Trade Talk (Part 17): Early Offseason Planning

[cmoss84]

PG: Mike/Sasser/RD
SG: Ant/Clark/TSJ
SF: Avdija/Jaden/TSJ
PF: Jaden/Naz
C: Rudy/Naz/JB[/quote]
Sasser, last time I checked was a streaky shooter and more of an off guard than a PG. Did that change? Unless Sasser has greatly improved I prefer DDV. Avdija is good, but he's far from star material and I'm not giving up Randle for him.[/quote]
Sasser has played all of his games at PG...but maybe he did play a lot of off ball next to Cade? Not sure. But 38% on 3 and 86% FT. Avdija is a star. Might take him a year to adjust to new teammates, but he is a star. On a stupid contract (like, maybe historical).

[KGdaBom]

PG: Mike/Sasser/RD
SG: Ant/Clark/TSJ
SF: Avdija/Jaden/TSJ
PF: Jaden/Naz
C: Rudy/Naz/JB

Sasser, last time I checked was a streaky shooter and more of an off guard than a PG. Did that change? Unless Sasser has greatly improved I prefer DDV. Avdija is good, but he's far from star material and I'm not giving up Randle for him.[/quote]
Sasser has played all of his games at PG...but maybe he did play a lot of off ball next to Cade? Not sure. But 38% on 3 and 86% FT. Avdija is a star. Might take him a year to adjust to new teammates, but he is a star. On a stupid contract (like, maybe historical).[/quote]
I just did a Google search on him. Good shooter no doubt. Benchwarmer. Solid A/TO. You can't assume given more minutes his stats will increase accordingly. Avdija is a player who can put up stats on a bad team. I think on the Wolves. Randle typically dwarfs him in scoring, but this season it was close. Avdija has the benefit of being younger, but I still prefer Randle. IMO lose/lose for the Wolves.

[Norseman79]

Nembhard IMO is nothing more than solid. Not a star. Yeah I know we wouldn't get Kessler. I don't understand why not. We could send out Rocco making Room for Kessler. Why do we want to give up DDV for Huerter? WTF?

Because it's harder to find a starting PG of Nembhard's quality then it is to find a wing like DD or C like Kessler. Positional value matters. Nembhard's floor is solid, his ceiling is a bit above that. I say it that way because he plays out of position a bit next to Haliburton...and is solid. Next to Ant he would handle and initiate more which would show more of his ability. Again, it doesn't matter, the trade won't happen. P.S. next target would be Quickly over White

But why do you have us giving up DDV for Huerter. Just trade Randle if you want Nembhard and get whatever picks or better player out of the deal we can.

The Pacers wouldn't want Randle and need to be smart about salary cap. That limits options for them. As far as the Huerter hate, he had a down year (in Chicago for Pete's sake)....why the hate? He is essentially the same player, a little more expensive about 5 mil, but also 6'7 to Donte 6'4.... Go do a comparison between the two...

[dschroeder01]

Detroit IN: Randle
Detroit OUT: Holland and Sasser

Portland IN: DDV and Holland
Portland OUT: Avdija

MN IN: Avdija and Sasser
MN OUT: Randle and DDV

Avdija is a good player on a great contract, but he's not really a shot creator. We are already trying to upgrade our shot creation to take the pressure off Ant and Avdija is a step back from Randle in that regard even if they're more equal overall as players.

Sasser is a good shooter, but he's just not that good. The Jaden Ivey injury opened up a bigger role for a guard and they played Sasser even less last year. They wouldn't even play him in the playoffs.

[cmoss84]

Detroit IN: Randle
Detroit OUT: Holland and Sasser

Portland IN: DDV and Holland
Portland OUT: Avdija

MN IN: Avdija and Sasser
MN OUT: Randle and DDV

Avdija is a good player on a great contract, but he's not really a shot creator. We are already trying to upgrade our shot creation to take the pressure off Ant and Avdija is a step back from Randle in that regard even if they're more equal overall as players.

