The Charlotte/Gafford with RJB to Dallas

[jayjaysee]

And you decide who gets the seconds between Dallas and Toronto. Assume Toronto fans say Toronto and Dallas fans say no either way?

Toronto: Barrett
Toronto: Thompson, Connaughton

Toronto gets under the tax (once they trim the roster down to 15 bodies) and trims 10ish million off next season? Spotrac says they have a few UNG contracts to choose from but could dump a vet min here if it’s off?

Dallas: Thompson, Gafford, Powell
Dallas: RJ Barrett and Diabate

Dallas gets an okay and cheap backup center and some scoring. And gets far enough under the second apron to sign Exum and give our Nembhard a roster spot..

Charlotte: Connaughton, Diabate, 3-4 seconds
Charlotte: Gafford and Powell (and Dallas cash?)

Charlotte gets the center upgrade they really need unless they are just tanking this season?

[Godaddycurse]

Not interested in turning Barrett into Thompson + Pat C, regardless of # of seconds. Too redundant with our SGs on the bench. I would consider but am not in love with the following if salary dump is what we're after:

Charlotte out: Okogie, connaughton, Diabates, 2 seconds
Charlotte in: Thompson, Gafford

Dallas out: Thompson, Gafford, powell
Dallas in: Diabates, RJB

Toronto out: RJB
Toronto in: okogie, Pat C, Powell, 2 seconds

I started off with this but decided it was better without Toronto/with sacramento instead

[jayjaysee]

Not interested in turning Barrett into Thompson + Pat C, regardless of # of seconds. I would consider but am not in love with the following:

Charlotte out: Okogie, connaughton, Diabates, 2 seconds
Charlotte in: Thompson, Gafford

Dallas out: Thompson, Gafford, powell
Dallas in: Diabates, RJB

Toronto out: RJB
Toronto in: okogie, Pat C, Powell, 2 seconds

I started off with this but decided it was better without Toronto/with sacramento instead

Will probably never know (because Dallas is not making any trades) but I think Gafford’s value just cancels out Klay mostly?

So don’t see any seconds. Though Toronto getting off of RJ’s second year is the value.

[Godaddycurse]

Not interested in turning Barrett into Thompson + Pat C, regardless of # of seconds. I would consider but am not in love with the following:

Charlotte out: Okogie, connaughton, Diabates, 2 seconds
Charlotte in: Thompson, Gafford

Dallas out: Thompson, Gafford, powell
Dallas in: Diabates, RJB

Toronto out: RJB
Toronto in: okogie, Pat C, Powell, 2 seconds

I started off with this but decided it was better without Toronto/with sacramento instead

Will probably never know (because Dallas is not making any trades) but I think Gafford’s value just cancels out Klay mostly?

So don’t see any seconds. Though Toronto getting off of RJ’s second year is the value.

Dont think Raptors would make the team significantly worse w/ dead expirings just to get off RJs second year when team is commited to winning this year. I think if they really want to duck the tax a smaller Agbaji trade is more likely unless Agbaji signs a team friendly extension.

[daoneandonly]

Not interested in turning Barrett into Thompson + Pat C, regardless of # of seconds. I would consider but am not in love with the following:

Charlotte out: Okogie, connaughton, Diabates, 2 seconds
Charlotte in: Thompson, Gafford

Dallas out: Thompson, Gafford, powell
Dallas in: Diabates, RJB

Toronto out: RJB
Toronto in: okogie, Pat C, Powell, 2 seconds

I started off with this but decided it was better without Toronto/with sacramento instead

Will probably never know (because Dallas is not making any trades) but I think Gafford’s value just cancels out Klay mostly?

So don’t see any seconds. Though Toronto getting off of RJ’s second year is the value.

If Dallas is giving up Gafford while taking on RJ, yes getting rid of Klay is wonderful, but it should be Hardy instead of Powell.

I'd prefer the one godad posted with Sac where Dallas gets Monk, but only if Klay goes out in another deal for a backup 5. COuld they convince Utah that Ace needs a mentor like Klay and trade him for Nurk? Doubtful, but if Monk is coming in, Klay should go out somehow. If not, then the RJ deal is fine with Hardy.

RJ isnt worth 3 expirings and some seconds; his contract is bad.

