era relative? His translation to this era of basketball would Also be a bit wankie ( which is something you bought up quite often for player like MJ )

I might switch depending on who gets traction. I think he'd translate just fine today, bigs aren't as disadvantaged not having a 3pt shot.

[f4p]

,
Duncan 02 had nothing around him. He anchored the Spurs entire defence, and almost every offensive possession was run through him. In the playoffs, he matched up with Shaq and guarded him 1 on 1 for much/most of the series, and the stats speak for themselves. Duncan clearly outplayed Shaq.

Hmm, Duncan 02 seems like a weird choice over Duncan 03. While Duncan had nice totals in the Lakers series, in the 4th quarters (basically 1.25 games), he was something like 11 for 29 with 9 turnovers while the spurs blew 3 4th quarter leads. Partly because he couldn't ever score on shaq.

And as for guarding Shaq, this video I counted Duncan as primary defender on Shaq (so weak side blocks don't count as defending) on 6 of 51 possessions (the video skips a few possessions). And it was 4 of 11 at one point so 2 of the last 40. And it was game 4, so I'm guessing the spurs had settled on a strategy at that point.

https://youtu.be/93AXe5r3ADY?si=5HKD1OMcGuyzDkTR


While I don't recall 03 duncan having nearly as much trouble scoring on Shaq or having the 4th quarter struggles. And having better overall playoff numbers while winning the championship.

[70sFan]

,
Duncan 02 had nothing around him. He anchored the Spurs entire defence, and almost every offensive possession was run through him. In the playoffs, he matched up with Shaq and guarded him 1 on 1 for much/most of the series, and the stats speak for themselves. Duncan clearly outplayed Shaq.

Hmm, Duncan 02 seems like a weird choice over Duncan 03. While Duncan had nice totals in the Lakers series, in the 4th quarters (basically 1.25 games), he was something like 11 for 29 with 9 turnovers while the spurs blew 3 4th quarter leads. Partly because he couldn't ever score on shaq.

And as for guarding Shaq, this video I counted Duncan as primary defender on Shaq (so weak side blocks don't count as defending) on 6 of 51 possessions (the video skips a few possessions). And it was 4 of 11 at one point so 2 of the last 40. And it was game 4, so I'm guessing the spurs had settled on a strategy at that point.

https://youtu.be/93AXe5r3ADY?si=5HKD1OMcGuyzDkTR


While I don't recall 03 duncan having nearly as much trouble scoring on Shaq or having the 4th quarter struggles. And having better overall playoff numbers while winning the championship.

These are Shaq numbers against Duncan coverage:

Game 1: 4/11 FG, 3/4 FT, 1 ast, 1 tov
Game 2: 5/9 FG, 3/6 FT, 3 ast, 1 tov
Game 3: 5/8 FG, 2/2 FT, 1 ast, 0 tov
Game 4: 2/3 FG, 0/0 FT, 1 ast, 0 tov
Game 5: 3/8 FG, 4/6 FT, 0 ast, 1 tov

Overall: 10 ppg on 48.7 FG%, 66.7 FT% and 53.3 TS%, 1.2 apg and 0.6 tov

Note that game 4 is the one when Duncan defended Shaq the least, at least based on DFG (and my memory).

I also have Duncan stats vs Shaq and 2003 stats as well, but they are on my harddrive and I am out of home for the rest of July outside of weekends. If anyone is interested in such numbers, I could try to share them this weekend.

[Elpolo_14]

,
Duncan 02 had nothing around him. He anchored the Spurs entire defence, and almost every offensive possession was run through him. In the playoffs, he matched up with Shaq and guarded him 1 on 1 for much/most of the series, and the stats speak for themselves. Duncan clearly outplayed Shaq.

Hmm, Duncan 02 seems like a weird choice over Duncan 03. While Duncan had nice totals in the Lakers series, in the 4th quarters (basically 1.25 games), he was something like 11 for 29 with 9 turnovers while the spurs blew 3 4th quarter leads. Partly because he couldn't ever score on shaq.

And as for guarding Shaq, this video I counted Duncan as primary defender on Shaq (so weak side blocks don't count as defending) on 6 of 51 possessions (the video skips a few possessions). And it was 4 of 11 at one point so 2 of the last 40. And it was game 4, so I'm guessing the spurs had settled on a strategy at that point.

https://youtu.be/93AXe5r3ADY?si=5HKD1OMcGuyzDkTR


While I don't recall 03 duncan having nearly as much trouble scoring on Shaq or having the 4th quarter struggles. And having better overall playoff numbers while winning the championship.

