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The Official 2025 Offseason Thread #4 Free Agency Opens!

Moderators: bwgood77, lilfishi22, Qwigglez

How many wins do you expect the Suns to have this season?

61+
3
4%
56-60
0
No votes
51-55
0
No votes
46-50
4
5%
41-45
14
19%
36-40
13
17%
31-35
22
29%
26-30
14
19%
25 or under
5
7%
 
Total votes: 75

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Re: The Official 2025 Offseason Thread #4 Free Agency Opens! 

Post#1281 » by Waylay13 » Mon Jul 14, 2025 8:16 pm

BobbieL wrote:


So let me get this straight
Beal is owed:
2025/2026 - -53,666,270

2026//2027 - 57, 128, 610
Total: 110,794, 880

If Beal gets 25% of the upcoming season salary, that would be $13.416 - that reduces what Beal is owed down to $40,249703 this year and the$57m plus next year

As the article states that would be $97.4m stretched or $19.475 - which is too high
But if you take off 5.3m for the TPE - that would get the Suns in line

Under this scenario, Beal will end up getting well over $105m of the $110m owed to hin

If that is the case - Ishbia is really pretty damn terrible at this. Beal will have only given up 5.3m and other owners will see Ishbia for what he is
A stooge. Again, if this is how it plays out.

So this year, the cap number would the $13.4+19.4 or almost 33-- plus if he uses the TPE - another $5.3m - so thats over 38
Beal was only getting 53m

How is paying out $38m this year instead of $53m -- while adding three years of dead money that great of a deal? I hope this article is not accurate but I have a feeling it will be.


The real question is if by waving and stretching Beal how much money does it save off the tax bill that the Suns are going to have to pay. A couple hundred million in saving could be real team saver.
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Re: The Official 2025 Offseason Thread #4 Free Agency Opens! 

Post#1282 » by BobbieL » Mon Jul 14, 2025 8:30 pm

Waylay13 wrote:
BobbieL wrote:


So let me get this straight
Beal is owed:
2025/2026 - -53,666,270

2026//2027 - 57, 128, 610
Total: 110,794, 880

If Beal gets 25% of the upcoming season salary, that would be $13.416 - that reduces what Beal is owed down to $40,249703 this year and the$57m plus next year

As the article states that would be $97.4m stretched or $19.475 - which is too high
But if you take off 5.3m for the TPE - that would get the Suns in line

Under this scenario, Beal will end up getting well over $105m of the $110m owed to hin

If that is the case - Ishbia is really pretty damn terrible at this. Beal will have only given up 5.3m and other owners will see Ishbia for what he is
A stooge. Again, if this is how it plays out.

So this year, the cap number would the $13.4+19.4 or almost 33-- plus if he uses the TPE - another $5.3m - so thats over 38
Beal was only getting 53m

How is paying out $38m this year instead of $53m -- while adding three years of dead money that great of a deal? I hope this article is not accurate but I have a feeling it will be.


The real question is if by waving and stretching Beal how much money does it save off the tax bill that the Suns are going to have to pay. A couple hundred million in saving could be real team saver.



If the first year is truly 32 for Beal plus the TPE -- that does lower the tax Bill -- not sure how much a net $15m is worth - maybe $90m is 6x for the repeater
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Re: The Official 2025 Offseason Thread #4 Free Agency Opens! 

Post#1283 » by dremill24 » Mon Jul 14, 2025 8:50 pm

BobbieL wrote:
Waylay13 wrote:
BobbieL wrote:
So let me get this straight
Beal is owed:
2025/2026 - -53,666,270

2026//2027 - 57, 128, 610
Total: 110,794, 880

If Beal gets 25% of the upcoming season salary, that would be $13.416 - that reduces what Beal is owed down to $40,249703 this year and the$57m plus next year

As the article states that would be $97.4m stretched or $19.475 - which is too high
But if you take off 5.3m for the TPE - that would get the Suns in line

Under this scenario, Beal will end up getting well over $105m of the $110m owed to hin

If that is the case - Ishbia is really pretty damn terrible at this. Beal will have only given up 5.3m and other owners will see Ishbia for what he is
A stooge. Again, if this is how it plays out.

So this year, the cap number would the $13.4+19.4 or almost 33-- plus if he uses the TPE - another $5.3m - so thats over 38
Beal was only getting 53m

How is paying out $38m this year instead of $53m -- while adding three years of dead money that great of a deal? I hope this article is not accurate but I have a feeling it will be.


The real question is if by waving and stretching Beal how much money does it save off the tax bill that the Suns are going to have to pay. A couple hundred million in saving could be real team saver.