[oldncreaky]

I wouldn't do this trade. If TOR wants to duck under the tax, they should wait until the TDL to shave that $1M or so off their cap sheet, and do it in whatever way is cheapest.

I do think TOR's roster can be rebalanced and better positioned if they move one of BI/IQ/RJB. However, the last thing I want to do is use up assets to do so. I'm probably most in favour of moving whoever the Raptors can get the most value from, and my guess is that means BI at the TDL

But mostly I apparently just have a very different valuation of Barrett, and put him in the same tier of Canadian players as Brooks/Dort/Nembhard/Wiggins and maybe NAW/Mathurin/Sharpe -- useful starters with flaws in their game. If I was choosing from this group for a game of pick-up ball, I'd probably take Nembhard first, then either Dort or Barrett.

[daoneandonly]

I wouldn't do this trade. If TOR wants to duck under the tax, they should wait until the TDL to shave that $1M or so off their cap sheet, and do it in whatever way is cheapest.

I do think TOR's roster can be rebalanced and better positioned if they move one of BI/IQ/RJB. However, the last thing I want to do is use up assets to do so. I'm probably most in favour of moving whoever the Raptors can get the most value from, and my guess is that means BI at the TDL

But mostly I apparently just have a very different valuation of Barrett, and put him in the same tier of Canadian players as Brooks/Dort/Nembhard/Wiggins and maybe NAW/Mathurin/Sharpe -- useful starters with flaws in their game. If I was choosing from this group for a game of pick-up ball, I'd probably take Nembhard first, then either Dort or Barrett.

Interesting, because I'd take RBJ last from that list of Canadian guys, well between him and Sharpe.

[jayjaysee]

I don’t understand why the Canadian part matters at all. Just seems a weird qualifier to me for a bunch of wings. Some play the same style and are comparable and some do not..

But in general?

RJ is overpaid. The other Canadians are not.

RJ is not a good fit on the team he is on. All of the other Canadians are good fits (or they’re prospects that could develop into good fits)

[oldncreaky]

I wouldn't do this trade. If TOR wants to duck under the tax, they should wait until the TDL to shave that $1M or so off their cap sheet, and do it in whatever way is cheapest.

I do think TOR's roster can be rebalanced and better positioned if they move one of BI/IQ/RJB. However, the last thing I want to do is use up assets to do so. I'm probably most in favour of moving whoever the Raptors can get the most value from, and my guess is that means BI at the TDL

But mostly I apparently just have a very different valuation of Barrett, and put him in the same tier of Canadian players as Brooks/Dort/Nembhard/Wiggins and maybe NAW/Mathurin/Sharpe -- useful starters with flaws in their game. If I was choosing from this group for a game of pick-up ball, I'd probably take Nembhard first, then either Dort or Barrett.

Interesting, because I'd take RBJ last from that list of Canadian guys, well between him and Sharpe.

IMO there's just way too much noise in Barrett's NBA numbers in TOR.

You can't glean much information when he's playing next to GLeaguers, a bunch of rookies, or slotted in as a PF. That lack of information goes both ways: some of the rookies and UFAs Toronto played last year looked promising, but I assume absolutely nothing about those youngsters given the line-up chaos and a bunch of them being assigned way bigger roles than appropriate. (I've seen way too many examples of guys who look like good bench pieces when they start, but look like scrubs coming off the bench).

In 2023 and 2024, Canada's National team had training camps, warm up games, and actual games in the World Cup and Olympics. Kind of like a grand game of pick-up ball. Most of these Canadian guys were available to play. RJ always started. RJ always closed in any close game. Jordi Fernandez, coach of the Nets, made the decisions. And yes, guys were benched if they didn't perform, notably Murray and Olynyk, so it very much appears the decisions were made on merit by the coaches of a team scrambling to medal for the first time in decades.

I put about as much weight on those couple dozen games as I do the small sample sizes from a TOR team that started with injuries, and then pivoted to tanking and starting GLeaguers after the TDL.

[oldncreaky]

I don’t understand why the Canadian part matters at all.

