How justifiable would Harden winning 3 straight MVP’s have been?

[Hook_Em]

From 17-19’? Back to back would’ve been justified but let’s take it a step further. How bout 3x in a row?

17’ finished 2nd to Westbrook
18’ won
19’ finished 2nd behind Giannis

[f4p]

Since winning 3 without a title is basically a no go by historical voting trends, not really justified.

And by the same logic that the voters switched up their logic for 17 and 19 (oh wow stats, I mean, oh wow wins), he could really only get one of those if they were consistent.

It will be funny seeing how high people try to put Shai in the peaks project when 2018 to 2020 harden has very similar regular season stats even over 3 years compared to 1, has slightly better box score stats, shai's numbers actually dropped more in the playoffs, harden has a much better playoff on/off and led at least as dominant a team in 2018 as Shai in 2025, especially in the playoffs where the rockets didn't get taken to 7 by +4 and +2 teams and were possibly a hammy from beating a team about 3 tiers above any team OKC faced while OKC was possibly an Achilles from losing as a +11 favorite.

[One_and_Done]

In this instance not at all.

In 17 the top 2 should have been Kawhi then Lebron.

In 18 he had a case.

In 19 Giannis was the deserving winner.

Harden is underrated by most. Despite his playoff shortcomings, he's a borderline top 20 all-time player, right there in the Wade, Barkley, Dr J, Kobe tier.

[Hook_Em]

Since winning 3 without a title is basically a no go by historical voting trends, not really justified.

And by the same logic that the voters switched up their logic for 17 and 19 (oh wow stats, I mean, oh wow wins), he could really only get one of those if they were consistent.

It will be funny seeing how high people try to put Shai in the peaks project when 2018 to 2020 harden has very similar regular season stats even over 3 years compared to 1, has slightly better box score stats, shai's numbers actually dropped more in the playoffs, harden has a much better playoff on/off and led at least as dominant a team in 2018 as Shai in 2025, especially in the playoffs where the rockets didn't get taken to 7 by +4 and +2 teams and were possibly a hammy from beating a team about 3 tiers above any team OKC faced while OKC was possibly an Achilles from losing as a +11 favorite.

This hypothetical doesn’t factor in postseason results or voter fatigue. It’s just looking back at an alternate history 6 years later.

[70sFan]

I think it would be hard to give him 3 MVPs. 2017 and 2018 are there, but then what? 2019 and 2020 have peak Giannis with the best RS performances of his career and better team results.

It will be funny seeing how high people try to put Shai in the peaks project when 2018 to 2020 harden has very similar regular season stats even over 3 years compared to 1, has slightly better box score stats, shai's numbers actually dropped more in the playoffs, harden has a much better playoff on/off and led at least as dominant a team in 2018 as Shai in 2025, especially in the playoffs where the rockets didn't get taken to 7 by +4 and +2 teams and were possibly a hammy from beating a team about 3 tiers above any team OKC faced while OKC was possibly an Achilles from losing as a +11 favorite.

I think the main reason to put Shai over Harden is that SGA is actually very good defender and you can build GOAT-level defense with him on the court. I struggle to visualise 2018 Harden on the OKC team not hurting their defense.

[Hook_Em]

In this instance not at all.

In 17 the top 2 should have been Kawhi then Lebron.

In 18 he had a case.

In 19 Giannis was the deserving winner.

Harden is underrated by most. Despite his playoff shortcomings, he's a borderline top 20 all-time player, right there in the Wade, Barkley, Dr J, Kobe tier.

Harden was more important to his team than LeBron in 2017. Also played more games.

Agree on Kawhi being top-2 but with Harden.

[DirtyDez]

Harden was posting some stupid stat lines during his peak. Like legitimate Wilt-type eye popping performances and he was not a bad defender anymore by then like he was in the McHale years.

[RCM88x]

In this instance not at all.

In 17 the top 2 should have been Kawhi then Lebron.

In 18 he had a case.

In 19 Giannis was the deserving winner.