If the first year is truly 32 for Beal plus the TPE -- that does lower the tax Bill -- not sure how much a net $15m is worth - maybe $90m is 6x for the repeater


Admittedly, I don't have every part of this covered down to the T, but I have not seen anything to suggest that this wrinkle would affect anything other than the payment schedule for Beal. A cap hit is a cap hit regardless of the payment schedule. His payments will be stretched out after his cap hit is stretched, so waiting until after this initial lump sum to buy out the contract just gets him a chunk of money sooner than if they had already completed it. Even an offset from his newly signed contract would only reduce it by like ~$100-150k. I would just count on the ~$19.3-19.4M cap number for the next five season unless told otherwise by a real capologist.
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Re: The Official 2025 Offseason Thread #4 Free Agency Opens! 

Post#1284 » by BobbieL » Mon Jul 14, 2025 9:48 pm

dremill24 wrote:
BobbieL wrote:
Waylay13 wrote:
The real question is if by waving and stretching Beal how much money does it save off the tax bill that the Suns are going to have to pay. A couple hundred million in saving could be real team saver.



If the first year is truly 32 for Beal plus the TPE -- that does lower the tax Bill -- not sure how much a net $15m is worth - maybe $90m is 6x for the repeater


Admittedly, I don't have every part of this covered down to the T, but I have not seen anything to suggest that this wrinkle would affect anything other than the payment schedule for Beal. A cap hit is a cap hit regardless of the payment schedule. His payments will be stretched out after his cap hit is stretched, so waiting until after this initial lump sum to buy out the contract just gets him a chunk of money sooner than if they had already completed it. Even an offset from his newly signed contract would only reduce it by like ~$100-150k. I would just count on the ~$19.3-19.4M cap number for the next five season unless told otherwise by a real capologist.


But if he gets paid the 25% up front and they stretch the other 95m -- -- that doesn't seem like a "deal"
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Re: The Official 2025 Offseason Thread #4 Free Agency Opens! 

Post#1285 » by dremill24 » Mon Jul 14, 2025 9:55 pm

BobbieL wrote:
dremill24 wrote:
BobbieL wrote:

If the first year is truly 32 for Beal plus the TPE -- that does lower the tax Bill -- not sure how much a net $15m is worth - maybe $90m is 6x for the repeater


Admittedly, I don't have every part of this covered down to the T, but I have not seen anything to suggest that this wrinkle would affect anything other than the payment schedule for Beal. A cap hit is a cap hit regardless of the payment schedule. His payments will be stretched out after his cap hit is stretched, so waiting until after this initial lump sum to buy out the contract just gets him a chunk of money sooner than if they had already completed it. Even an offset from his newly signed contract would only reduce it by like ~$100-150k. I would just count on the ~$19.3-19.4M cap number for the next five season unless told otherwise by a real capologist.


But if he gets paid the 25% up front and they stretch the other 95m -- -- that doesn't seem like a "deal"


What "deal?" If he's going to get $19.4mil this season after a buyout and stretch, but he already got $13.4mil or whatever it is in this lump payment, then he just has $6mil more to come to him this season. He counts against the cap/tax the same as a $19.4mil hit.
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Re: The Official 2025 Offseason Thread #4 Free Agency Opens! 

Post#1286 » by SkyBill40 » Mon Jul 14, 2025 9:59 pm

TeamTragic wrote:
sunsbum wrote:
sunsbg wrote:
How? Remove CP3 and Dominayton and he's a career loser just like Beal.
pippen is a career loser w/o Jordan, Klay Thompson w/o Steph blah blah blah


Disagree. Thompson just pulled Megan Thee Stallion.


And that's somehow seen as an accomplishment? Really?
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Re: The Official 2025 Offseason Thread #4 Free Agency Opens! 

Post#1287 » by KdoubleDees23 » Mon Jul 14, 2025 10:14 pm

SkyBill40 wrote:
TeamTragic wrote:
sunsbum wrote: pippen is a career loser w/o Jordan, Klay Thompson w/o Steph blah blah blah


Disagree. Thompson just pulled Megan Thee Stallion.


And that's somehow seen as an accomplishment? Really?


Meg Thee Stallion has miles and a lot of dudes pulled it . She a heaux
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Re: The Official 2025 Offseason Thread #4 Free Agency Opens! 

Post#1288 » by TeamTragic » Mon Jul 14, 2025 10:36 pm

SkyBill40 wrote:
TeamTragic wrote:
sunsbum wrote: pippen is a career loser w/o Jordan, Klay Thompson w/o Steph blah blah blah


Disagree. Thompson just pulled Megan Thee Stallion.


