GT: 7/13 | Summer League | Raptors Vs Magic | 6EST | SN 360

[tsherkin]

I disagree on the bold-ed part. At the start of last season, Gradey did demonstrate this capability. This entirely based on me simply watching games, but there was a stretch of about 20 games at the start of last season where he was demonstrating this capability. I also felt through the course of last year, he was highly disrespected by the refs, which further hurt his non-three point shooting stats.

All subjective based on what I observed watching the games, but I don't think it is accurate to say he didn't demonstrate a more fulsome offensive game than Battle has, or to say that he was quite bad in this regard.

I think the main concern with Gradey is that even LIGHT contest heavily reduces his efficacy from 3. So he's really on good when he's solidly wide open.

If and when he starts to be able to hit with a defender like 4, 5 feet away, though, then he opens up rather nicely in a wide variety of areas. He also needs a short game and to learn how to finish at the basket, but that's another story. The middie was actually super nice this year, so that's another point of interest. He's flashed a bunch of intriguing potential on O.

[YogurtProducer]

Do you want me the post the list of scrubs who shot 40% just in the NBA last year? There's no shortage of guys capable of doing exactly that in low minute/usage roles as Battle did; it doesn't make them good players at the NBA level (particularly if they do nothing else of actual value).

Love your confidence when there are legit stats out there that can just show you that you are well... wrong.

Battle C+S 3 = 40.4%
Dick C+S 3 = 38.3%

Battle open 3 = 41.6%
Dick open 3 = 35.3%

Battle wide open 3 = 42.3%
Dick wide open 3 = 43.0%

Defensively, Battle is also better than Dick. Generally in better positions, a little stronger, etc.

Dick certainly has more potential as an off-ball guy running through screens but so far it is all potential - he really hasn't done much to show that he can do that at an NBA level at all. He frankly has been quite bad at it.

Based off their last season (because IDC what happened in 2021 when making decisions lol) Battle was a better player than Dick. Doesn't mean he will be going forward but if we start this year and Battle and Dick perform the same as 2024/25, the minutes are Battles.

I disagree on the bold-ed part. At the start of last season, Gradey did demonstrate this capability. This entirely based on me simply watching games, but there was a stretch of about 20 games at the start of last season where he was demonstrating this capability. I also felt through the course of last year, he was highly disrespected by the refs, which further hurt his non-three point shooting stats.

All subjective based on what I observed watching the games, but I don't think it is accurate to say he didn't demonstrate a more fulsome offensive game than Battle has, or to say that he was quite bad in this regard.

Dick certainly showed he can take shots, but he didn't really show he can make those shots.

I assume you are referring to the first 18 or so games before he got hurt. In those games he averaged 18ppg on .417/.342 splits (55.6TS%). His 3 point shooting was still fairly underwhelming. So yeah, it still is all theoretical at this point.


I hope he figures it out but I fear he is a guy who is just never gonna be a massive impact guy. Even if he gets his 3 point efficiency up, he has been such a target defensively that it limits his ability to play big minutes. His next contract is likely going to more strongly reflect his base box score #'s than his actual impact as well IMO

[ill-Will03]

We are definitely not in the position to be gifting minutes to anyone. Even if they are lotto picks. Fact of the matter is if it’s not battle it’ll be someone else taking Gradeys minutes if he doesn’t show improvement.

I’m really not sure what Randle is talking about tbh. I asked him to list 3 players who averaged 40% from 3 and the best he came up with was Jalen Harris lol

[OakleyDokely]

I like Battle because he knows his role and does it well. Opens 3s, pick and pops. Doesn't try to do too much or take shots that he can't make. There will be a role for him if he keeps shooting 3s at that kind of clip.

[kalel123]

Gradey was eligible for the summer league he should have been a part of it. Players like Walter, Dick, Martin and other undersized wings who can't handle the ball aren't going to special in the NBA.

What would he gain by participating? He's already been there twice and he hasn't been super impressive as we've already seen summer league isn't particularly good for someone with his game. If he kills it, he's supposed to. But if he is mediocre, it kills his confidence. I don't know what reason there would possibly be for him to play another summer league when most 3rd year players worth a damn typically don't play it. For a good reason. If he needs reps, he needs to get it somewhere else.

The primary thing would be using the pick and roll to start an action and get off a 3pt shot. If he isn't able to get up good volume it won't help our spacing issues. We have a 2 year sample size of over 100 games. He only gets off 5 a game as a bench player, that should be closer to 8 or even 9. His percentage isn't great either at 35.6%. I'm not a big believer in Gradey he's going to be 22 when the season starts. His defense is still bad too and he can't bring his specialty skill when he plays. It's definitely a problem.

