Bears 12.0

[Dresden]

Most of these things are coin flips- some turn out good, some not so good. To label a move "bad" in such an unequivocal way either reflects a lack of understanding of how difficult making personnel decisions is and how much luck is involved, or it shows a lot of arrogance.

Poles has had some alarming misses and misjudged situations wildly.

As have most GM"s. Posters sometimes act like they've never been wrong about anything. If you judge GM's by the standard of doing everything perfectly, every GM falls short.

[Dresden]

My criticisms of Poles are basically twofold:
1. Coach hiring AND extending. The “forced on him via the Trace mafia” argument might work for the hiring, but on the resigning? That seems wholly on Poles. Add in the allowing of the hiring of Getsy and then Waldron……. :puke: absolute travesty, especially for a young franchise QB.
2. Combine 1 with not bolstering the OL for Caleb. And I’m not talking about scrap heap guys (Bates, Shelton, Patrick). Throw in the big signing of Davis with huge red flags. These are all at-the-time forseeable problems for a young QB. And the best asset used last offseason for OL w the injured Amigadije.

Now I will say in my view, he has turned those around this offseason. I love the Johnson signing, and I am somewhere between highly and overly optimistic on the 3 interior OL, and comfortable with Braxton/Ozzy for LT.

The other moves I’d say I lean positive. Mix of good (Sweat trade) and bad (Chase trade), some good picks (Wright, Brisker, Gordon, Tyrique, T. Smith), some bad (Velus, Pickens, 2 punters, Scott).

My biggest concern is the history of building “outside in” particularly with a young QB. The good news IMO is that he seems to have realized that issue and flipped to some degree (I don’t blame him for Loveland at 11 this year given the way the board fell in terms of OL and the depth at DL).

So he's made a few mistakes- which GM hasn't? How about at looking all the positives, too- such as building one of the best young secondaries in the league, have the best set of skill position players on offense in the past 40 years, having what should be a franchise QB for the first time since maybe Jim McMahon, a solid interior to the defensive line, and now, a very solid staring five on the O line. And to top it off, being able to attract one of the most sought after coaching candidates.

Does everyone who thinks Poles is doing such a lousy job think a talent like Ben Johnson would chose to come to the Bears if they were so poorly managed, if their GM was such a buffoon?

[Susan]

Most of these things are coin flips- some turn out good, some not so good. To label a move "bad" in such an unequivocal way either reflects a lack of understanding of how difficult making personnel decisions is and how much luck is involved, or it shows a lot of arrogance.

Poles has had some alarming misses and misjudged situations wildly.

What are Poles biggest mis steps:
1. Flus- I am in the camp that Flus was put on Poles and it’s been made up for with Ben Johnson.
2. Claypool for a 2nd - bad evaluation
3. Signing Nate Davis for $10m. Nate quit after what seemed like a value signing.
4. Sweat?- he is our best D lineman. Who could we have gotten for same money that offseason without giving up a pick?


Anyone who cries over trading 4-7 round picks isn’t living in reality. (Yes 1 season of good starter level production is worth that.)

4th for Keenan- 70 Catches 7TDs. Find that in last years draft after the first 17 WRs are off the board.
5th round for Bates- OLine depth is what you hope for in rds 5-7 and we solidified that for a 5th.
Edmunds is a good LB who came at the request of the coach. His money did not stop us from spending on anyone else.
Not getting enough for Justin is all in your head.

Poles has done decent. Did he earn an extension? If Flus was really his hire and it was Poles doubling down on him last year, then no he did not deserve extension.

If Ben Johnson likes the way Poles works and wants him here as his GM, then Yes.


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The way he's spoken about - you'd think he'd have drafted or acquired a single all-pro or pro-bowler and averaged more than 5 wins a year.

Can't evaluate or develop a QB without an adequate OL - the Steelers played Justin for 6 games after trading a 6th to get him and are now getting a 3rd round pick - so no, it's not in my head. The Steelers screwed the pooch by how they handled it but still got significantly more value than Poles.

His hit rate after the 2nd round is extremely bad, he's had two decent signings in Edwards and Billings, has allowed good talent to walk (Monty, Mooney, Fields, Daniels, Roquan) and has replaced them with expensive and worse replacements (Swift, Rome, Caleb, Davis, Edmunds).

