RealGM 2025 Greatest Peaks Project #3

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RealGM 2025 Greatest Peaks Project #3 

Post#1 » by AEnigma » Today 2:01 am

Voting will close sometime after 22:00PM EST on Sunday, July 20. I have no issue extending the time to vote so long as discussion is strong, but please try to vote within the first three days.

Official ballots must include 3 different player peaks (name + year) and at least one line of reasoning for each of them. Votes which fail to do this will not be counted. Keep in mind that the expectation is to generally try to offer more than the bare minimum: reasoning such as “GOAT player in his GOAT season,” absent any other engagement or commentary in the thread, contributes exceedingly little to the primary purpose of the project, which is the thought and discussion behind the comparisons rather than the vote results themselves.

Example #1
1. 2004 Andrei Kirilenko
: Explanation
2. 2006 Shawn Marion: Explanation
3. 2004 Metta Artest: Explanation

You may also list alternate peak seasons from your three players. This is an optional step included to give clearer representation in the event that consensus is split on the choice of peak seasons. Do not list every good season a player has; the intent of this feature is to help settle disputes between specific seasons contending for selection as that player’s peak.

Example #2
1. 2004 Andrei Kirilenko
: Explanation
2. 2006 Shawn Marion (> 2003 > 2007 = 2005): Explanation
3. 2004 Metta Artest (> 2003 > 2006): Explanation

Ballots need not follow this exact format, but I request you format your ballot in such a way that a) it is obvious that post is your voting post, b) a quick glance is sufficient for me to tally your vote, and c) the order of your alternate year preferences is clear. If you decide to change your vote before the votes are tallied, please edit that same voting post rather than posting a new ballot (although you are encouraged to make separate posts about what changes you made and why).

Each thread will last at least 72 hours before I begin tallying. If there is no simple majority, then the winning player and that player’s winning season will be determined with a Condorcet tally. Players can be selected from the NBA, ABA, NBL, or BAA, with seasons from 1947-2025.

Below is the list of approved voters for this thread:
Spoiler:
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Anyone may post on-topic thoughts in the thread, but only approved voters will have their ballots counted. Requests to join the project can be made on the general discussion thread; however, unless you were included on that initial notification list or otherwise have an established history voting in forum projects, you will need to wait until the next thread to be given consideration as an approved voter. Finally, meta commentary or questions should be restricted to the above-linked general thread to keep voting threads focused on discussing peaks.


#12013 LeBron James
#21974 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
#3 — ???
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Re: RealGM 2025 Greatest Peaks Project #3 

Post#2 » by One_and_Done » Today 2:17 am

1. Tim Duncan (02, then 03)
2. Shaq (00)
3. TBC

Duncan is an easy choice for me. As I elaborated on at length in the RPOY and top 100 project, Duncan’s impact is slept on by people who only remember late career Duncan. In truth, Duncan was never at his absolute peak again after his 04 injury. He was still amazing over the rest of his prime from 04-07, maybe 95% as good as 02 and 03, but the drop was noticeable. That 2002 Spurs team wouldn’t have won 20 games without Duncan, let alone 58. Everyone on his support cast was old and washed, young and inexperienced, or highly limited. That he managed to carry a slightly better Spurs support cast to the title the next year remains one of the GOAT carry jobs of all-time. Defensively, Duncan is IMHO the GOAT, over Russell, Hakeem, etc.

Duncan 02 had nothing around him. He anchored the Spurs entire defence, and almost every offensive possession was run through him. In the playoffs, he matched up with Shaq and guarded him 1 on 1 for much/most of the series, and the stats speak for themselves. Duncan clearly outplayed Shaq.

Shaq 00 isn’t controversial. He has one of the most dominant peaks of all-time. His defence holds him back, but what he’s giving you on offense is so impactful that his foibles there don’t matter (except in comparison to someone like peak Duncan).

Not sure about vote #3 yet. We'll see who gets traction.
Warspite wrote:Billups was a horrible scorer who could only score with an open corner 3 or a FT.
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Re: RealGM 2025 Greatest Peaks Project #3 

Post#3 » by EmpireFalls » Today 2:28 am

Seriously how has Michael Jordan not been picked yet?

‘91 Michael Jordan, take this as my voting post.

DraymondGold explained it better than I ever could. viewtopic.php?p=119288894#p119288894

‘64 Bill Russell is my 2nd pick, will repeat my first post - I think he simply had more impact on the game due to the nature of the 60s style than any individual player could have today and his winning is obviously completely unmatched.