These are Shaq numbers against Duncan coverage:

Game 1: 4/11 FG, 3/4 FT, 1 ast, 1 tov
Game 2: 5/9 FG, 3/6 FT, 3 ast, 1 tov
Game 3: 5/8 FG, 2/2 FT, 1 ast, 0 tov
Game 4: 2/3 FG, 0/0 FT, 1 ast, 0 tov
Game 5: 3/8 FG, 4/6 FT, 0 ast, 1 tov

Overall: 10 ppg on 48.7 FG%, 66.7 FT% and 53.3 TS%, 1.2 apg and 0.6 tov

Note that game 4 is the one when Duncan defended Shaq the least, at least based on DFG (and my memory).

I also have Duncan stats vs Shaq and 2003 stats as well, but they are on my harddrive and I am out of home for the rest of July outside of weekends. If anyone is interested in such numbers, I could try to share them this weekend.

I would really appreciate if you could share Duncan defensive stat on shaq in 2003. When you're free and available of course.

I remember Duncan vastly being a great defender as a primary and as a help when D.rob was with Shaq. But the number would be more accurate than My memory.

[Elpolo_14]

1. Tim Duncan (02, then 03)
2. Shaq (00)
3. Kareem (74, 71, 77)

Duncan is an easy choice for me. As I elaborated on at length in the RPOY and top 100 project, Duncan’s impact is slept on by people who only remember late career Duncan. In truth, Duncan was never at his absolute peak again after his 04 injury. He was still amazing over the rest of his prime from 04-07, maybe 95% as good as 02 and 03, but the drop was noticeable. That 2002 Spurs team wouldn’t have won 20 games without Duncan, let alone 58. Everyone on his support cast was old and washed, young and inexperienced, or highly limited. That he managed to carry a slightly better Spurs support cast to the title the next year remains one of the GOAT carry jobs of all-time. Defensively, Duncan is IMHO the GOAT, over Russell, Hakeem, etc.

Duncan 02 had nothing around him. He anchored the Spurs entire defence, and almost every offensive possession was run through him. In the playoffs, he matched up with Shaq and guarded him 1 on 1 for much/most of the series, and the stats speak for themselves. Duncan clearly outplayed Shaq.

Shaq 00 isn’t controversial. He has one of the most dominant peaks of all-time. His defence holds him back, but what he’s giving you on offense is so impactful that his foibles there don’t matter (except in comparison to someone like peak Duncan).

Kareem is a compromise choice. I don’t think I’d rank him #3 of the remaining candidates, I’m not sure. But he’s the only candidate likely to get traction who I’m willing to vote for. The Bucks turnaround from 69 to 70 is an excellent example of the turnaround a single player can accomplish, and reflects Kareem’s impact overall. He’s likely have won the 71 title without Oscar, just based on his own improvement as a sophomore player.

By how you generally talk about older player from the previous generation. I never would've guess that you gonna put Kareem on the the podium of this round. What make Kareem more special than others player who were all time era relative? His translation to this era of basketball would Also be a bit wankie ( which is something you bought up quite often for player like MJ )

I might switch depending on who gets traction. I think he'd translate just fine today, bigs aren't as disadvantaged not having a 3pt shot.

His heavy paint and post presence might course some trouble to this era platype which are base on prerimeter Spacing and clocking the timer by pounding the ball in post might not be as reliable as it use to be. Also him not having any long shot variation would hurts for current era offense. Him not having any high level PNR and PNP skillsets is also a weakness. Although I do agree that Center defensive Value can still translate to a high value.

SGA in the playoffs was shooting sub 28.5% on 5 FGA volume from 3pt and he still able to impact offense side of the ball. I don't think 3pt would be a huge detriment to old Guard as much as you think.

[Elpolo_14]

I know it's just an example, and #2 is far too early, but I appreciate seeing it because I would appreciate '04 AK getting on the list somewhere this year. I'm not certain if that team wins 10 games without AK.

AK was tremendously impactful both end but especially on defense that year. With an ahhh Jazz team.

Where would you want him to land on his peak project? I could see him around 40 ish tier. Which player you have around the same range as AK 2004.

[Elpolo_14]

For p
Wilt, do we go with the gargantuan box numbers of 1962(50ppg, 48mpg, the 100 point game), or do we go with 67 in which he still put up big numbers(just not as big) quarterbacking one of the great single-season teams ever?