His asset management has been bad outside of the 2023 1st rounder, his talent evaluation has been shoddy (Carter was picked right after Wright, he's a monster. Daniels was heads above Caleb in 2023 & 24. Bowers and Brian Thomas Jr were both absolute game wreckers from the jump.)

[Susan]

My criticisms of Poles are basically twofold:
1. Coach hiring AND extending. The “forced on him via the Trace mafia” argument might work for the hiring, but on the resigning? That seems wholly on Poles. Add in the allowing of the hiring of Getsy and then Waldron……. :puke: absolute travesty, especially for a young franchise QB.
2. Combine 1 with not bolstering the OL for Caleb. And I’m not talking about scrap heap guys (Bates, Shelton, Patrick). Throw in the big signing of Davis with huge red flags. These are all at-the-time forseeable problems for a young QB. And the best asset used last offseason for OL w the injured Amigadije.

Now I will say in my view, he has turned those around this offseason. I love the Johnson signing, and I am somewhere between highly and overly optimistic on the 3 interior OL, and comfortable with Braxton/Ozzy for LT.

The other moves I’d say I lean positive. Mix of good (Sweat trade) and bad (Chase trade), some good picks (Wright, Brisker, Gordon, Tyrique, T. Smith), some bad (Velus, Pickens, 2 punters, Scott).

My biggest concern is the history of building “outside in” particularly with a young QB. The good news IMO is that he seems to have realized that issue and flipped to some degree (I don’t blame him for Loveland at 11 this year given the way the board fell in terms of OL and the depth at DL).

So he's made a few mistakes- which GM hasn't? How about at looking all the positives, too- such as building one of the best young secondaries in the league, have the best set of skill position players on offense in the past 40 years, having what should be a franchise QB for the first time since maybe Jim McMahon, a solid interior to the defensive line, and now, a very solid staring five on the O line. And to top it off, being able to attract one of the most sought after coaching candidates.

Does everyone who thinks Poles is doing such a lousy job think a talent like Ben Johnson would chose to come to the Bears if they were so poorly managed, if their GM was such a buffoon?

Ben Johnson might share in Poles' bad values (building from the outside in).

Just because he was an excellent OC, it does not guarantee he'll be an elite HC. The Lions had a lot fantastic structure that helped make Johnson look excellent that are not currently in place (Elite Culture and excellent OL + a pretty underrated QB).

Everybody has egos - personally I think the way the Jets have emulated the Lions culture is more likely to be a quick turnaround than what the Bears have done. Johnson has to believe that the Lions were excellent in part because of his brilliance - and while that could be partly true, it does not guarantee he'll be brilliant here.

This is the Chicago Bears we are talking about. It's entirely possible that this is a flame out of epic proportions.

[Hold That]

Poles has been one of the best GMs the bears have had in the last 20 years if you’ve followed this team closely.

From managing the cap to accumulating draft assets he’s done a fine job.

The problem is none of it has translated into wins and a lot of that falls on coaching..He finally got his FIRST HIRE of a head coach in Ben Johnson as Flus was already the pick by ownership. Remember the bears position was highly sought after for the first time in YEARS due to the roster make up. For whatever reason people tend to ignore or gloss over the fact that many elite coaches that were available had the bears as their #1 destination choice this summer. I can say in the last 20 years that has NEVER been the case.

That tells you everything you need to know about the job Poles has done. Hopefully for him it translates into wins, but that starts with coaching. We will see if Ben Johnson is who they say he is.

[CROBulls]

Poles biggest mistake was hiring and (later even bigger one was) keeping Matt Eberflus. He double bet on him and both time lost. He lost all credibility for me as GM with just that one move. He had no issue moving assets to aquire Claypool and later moving from Claypool. Yes sometimes you bet, you recognize your mistake and you move on and ship him. That's fine.

But keeping Eberflus after that disaster season and putting entire Bears franchise with another QB rookie playing with coach on hot seat is justifiable firing offense. And given this guy knows history of Bears, he still willingly went with it.