Edit: I liked the 2000 Shaq over Tim Duncan discussions from the first thread better and just generally believe Shaq had a better peak than TD due to his superior off ball offensive game and foul-drawing capability. 2000 Shaq’s defense was also pretty good if flawed. Tough between him, Hakeem, 67 Wilt, and Duncan, but I’ll take Shaq 3rd
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Re: RealGM 2025 Greatest Peaks Project #3 

Post#4 » by falcolombardi » Today 2:41 am

My vote likely will be jordan/hakeem and someone else like russel/shaq or duncan

Needing to think well about that 3rd place vote
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Re: RealGM 2025 Greatest Peaks Project #3 

Post#5 » by One_and_Done » Today 2:44 am

EmpireFalls wrote:Seriously how has Michael Jordan not been picked yet?

‘91 Michael Jordan, take this as my voting post.

DraymondGold explained it better than I ever could. viewtopic.php?p=119288894#p119288894

‘64 Bill Russell is my 2nd pick, will repeat my first post - I think he simply had more impact on the game due to the nature of the 60s style than any individual player could have today and his winning is obviously completely unmatched.

If Jordan played for the Charlotte Hornets today, would anyone think he was the GOAT? Would he even be ranked over Jokic? I am unconvinced Jordan in today's game would be as good as even peak Giannis. Like, maybe, but also a pretty strong argument against.
Warspite wrote:Billups was a horrible scorer who could only score with an open corner 3 or a FT.
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Re: RealGM 2025 Greatest Peaks Project #3 

Post#6 » by EmpireFalls » Today 2:51 am

One_and_Done wrote:
EmpireFalls wrote:Seriously how has Michael Jordan not been picked yet?

‘91 Michael Jordan, take this as my voting post.

DraymondGold explained it better than I ever could. viewtopic.php?p=119288894#p119288894

‘64 Bill Russell is my 2nd pick, will repeat my first post - I think he simply had more impact on the game due to the nature of the 60s style than any individual player could have today and his winning is obviously completely unmatched.

If Jordan played for the Charlotte Hornets today, would anyone think he was the GOAT? Would he even be ranked over Jokic? I am unconvinced Jordan in today's game would be as good as even peak Giannis. Like, maybe, but also a pretty strong argument against.

Even old Michael Jordan was giving our sorry bums the business back in the mid-2010s unfortunately. :lol: I absolutely despise MJ the owner but as a player, at his best, he was a force of nature. One of the highest motors I’ve ever seen in any sport and simply relentless athletic output. He’d be fine.

Also doubly funny to pose this question when Shai Gilgeous-Alexander (an obvious modern Jordan analogue) just won the MVP/FMVP double and managed to outdo Jokic on quite a few impact metrics. I think he could be Shai today, at least.

I can only assume you’re either trolling or are infected with terminal “modernity over everything” illness.
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Re: RealGM 2025 Greatest Peaks Project #3 

Post#7 » by AEnigma » Today 2:58 am

EmpireFalls wrote:

Reminder to list a third player.
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Re: RealGM 2025 Greatest Peaks Project #3 

Post#8 » by One_and_Done » Today 3:02 am

EmpireFalls wrote:
One_and_Done wrote:
EmpireFalls wrote:Seriously how has Michael Jordan not been picked yet?

‘91 Michael Jordan, take this as my voting post.

DraymondGold explained it better than I ever could. viewtopic.php?p=119288894#p119288894

‘64 Bill Russell is my 2nd pick, will repeat my first post - I think he simply had more impact on the game due to the nature of the 60s style than any individual player could have today and his winning is obviously completely unmatched.

If Jordan played for the Charlotte Hornets today, would anyone think he was the GOAT? Would he even be ranked over Jokic? I am unconvinced Jordan in today's game would be as good as even peak Giannis. Like, maybe, but also a pretty strong argument against.

Even old Michael Jordan was giving our sorry bums the business back in the mid-2010s unfortunately. :lol: I absolutely despise MJ the owner but as a player, at his best, he was a force of nature. One of the highest motors I’ve ever seen in any sport and simply relentless athletic output. He’d be fine.

Also doubly funny to pose this question when Shai Gilgeous-Alexander (an obvious modern Jordan analogue) just won the MVP/FMVP double and managed to outdo Jokic on quite a few impact metrics. I think he could be Shai today, at least.

I can only assume you’re either trolling or are infected with terminal “modernity over everything” illness.