I would say Wilt 64 and 67 bring much more value despite of the Box score number being less flashy. And in the playoffs he a better player and translate his impact+Skillsets more than in his early career. ( He also involve and help his teammates to be better too )

His development as a defender in those year also need to get some consideration.

[70sFan]

Hmm, Duncan 02 seems like a weird choice over Duncan 03. While Duncan had nice totals in the Lakers series, in the 4th quarters (basically 1.25 games), he was something like 11 for 29 with 9 turnovers while the spurs blew 3 4th quarter leads. Partly because he couldn't ever score on shaq.

And as for guarding Shaq, this video I counted Duncan as primary defender on Shaq (so weak side blocks don't count as defending) on 6 of 51 possessions (the video skips a few possessions). And it was 4 of 11 at one point so 2 of the last 40. And it was game 4, so I'm guessing the spurs had settled on a strategy at that point.

https://youtu.be/93AXe5r3ADY?si=5HKD1OMcGuyzDkTR


While I don't recall 03 duncan having nearly as much trouble scoring on Shaq or having the 4th quarter struggles. And having better overall playoff numbers while winning the championship.

These are Shaq numbers against Duncan coverage:

Game 1: 4/11 FG, 3/4 FT, 1 ast, 1 tov
Game 2: 5/9 FG, 3/6 FT, 3 ast, 1 tov
Game 3: 5/8 FG, 2/2 FT, 1 ast, 0 tov
Game 4: 2/3 FG, 0/0 FT, 1 ast, 0 tov
Game 5: 3/8 FG, 4/6 FT, 0 ast, 1 tov

Overall: 10 ppg on 48.7 FG%, 66.7 FT% and 53.3 TS%, 1.2 apg and 0.6 tov

Note that game 4 is the one when Duncan defended Shaq the least, at least based on DFG (and my memory).

I also have Duncan stats vs Shaq and 2003 stats as well, but they are on my harddrive and I am out of home for the rest of July outside of weekends. If anyone is interested in such numbers, I could try to share them this weekend.

I would really appreciate if you could share Duncan defensive stat on shaq in 2003. When you're free and available of course.

I remember Duncan vastly being a great defender as a primary and as a help when D.rob was with Shaq. But the number would be more accurate than My memory.

I will try to get the numbers for both Shaq and Duncan against each other in 2002 and 2003 h2h. Unfortunately I don't have the data for 2004, which also could be interesting.

Regarding Duncan struggling to score on Shaq - it's nothing strange, as Shaq was tremendous post defender due to his length and strength. When you look at Hakeem's numbers in 1995 against Shaq (available thanks to Djoker), he also doesn't look that good at all and the Magic were significantly weaker than the Lakers in help defense.

[70sFan]

By how you generally talk about older player from the previous generation. I never would've guess that you gonna put Kareem on the the podium of this round. What make Kareem more special than others player who were all time era relative? His translation to this era of basketball would Also be a bit wankie ( which is something you bought up quite often for player like MJ )

I might switch depending on who gets traction. I think he'd translate just fine today, bigs aren't as disadvantaged not having a 3pt shot.

His heavy paint and post presence might course some trouble to this era platype which are base on prerimeter Spacing and clocking the timer by pounding the ball in post might not be as reliable as it use to be. Also him not having any long shot variation would hurts for current era offense. Him not having any high level PNR and PNP skillsets is also a weakness. Although I do agree that Center defensive Value can still translate to a high value.

SGA in the playoffs was shooting sub 28.5% on 5 FGA volume from 3pt and he still able to impact offense side of the ball. I don't think 3pt would be a huge detriment to old Guard as much as you think.

Are your reservations regarding Kareem's offense are more due to the uncertainty or the clear weaknesses in his game that you see? Like, for example - do you see anything that would prevent him from being a good P&R player today?

[70sFan]

For p
Wilt, do we go with the gargantuan box numbers of 1962(50ppg, 48mpg, the 100 point game), or do we go with 67 in which he still put up big numbers(just not as big) quarterbacking one of the great single-season teams ever?

I would say Wilt 64 and 67 bring much more value despite of the Box score number being less flashy. And in the playoffs he a better player and translate his impact+Skillsets more than in his early career. ( He also involve and help his teammates to be better too )

His development as a defender in those year also need to get some consideration.

