2025 Summer League

[BlacJacMac]

As for TJ, if he doesn't solve his turnover issues, he hurts us as much as he helps. He has incredible physical talent so hopefully he figures it out.

I'm not worried. We're clearly using his SL as a way to see what else he's capable of. I doubt the plan is to make him a primary ballhandler/playmaker like he's being used.

But by forcing those reps in games that don't matter, we're likely figuring out what he can, and can't, do as a secondary playmaker.

[minimus]

On Clark, I think it's worth distinguishing the difference between playing poorly and shooting poorly. Clark did the thing he's good at in these games playing great defense (other than one bad drive allowed that I saw), but his 3s didn't go in like we'd want overall. Looking closer though, it' really just the 0-5 game from 3 that was bad. This last one vs. Detroit had him 2-6 with one of the misses being an end of clock grenade thrown to him...so 2-5 (40%). He was 2-6 in game 2. No matter how good a shooter, there is going to be variance from 3 in small samples.

Clark's offensive game is limited. He really does look like a true 3 and D player at this point so the 3 pt shooting is critical, but that still doesn't make him immune from variance. He could be a 40% 3 pt shooter and have 3 game stretches where he shoots 25%. His shooting form looks consistent and he has good shot preparation. I'm not ready to say he's unplayable because he shot poorly in a small sample for the same reason I wasn't ready to say he was a good shooter because he made 3s last season in limited action. The jury is still out.

Can't agree more. Last season Clark was the best MIN at making timely backdoor cuts, he was setting off ball screens, moving the ball. He is a system player and he will be fine, as long as offensive system works.

[dschroeder01]

On Clark, I think it's worth distinguishing the difference between playing poorly and shooting poorly. Clark did the thing he's good at in these games playing great defense (other than one bad drive allowed that I saw), but his 3s didn't go in like we'd want overall. Looking closer though, it' really just the 0-5 game from 3 that was bad. This last one vs. Detroit had him 2-6 with one of the misses being an end of clock grenade thrown to him...so 2-5 (40%). He was 2-6 in game 2. No matter how good a shooter, there is going to be variance from 3 in small samples.

Clark's offensive game is limited. He really does look like a true 3 and D player at this point so the 3 pt shooting is critical, but that still doesn't make him immune from variance. He could be a 40% 3 pt shooter and have 3 game stretches where he shoots 25%. His shooting form looks consistent and he has good shot preparation. I'm not ready to say he's unplayable because he shot poorly in a small sample for the same reason I wasn't ready to say he was a good shooter because he made 3s last season in limited action. The jury is still out.

No rebounds, bad defense, and 6 points on 7 shots. This is SL, not the NBA. Players who don’t stand out here, don’t tend to be rotation worthy on contenders there.

Even if I agree with you that his defense has been poor you're trusting the 79 minutes he's played in SL this year over the 522 he played in the NBA for a contender last year? Not sure how a lesser sample in the weirdness of SL is more prognostic than the real thing. The contrast highlights the point that maybe we shouldn't read everything into SL games where players are asked to do different things than they already do well. Maybe small sample shooting shouldn't be used to make sweeping statements.

[winforlose]

On Clark, I think it's worth distinguishing the difference between playing poorly and shooting poorly. Clark did the thing he's good at in these games playing great defense (other than one bad drive allowed that I saw), but his 3s didn't go in like we'd want overall. Looking closer though, it' really just the 0-5 game from 3 that was bad. This last one vs. Detroit had him 2-6 with one of the misses being an end of clock grenade thrown to him...so 2-5 (40%). He was 2-6 in game 2. No matter how good a shooter, there is going to be variance from 3 in small samples.

Clark's offensive game is limited. He really does look like a true 3 and D player at this point so the 3 pt shooting is critical, but that still doesn't make him immune from variance. He could be a 40% 3 pt shooter and have 3 game stretches where he shoots 25%. His shooting form looks consistent and he has good shot preparation. I'm not ready to say he's unplayable because he shot poorly in a small sample for the same reason I wasn't ready to say he was a good shooter because he made 3s last season in limited action. The jury is still out.

No rebounds, bad defense, and 6 points on 7 shots. This is SL, not the NBA. Players who don’t stand out here, don’t tend to be rotation worthy on contenders there.