In an awkward pick up game setting where guys are worried about injuring an elderly legend who is also their boss. We saw in Jordan's Washington comeback how far gone he was. In the 2010s he couldn't have made a G-League roster, the dude was 47 years old in 2010.

Shai does several things Jordan can't do, namely run a low TO offense as a point guard and hit the 3pt shot pretty reliably (most recent playoffs notwithstanding). Also it's generally agreed Jokic is the better player than Shai.
Warspite wrote:Billups was a horrible scorer who could only score with an open corner 3 or a FT.
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Re: RealGM 2025 Greatest Peaks Project #3 

Post#9 » by capfan33 » Today 3:12 am

1. Hakeem- 1993 (1994)
Generally prefer bigger players philosophically and think Hakeem would dominate any era, fitting very well in this pace and space era as an undersized bigman. Would be the best (non-actualized Wemby) defender in the league while being a very good offensive engine, playoff monster. Prefer him slightly over Kareem in a modern context due to defense and motor.

2. MJ- 1990 (1991)
A Scottie Pippen migraine from reaching the finals, greatest era relative scoring peak ever and a good playmaker. Incredibly consistent performer although overstated at times, still think he'd dominate today.

3. Duncan- 2003 (2002)
One of the msot impressive carry jobs ever even though the Nets were a terrible team by finals standards. Hakeem-esque carrying a very limited squad on his back, I ultimately like Duncan's two-way play more than someone like Jokic or Shaq and moreover contextually think what Duncan did this season is far more impressive than anything Jokic has done. Think KG deserves serious consideration as well but ultimately going with the more conventional pick.
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Re: RealGM 2025 Greatest Peaks Project #3 

Post#10 » by Paulluxx9000 » Today 4:38 am

The Greatest. Bill Russell

(1962) alternates: 1960, 1961, 1964, 1965, 1966 (Any year except for 69)

11 championships from a natural born winner who wins no matter what. Simply the best. So he doesn’t score. But he invalidates opposing offense to an extent that on defense alone you are the greatest winner in history. And hey he didn’t always have championship tier help. But he always won. The best man defender. The best help defender. The best leader. The best winner. Lebron is a titan. But he was never inevitable like Russell.

Russell’s impact was so singular his sole defensive impact outweighed his entire teams offense and turned them from an okay team made of offensive stars to a defensive dynasty headed by one man.


The Fundamental. Tim Duncan

(2002) Alternates: 2003

Spoiler:
Paulluxx9000 wrote:Duncan’s at his best now here’s the final version
Tim Duncan. You could say he was already the best player. You could. Really. He’s that good. He can pop, he can pass, he can block, he can step out and stop. He needs a little time to figure it out but man, it’s only a little. KG, Shaq, Duncan. Side by side by side in their primes. That’s just incredible. I’m a Duncan over Hakeem guy. No he didn’t move as much. No he didn’t spin like a ballerina. But he was there, where he needed to be, whenever he needed to be, again and again and again and again and again. Bowens. Robinson. Manu. Tika Taka. Twin Towers. No matter what Duncan was there. On and off, placed in a straight jacket. Given little privilege over the guy seated at the end of he bench. Duncan didn’t get to be an icon. But he was always there all the same. He’s a monster to score on. He’s a monster to defend. Shaq is shaq but if there was no shaq Duncan would be next. Triples and doubles galore. And he can pass it, really pass it. Not just praying on neanderthal defensive schemes like the Jordans and Hakeems, but make for others when making is hard.
And you never want to try him at the basket. Unless you’re shaq. And like the tortoise vs the hare, even the quick and fast will run into trouble if they confuse Mr.Duncan as some statue. He’s not the full thing but he’s already pretty close. He’s the best of his era. And when he faces Malone he might already be BITW.
He’ll get better no doubt. He has work to do containing penetration. Work to do as using his unusual ball control to turn doubles into near triples and work to do timing when he jumps. But the key qualities are all there and the Spurs win with what was close to about any team ever as a 2 man team.

Last time he lost but this time he wins and boy did he deserve it. Best in the world. Best of the decade. Almost. Pure basketball there might have been no one better until the alien drafted next season.


The Dream. Hakeem Olajuwon

(1993)

Spoiler:
The Bigs are back.
And here’s a big man. Best defender. One of the best offensive players in the league. Maybe even top 3 in the playoffs.
Hakeem Olajuwon isn’t perfect. Definitely not this young. He has a perchance for dumb fouls, overhelping, ill-advised shots, all that jazz. But there’s no one else in the league who blends offensive threat, and defensive dynamism like he does and he had himself a dream (heh) of a playoff run. Sampson played great those playoffs (at least before the finals)), key guys stepped up, but this was Hakeem’s show and that show bulldozed the west while holding itself pretty well against a proper superteam even with the key guys went off-key




Hakeem’s not young this year. But he is wiser and has his first opportunity to really show out. Show out he did.