It's always extremely hard to get a strong opinion with the limited data we work with, but from my observations Wilt's offensive skillset improved quite a bit around 1964. I am not sure how much his scoring repertoire developed though. We just don't have enough pre-1964 games to be certain about any changes. On one hand, I see Wilt using more post moves in the mid-60s than in the early 1960s. On the other, newspapers talk a lot about his development in 1962 and 1963.

One thing I see is that Wilt was a very complete post player around 1964-66 period. I am not sure if he was that complete earlier.

[One_and_Done]

Duncan having zero help around him in 02 also made it easy for him to be doubled by the Lakers inside.

[70sFan]

Duncan having zero help around him in 02 also made it easy for him to be doubled by the Lakers inside.

This is true, although Lakers could afford playing Duncan straight for stretches when they put Shaq on him. Duncan couldn't overpower O'Neal inside and his jumpshot wasn't reliable enough to produce good offense for prolonged periods.

Of course that wasn't the main problem of the series, Duncan scored plenty and created a lot. It should be emphasized that Timmy struggled against Shaq though.

[Elpolo_14]

I might switch depending on who gets traction. I think he'd translate just fine today, bigs aren't as disadvantaged not having a 3pt shot.

His heavy paint and post presence might course some trouble to this era platype which are base on prerimeter Spacing and clocking the timer by pounding the ball in post might not be as reliable as it use to be. Also him not having any long shot variation would hurts for current era offense. Him not having any high level PNR and PNP skillsets is also a weakness. Although I do agree that Center defensive Value can still translate to a high value.

SGA in the playoffs was shooting sub 28.5% on 5 FGA volume from 3pt and he still able to impact offense side of the ball. I don't think 3pt would be a huge detriment to old Guard as much as you think.

Are your reservations regarding Kareem's offense are more due to the uncertainty or the clear weaknesses in his game that you see? Like, for example - do you see anything that would prevent him from being a good P&R player today?

I would say more of uncertainty aspect than a weakness ( I don't think he would have a weakness in those play style which he have attribute that can contribute to ). And I was describing attribute a player didn't use as much or wasn't really établish on a high level in their Era like "One and Done" does to other player so I can try to understand his criteria for older player.

[Elpolo_14]

For p
Wilt, do we go with the gargantuan box numbers of 1962(50ppg, 48mpg, the 100 point game), or do we go with 67 in which he still put up big numbers(just not as big) quarterbacking one of the great single-season teams ever?

I would say Wilt 64 and 67 bring much more value despite of the Box score number being less flashy. And in the playoffs he a better player and translate his impact+Skillsets more than in his early career. ( He also involve and help his teammates to be better too )

His development as a defender in those year also need to get some consideration.

It's always extremely hard to get a strong opinion with the limited data we work with, but from my observations Wilt's offensive skillset improved quite a bit around 1964. I am not sure how much his scoring repertoire developed though. We just don't have enough pre-1964 games to be certain about any changes. On one hand, I see Wilt using more post moves in the mid-60s than in the early 1960s. On the other, newspapers talk a lot about his development in 1962 and 1963.

One thing I see is that Wilt was a very complete post player around 1964-66 period. I am not sure if he was that complete earlier.

I would agree with you. From some of the article and the very lack of film I have watched. I have Wilt in 64 67 as better player than his younger self in 62.

[Elpolo_14]

These are Shaq numbers against Duncan coverage:

Game 1: 4/11 FG, 3/4 FT, 1 ast, 1 tov
Game 2: 5/9 FG, 3/6 FT, 3 ast, 1 tov
Game 3: 5/8 FG, 2/2 FT, 1 ast, 0 tov
Game 4: 2/3 FG, 0/0 FT, 1 ast, 0 tov
Game 5: 3/8 FG, 4/6 FT, 0 ast, 1 tov

Overall: 10 ppg on 48.7 FG%, 66.7 FT% and 53.3 TS%, 1.2 apg and 0.6 tov

Note that game 4 is the one when Duncan defended Shaq the least, at least based on DFG (and my memory).

I also have Duncan stats vs Shaq and 2003 stats as well, but they are on my harddrive and I am out of home for the rest of July outside of weekends. If anyone is interested in such numbers, I could try to share them this weekend.

I would really appreciate if you could share Duncan defensive stat on shaq in 2003. When you're free and available of course.

I remember Duncan vastly being a great defender as a primary and as a help when D.rob was with Shaq. But the number would be more accurate than My memory.