Gradually bringing that up in the Summer League would have been great for him.

None of those problems would be solved playing in summer league. It'd be better for him to get those reps in summer runs with his teammates. Absolutely nothing to gain playing with and against summer league scrubs trying to get those reps when there's stark difference between summer league competition and the real league. And everything to lose if he struggles for whatever reason or, worse, sustain an injury. There's a good reason why teams shut down top prospects from summer league once they figure those guys are good to go.

[Johnny Bball]

Might have been one ofthe best or most competetive SL game I've ever seen.

[ATLTimekeeper]

I disagree on the bold-ed part. At the start of last season, Gradey did demonstrate this capability. This entirely based on me simply watching games, but there was a stretch of about 20 games at the start of last season where he was demonstrating this capability. I also felt through the course of last year, he was highly disrespected by the refs, which further hurt his non-three point shooting stats.

All subjective based on what I observed watching the games, but I don't think it is accurate to say he didn't demonstrate a more fulsome offensive game than Battle has, or to say that he was quite bad in this regard.

I think the main concern with Gradey is that even LIGHT contest heavily reduces his efficacy from 3. So he's really on good when he's solidly wide open.

If and when he starts to be able to hit with a defender like 4, 5 feet away, though, then he opens up rather nicely in a wide variety of areas. He also needs a short game and to learn how to finish at the basket, but that's another story. The middie was actually super nice this year, so that's another point of interest. He's flashed a bunch of intriguing potential on O.

Usually he's driving on closeouts, which is what Darko wants. Tighter coverage 3s tend to be step backs from primary scorers, or someone that just has no handle at all (Duncan Robinson). For the kind of shooter Gradey is, they're likely aiming for Cam Johnson-style utility. If Cam has anyone close to him at the 3PT line he's moving past him, and then the next level is that pull-up 2 with a hand in the face (which Cam is excellent at and Gradey is just okay at.

For Gradey I think a lot of work needs to be put into finishing. He tries more than he succeeds, but he gets to the rim a decent amount. He plays a rugged style, but his body or skill aren't there yet. This is a big year for him, and I think the team will need him more than fans realize.

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

Why do people think Grady's minutes are linked to his defense? Is Ingram's? No. We added a bunch of cheap defensive players for a reason.

We need the offense.

[bobbyp3588]

Why do people think Grady's minutes are linked to his defense? Is Ingram's? No. We added a bunch of cheap defensive players for a reason.

We need the offense.

Hmmm…. Nope. That’s not right at all. You can’t compare Dick to BI offensively. Dick is much more limited and the best you’ll ever hear spoken about his D is that he tries.

I’d argue we need net positive players more than scorers who give up as much or more than they get.

[deck]

Love your confidence when there are legit stats out there that can just show you that you are well... wrong.

Battle C+S 3 = 40.4%
Dick C+S 3 = 38.3%

Battle open 3 = 41.6%
Dick open 3 = 35.3%

Battle wide open 3 = 42.3%
Dick wide open 3 = 43.0%

Defensively, Battle is also better than Dick. Generally in better positions, a little stronger, etc.

Dick certainly has more potential as an off-ball guy running through screens but so far it is all potential - he really hasn't done much to show that he can do that at an NBA level at all. He frankly has been quite bad at it.

Based off their last season (because IDC what happened in 2021 when making decisions lol) Battle was a better player than Dick. Doesn't mean he will be going forward but if we start this year and Battle and Dick perform the same as 2024/25, the minutes are Battles.

I disagree on the bold-ed part. At the start of last season, Gradey did demonstrate this capability. This entirely based on me simply watching games, but there was a stretch of about 20 games at the start of last season where he was demonstrating this capability. I also felt through the course of last year, he was highly disrespected by the refs, which further hurt his non-three point shooting stats.

All subjective based on what I observed watching the games, but I don't think it is accurate to say he didn't demonstrate a more fulsome offensive game than Battle has, or to say that he was quite bad in this regard.

Dick certainly showed he can take shots, but he didn't really show he can make those shots.

I assume you are referring to the first 18 or so games before he got hurt. In those games he averaged 18ppg on .417/.342 splits (55.6TS%). His 3 point shooting was still fairly underwhelming. So yeah, it still is all theoretical at this point.