And that's somehow seen as an accomplishment? Really?


It was a joke dude. Relax.
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Re: The Official 2025 Offseason Thread #4 Free Agency Opens! 

Post#1289 » by lilfishi22 » Mon Jul 14, 2025 11:27 pm

BobbieL wrote:


So let me get this straight
Beal is owed:
2025/2026 - -53,666,270

2026//2027 - 57, 128, 610
Total: 110,794, 880

If Beal gets 25% of the upcoming season salary, that would be $13.416 - that reduces what Beal is owed down to $40,249703 this year and the$57m plus next year

As the article states that would be $97.4m stretched or $19.475 - which is too high
But if you take off 5.3m for the TPE - that would get the Suns in line

Under this scenario, Beal will end up getting well over $105m of the $110m owed to hin

If that is the case - Ishbia is really pretty damn terrible at this. Beal will have only given up 5.3m and other owners will see Ishbia for what he is
A stooge. Again, if this is how it plays out.

So this year, the cap number would the $13.4+19.4 or almost 33-- plus if he uses the TPE - another $5.3m - so thats over 38
Beal was only getting 53m

How is paying out $38m this year instead of $53m -- while adding three years of dead money that great of a deal? I hope this article is not accurate but I have a feeling it will be.

This article reads like cope to me.

Unless I'm reading it wrong, Beal essentially gives up less money than we needed him to (because we've already paid it out) but the stretch amount is more or less the same as if he had to agree to a reduced buyout. It's win-win for Beal....but I guess we can still stretch him, yay....
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Re: The Official 2025 Offseason Thread #4 Free Agency Opens! 

Post#1290 » by lilfishi22 » Mon Jul 14, 2025 11:33 pm

dremill24 wrote:
BobbieL wrote:
dremill24 wrote:
Admittedly, I don't have every part of this covered down to the T, but I have not seen anything to suggest that this wrinkle would affect anything other than the payment schedule for Beal. A cap hit is a cap hit regardless of the payment schedule. His payments will be stretched out after his cap hit is stretched, so waiting until after this initial lump sum to buy out the contract just gets him a chunk of money sooner than if they had already completed it. Even an offset from his newly signed contract would only reduce it by like ~$100-150k. I would just count on the ~$19.3-19.4M cap number for the next five season unless told otherwise by a real capologist.


But if he gets paid the 25% up front and they stretch the other 95m -- -- that doesn't seem like a "deal"


What "deal?" If he's going to get $19.4mil this season after a buyout and stretch, but he already got $13.4mil or whatever it is in this lump payment, then he just has $6mil more to come to him this season. He counts against the cap/tax the same as a $19.4mil hit.

The actual cash payment to the player isn’t spread out over the stretch years though. The player receives the buyout amount either as a lump sum up front or on the same regular payment schedule they would’ve had if the buyout hadn’t happened. The stretched salary ie ~$19m over 5 years is only for salary cap purposes.
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Re: The Official 2025 Offseason Thread #4 Free Agency Opens! 

Post#1291 » by dremill24 » Mon Jul 14, 2025 11:36 pm

lilfishi22 wrote:
dremill24 wrote:
BobbieL wrote:
But if he gets paid the 25% up front and they stretch the other 95m -- -- that doesn't seem like a "deal"


What "deal?" If he's going to get $19.4mil this season after a buyout and stretch, but he already got $13.4mil or whatever it is in this lump payment, then he just has $6mil more to come to him this season. He counts against the cap/tax the same as a $19.4mil hit.


The actual cash payment to the player isn’t spread out over the stretch years though. The player receives the buyout amount either as a lump sum up front or on the same regular payment schedule they would’ve had if the buyout hadn’t happened. The stretched salary ie ~$19m over 5 years is only for salary cap purposes.


Hm, I thought I saw Smith or Marks say the player payments get stretched. Maybe that's wrong.

Either way, the stretched cap hit is the stretched cap hit (~19.4M), that's what goes to tax/apron calculations, so that's what should matter to us as impact to roster construction.
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Re: The Official 2025 Offseason Thread #4 Free Agency Opens! 

Post#1292 » by lilfishi22 » Tue Jul 15, 2025 12:18 am

dremill24 wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:
dremill24 wrote:
What "deal?" If he's going to get $19.4mil this season after a buyout and stretch, but he already got $13.4mil or whatever it is in this lump payment, then he just has $6mil more to come to him this season. He counts against the cap/tax the same as a $19.4mil hit.