His defense is better than when he was stomping on show-time and larry bird. Best rim protector. Best man defender. Best help defender. A top 3 rebounder.

But his offense, whoo. He opens teams up just as much (maybe more) than the MJs and the Mark Prices and the Barkleys. He can’t render everyone meaningless in a flash like Magic but he’s a invalidate 2-3-4 guy too now. He scores in bunches and those bunches are extra special because alot of them come facing bunches of defenders.

Statistically this is obvious but the tape makes it undeniable. Hakeem is far and away the best player in the league. Not in the heres the ws48 way, but in the no one comes close to the totality of what I’m doing to make my team win way.

I think that’s the way that matters personally. He should get all the votes (I know he won’t).
[/spoiler]
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Re: RealGM 2025 Greatest Peaks Project #3 

Post#11 » by Special_Puppy » Today 5:26 am

EmpireFalls wrote:Seriously how has Michael Jordan not been picked yet?

‘91 Michael Jordan, take this as my voting post.

DraymondGold explained it better than I ever could. viewtopic.php?p=119288894#p119288894




I would still kind of like a high quality response to DG’s post from people who don’t have Jordan in their top 2.
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Re: RealGM 2025 Greatest Peaks Project #3 

Post#12 » by Elpolo_14 » Today 5:53 am

3. TIM DUNCAN 2003 ( 2002 > 2004 = 1999 > 2001 )
Great regular and post season in which he shouldered a heavy load in both end of the floor with not much help on the offensive side. Impact metrics look great, especially in the playoffs. Defense is replicable in many different eras and can bring value in many situation while his offense was continuously resilient throughout the playoffs.
.
1. Defense and rebound
Duncan is an all time defensive motor for the team and his impact on defense even while playing PF ( not is real position and he give the position the D.rob ). Elite interior defender as his presence is enough to destabilize the offensive team. He can block shot / contest / Clean up for Prerimeter failure or even roam around to be able to help all the teammates if needed. With his size and really quick foot he can guard big or wing without much problem. Not much player ( except Shaq ) can penetrate Tim Duncan post defense regularly. He also a good PnR defender to keep up with the ball handler or the rill man. Not much exploitable in the prerimeter either.
Have Great rebounding ability as he can Boxout with his frame and strength to overpower other player in the paint. Good balance and center of gravity to not be moved around easy additional with great defensive awareness make him a great rebounder
PLAYOFF : 12.7 RPG
REG SZN : 14.4 RPG

2. SCORING
He good in the overall scoring department. He have great post move and post scoring ability. An reliable mid range and elite rim touch. His FT shooting is decent enough to not be a weakness or can be good cause he force the opposite team to foul him making the defense less aggressive ( RS - 71.0% / PS- 67.7% ) . His scoring traits doesn't get limited by playoff scheme or person either ( with this year specificly )
REG SZN : 26.2 PPG on +4.2 rTS ( +5.8 rts adj to own shot Putback )
Playoff : 25.4 PPG on +6.2 rTS adj. ( Against -1.6 rDRTG )
3. PLAYMAKER
Duncan have Great read and good passing package to be impactful in this aspect of the game. Really good bounce pass and overhead pass. Great IQ to make or create separation for his teammates with his post gravity. All time screen setter with great screen timing. Elite roll man in the PNR or he can be be the ball handler who drive to the basket to pass out cause he get double by the defense too.
TIM DUNCAN STAT
REG SZN : 26.2 PPG / 14.4 RPG / 4.4 APG with 4.1 stocks and 3.4 TOV
PLAYOFF : 25.4 PPG / 12.7 RPG /5.4 APG With 3.8 Stocks and 3.2 TOV


The SPURS
REG SZN
RECORD 60-22 -> 5.65 SRS ( top 3 In league )
Offense Rating of +2.0 rORTG ( Top 7 in league)
Defense Rating of -3.9 rDRTG ( Top 3 in league )

PLAYOFF
Playoff Offensive Rating: +1.80 (83rd), Playoff Defensive Rating: -8.65 (14th)
Playoff SRS: +10.66 (47th), Total SRS Increase through Playoffs: +3.36 (34th)
Average Playoff Opponent Offense: +2.75 (34th), Average Playoff Opponent Defense: -1.70 (59th)

To Add on : Duncan playing more minutes than his second option by a significant amount will push his on court impact down to some extent due to him playing with the second rotation or the bench. Tim Duncan on/off is a +8.8 Net rating ( +16.3 Swing )
He lead +3.9 rORTG and -4.9 rDRTG on court .