Just as that move, you dont deserve a job as GM anymore. That's a fact.

[fleet]

Poles has been one of the best GMs the bears have had in the last 20 years if you’ve followed this team closely.

From managing the cap to accumulating draft assets he’s done a fine job.

The problem is none of it has translated into wins and a lot of that falls on coaching..He finally got his FIRST HIRE of a head coach in Ben Johnson as Flus was already the pick by ownership. Remember the bears position was highly sought after for the first time in YEARS due to the roster make up. For whatever reason people tend to ignore or gloss over the fact that many elite coaches that were available had the bears as their #1 destination choice this summer. I can say in the last 20 years that has NEVER been the case.

That tells you everything you need to know about the job Poles has done. Hopefully for him it translates into wins, but that starts with coaching. We will see if Ben Johnson is who they say he is.

Hold That, Poles record reflects the job done to this point. The Eberflus support over Quinn, and the double down later instead of just hiring a new coach (BJ?) earlier undermined Poles’ own work badly. Under his watch, hired 2 bad OCs in a row.

Poles has drafted about average. Made a bunch of really unnecessary mistakes that could have brought his overall grade up if not. Most especially given out some very bad contracts in Sweat, Edmunds and Davis. Along with Davis, Chase Claypool as arrogant acquisitions he was warned about, but did it anyway. And we forget his pursuit of Bates and Ogunjobi. Kmet got a deal, and is hardly being used. Swift’s deal was just a bad idea. He’s been basking in a reputation of being good with the cap, but that’s just a function of having a bottom of the barrel roster on the come up with younger replacements.

He got galactic sized luck in getting the Panthers pick to be #1, and it’s questionable if he got the right QB. Threw the QB to the wolves on top. Passed on Jalen Carter right in his lap. Drafted Velus Jones based his failed quarterback’s recommendation. I’m accepting that Ben Johnson sees in Poles a guy he can work with as long as BJ can guide Poles along. A key benefit as a coach in working with a weak GM is to be able to control your own destiny

[fleet]

Poles biggest mistake was hiring and (later even bigger one was) keeping Matt Eberflus. He double bet on him and both time lost. He lost all credibility for me as GM with just that one move. He had no issue moving assets to aquire Claypool and later moving from Claypool. Yes sometimes you bet, you recognize your mistake and you move on and ship him. That's fine.

But keeping Eberflus after that disaster season and putting entire Bears franchise with another QB rookie playing with coach on hot seat is justifiable firing offense. And given this guy knows history of Bears, he still willingly went with it.

Just as that move, you dont deserve a job as GM anymore. That's a fact.

The Bears have to become a national laughingstock to recognize any urgency for change. Happened with the previous regime as well. There’s zero merit accountability in Chicago if you can get out of last season’s debacle with a job, and extension on top. Poles should have been fired based on merit, or minimally put on hold for a season on the hot seat. A new GM could have aligned with Ben Johnson. Even if just elevating Cunningham. At least, they should have held off on the extension. But George McCaskey being who he is, and the continuity loving Kevin Warren did what they did to fail him up.

This was the Bears reverting to form after all the other good work they did this offseason. In a silver lining, it’s possibly a good thing that Ben Johnson will have so much extra power under these circumstances, and the Bears can come out ahead as a result.

[MalagaBulls]

Read on Twitter

[fleet]

CC got lit up on her Caleb/Bears V Jayden/Commanders 2024 take. Booger McFarland was dead solid

Watch on YouTube

[Dresden]

Poles has been one of the best GMs the bears have had in the last 20 years if you’ve followed this team closely.

From managing the cap to accumulating draft assets he’s done a fine job.

The problem is none of it has translated into wins and a lot of that falls on coaching..He finally got his FIRST HIRE of a head coach in Ben Johnson as Flus was already the pick by ownership. Remember the bears position was highly sought after for the first time in YEARS due to the roster make up. For whatever reason people tend to ignore or gloss over the fact that many elite coaches that were available had the bears as their #1 destination choice this summer. I can say in the last 20 years that has NEVER been the case.

That tells you everything you need to know about the job Poles has done. Hopefully for him it translates into wins, but that starts with coaching. We will see if Ben Johnson is who they say he is.