I hope he figures it out but I fear he is a guy who is just never gonna be a massive impact guy. Even if he gets his 3 point efficiency up, he has been such a target defensively that it limits his ability to play big minutes. His next contract is likely going to more strongly reflect his base box score #'s than his actual impact as well IMO

I am referring to the October and November time frame last year, yes. Fully acknowledge that Gradey's TS needs to be better, but when watching the games in that time frame, he did demonstrate that he can operate as an off the ball offensive player. He didn't do that with good efficiency, but I wouldn't call it all theoretical. And he has certainly demonstrated that capability far more than Battle has, as an example.

I like both players, to be sure. Just commenting that during that limited time-frame, I for one was excited watching what Gradey was able to do.

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

Why do people think Grady's minutes are linked to his defense? Is Ingram's? No. We added a bunch of cheap defensive players for a reason.

We need the offense.

Hmmm…. Nope. That’s not right at all. You can’t compare Dick to BI offensively. Dick is much more limited and the best you’ll ever hear spoken about his D is that he tries.

I’d argue we need net positive players more than scorers who give up as much or more than they get.

BI's a slightly taller, less athletic...more expensive version of the same thing. Just on a different time line.

[Dalek]

I am not ready to pencil in Battle for anything other than some spare bench minutes. He went 1-6 from three and unless he is spoon-fed open looks I am not super confident in him. I know he had a good year shooting, but he has a very pronounced hitch in his shot and I think we will see more aggressive close-outs in year two as teams will adjust to him. Everything is easy as an undrafted rookie that no one has on scouting reports.

Overall, this teams to get used to the high energy defense while still having legs to shoot it. We shot something like 63% from the FT line and 31% from three on 26 shots. It is SL and a small sample, but we will have to find a balance between defense and being able to run the offense. It's exciting, but I have concerns if this will work long-term.

[tsherkin]

Usually he's driving on closeouts, which is what Darko wants. Tighter coverage 3s tend to be step backs from primary scorers, or someone that just has no handle at all (Duncan Robinson). For the kind of shooter Gradey is, they're likely aiming for Cam Johnson-style utility. If Cam has anyone close to him at the 3PT line he's moving past him, and then the next level is that pull-up 2 with a hand in the face (which Cam is excellent at and Gradey is just okay at.

He was taking 2.9 of them per game with a defender 4-6 feet away. He needs to be able to make those at a better percentage to maintain his present usage and to advance his offensive value far enough that it outpaces his defense. Attacking close-outs is good and all, but shots with a defender 4-6 feet away are still going to remain a steady part of his shot diet if we want to run any sort of volume through him without just camping him in one spot.

[mademan]

Why do people think Grady's minutes are linked to his defense? Is Ingram's? No. We added a bunch of cheap defensive players for a reason.

We need the offense.

Hmmm…. Nope. That’s not right at all. You can’t compare Dick to BI offensively. Dick is much more limited and the best you’ll ever hear spoken about his D is that he tries.

I’d argue we need net positive players more than scorers who give up as much or more than they get.

BI's a slightly taller, less athletic...more expensive version of the same thing. Just on a different time line.

BI is a proven star level player in the NBA while Dick still has not outplayed UFA Jamison Battle. This is a crazy comp

[Boogie!]

ya I am really dreading this and dont think it will suit his coaching well..

He's too much of a nice guy and will probably try and give too many guys mins to our detriment..

Are we really expecting him to bench RJ for CMB mid-season if things play out into a situation that he should?

I dont

Why would Rj be benched in favour of cmb? They play different positions…

Please..its pretty much positional -less basketball at this point..

there's like 100 different lineup variations where CMB could take RJ mins, hes a wing+big

ex.

Quickley-Ingram-Dick-Scottie-CMB

Quickley-Ingram-Ochai-CMB-Scottie

Quickley-Walter-CMB-Scottie-Poeltl

1000 more variations..

If RJ continues to be one of the worst OVERALL shooters in the league as a wing, poor defence, lacking overall impact and CMB has a rookie season of positive overall impact on the floor then we will be in that situation especially considering we have like 5 other guys who can play RJ role and POTENTIALLY more efficiently (Ingram, Ochai, Walter, Dick, etc.)

be abit less rigid and open your mind to the more realistic lineup versatility that can play out with all the guys+ depth we have.

In your examples Walter and dick would be the replacements for Rj in the lineup not cmb, and Rj is better than both of them.

[Dennis 37]

Might have been one ofthe best or most competetive SL game I've ever seen.