I will try to get the numbers for both Shaq and Duncan against each other in 2002 and 2003 h2h. Unfortunately I don't have the data for 2004, which also could be interesting.

Regarding Duncan struggling to score on Shaq - it's nothing strange, as Shaq was tremendous post defender due to his length and strength. When you look at Hakeem's numbers in 1995 against Shaq (available thanks to Djoker), he also doesn't look that good at all and the Magic were significantly weaker than the Lakers in help defense.

I won't be surprise if both was struggling to score on each other.

Shaq greatest defensive role might be in the post. Like you said about Hakeem struggling against him which I remember but just briefly ( as it was a long time ago I watched it )is a notable ability Shaq bring to the table. Just having Shaq body is a tremendous amount of Advantage in those areas. Shaq was scoring better against Hakeem defense than the other way around that what I remember fully.

But Shaq on defense would have more weakness cause of his frame and build especially when he got pull tot eh Prerimeter or is force to defend a PnR action. If he was at least good in these areas of defense too I would really rank him much higher.

[70sFan]

His heavy paint and post presence might course some trouble to this era platype which are base on prerimeter Spacing and clocking the timer by pounding the ball in post might not be as reliable as it use to be. Also him not having any long shot variation would hurts for current era offense. Him not having any high level PNR and PNP skillsets is also a weakness. Although I do agree that Center defensive Value can still translate to a high value.

SGA in the playoffs was shooting sub 28.5% on 5 FGA volume from 3pt and he still able to impact offense side of the ball. I don't think 3pt would be a huge detriment to old Guard as much as you think.

Are your reservations regarding Kareem's offense are more due to the uncertainty or the clear weaknesses in his game that you see? Like, for example - do you see anything that would prevent him from being a good P&R player today?

I would say more of uncertainty aspect than a weakness ( I don't think he would have a weakness in those play style which he have attribute that can contribute to ). And I was describing attribute a player didn't use as much or wasn't really établish on a high level in their Era like "One and Done" does to other player so I can try to understand his criteria for older player.

I am afraid that's the lost case, but you can try. From my experience, his criteria are mostly finding arguments for players he likes and against players he doesn't.

[Elpolo_14]

A quick add on MJ vs Hakeem.

We have a year, 1993, which both were pretty good. Hakeem was arguably at his peak, and many voted him for POY that hear over MJ.

I also think Hakeem was better, up until the finals, where MJ detonated for one of the best individual finals by a player.

Now, I also think 1991 MJ was > 1993 MJ, and that's why I have 1991 MJ > 1993 Hakeem.

2000 Shaq, 1964 Russell, 1977 Kareem were all different leagues, so it's obviously a lot harder to compare them than the direct MJ vs Hakeem comparison.

Although MJ final performance against the Suns were all time I would still prefer Hakeem as a player for the whole in year in general.

For me Hakeem was bringing up the best defensive ability since bills Russell with all attribute even with minimal help . And combine with his offensive role that get improve due to a different style of coaching and just by improving in this aspect.

Also MJ in 1993 loses much of his athletically making him a bit weaker in both offense and defense by film watching .

Hakeem 93 > MJ 93 by a significant amount which the final perform won't be able to fill the void.

But if you wanna say MJ 91 is better than Hakeem 93 because he in his offensive peak and near the 80s defensively making him the best Guard ever( I will see your point totally)

[70sFan]

I won't be surprise if both was struggling to score on each other.

They did.

Shaq greatest defensive role might be in the post. Like you said about Hakeem struggling against him which I remember but just briefly ( as it was a long time ago I watched it )is a notable ability Shaq bring to the table. Just having Shaq body is a tremendous amount of Advantage in those areas. Shaq was scoring better against Hakeem defense than the other way around that what I remember fully.

Yeah you can see the numbers here, Hakeem really struggled to score on Shaq:

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2370986

But Shaq on defense would have more weakness cause of his frame and build especially when he got pull tot eh Prerimeter or is force to defend a PnR action. If he was at least good in these areas of defense too I would really rank him much higher.

It's not just that, Shaq had terrible defensive fundamentals all around. He made stupid decisions to foul, he had a bad timing for contests at the rim, his footwork is mediocre and he didn't have a good defensive awareness. He was the best when he could defend someone in the post or contest the drive while standing in the right position - all the other things were weaknesses for him. Well, he had a decent hands and was solid rebounder as well to be fair.