Hold That, Poles record reflects the job done to this point. The Eberflus support over Quinn, and the double down later instead of just hiring a new coach (BJ?) earlier undermined Poles’ own work badly. Under his watch, hired 2 bad OCs in a row.

Poles has drafted about average. Made a bunch of really unnecessary mistakes that could have brought his overall grade up if not. Most especially given out some very bad contracts in Sweat, Edmunds and Davis. Along with Davis, Chase Claypool as arrogant acquisitions he was warned about, but did it anyway. And we forget his pursuit of Bates and Ogunjobi. Kmet got a deal, and is hardly being used. Swift’s deal was just a bad idea. He’s been basking in a reputation of being good with the cap, but that’s just a function of having a bottom of the barrel roster on the come up with younger replacements.

He got galactic sized luck in getting the Panthers pick to be #1, and it’s questionable if he got the right QB. Threw the QB to the wolves on top. Passed on Jalen Carter right in his lap. Drafted Velus Jones based his failed quarterback’s recommendation. I’m accepting that Ben Johnson sees in Poles a guy he can work with as long as BJ can guide Poles along. A key benefit as a coach in working with a weak GM is to be able to control your own destiny

You can't have it both ways. You can't say we need to do a real rebuild, be patient, look at the long term, and then bash the guy because of his record to this point.

[biggestbullsfan]

Read on Twitter

[1985Bear]

For all the Poles bashers: if the Bears have a good season and make playoffs with essentially the same talent, what does that say about your Poles evaluation?

If Bears suck, and the genius Ben Johnson can’t get this group to work right away, does that solidify Poles doom?

What is the measure: 8.5 Wins?

Keep in mind, Ben Johnson’s first year as OC on the juggernaut Lions that we all aspire to mimic was 1-6 to start that year.


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[Peelboy]

My criticisms of Poles are basically twofold:
1. Coach hiring AND extending. The “forced on him via the Trace mafia” argument might work for the hiring, but on the resigning? That seems wholly on Poles. Add in the allowing of the hiring of Getsy and then Waldron……. :puke: absolute travesty, especially for a young franchise QB.
2. Combine 1 with not bolstering the OL for Caleb. And I’m not talking about scrap heap guys (Bates, Shelton, Patrick). Throw in the big signing of Davis with huge red flags. These are all at-the-time forseeable problems for a young QB. And the best asset used last offseason for OL w the injured Amigadije.

Now I will say in my view, he has turned those around this offseason. I love the Johnson signing, and I am somewhere between highly and overly optimistic on the 3 interior OL, and comfortable with Braxton/Ozzy for LT.

The other moves I’d say I lean positive. Mix of good (Sweat trade) and bad (Chase trade), some good picks (Wright, Brisker, Gordon, Tyrique, T. Smith), some bad (Velus, Pickens, 2 punters, Scott).

My biggest concern is the history of building “outside in” particularly with a young QB. The good news IMO is that he seems to have realized that issue and flipped to some degree (I don’t blame him for Loveland at 11 this year given the way the board fell in terms of OL and the depth at DL).

So he's made a few mistakes- which GM hasn't? How about at looking all the positives, too- such as building one of the best young secondaries in the league, have the best set of skill position players on offense in the past 40 years, having what should be a franchise QB for the first time since maybe Jim McMahon, a solid interior to the defensive line, and now, a very solid staring five on the O line. And to top it off, being able to attract one of the most sought after coaching candidates.

Does everyone who thinks Poles is doing such a lousy job think a talent like Ben Johnson would chose to come to the Bears if they were so poorly managed, if their GM was such a buffoon?

My main concern is that he’s made 2 major mistakes (coach and lack of OL focus) which seem to indicate a philosophical approach that I think is not conducive to longterm success. IMO teams should be focusing on OL and DL in EVERY draft. Not to the exclusion of other positions, but once each draft getting a top 3-4 round pick on at least one of those sides. Prior to this year he did that once at OL (Wright), and one major FA who completely flopped (Davis). So not only not focusing in the draft on that, but also mainly not doing that in FA (again scrap heap/low end guys).