Duncan 2003 Offensive On/Off
his impact swing is +13.5 ( on +3.9 vs off -8.6 )

When Duncan is on the floor his team Shoot more efficiently and are less TOv Prone -> 54.2 TS% ( +3.0 better than off ) / 16.8 TOV% ( -2.2 better than off ) / 31.4 OREB% ( +7.4 better than off )
DUNCAN being an elite Offensive rebounder make his team offense much easier to sustain their production with all the possession retain or Putback shot.

His defense on/off :
Impact on Defense when Duncan is on he floor -> 98.4 rDRTG ( -3.7 better ) / 48.3 D-TS% ( -5.2 better ) / 16.0 D-TOV% ( +2.2 Better ) / 31.1 D-REB% ( +3.2 better than off )

Even without hi best interior defender on D.rob. Duncan able to lead -2.6 rDRTg ( 5.5 swing if Duncan was off too ).
Duncan have an all time defensive anchor ability even tho he needed to play with D.rob who was hurting Duncan overall Impact.
The next year in 2004 when D.rob already retire Duncan was able to anchor -8.8 rDRTG ( best in the history post 60s ) which prove that he didn't need D.rob as much as we might have thought.
But not to diminish D.rob who was excellent defender in the playoffs especially against the Lakers with Shaq which he was the primary role and Duncan as help defender.


In PLAYOFFS on court
Duncan when on the floor in the playoffs Lead a +3.4rORTG adj and -10.2 rDRTG adj.. against elite defensive team ( -1.6 rDRTG and +2.7 rORTG )

1. Against the SUNS ( +0.1 rORTG / -0.9 rDRTG ) DUNCAN lead -3.1 rORTG adj. / 13.7 rDRTG adj.

2. Against LAKERS ( +3.6 rORTG / 1.2 rDRTG ) DUNCAN lead +6.6 rORTG adj. / -7.1 rDRTG adj.

3. Against MAVS ( +7.1 rORTG / -1.2 rDRTG ) DUNCAN lead +8.2 rORTG adj. / -8.9 rDRTG adj

4. Against NETS ( +0.2 rORTg / -5.6 rDRTG ) DUNCAN lead +2.2 rORTG adj. / -11.6 rDRtG adj

Duncan being the Top 4 best defender all time ( bill Hakeem KG in conversation ) with all his interior defensive Skillsets couple it with his best year offensively which was able to translate in the playoffs ( even with the lack of offensive help by his teammates D.rob / Rookie Tony / Second year Manu were all bad offensive player.
1. Tony lack the efficiency and decision making
2. D rob lack the self creation and aggressiveness
3. Manu lack the volume and enough court awareness to be impactful and he was not efficient )

Duncan playoff run is nothing but an All-time Carry Job on both end of the floor with excellent productivity even against Good team


This is the results of my tracking when Duncan was Guarding Shaq as a primary role in 2002 Thanks to *70sFan compilation*( without D.rob ) " it not 2003 but the premises of the player ability still the same "
Overall ( 5 game series )
- Contest - 29
- NO LAZY CONTEST AT ALL.
- SHAQ D-FGA - 40
- SHAQ D- FGM - 17
- SHAQ D-FG -> 17/40 or 0.425 FG%

Summarize - Duncan able to hold is own against Shaq but still got overpower in many occasions. Forcing the Spurs to send help when they're on an island. Duncan in transition isn't able to guard Shaq very which resort to Foul many time. But Duncan discipline and Court awareness able to put Shaq in harder situation anytime and able to positioning himself great enough to force Shaq against a Spurs help.

This show that even with the lack of second back line help Duncan able to Slow Shaq down to the point of 42.5 FG% ( on 40 FGA )which is extremely well. Shaq in that series Shot a total of 94 FGA ( so Duncan was on him around 40% of his shot ) - if we subtract Shot that Duncan was primary on Shaq - He would have 54 FGA on 46.3 FG%. So the differential is -3.8%


4. HAKEEM 1994 ( 1993 > 1995 >= 1989 = 1986 )
The best Center in the 90s era with Goat tier defensive ability and Elite offense which he able to uplift his team both end of the floor.