Even if I agree with you that his defense has been poor you're trusting the 79 minutes he's played in SL this year over the 522 he played in the NBA for a contender last year? Not sure how a lesser sample in the weirdness of SL is more prognostic than the real thing. The contrast highlights the point that maybe we shouldn't read everything into SL games where players are asked to do different things than they already do well. Maybe small sample shooting shouldn't be used to make sweeping statements.

Clark was not that impressive in the 522 last year. His shot was falling early, which was nice. But, then it abandoned him by the end of the season. Without offense Clark is an Okogie variant. I do think he might find some niche minutes, but that doesn’t mean he is rotation worthy.

SL is a first impression, nothing more. But I think we can agree, Clark has made a bad first impression this season. He will get another chance during preseason, and he will eventually see the floor via foul trouble or injury minutes, but that isn’t the same as being rotation worthy or in the rotation day 1. We will see what happens as time passes.

[Devilzsidewalk]

Miller is the worst player on the floor right now: black hole in offense and cone in defense.

From watching the game Miller doesn't stand out as being all that bad. His defense has been fine, he's leading the team in rebounds, and he should have a few assists as well (if anyone could hit an open 3).

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Watch closely first three DET possessions: you can see all sort of defensive mistakes from Miller missed rotations, poor executed closeout. It resulted in 7 points from DET. Sure, it not completely his fault, but compare with Joan effort, who is giving it all on the floor.

the 2nd one I'd hang on Miller, but the other 2 look like team miscommunication - guys aren't on board with where to switch. Probably more Beringer than Miller. Like on the first one, Beringer should clearly have that switch, but when he's catching the ball, Beringer isn't even moving. Miller sees it and is scrambling off his man to try and get a contest, and then Beringer realizes and starts going too, but it's all broken down by that point, easy blowby.

[BlacJacMac]

Clark was not that impressive in the 522 last year. His shot was falling early, which was nice. But, then it abandoned him by the end of the season.

That did not happen. His final 5 games of March he went 5-8. He just didn't play much in April - and only attempted a single 3 over the 7 games. So he finished the regular season hitting 5 of his last 9.

JAN: 1-3, 33% (6 MPG)
FEB: 13-30: 43% (20 MPG)
MAR: 8-17: 47% (12 MPG)
APR: 0-1, 0% (7 MPG - and 17 of his 48 minutes came in 1 game)

[dschroeder01]

Clark was not that impressive in the 522 last year. His shot was falling early, which was nice. But, then it abandoned him by the end of the season.

What are you basing this on? In March, Clark had a TS% of nearly 70%. In April, the Wolves were back to full strength and he was out of the rotation , only playing garbage time, and shooting only 7 times. When did his shooting abandon him?

Without offense Clark is an Okogie variant. I do think he might find some niche minutes, but that doesn’t mean he is rotation worthy.

Agreed that Clark has to be able to play offense which he did last season in while part of an NBA rotation.

SL is a first impression, nothing more. But I think we can agree, Clark has made a bad first impression this season. He will get another chance during preseason, and he will eventually see the floor via foul trouble or injury minutes, but that isn’t the same as being rotation worthy or in the rotation day 1. We will see what happens as time passes.

You can call it that. It's more data, but the context matters. Clark is a guy that plays a role in a defined role in an offense and SL is not structured to highlight that kind of play. Clark wasn't good in SL last year either and then performed well in season when there's more structure and he's filling a specific role.

My point in this was to call out that shooting poorly isn't the same as playing poorly. To me, Clark looks to be playing the same way he did last year for the big club. It's just that his shot hasn't gone in for 2 of the games. Your first impression seems to be weighting more to his shot not going in. I guess we'll see. I disagree that his defense hasn't been good.

[Slim Tubby]

As for TJ, if he doesn't solve his turnover issues, he hurts us as much as he helps. He has incredible physical talent so hopefully he figures it out.

I'm not worried. We're clearly using his SL as a way to see what else he's capable of. I doubt the plan is to make him a primary ballhandler/playmaker like he's being used.

But by forcing those reps in games that don't matter, we're likely figuring out what he can, and can't, do as a secondary playmaker.

Certainly a fair take, BJM.

I think my concerns about TJ are less about him as a player and more about Finch's low tolerance and quick hook for mistakes made by guys coming off the bench.

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[Devilzsidewalk]

As for TJ, if he doesn't solve his turnover issues, he hurts us as much as he helps. He has incredible physical talent so hopefully he figures it out.

I'm not worried. We're clearly using his SL as a way to see what else he's capable of. I doubt the plan is to make him a primary ballhandler/playmaker like he's being used.