Sasser is a good shooter, but he's just not that good. The Jaden Ivey injury opened up a bigger role for a guard and they played Sasser even less last year. They wouldn't even play him in the playoffs.

You and KG bring up good points. My thought process is we split PG 3 ways equal time/hot hand. Then we have $ to address PG in near future.
I guess I'm higher on Avdija...all good. Thanks for the discussion!

[KGdaBom]

Detroit IN: Randle
Detroit OUT: Holland and Sasser

Portland IN: DDV and Holland
Portland OUT: Avdija

MN IN: Avdija and Sasser
MN OUT: Randle and DDV

Avdija is a good player on a great contract, but he's not really a shot creator. We are already trying to upgrade our shot creation to take the pressure off Ant and Avdija is a step back from Randle in that regard even if they're more equal overall as players.

Sasser is a good shooter, but he's just not that good. The Jaden Ivey injury opened up a bigger role for a guard and they played Sasser even less last year. They wouldn't even play him in the playoffs.

You and KG bring up good points. My thought process is we split PG 3 ways equal time/hot hand. Then we have $ to address PG in near future.
I guess I'm higher on Avdija...all good. Thanks for the discussion!

Oh no. The HOT hand.

[minimus]

I'd trade Randle for Avdija in a heartbeat. Avdija is probably one of the most physical drivers in entire NBA, he makes winning games and has fantastic contract. Said this, he is considered untouchable, part of POR young core.

[BlacJacMac]

I'd trade Randle for Avdija in a heartbeat. Avdija is probably one of the most physical drivers in entire NBA, he makes winning games and has fantastic contract. Said this, he is considered untouchable, part of POR young core.

100%. Avdija is literally the guy who does everything well.

[winforlose]

Avdija is a good player on a great contract, but he's not really a shot creator. We are already trying to upgrade our shot creation to take the pressure off Ant and Avdija is a step back from Randle in that regard even if they're more equal overall as players.

Sasser is a good shooter, but he's just not that good. The Jaden Ivey injury opened up a bigger role for a guard and they played Sasser even less last year. They wouldn't even play him in the playoffs.

You and KG bring up good points. My thought process is we split PG 3 ways equal time/hot hand. Then we have $ to address PG in near future.
I guess I'm higher on Avdija...all good. Thanks for the discussion!

Oh no. The HOT hand.

Oh yeah (Kool-Aid man Emoji.)

[minimus]

With Haliburton out, and Nembhard extension kicking in, what is probability of TJ McConnell to be traded, and would be the price? Would be MIN interested? Keep in mind that he is already 33yo

[Norseman79]

With Haliburton out, and Nembhard extension kicking in, what is probability of TJ McConnell to be traded, and would be the price? Would be MIN interested? Keep in mind that he is already 33yo

TJ is the reason I thought we might be able to snipe Nembhard. IF, IF Haliburton will be back during season and TJ can hold it down until he gets there. Hell, I'd offer TSJ, DD and whoever else they want besides AE, McD, Naz, and Joan.

[cmoss84]

Want to really roll the dice and bet on low usage upside to compliment Mike and Rob?

Detroit IN: DDV
Detroit OUT: 2 FRPs, 1 SRP

Cha IN: Randle and SRP
Cha OUT: Ball

MN IN: Ball, 2 FRP
MN OUT: Randle and DDV

[TimberKat]

Want to really roll the dice and bet on low usage upside to compliment Mike and Rob?

Detroit IN: DDV
Detroit OUT: 2 FRPs, 1 SRP

Cha IN: Randle and SRP
Cha OUT: Ball

MN IN: Ball, 2 FRP
MN OUT: Randle and DDV

If we are trading for Ball, I would get a power big from Cha or Det instead of the 2 FRP. Not sure I would do it this summer. Maybe wait to see what Dilly can do first.

[winforlose]

Want to really roll the dice and bet on low usage upside to compliment Mike and Rob?