1. SCORING
Goat tier post scoring ability with his strength+ elite movement both Upper body and foot work ( know as the dream shake ). Can post up smaller defense by out muscle them or Post-up huge big with Skillsets and fake them to make an uncontested Shot or outmaneuvered with spin move . With all the Post move mave his rim pressure ( lob threat + drive )and rim touch also all time great level. Hakeem have a reliable midrange at the elbow or Short corner that create Spacing both for himself and teammates ( due to his great midrange that open up great PnP game ). Great transition with his physicality and drive pressure in paint. His shot diet and tempo get improve a lot in 1993 to 1995 time with his more control and less reactionary shot. Add to all these Skillsets he have an elite tough shot making instinct. Any regular Center who got left guarding him one-one are in a bad situation.

2. Passing and Playmaking
With the établish Scoring threat Hakeem push on the defense around the rim. That create a big gravity which help build Seperation for his teammates at the prerimeter ( midrange and THREE-POINTER ). With the new offense RUDY ( coach ) run to operate a 3pt play with Hakeem as the center of gravity on offense make Hakeem ability at the rim even more valuable. Hakeem have a basic passing arsenal with bounce pass / regular pass / overhead pass but combine with the defense Attention he able to time elite timing when the double is near him and not close to teammates operating Space. His footwork also help to fake the defense to make them believe on a scoring attempt which end up as a pass. But he still have weakness his contant post movement make him miss Rim creation ( aka open mate at paint ) or cutting/slashing teammates near the paint. His scoring aggressive also make him lack court awareness for some open play.

3. Defense and rebound.
Goat tier Interior defense with his speed and awareness. His awareness also help him as a Roamer to cut the driving lane or to come contest/closeout shot which his teammates aren't able to keep up. His shot blocking ability combine with his perseverance to cleanup ( his recovery and foot bust is a big factor ) for his team make his rim presence incomparable. His lateral and vertical movement + timing to contest always make the offense struggle. His post defense is great with physicality and body control+ hand movements. He able to guard Wing at the prerimeter or in a PNR which he can be elite to defend both the roll man or ball handler.
For rebounding he have elite positioning and movement to get rebound at the easiest point. With his vertical and strength help him Boxout other center.

The Rocket REG SZN
Record 58-34 : 4.19 SRS ( top 6 )
Offense: -0.4 rORTG ( top 15 )
Defense: -4.9 rDRTG ( TOP 2 only behind knick who were -8 )

PLAYOFF HAKEEM able to anchor +1.3 rORTG and -2.7 rDRTG = 3.5 Net rating.
Or +4.0 rORTG Adj. And -4.5 rDRTG adj. To opponent ( offense and defense in regular season )

Hakeem stat ( IA/75 )
REG : 27.2 PPG / 11.8 RPG / 3.5 APG with 3.3 TOV 5.3 Stocks on 56.5 TS ( +3.7 rTS )

Playoff : 29.0 PPG / 11.0 RPG / 4.3 APG with 3.6 TOV 5.8 Stocks on 56.8 TS ( +4.8 rTS adj. Against -2.7 rDRTG )

HAKEEM WOWY from 1993 -> 1995 ( to have a bigger sample size )
With : 0.667 Win or 55 win Pace
Offense: 109.0 O-Rating
Defense: 104.9 D-Rating

Without: 0.333 Win or 27 win Pace
Offense : 109.3 O-Rating
Defense: 112.1 D-Rating

His team defense got hurt the most cause Hakeem is the hearts and soul of the defensive motor.

Hakeem was the best defender in this year by a big margin and his offensive Resiliency even against all time defense as the Knick in Final especially as a scorer which he able to out perform any other great big / wing in a single playoff run is insane.

For me 1994 and 1993 are equally as good


Hakeem Scalability to the New style of offense RUDY implement really show how prolific Hakeem can be in a great system.

One of the most fascinating aspect of Hakeem playoff run might be how he fair against other team Bigmen *no matter if they were star or not . Let look at their Scoring Stat ( stat is NOT everything but it easier to show than tell people to go watch all the game because Hakeem doesn't guard everyone of them 100% of the possession )when they were against Hakeem defense motor.