What really ticks me off is when the game is tied 79-79 we have to listen to, not an interview about the Magic, not an interview about the Raptors, but an interview about the Florida Gators bball program. Then, when the interviewers get a clue that there is a game in progress, the say, "There's a really good game going on."

Really? You noticed did you ? Stupid ESPN.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Usually he's driving on closeouts, which is what Darko wants. Tighter coverage 3s tend to be step backs from primary scorers, or someone that just has no handle at all (Duncan Robinson). For the kind of shooter Gradey is, they're likely aiming for Cam Johnson-style utility. If Cam has anyone close to him at the 3PT line he's moving past him, and then the next level is that pull-up 2 with a hand in the face (which Cam is excellent at and Gradey is just okay at.

He was taking 2.9 of them per game with a defender 4-6 feet away. He needs to be able to make those at a better percentage to maintain his present usage and to advance his offensive value far enough that it outpaces his defense. Attacking close-outs is good and all, but shots with a defender 4-6 feet away are still going to remain a steady part of his shot diet if we want to run any sort of volume through him without just camping him in one spot.

Oh you're talking about "open shots." His percentage last year was like 35% on those, which is fine for his age and experience. He'll probably go up and down between 35 to 40% his whole career on those.

[tsherkin]

Oh you're talking about "open shots." His percentage last year was like 35% on those, which is fine for his age and experience. He'll probably go up and down between 35 to 40% his whole career on those.

Yes, I agree that he has potential there, I was just noting that it is a primary concern for his game right now because the other things he does aren't really at a relevant level yet. They need work, which is fine. He's young, he has a season and a half of experience, we're being patient. We don't know if he's going to be able to develop there, but we DO know he's a nasty shooter when he's wide open. When the defender gets a little closer, we need him to be shooting better.

And we agree, there's a good chance he'll adjust to that with more experience. And that it's good that he's already trying to establish himself attacking closeouts and stuff. I think well of Gradey's offensive potential.

[ConSarnit]

Love your confidence when there are legit stats out there that can just show you that you are well... wrong.

Battle C+S 3 = 40.4%
Dick C+S 3 = 38.3%

Battle open 3 = 41.6%
Dick open 3 = 35.3%

Battle wide open 3 = 42.3%
Dick wide open 3 = 43.0%

Defensively, Battle is also better than Dick. Generally in better positions, a little stronger, etc.

Dick certainly has more potential as an off-ball guy running through screens but so far it is all potential - he really hasn't done much to show that he can do that at an NBA level at all. He frankly has been quite bad at it.

Based off their last season (because IDC what happened in 2021 when making decisions lol) Battle was a better player than Dick. Doesn't mean he will be going forward but if we start this year and Battle and Dick perform the same as 2024/25, the minutes are Battles.

I disagree on the bold-ed part. At the start of last season, Gradey did demonstrate this capability. This entirely based on me simply watching games, but there was a stretch of about 20 games at the start of last season where he was demonstrating this capability. I also felt through the course of last year, he was highly disrespected by the refs, which further hurt his non-three point shooting stats.

All subjective based on what I observed watching the games, but I don't think it is accurate to say he didn't demonstrate a more fulsome offensive game than Battle has, or to say that he was quite bad in this regard.

Dick certainly showed he can take shots, but he didn't really show he can make those shots.

I assume you are referring to the first 18 or so games before he got hurt. In those games he averaged 18ppg on .417/.342 splits (55.6TS%). His 3 point shooting was still fairly underwhelming. So yeah, it still is all theoretical at this point.


I hope he figures it out but I fear he is a guy who is just never gonna be a massive impact guy. Even if he gets his 3 point efficiency up, he has been such a target defensively that it limits his ability to play big minutes. His next contract is likely going to more strongly reflect his base box score #'s than his actual impact as well IMO

Dick is taking the most difficult 3pa of anyone on the team outside of IQ. His off-screen frequency is higher than Battle’s and he’s taking almost 65% of his 3pa from above the break. Battle is at sub 50% on his ATB frequency.

Battle has better 3pt shooting stats than Dick but he is unquestionably taking easier 3’s. Overall it’s tough to parse out who is really better. Wide open stats and c&s stats don’t tell the whole story as a player shooting off a screen (which Dick does more often and from more difficult areas on the floor) is lumped in with a standstill c&s (which Battle does more often).

I don’t know who the better shooter is but we know for a fact that Battle is getting easier shots.

[causal_fan]

Lawson has had a good summer league - has he improved according to the eye test for those who watched and is he still lackadaisical with the ball? I'm starting to think the Raptors need to keep him.