TC said that in a game of pick up, RJ would be picked last, or close to last

But we've got some evidence of what actually happens when RJ is competing in a situation like a pickup game

Tournaments of Canada's National team, when they are trying to medal for the first time in decades, is very much like a series of pick up games: a couple dozen guys get invited to camp; the best 12 make the roster; the best 5 start; anyone who doesn't contribute to winning get's benched or their role reduced. In that environment, with a half-dozen other starter-level wings in the NBA competing hard, RJ Barrett started and ended every game possible.

The same logic could be applied to almost any country with a dozen+ NBA players. Examples: It was pretty clear (at least to me) that Yabusele from France had improved to NBA-level by the 2024 Olympics; it's pretty clear that in a game of pick-up of the USA players, neither Haliburton or Tatum were considered as part of the best 5 in 2024.

You clearly disparage Barrett. I think he's an average NBA starter, paid an average salary for a starter, on a team with an unbalanced roster with too many guys at his position. Whatever. Please let it go and drop the condescending snark.

[Texas Chuck]

I don’t understand why the Canadian part matters at all.

TC said that in a game of pick up, RJ would be picked last, or close to last

But we've got some evidence of what actually happens when RJ is competing in a situation like a pickup game

Tournaments of Canada's National team, when they are trying to medal for the first time in decades, is very much like a series of pick up games: a couple dozen guys get invited to camp; the best 12 make the roster; the best 5 start; anyone who doesn't contribute to winning get's benched or their role reduced. In that environment, with a half-dozen other starter-level wings in the NBA competing hard, RJ Barrett started and ended every game possible.

The same logic could be applied to almost any country with a dozen+ NBA players. Examples: It was pretty clear (at least to me) that Yabusele from France had improved to NBA-level by the 2024 Olympics; it's pretty clear that in a game of pick-up of the USA players, neither Haliburton or Tatum were considered as part of the best 5 in 2024.

You clearly disparage Barrett. I think he's an average NBA starter, paid an average salary for a starter, on a team with an unbalanced roster with too many guys at his position. Whatever. Please let it go and drop the condescending snark.

Please don't misrepresent my post like that. I said nothing about which of the Canadian national team guys would be picked last in a pickup game.

And people not loving RJ Barrett as much as you isn't condescending snark. jayjaysee simply doesn't understand the relevance of the Canadian national team. You do, which is fine. But its okay if he doesn't because we have seen lots of players be great players in FIBA and not great players in the NBA. Its okay for jay to weight that less than you, no?

[jayjaysee]

I don’t understand why the Canadian part matters at all.

TC said that in a game of pick up, RJ would be picked last, or close to last

But we've got some evidence of what actually happens when RJ is competing in a situation like a pickup game

Tournaments of Canada's National team, when they are trying to medal for the first time in decades, is very much like a series of pick up games: a couple dozen guys get invited to camp; the best 12 make the roster; the best 5 start; anyone who doesn't contribute to winning get's benched or their role reduced. In that environment, with a half-dozen other starter-level wings in the NBA competing hard, RJ Barrett started and ended every game possible.

The same logic could be applied to almost any country with a dozen+ NBA players. Examples: It was pretty clear (at least to me) that Yabusele from France had improved to NBA-level by the 2024 Olympics; it's pretty clear that in a game of pick-up of the USA players, neither Haliburton or Tatum were considered as part of the best 5 in 2024.

You clearly disparage Barrett. I think he's an average NBA starter, paid an average salary for a starter, on a team with an unbalanced roster with too many guys at his position. Whatever. Please let it go and drop the condescending snark.

I don’t know about pick up ball or pick up ball comments, so if that’s all that was about, I guess that’s my bad for responding to it.

And I do think there’s some use to RJ obviously as my OP has my team getting him and offering the pick value to go to Toronto..

Just his valuation to me has little to do with his play strictly in toronto (and nothing to do with canada).. he played with Brunson and Randle and should’ve looked good..

we’ve seen him play with talent before and on tanking rosters. It’s mostly been the same RJ Barrett.. Which is a guy that can score at some level. But he is paid like he can score at a higher level or play defense at a higher level than he does. So I think a neutral-ish package should be expected…

[oldncreaky]

And all of us who play pickup games understand this. There is always that one guy who on pure talent is the best player there, except nobody wants to ever be on his team because they know his game is detrimental to winning. So you pick the far less talented guy who plays to his strengths so you can stay on the court.