I agree that setting those aside he’s done a good job. But the crux of the matter is that I think OL and DL, outside of QB are the most important factors to winning (see Eagles). And the number one thing for a young QB to succeed is investing in OL early, so they can develop good habits rather than bad ones driven by getting pounded (dropping eyes to rush, etc). And pairing a young QB with a proven OC/developer, not an iffy HC and a retread OC.

I’m hopeful because that’s been reversed this offseason. Hopefully it works (and hopefully he continues to invest on line to keep depth and build extended success). But the philosophical issues are a concern for me. Things like the Claypool trade, while annoying, I ding him less for because individual moves can be good or bad, what worry me are more philosophically bad moves.

[Dresden]

My criticisms of Poles are basically twofold:
1. Coach hiring AND extending. The “forced on him via the Trace mafia” argument might work for the hiring, but on the resigning? That seems wholly on Poles. Add in the allowing of the hiring of Getsy and then Waldron……. :puke: absolute travesty, especially for a young franchise QB.
2. Combine 1 with not bolstering the OL for Caleb. And I’m not talking about scrap heap guys (Bates, Shelton, Patrick). Throw in the big signing of Davis with huge red flags. These are all at-the-time forseeable problems for a young QB. And the best asset used last offseason for OL w the injured Amigadije.

Now I will say in my view, he has turned those around this offseason. I love the Johnson signing, and I am somewhere between highly and overly optimistic on the 3 interior OL, and comfortable with Braxton/Ozzy for LT.

The other moves I’d say I lean positive. Mix of good (Sweat trade) and bad (Chase trade), some good picks (Wright, Brisker, Gordon, Tyrique, T. Smith), some bad (Velus, Pickens, 2 punters, Scott).

My biggest concern is the history of building “outside in” particularly with a young QB. The good news IMO is that he seems to have realized that issue and flipped to some degree (I don’t blame him for Loveland at 11 this year given the way the board fell in terms of OL and the depth at DL).

So he's made a few mistakes- which GM hasn't? How about at looking all the positives, too- such as building one of the best young secondaries in the league, have the best set of skill position players on offense in the past 40 years, having what should be a franchise QB for the first time since maybe Jim McMahon, a solid interior to the defensive line, and now, a very solid staring five on the O line. And to top it off, being able to attract one of the most sought after coaching candidates.

Does everyone who thinks Poles is doing such a lousy job think a talent like Ben Johnson would chose to come to the Bears if they were so poorly managed, if their GM was such a buffoon?

My main concern is that he’s made 2 major mistakes (coach and lack of OL focus) which seem to indicate a philosophical approach that I think is not conducive to longterm success. IMO teams should be focusing on OL and DL in EVERY draft. Not to the exclusion of other positions, but once each draft getting a top 3-4 round pick on at least one of those sides. Prior to this year he did that once at OL (Wright), and one major FA who completely flopped (Davis). So not only not focusing in the draft on that, but also mainly not doing that in FA (again scrap heap/low end guys).

I agree that setting those aside he’s done a good job. But the crux of the matter is that I think OL and DL, outside of QB are the most important factors to winning (see Eagles). And the number one thing for a young QB to succeed is investing in OL early, so they can develop good habits rather than bad ones driven by getting pounded (dropping eyes to rush, etc). And pairing a young QB with a proven OC/developer, not an iffy HC and a retread OC.

I’m hopeful because that’s been reversed this offseason. Hopefully it works (and hopefully he continues to invest on line to keep depth and build extended success). But the philosophical issues are a concern for me. Things like the Claypool trade, while annoying, I ding him less for because individual moves can be good or bad, what worry me are more philosophically bad moves.

I agree with you that Poles should have done more to fix the O line sooner than he did. He placed too much faith on a number of players that he brought in on the cheap, and almost none of them worked out, and that has been a problem for going on 3 years now.

I slightly disagree with you about the most important positions. Yes, the Eagles won with strong lines. But I believe that analytics show that have great CB's and great WR's is just as important, if not more so, than the lines. And teams have won with only average line play, but top level QB/WR and defense. And Poles did start building up the secondary in his first draft, and continued to do so. WR's he has worked on the past two offseasons.