The actual cash payment to the player isn’t spread out over the stretch years though. The player receives the buyout amount either as a lump sum up front or on the same regular payment schedule they would’ve had if the buyout hadn’t happened. The stretched salary ie ~$19m over 5 years is only for salary cap purposes.


Hm, I thought I saw Smith or Marks say the player payments get stretched. Maybe that's wrong.

Either way, the stretched cap hit is the stretched cap hit (~19.4M), that's what goes to tax/apron calculations, so that's what should matter to us as impact to roster construction.

Everywhere I've read suggests the stretching of salary is for cap purposes only.

But yes, the $19.4m is what is in the books for the next 5 years which just goes to the point that we didn't really gain anything, it just makes negotiations a little bit easier because the give up from Beal's end is less.
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Re: The Official 2025 Offseason Thread #4 Free Agency Opens! 

Post#1293 » by Fo-Real » Tue Jul 15, 2025 12:19 am

dremill24 wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:
dremill24 wrote:
What "deal?" If he's going to get $19.4mil this season after a buyout and stretch, but he already got $13.4mil or whatever it is in this lump payment, then he just has $6mil more to come to him this season. He counts against the cap/tax the same as a $19.4mil hit.


The actual cash payment to the player isn’t spread out over the stretch years though. The player receives the buyout amount either as a lump sum up front or on the same regular payment schedule they would’ve had if the buyout hadn’t happened. The stretched salary ie ~$19m over 5 years is only for salary cap purposes.


Hm, I thought I saw Smith or Marks say the player payments get stretched. Maybe that's wrong.

Either way, the stretched cap hit is the stretched cap hit (~19.4M), that's what goes to tax/apron calculations, so that's what should matter to us as impact to roster construction.


Thought I saw someone say the payments get stretched, so Beal wanted to wait til this date to get tgat bulk cash payout before letting us stretch the rest. Either way, its the same to us.
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Re: The Official 2025 Offseason Thread #4 Free Agency Opens! 

Post#1294 » by WeekapaugGroove » Tue Jul 15, 2025 12:59 am

Payments to players aren't paid out over 5 years for a strech. Not sure why this balloon payment would matter for a buy/out stretch.

A trade it could, Suns pay 25% of the real cash then trade him would be less expensive in real money for the team acquiring Beal. (Cap/tax/ect is unchanged). But I haven't heard much about any trades with Beal so shrug
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Re: The Official 2025 Offseason Thread #4 Free Agency Opens! 

Post#1295 » by bigfoot » Tue Jul 15, 2025 2:06 am

WeekapaugGroove wrote:Payments to players aren't paid out over 5 years for a strech. Not sure why this balloon payment would matter for a buy/out stretch.

A trade it could, Suns pay 25% of the real cash then trade him would be less expensive in real money for the team acquiring Beal. (Cap/tax/ect is unchanged). But I haven't heard much about any trades with Beal so shrug



I think what people are missing is the "right of offset" clause. It is possible the Suns insist on the having some type of salary offset. That is, Beal being paid by another team means the Suns get a refund of both salary and cap space. So if Beal signed with the Clippers, the impact on the Suns cap is roughly $19M minus the offset computation. The key is getting under the lux tax, out of the repeater tax, and jettisoning Beal. Those three are all big wins.

AI GENERATED

nba right of offset
In the NBA, the "right of offset" (or set-off) is a provision in the Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA) that allows a team that has waived a player to reduce its financial obligation to that player if the player signs with another professional team.
Here's how it works:

  • Waiving a player: When an NBA team waives a player, they are still responsible for paying the player's guaranteed salary according to the original contract. This money continues to count against the team's salary cap, creating what is known as "dead money" or "dead cap hit".
  • Player signs elsewhere: If that player then signs a contract with another professional team (which could be another NBA team, a G-League team, or an overseas club), the original team can exercise its right of offset.
  • Offset Calculation: The amount of the offset is calculated using a formula defined in the CBA. The formula involves subtracting the applicable minimum salary (either for a rookie or a one-year veteran, depending on the player's experience) from the player's new salary.
  • Reduction of obligation: If the result of the calculation is positive, the original team can reduce their liability to the player (both the remaining salary owed and the cap hit) by half of that positive amount. This means the original team will pay less and the amount counting against their salary cap will be reduced.