First Round - All star Center : Clifford Robinson
RS - 20.1 PPG on 46.1 eFG%
PS - 16.3 PPG on 42.6 eFG%

Hakeem exterminate him both in term of volume and efficiency while being the best offensive player in his team by averaging 34 PPG on 50.5 eFG%

Second Round - Suns play mostly Small rotation player so not really great Center to be against Hakeem : AC.Green + Oliver Miller
AC :
RS - 14.7 PPG on 50.6 eFG%
PS - 12.0 PPG on 55.5 eFG%
BIG O :
RS - 9.2 PPG on 66.1 eFG
PS - 3.6 PPG on 57.9 eFG%

The Suns were running small but escalating the Pace line up with quicker player so Hakeem able to be more dominant on the Offensive end cause there were no player big enough to slow him down. Hakeem outplayed Everyone with scoring average of 28.7 PPG on 56.3 eFG

Third round - ALL NBA PF : K.Malone ( Secondary assignment ) + Regular Center : felton Spencer.
K.Malone
RS: 27.1 PPG on 46.7 eFG%
PS: 26.0 PPG on 43.3 eFG%
Felton
RS: 7.9 PPG on 44.8 eFG%
PS: 7.0 PPG on 33.3 eFG%

This time again Hakeem defense able to affect the Bigmen of the opposite team but the difference is the Jazz also able to hold Hakeem down more than previous round with the Two big player in the paint as Felton + Malone. Hakeem still average 27.8 PPG on 50.0 eFG%

The Final - TOP 5 MVP Center - PATRICK EWING
RS: 24.5 PPG on 49.7 eFG%
PS: 18.9 PPG on 33.6 eFG%

This might be the biggest Victim cause by Hakeem dominance in this run. He kill Patrick Ewing to the point that his scoring number look like a second or third option. While Hakeem is performing like this against Ewing( Knick best defense in the league ) : Hakeem 26.9 PPG on 50.3 eFG%

In conclusion Hakeem ability to hold down opposite team Bigmen with his defense while outperforming the star on offense is something we don't see very often in playoffs history


5. MICHAEL JORDAN 1991 ( 1989 = 1990 > 1993 > 1988 )
MJ what can I say about this well known player which Impact able to Trancent both On court and off the court ( the Sport itself at that time ).
1. SCORING
GOAT tier High volume scorer. There might not be a single player ( Except Kareem ) who could content against MJ as a Scorer. MJ have All time ability to Score at the rim with his First Step he can burst pass Defender or Split into tight lane and Finish with a Dunk or Layup ( with the help of his Verticality and touch ). TOP 3 best Midrange scorer with his Air time to get over Contest ( from most source he was hitting over 40+ % on high Volume ) combine to the post move to trick or get in better position to score + Create seperation for himself to make a fade/fall away shot which is harder for defender to contest. He didn’t need a fast pace, perfect spacing, or a flowing system to be elite, he could just slow the game down, go one-on-one, and get a bucket against pretty much anyone. Whether it was late in the clock, in a crowded paint, or against a top-tier defender, Jordan always had an answer. His footwork, balance, the ability to create space were just different+his physical traits makes him more reliable in a postseason setting. He's still the best self creator of all time while giving some of the best off ball play of all time.
REG SZN : 33.7 PPG/IA75 on +7.1 rts
PLAYOFF : 33.2 PPG/IA75 on +8.0rts agj. against -1.65 rDRTG opponets in playoffs

2. Playmaking
Just by MJ scoring Threat alone is enough for defense to put a target on his back whenever he touch the ball or Move off-ball to an easier position to score on the half court. His passing off the double team on the post or off the drive was Elite. He able to find open teammates which were open due to MJ creating Seperation for them. His court awareness and decision making were great both as a ball handler or off-ball when the triage are still setting the play. His TOV economy is one of the best with how he able to handle to ball in tough situation without losing it and get to place that make the offense flow. Some critic on his playmaking for me might be the lack of diversity and sometimes his delivery isn't on point but again that isn't a big deal cause he able to manipulate defense on a high rate.

3. DEFENSE
Top 15 best Guard defender ever in my opinion. Elite on the ball with how much pressure he put on the ball handler and how active his hand and feet were to disturb the flow of offense. By that ability he's elite as POA defender. Great Screen Navigation on the ball + great passing deny ( an all time Prerimeter guard defender ). He have some Good instinct as help defender but sometimes being too aggressive to lost his man or fouling on help. He was somewhat decent as Interior defense not as primary role but more like a third role to help clean up when a player enter the painted area ( against Drive which he able to anticipated to some extent ). His Onball ability is really impressive but the offball is a bit lacking. He Ok-ish to pursue player off the ball and his screen Navigation seem to lack more effort. His positioning or cutting advantageous space is not great combine with his gambling nature that can make his team defensive system fall apart. But for the off ball to note is his passing lane steal are really Valuable as Defense Playmaking because it can create fast break opportunities.