Harden is underrated by most. Despite his playoff shortcomings, he's a borderline top 20 all-time player, right there in the Wade, Barkley, Dr J, Kobe tier.

Harden was more important to his team than LeBron in 2017. Also played more games.

Agree on Kawhi being top-2 but with Harden.

I completely disagree with Harden and Kawhi being more valuable than LeBron.

Harden 2017:
81 GP
54-27 record
+7 on court
+3.3 off court

LeBron 2017:
74 GP
51-23 record
+8.4 on court
-8.8 off court (woof)

Kawhi 2017:
74 GP
54-20 record
+8.5 on court
+6.9 off court


Now there was no shot of LeBron winning MVP that year, the Cavs as a team disappointed especially in the second half of the season. They also lost games down the stretch to all of these other teams. Ultimately that is the first qualifier of a players MVP candidacy. Heck even Isaiah Thomas finished ahead of LeBron because his team had a better record. Even though there is absolutely zero argument any of them were more valuable than LeBron was that year, zero.

[Doctor MJ]

From 17-19’? Back to back would’ve been justified but let’s take it a step further. How bout 3x in a row?

17’ finished 2nd to Westbrook
18’ won
19’ finished 2nd behind Giannis

I really don’t see an argument over Giannis for anyone in either of his MVP years.

[falcolombardi]

From 17-19’? Back to back would’ve been justified but let’s take it a step further. How bout 3x in a row?

17’ finished 2nd to Westbrook
18’ won
19’ finished 2nd behind Giannis

I really don’t see an argument over Giannis for anyone in either of his MVP years.

I wouldnt necesarrily vote harden either but you dont see the argument for the guy scoring 40 ppg for a good chunk of the season to win mvp?

50 wins, historic boxscore, is a pretty standard mvp case or near mvp case even if they usually lose to the slightly less flashy stats star in the 60+ win team

[Doctor MJ]

From 17-19’? Back to back would’ve been justified but let’s take it a step further. How bout 3x in a row?

17’ finished 2nd to Westbrook
18’ won
19’ finished 2nd behind Giannis

I really don’t see an argument over Giannis for anyone in either of his MVP years.

I wouldnt necesarrily vote harden either but you dont see the argument for the guy scoring 40 ppg for a good chunk of the season to win mvp?

50 wins, historic boxscore, is a pretty standard mvp case or near mvp case even if they usually lose to the slightly less flashy stats star in the 60+ win team

I'm not saying Harden didn't have an MVP level season in '18-19, just saying, I really didn't have much of a debate in either that season or the next on this accolade personally. As someone who now might be seen as a Giannis skeptic, I was (and am) not skeptical at all about Giannis being the class of those regular seasons.

[Special_Puppy]

I think he was straight up the most deserving candidate from 2018 to 2020 so I’d be fine with him winning 3 straight MVPs in that stretch

[f4p]

I think it would be hard to give him 3 MVPs. 2017 and 2018 are there, but then what? 2019 and 2020 have peak Giannis with the best RS performances of his career and better team results.

It will be funny seeing how high people try to put Shai in the peaks project when 2018 to 2020 harden has very similar regular season stats even over 3 years compared to 1, has slightly better box score stats, shai's numbers actually dropped more in the playoffs, harden has a much better playoff on/off and led at least as dominant a team in 2018 as Shai in 2025, especially in the playoffs where the rockets didn't get taken to 7 by +4 and +2 teams and were possibly a hammy from beating a team about 3 tiers above any team OKC faced while OKC was possibly an Achilles from losing as a +11 favorite.