But by forcing those reps in games that don't matter, we're likely figuring out what he can, and can't, do as a secondary playmaker.

Yea they are probably testing out what he might have as a primary on-ball creator, which we'd love to have for when Ant sits. But his RS role will be a lot of sitting on the wing and catch passes from Ant or Julius, and now he's in his bag - if the closeout isn't on balance, blow by. Otherwise launch 3s. And then anytime in transition, the guys are gonna be looking for him because the only speed he knows in transition is pedal to the metal.

I think he's gonna be great. That NoCeilings video really highlighted how he's lowkey capable of making some pretty advanced reads. With him exploding downhill from the wing, teams just aren't gonna be able to rotate fast enough. The decision tree between defending the drive/the oop/the corner 3 is gonna have holes in it all the time.

[minimus]

the 2nd one I'd hang on Miller, but the other 2 look like team miscommunication - guys aren't on board with where to switch. Probably more Beringer than Miller. Like on the first one, Beringer should clearly have that switch, but when he's catching the ball, Beringer isn't even moving. Miller sees it and is scrambling off his man to try and get a contest, and then Beringer realizes and starts going too, but it's all broken down by that point, easy blowby.

I don’t think it should have been Joan hedging at the level there. It doesn’t make much sense in Summer League, and from what I’ve seen, MIN seems to want to keep Joan in a soft drop or have him fully switch when guarding 1-on-1 on the perimeter — basically mimicking Rudy’s role in the base defense.

I’d also point out Rob struggled to defend on all three of those possessions, which created an additional layer of chaos. That made it almost impossible for Joan to fix the defense: there was no point-of-attack defense, and no help rotation.

Then on the fourth possession, Miller loses a shooter who hits an open mid-range shot. That means there were four straight lost possessions at the start of the game where Miller was directly involved.

Maybe it’s not entirely his fault, but after two full seasons of development, it’s pretty disappointing that he still can’t figure it out — even at the Summer League level.

[KGdaBom]

The Wolves are an 8.5 point favorite for todays game. I'm taking the over. The over under is 182. I'm taking the under.

[winforlose]

Clark was not that impressive in the 522 last year. His shot was falling early, which was nice. But, then it abandoned him by the end of the season.

That did not happen. His final 5 games of March he went 5-8. He just didn't play much in April - and only attempted a single 3 over the 7 games. So he finished the regular season hitting 5 of his last 9.

JAN: 1-3, 33% (6 MPG)
FEB: 13-30: 43% (20 MPG)
MAR: 8-17: 47% (12 MPG)
APR: 0-1, 0% (7 MPG - and 17 of his 48 minutes came in 1 game)

I wasn’t just talking about 3s, I was talking about from the field as well. https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/clarkja02/gamelog/2025/

If he was playing too well to bench he would not have been benched. Finch obviously saw enough flaws to determine he would not be a rotational player in the playoffs, which is why he only played in 5 games and for short stints.

[BlacJacMac]

Clark was not that impressive in the 522 last year. His shot was falling early, which was nice. But, then it abandoned him by the end of the season.

That did not happen. His final 5 games of March he went 5-8. He just didn't play much in April - and only attempted a single 3 over the 7 games. So he finished the regular season hitting 5 of his last 9.

JAN: 1-3, 33% (6 MPG)
FEB: 13-30: 43% (20 MPG)
MAR: 8-17: 47% (12 MPG)
APR: 0-1, 0% (7 MPG - and 17 of his 48 minutes came in 1 game)

I wasn’t just talking about 3s, I was talking about from the field as well. https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/clarkja02/gamelog/2025/

If he was playing too well to bench he would not have been benched. Finch obviously saw enough flaws to determine he would not be a rotational player in the playoffs, which is why he only played in 5 games and for short stints.

You're really going to tell me that a 7 total FGAs over 7 games, where he barely played, is enough of a sample to tell us anything?

Its clear that he was "benched" because the rest of the team was healthy and he was our 4th or 5th Shooting Guard.

[BlacJacMac]

I'm totally fine with this. He has nothing left to prove.

Read on Twitter

[winforlose]

That did not happen. His final 5 games of March he went 5-8. He just didn't play much in April - and only attempted a single 3 over the 7 games. So he finished the regular season hitting 5 of his last 9.