Important notes about the NBA right of offset:
  • Double-dipping: The purpose of the right of offset is to prevent players from "double-dipping" – collecting the full guaranteed money from two or more teams simultaneously.
  • Limited Financial Impact: While the right of offset benefits the waiving team, the financial impact is often limited, as demonstrated by moorebasketball.com.
  • Waiver of right: Teams and players can agree to waive or modify the right of offset as part of a buyout agreement, allowing the player to keep the full buyout amount in addition to their new salary.
  • Applicability: The right of offset applies even if the player signs with a professional team outside of the NBA.

Essentially, the right of offset helps teams regain some financial flexibility after waiving a player by reducing the dead money on their books if the player continues their professional basketball career elsewhere.
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Re: The Official 2025 Offseason Thread #4 Free Agency Opens! 

Post#1296 » by bigfoot » Tue Jul 15, 2025 2:14 am

So if understand the offset properly and Beal gets $5.3M from the clips. The one year vet min is $2M. Subtracted from $5.3M is $3.3M. The Suns payment to Beal and the cap hit get reduced by half of that or $1.65M.

Not a big deal this year. But next year, if Beal signs for more, the same rule applies. Say he gets $12M from a team. Minus the one year vet min is $10M. The Suns have to pay $5M less and get a $5M cap reduction.

Again put in place to reduce massive double dipping.
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Re: The Official 2025 Offseason Thread #4 Free Agency Opens! 

Post#1297 » by dremill24 » Tue Jul 15, 2025 3:04 am

bigfoot wrote:So if understand the offset properly and Beal gets $5.3M from the clips. The one year vet min is $2M. Subtracted from $5.3M is $3.3M. The Suns payment to Beal and the cap hit get reduced by half of that or $1.65M.

Not a big deal this year. But next year, if Beal signs for more, the same rule applies. Say he gets $12M from a team. Minus the one year vet min is $10M. The Suns have to pay $5M less and get a $5M cap reduction.

Again put in place to reduce massive double dipping.


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Re: The Official 2025 Offseason Thread #4 Free Agency Opens! 

Post#1298 » by lilfishi22 » Tue Jul 15, 2025 3:41 am

dremill24 wrote:
bigfoot wrote:So if understand the offset properly and Beal gets $5.3M from the clips. The one year vet min is $2M. Subtracted from $5.3M is $3.3M. The Suns payment to Beal and the cap hit get reduced by half of that or $1.65M.

Not a big deal this year. But next year, if Beal signs for more, the same rule applies. Say he gets $12M from a team. Minus the one year vet min is $10M. The Suns have to pay $5M less and get a $5M cap reduction.

Again put in place to reduce massive double dipping.


Looks like you might be missing the last step

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Re: The Official 2025 Offseason Thread #4 Free Agency Opens! 

Post#1299 » by bigfoot » Tue Jul 15, 2025 4:12 am

lilfishi22 wrote:
dremill24 wrote:
bigfoot wrote:So if understand the offset properly and Beal gets $5.3M from the clips. The one year vet min is $2M. Subtracted from $5.3M is $3.3M. The Suns payment to Beal and the cap hit get reduced by half of that or $1.65M.

Not a big deal this year. But next year, if Beal signs for more, the same rule applies. Say he gets $12M from a team. Minus the one year vet min is $10M. The Suns have to pay $5M less and get a $5M cap reduction.

Again put in place to reduce massive double dipping.


Looks like you might be missing the last step

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Kind of not much but hey every dollar counts I guess


Okay, we are talking about $660k for a LA Clips 1 year contract over five years. So let's say Beal gets a 4-year MLE offer the following year. That would be close to $60M. So 50% of $58M is $29M over four years which would be $7.25M off the cap in the last four years of the five year stretch. Combined with the $660k and it's almost $8M. So it would be a $11M cap hit instead of $19M. Likelihood of a full MLE seems like a long shot but you never know.
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Re: The Official 2025 Offseason Thread #4 Free Agency Opens! 

Post#1300 » by lilfishi22 » Tue Jul 15, 2025 5:40 am

bigfoot wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:
dremill24 wrote:
Looks like you might be missing the last step

Read on Twitter
?t=yjBzz3csr7eJfTZLuo0PFQ&s=19

Kind of not much but hey every dollar counts I guess


Okay, we are talking about $660k for a LA Clips 1 year contract over five years. So let's say Beal gets a 4-year MLE offer the following year. That would be close to $60M. So 50% of $58M is $29M over four years which would be $7.25M off the cap in the last four years of the five year stretch. Combined with the $660k and it's almost $8M. So it would be a $11M cap hit instead of $19M. Likelihood of a full MLE seems like a long shot but you never know.

Let's hope Beal plays out of his mind and earns himself a max contract then!

Let's go Team Beal!

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