I think the main reason to put Shai over Harden is that SGA is actually very good defender and you can build GOAT-level defense with him on the court. I struggle to visualise 2018 Harden on the OKC team not hurting their defense.

setting defense aside for a minute, shai can't create like harden. and he just had a -0.2 rTS% for the playoffs and finished on an 8 TO game 6 and 8-27 game 7 so it's not like he just dominated on efficiency to make up for lack of creation. and it's not as if OKC's offensive struggles didn't almost make them lose to inferior teams. so as for defense, shai needs defense to close the creation gap but i'm not sure how much better shai actually is. better, but how much?

harden never played with a murderer's row of defenders like shai. but looking at the 2018-2020 rockets in the playoffs, when they weren't facing maybe the most dangerous offense ever that also didn't try in the regular season (i.e. golden state), the rockets rDRtg's by series were -6.4, -7.6, -11.6, -8.4, +3.1. for an average of -6.3 rDRtg. pretty much elite. and even if we include the warriors, it's -4.5 rDRtg, so still fairly elite.

and that's a 2020 rockets teams that was playing extreme small ball that somehow ended up with a -3.6 rDRtg and a 2019 team that had cp3 looking like crap and that didn't have a bench ending up at an amazing -5.9 rDRtg, with over half their games against the warriors. seriously about that bench in 2019. 2 of them (nene, gerald green) never played in the nba again, 1 of them (shumpert) played 81 more minutes in the nba, and the other was austin rivers. and cp3 was so bad he got traded for russell westbrook and had to throw in 4 picks.

there's no jalen williams or chet holmgren or alex caruso on these squads. and harden didn't keep them from -4.5 to -6 defense.

and just to add, 35 year old harden just played the most minutes for a team that ended up 3rd in defense. they had nice defensive talent and coaching, but certainly not OKC levels of defensive talent and certainly 35 year old harden isn't moving around like 28-30 year old harden.

[tsherkin]

Harden was more important to his team than LeBron in 2017.

Excuse you?

[Hair Jordan]

Not justifiable at all. Sometimes voters fall in love with stats (Harden) or a narrative (Rose) and get swept up in the MVP hype - kinda like Steve Nash almost winning 3 consecutive MVP’s. In retrospect, it looks bad. Harden was an offensive juggernaut but was equally as bad on the defensive end. He deserved to get his lifetime achievement MVP but anything beyond that would have been disgraceful. Only three players in history have won 3 straight MVP’s (Russ, Wilt, Bird). Not Kareem, Moses, Bird, Magic, Jordan, Shaq, Lebron, Curry etc. Harden isn’t within 5 light years of that tier so 3 straight MVP’s would have been laughable.

[jjgp111292]

17 and 18 is far as I'll go. Giannis in 19 and 20 had too good of a case

[Hook_Em]

Harden was more important to his team than LeBron in 2017.

Excuse you?

Maybe you’re thinking of 2018 when Harden had CP3 and LeBron didn’t have Kyrie.

[tsherkin]

Harden was more important to his team than LeBron in 2017.

Excuse you?

Maybe you’re thinking of 2018 when Harden had CP3 and LeBron didn’t have Kyrie.

No, I'm comfortable with what I said. The Cavs wouldn't have been winning much of anything without Lebron, and they certainly wouldn't have been in the Finals without him. The last time Kyrie ran the Cavs without Lebron, they won 33 games. His importance was only so significant to that team.

But I probably could have articulated myself better, I'll give you that one. Low-quality response from me, my bad.

[Dr Positivity]

Difficult to flip either 15 or 19 for Harden, should've beat Russ in 17 though. I think fi he won in 17 people would've talked themselves into him vs Lebron being closer at least in 18. Lebron's supporting cast that year is not much better than Jokic 22.

[Hook_Em]

Excuse you?

Maybe you’re thinking of 2018 when Harden had CP3 and LeBron didn’t have Kyrie.

No, I'm comfortable with what I said. The Cavs wouldn't have been winning much of anything without Lebron, and they certainly wouldn't have been in the Finals without him. The last time Kyrie ran the Cavs without Lebron, they won 33 games. His importance was only so significant to that team.

But I probably could have articulated myself better, I'll give you that one. Low-quality response from me, my bad.

Kyrie averaged 28ppg in b2b finals.. He was a HOF teammate of LeBron that year along with pre-washed Kevin Love and good 3pt shooters. Harden didn’t have anything close to that.