Detroit IN: DDV
Detroit OUT: 2 FRPs, 1 SRP

Cha IN: Randle and SRP
Cha OUT: Ball

MN IN: Ball, 2 FRP
MN OUT: Randle and DDV

This is an example of not understanding how the apron system works. You take Randles 31 million off the team, you turn DDV’s near 12 into Ball’s 10 million. This saves a ton of money for the owners (well done,) but creates a talent gap you cannot refill. Even if Ball is as good as DDV (he isn’t, nor is he as likely to be available,) you have removed all the talent of Randle with no way to replace it. We cannot sign any player to go above the cap, we cannot easily add salary in trade under the new CBA (no excess money without a hard cap at the first apron,) and we only get the MLE which also hard caps at the first apron. So in essence, we have removed a top 5 player from our rotation, and cannot replace him. That kind of trade is the type you make as tanking team trying to shed salary, (except when taking on bad salary) and acquire picks. We want to add as much salary as possible under the 2nd apron threshold while assembling the best team possible. Also it is worth remembering we have three recent first round picks already in development, and three more seconds behind them. Getting more picks isn’t a major priority.

[cmoss84]

Want to really roll the dice and bet on low usage upside to compliment Mike and Rob?

Detroit IN: DDV
Detroit OUT: 2 FRPs, 1 SRP

Cha IN: Randle and SRP
Cha OUT: Ball

MN IN: Ball, 2 FRP
MN OUT: Randle and DDV

If we are trading for Ball, I would get a power big from Cha or Det instead of the 2 FRP. Not sure I would do it this summer. Maybe wait to see what Dilly can do first.

Good call. I'd be fine with that.

[cmoss84]

Want to really roll the dice and bet on low usage upside to compliment Mike and Rob?

Detroit IN: DDV
Detroit OUT: 2 FRPs, 1 SRP

Cha IN: Randle and SRP
Cha OUT: Ball

MN IN: Ball, 2 FRP
MN OUT: Randle and DDV

This is an example of not understanding how the apron system works. You take Randles 31 million off the team, you turn DDV’s near 12 into Ball’s 10 million. This saves a ton of money for the owners (well done,) but creates a talent gap you cannot refill. Even if Ball is as good as DDV (he isn’t, nor is he as likely to be available,) you have removed all the talent of Randle with no way to replace it. We cannot sign any player to go above the cap, we cannot easily add salary in trade under the new CBA (no excess money without a hard cap at the first apron,) and we only get the MLE which also hard caps at the first apron. So in essence, we have removed a top 5 player from our rotation, and cannot replace him. That kind of trade is the type you make as tanking team trying to shed salary, (except when taking on bad salary) and acquire picks. We want to add as much salary as possible under the 2nd apron threshold while assembling the best team possible. Also it is worth remembering we have three recent first round picks already in development, and three more seconds behind them. Getting more picks isn’t a major priority.

Thanks for explaining.
As TimberKat mentioned, we could get a big instead of the picks. I'm so confused how nba draft picks are valued. If I mention giving them away, people act like the sky is falling. If we get some in return for someone, they aren't worth anything. Who knows.

[winforlose]

Want to really roll the dice and bet on low usage upside to compliment Mike and Rob?

Detroit IN: DDV
Detroit OUT: 2 FRPs, 1 SRP

Cha IN: Randle and SRP
Cha OUT: Ball

MN IN: Ball, 2 FRP
MN OUT: Randle and DDV

This is an example of not understanding how the apron system works. You take Randles 31 million off the team, you turn DDV’s near 12 into Ball’s 10 million. This saves a ton of money for the owners (well done,) but creates a talent gap you cannot refill. Even if Ball is as good as DDV (he isn’t, nor is he as likely to be available,) you have removed all the talent of Randle with no way to replace it. We cannot sign any player to go above the cap, we cannot easily add salary in trade under the new CBA (no excess money without a hard cap at the first apron,) and we only get the MLE which also hard caps at the first apron. So in essence, we have removed a top 5 player from our rotation, and cannot replace him. That kind of trade is the type you make as tanking team trying to shed salary, (except when taking on bad salary) and acquire picks. We want to add as much salary as possible under the 2nd apron threshold while assembling the best team possible. Also it is worth remembering we have three recent first round picks already in development, and three more seconds behind them. Getting more picks isn’t a major priority.