JAN: 1-3, 33% (6 MPG)
FEB: 13-30: 43% (20 MPG)
MAR: 8-17: 47% (12 MPG)
APR: 0-1, 0% (7 MPG - and 17 of his 48 minutes came in 1 game)

I wasn’t just talking about 3s, I was talking about from the field as well. https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/clarkja02/gamelog/2025/

If he was playing too well to bench he would not have been benched. Finch obviously saw enough flaws to determine he would not be a rotational player in the playoffs, which is why he only played in 5 games and for short stints.

You're really going to tell me that a 7 total FGAs over 7 games, where he barely played, is enough of a sample to tell us anything?

Its clear that he was "benched" because the rest of the team was healthy and he was our 4th or 5th Shooting Guard.

I would need to go back through and see each game again, but I remember him fumbling away a couple of fast breaks, and not shooting when he should have. This is the problem with discussing a box score months after the game. His overall offensive confidence seem to take a hit because of the diminished minutes.

I agree his minutes were cut because guys got healthy and outplayed him. That is my point. When you are too good to bench, you don’t get benched. When you are not, then it happens. He also probably performed poorly in practice to further cement his decline.

[winforlose]

I'm totally fine with this. He has nothing left to prove.

Read on Twitter

KGdaBom is the only who will be devastated by this. Our undefeated streak is at SERIOUS risk, and our margin of victory is gonna be tighter if we somehow win.

[BlacJacMac]

I wasn’t just talking about 3s, I was talking about from the field as well. https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/clarkja02/gamelog/2025/

If he was playing too well to bench he would not have been benched. Finch obviously saw enough flaws to determine he would not be a rotational player in the playoffs, which is why he only played in 5 games and for short stints.

You're really going to tell me that a 7 total FGAs over 7 games, where he barely played, is enough of a sample to tell us anything?

Its clear that he was "benched" because the rest of the team was healthy and he was our 4th or 5th Shooting Guard.

I would need to go back through and see each game again, but I remember him fumbling away a couple of fast breaks, and not shooting when he should have. This is the problem with discussing a box score months after the game. His overall offensive confidence seem to take a hit because of the diminished minutes.

I agree his minutes were cut because guys got healthy and outplayed him. That is my point. When you are too good to bench, you don’t get benched. When you are not, then it happens. He also probably performed poorly in practice to further cement his decline.

He played less than 5 minutes in 3 of the 7 games. And it wasn't because of poor play. Finch was setting his Playoff rotation.

In the 1 game he played more than 9 minutes (the 2nd to last game of the season), he scored 7 points (on 1 FGA!) with 5 rebounds, an assist, 0 turnovers and 0 fouls. He was +8.5 in 17 Minutes.

[frankenwolf]

I'd be comfortable going 4-0 and not making a silly summer league playoff. There's nothing to be gained and plenty to lose.

I like winning. So I want us to play two extra games and win the SL title. There are 82 games and however many practices where players can get injured also. Plus preseason games, falling in the shower, getting injured in an auto accident. I'm not going to be worried about injuries in an extra SL game. There's one additional SL game for the teams that don't make the playoff anyway.

You forgot finger pushups.

[winforlose]

You're really going to tell me that a 7 total FGAs over 7 games, where he barely played, is enough of a sample to tell us anything?

Its clear that he was "benched" because the rest of the team was healthy and he was our 4th or 5th Shooting Guard.

I would need to go back through and see each game again, but I remember him fumbling away a couple of fast breaks, and not shooting when he should have. This is the problem with discussing a box score months after the game. His overall offensive confidence seem to take a hit because of the diminished minutes.

I agree his minutes were cut because guys got healthy and outplayed him. That is my point. When you are too good to bench, you don’t get benched. When you are not, then it happens. He also probably performed poorly in practice to further cement his decline.

He played less than 5 minutes in 3 of the 7 games. And it wasn't because of poor play. Finch was setting his Playoff rotation.

In the 1 game he played more than 9 minutes (the 2nd to last game of the season), he scored 7 points (on 1 FGA!) with 5 rebounds, an assist, 0 turnovers and 0 fouls. He was +8.5 in 17 Minutes.

Yes in 17 minutes shooting 7 of 8 from the line. If I remember correctly that was against the tanking Nets and their mostly G league bench.

[minimus]

I'm totally fine with this. He has nothing left to prove.

Well, they dont have a reliable scoring option, unless Rob scores 40pts which is a LOT for SL.

P.S. TJ was limping in the last game...