In any case, I don't think you can make the judgement that the way Poles has built the team shows a philosophical approach that equates to him never being a good GM. He has made it a point to take players he feels are good value, regardless of position, when they become available, rather than saying "I'm going to develop the O line first, D line second, and so on". And I can't fault him for that, other than, as mentioned, he made a series of bad calls on the O line, which cost the team some development time.

Part of that I think came from him being extra careful not to take on any contracts that might look bad in a few years- so that meant not going after any high priced O lineman, until this past offseason. Again, hard to fault him too much for that. We have Joe Thuney now for 17 mil a year, and he's likely one of the 5 best guards in the league, while the top guards are making 22-24 per year.

[Dominator83]

Over the last 3 seasons, the NFL leader in TDs and passing yards is...... Jared Goff

Thats the Ben Johnson effect! So if caleb comes out this season and stinks up the field, i don't wanna hear about how its the coaches fault. Every time our QB sucks, fans always blame the coaches. It was Nagy's fault that Mitch sucked, it was Flus' fault that Fields sucked, Waldron's fault that Caleb sucked, etc. Maybe us fans should realize that its the QBs themselves who suck! The cream rises to the top, and great QBs perform no matter who the coach is. But we have proof via Goff that if the talent is there, Ben will get it out of him.

[CROBulls]

For all the Poles bashers: if the Bears have a good season and make playoffs with essentially the same talent, what does that say about your Poles evaluation?

If Bears suck, and the genius Ben Johnson can’t get this group to work right away, does that solidify Poles doom?

What is the measure: 8.5 Wins?

Keep in mind, Ben Johnson’s first year as OC on the juggernaut Lions that we all aspire to mimic was 1-6 to start that year.


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I just think there is something rotten in Chicago sports right now and this cannot be fixed by mere coach change and few draft picks. Its start at top with owners, and then management. Long time no see coach coming in changing things and things get crazy good in Chicago sport. That thing doesnt exist in modern sports. And this goes for both Bulls and Bears specifically. Hawks maybe do suck, but they dont suck because of incompetence, but by design currently.

Ben Johnson is improvement from Eberflus, but if this Ben make Bears win and go Superbowl he is most important man in this franchise. By far, because he made impossible. Not Poles, not owner, but Ben f Johnson. And deserve statue outside. Bears will get better, but I done with hyping Bears and projecting their records after another Bears offseason champions mantle.

[dice]

For all the Poles bashers: if the Bears have a good season and make playoffs with essentially the same talent, what does that say about your Poles evaluation?

it says that caleb williams and ben johnson probably make a good pair

[fleet]

And says Ben Johnson made him replace 80% of his offensive line.

[dice]

The way he's spoken about - you'd think he'd have drafted or acquired a single all-pro or pro-bowler and averaged more than 5 wins a year.

sweat was a pro bowler. and we shouldn't be factoring in year 1 results

Can't evaluate or develop a QB without an adequate OL

yes, you can. and besides the bears have had an adequate OL

the Steelers played Justin for 6 games after trading a 6th to get him and are now getting a 3rd round pick - so no, it's not in my head. The Steelers screwed the pooch by how they handled it but still got significantly more value than Poles.

totally different scenario, which i'm pretty sure you're aware of. poles could not get a compensatory pick for fields

His hit rate after the 2nd round is extremely bad, he's had two decent signings in Edwards and Billings, has allowed good talent to walk (Monty, Mooney, Fields, Daniels, Roquan) and has replaced them with expensive and worse replacements (Swift, Rome, Caleb, Davis, Edmunds).

you ruined a good point by pretending that replacing fields and mooney w/ caleb and rome falls into this category

his talent evaluation has been shoddy (Carter was picked right after Wright, he's a monster

that was not a talent evaluation. additionally, wright is good, plays a more important position and for more snaps. and dexter (also looking good) was acquired in the pick swap

Daniels was heads above Caleb in 2023 & 24

yet probably nobody would have taken him over caleb

Bowers and Brian Thomas Jr were both absolute game wreckers from the jump.)

bears already had a TE...coming off an excellent season. and thomas was not taken until #23. any team in the league could have gotten him earlier

your post was so over-the-top that you make me sound like a poles supporter!