Thanks for explaining.
As TimberKat mentioned, we could get a big instead of the picks. I'm so confused how nba draft picks are valued. If I mention giving them away, people act like the sky is falling. If we get some in return for someone, they aren't worth anything. Who knows.

You misunderstood, so let help to clarify. If you combine a pick with a player you can usually bring back a better player. In that sense the pick is valuable trade currency. But if you cannot bring back salary (again the aprons limit it,) now you cannot use the pick as intended. So if you shed 31 million, you will have a very hard time getting it back. Teams who are near the top want to stay under the 2nd apron, but generally don’t want to go too far below it. It is much harder to add salary than shed it. Moreover, picks take time to develop, whereas we want win now players. In other words picks have different value to different teams in different situations. You never want to waste them, but acquiring them isn’t always the goal.

[Klomp]

With Haliburton out, and Nembhard extension kicking in, what is probability of TJ McConnell to be traded, and would be the price? Would be MIN interested? Keep in mind that he is already 33yo

I literally woke up thinking about this.

I don't know if I want to give up so much 3-point shooting, but I believe Donte DiVincenzo would represent pretty good value for Indiana and I think McConnell would give Minnesota skill sets at the PG position that the team needs.

This would also open up even more minutes for TJ Shannon, who I believe is ready for that kind of role.

[Klomp]

Want to really roll the dice and bet on low usage upside to compliment Mike and Rob?

Detroit IN: DDV
Detroit OUT: 2 FRPs, 1 SRP

Cha IN: Randle and SRP
Cha OUT: Ball

MN IN: Ball, 2 FRP
MN OUT: Randle and DDV

This is an example of not understanding how the apron system works. You take Randles 31 million off the team, you turn DDV’s near 12 into Ball’s 10 million. This saves a ton of money for the owners (well done,) but creates a talent gap you cannot refill. Even if Ball is as good as DDV (he isn’t, nor is he as likely to be available,) you have removed all the talent of Randle with no way to replace it. We cannot sign any player to go above the cap, we cannot easily add salary in trade under the new CBA (no excess money without a hard cap at the first apron,) and we only get the MLE which also hard caps at the first apron. So in essence, we have removed a top 5 player from our rotation, and cannot replace him. That kind of trade is the type you make as tanking team trying to shed salary, (except when taking on bad salary) and acquire picks. We want to add as much salary as possible under the 2nd apron threshold while assembling the best team possible. Also it is worth remembering we have three recent first round picks already in development, and three more seconds behind them. Getting more picks isn’t a major priority.

'Ball doesn't make $10 million.

[minimus]

With Haliburton out, and Nembhard extension kicking in, what is probability of TJ McConnell to be traded, and would be the price? Would be MIN interested? Keep in mind that he is already 33yo

I literally woke up thinking about this.

I don't know if I want to give up so much 3-point shooting, but I believe Donte DiVincenzo would represent pretty good value for Indiana and I think McConnell would give Minnesota skill sets at the PG position that the team needs.

This would also open up even more minutes for TJ Shannon, who I believe is ready for that kind of role.

DDV for McConnell

Gobert/Reid/Beringer + Zikarsky
Randle/McDaniels/TJ
McDaniels/TJ/Clark
Edwards/Clark/???
Conley/McConnell/Dilly

I think that this move might bring multiple side effects:

First and the most obvious: it will push Rob development down in priority list for one more year. Which is a very sensitive theme, because Rob might not be ready for big minutes, but still needs consistent development minutes. Second, it will shift more focus from DDV as main bench scorer/shooter to Reid/TJ/McDaniels, with McDaniels playing more PF minutes in smallball unit, because I believe that with McConnell they should play fast and Reid can compensate loss of DDV three point shooing. That said, I feel like bringing here an experienced veteran such as McConnell might hurt short term Dilly development, but also might be a big investment in Reid/TJ/McDaniels development.