So I guess I misinterpreted . . . sure

[Texas Chuck]

And all of us who play pickup games understand this. There is always that one guy who on pure talent is the best player there, except nobody wants to ever be on his team because they know his game is detrimental to winning. So you pick the far less talented guy who plays to his strengths so you can stay on the court.

So I guess I misinterpreted . . . sure

You did. This was a specific response to RJ versus Grayson Allen. Where I said Allen would be picked in front of him. At no point did I go through the Canadian national team and decide who would be picked last. Nor is that the same as pickup at all.

But pickup games have even less relevance than national team games so I wish I had never posted that which somehow derailed a totally different thread now lol. So thats my bad.

[MasterIchiro]

Not interested in trading Diabaté whatsoever from Charlotte's perspective. His upside is significant - still young - excellent athlete - guards 1-5 - costs 2.2 million per on a multiyear deal.

[oldncreaky]

I don’t understand why the Canadian part matters at all.

TC said that in a game of pick up, RJ would be picked last, or close to last

But we've got some evidence of what actually happens when RJ is competing in a situation like a pickup game

Tournaments of Canada's National team, when they are trying to medal for the first time in decades, is very much like a series of pick up games: a couple dozen guys get invited to camp; the best 12 make the roster; the best 5 start; anyone who doesn't contribute to winning get's benched or their role reduced. In that environment, with a half-dozen other starter-level wings in the NBA competing hard, RJ Barrett started and ended every game possible.

The same logic could be applied to almost any country with a dozen+ NBA players. Examples: It was pretty clear (at least to me) that Yabusele from France had improved to NBA-level by the 2024 Olympics; it's pretty clear that in a game of pick-up of the USA players, neither Haliburton or Tatum were considered as part of the best 5 in 2024.

You clearly disparage Barrett. I think he's an average NBA starter, paid an average salary for a starter, on a team with an unbalanced roster with too many guys at his position. Whatever. Please let it go and drop the condescending snark.

I don’t know about pick up ball or pick up ball comments, so if that’s all that was about, I guess that’s my bad for responding to it.

And I do think there’s some use to RJ obviously as my OP has my team getting him and offering the pick value to go to Toronto..

Just his valuation to me has little to do with his play strictly in toronto (and nothing to do with canada).. he played with Brunson and Randle and should’ve looked good..

we’ve seen him play with talent before and on tanking rosters. It’s mostly been the same RJ Barrett.. Which is a guy that can score at some level. But he is paid like he can score at a higher level or play defense at a higher level than he does. So I think a neutral-ish package should be expected…

Fair enough. I have no doubt that his return in trade would be weak -- but I'm generally opposed to moving assets when perceptions are low, so to me that's an argument to wait because if Barrett is negative now, he'll be less nagative next season as an expiring. I'd much, much rather flip BI who should be worth at least the late FRP he cost to acquire; I'd also prefer to move IQ, except that TOR's PG rotation is iffy at best with IQ, and much, much worse without him

But here's the thing: evaluating RJ Barrett on his Toronto numbers from his 90 games there, when the team has been tanking and the roster an injury-filled mess, makes about as much sense as evaluating Lauri Markkhanen from his last 2 seasons on Utah. Too much noise in both cases. And going back to RJ's age 21 or 22 years in NY makes even less sense. His experience on his national team seems just as relevant to me, but of course, I'll respect that you disagree.

[daoneandonly]

While I don't think RJ is good, I still say Dallas should do a deal centered around Klay/Hardy and Tor's pick of Martin or Naji. Nothing more, nothing less

[Godaddycurse]

While I don't think RJ is good, I still say Dallas should do a deal centered around Klay/Hardy and Tor's pick of Martin or Naji. Nothing more, nothing less

Dallas should do that, Toronto shouldnt

[daoneandonly]

While I don't think RJ is good, I still say Dallas should do a deal centered around Klay/Hardy and Tor's pick of Martin or Naji. Nothing more, nothing less

Dallas should do that, Toronto shouldnt

Probably not, but that's his value give or take

[Godaddycurse]

While I don't think RJ is good, I still say Dallas should do a deal centered around Klay/Hardy and Tor's pick of Martin or Naji. Nothing more, nothing less

Dallas should do that, Toronto shouldnt

Probably not, but that's his value give or take

Nah your package is worse