Regular Season Record: 61-21, Regular Season SRS: +8.57 (14th), Earned the 1 Seed
Regular Season Offensive Rating: +6.7 (11th), Regular Season Defensive Rating: -2.7 (64th)
Shooting Advantage: +2.8%, Possession Advantage: +3.4 shooting possessions per game

Playoff Offensive Rating: +6.48 (36th), Playoff Defensive Rating: -7.92 (18th)
Playoff SRS: +15.73 (6th), Total SRS Increase through Playoffs: +6.38 (3rd)
Shooting Advantage: +6.2%, Possession Advantage: -1.7 shooting possessions per game
Average Playoff Opponent Offense: +2.92 (28th), Average Playoff Opponent Defense: -1.18 (69th)

MJ STAT ( inflation adjusted+ per 75 possession )
REG : 33.7 PPG / 6.4 RPG / 5.9 APG with 4.0 Stocks 2.6 TOV on +7.1 rTS ( to league average )

PLAYOFF : 33.2 PPG / 6.7 RPG / 8.9 APG with 3.9 Stocks 2.7 TOV on +8.0 rTS adj. ( To opponent )

My reasoning to pick MJ would be his Offensive ability ( which I have as Top 1-3 Range all time ) while being an elite Guard defender which really benefits his Value overall.

NOMINATIONS: SHAQ 2000 - I use to have him at 5th spot but after rewatching 2 game against blazer and 1 game against Sacramento. Make me evaluate him one spot lower than MJ who used to be 6th
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Re: RealGM 2025 Greatest Peaks Project #3 

Post#13 » by 70sFan » Today 6:55 am

Elpolo_14 wrote: NOMINATIONS: SHAQ 2000 - I use to have him at 5th spot but after rewatching 2 game against blazer and 1 game against Sacramento. Make me evaluate him one spot lower than MJ who used to be 6th

Could you expand on what observations made you lower on him?
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Re: RealGM 2025 Greatest Peaks Project #3 

Post#14 » by Elpolo_14 » Today 9:50 am

70sFan wrote:
Elpolo_14 wrote: NOMINATIONS: SHAQ 2000 - I use to have him at 5th spot but after rewatching 2 game against blazer and 1 game against Sacramento. Make me evaluate him one spot lower than MJ who used to be 6th

Could you expand on what observations made you lower on him?


I already know his overall ability both end of the floor in general cause I have watched many Shaq series in the past but by rewatching his playoff run ( now I watch 2 game against Sacramento compare to when I did the first post but still same amount of blazer game ) I think I value some traits more than it really was on the court.

The main difference made after rewatching is mostly about Defense.

1. He not really as great as I remember on Help defense when His teammates are in disadvantageous situation or are in a Mismatch. He ball watching too much to the point he doesn't decide to take action or when he does it too late cause he not really fast horizontally. Example - Webber is Posting up a smaller player at the post/near post and Shaq is in paint as a back up defender but he doesn't go up to help on the weak side nor Cutting the driving lane to force Webber to jump shot or Pass. After Webber post up to a advantage position he would spin drive inside for a bucket/ attempt bucket which Shaq is not there to contest or help cut his lane of driving which he should have done ( because he didn't go help to prevent this From happening before Webber come in close ) " this happen 3 TIME IN A ROW"

2. his recovery is a weakness. When he play drop he have a hard time to take action against another threat or when the opposite team play PnP instead of PnR style. He bite easily to fake and isn't able to recover fast enough to go stay with his man. Example - Divac would pump fake which Shaq bite and drive but got his driving lane cut by a Lakers so Divac step back to shot/pass but Shaq isn't close to cover Divac yet ( even with his team help to push Divac out the paint )

3. His lack of Court awareness on defense. His lost his man quite easily and not knowing where they are on court

4. His efforts to contest ( interior is a bit worse than I thought and Prerimeter as Worse as I remember ) - He wouldn't even step out 1 foot to go contest a midrange jumper which Divac was able to use it against Shaq ( if only he was more efficient ). When a Guard drive to the basket he we take too much time to think so they're able to drive pass Shaq for a bucket or Shaq need to foul them from behind ( J.william did this against Shaq numerous time ). His positioning to gap disadvantage in rotation is also slow.

On offense would be really minimal compare to defense
1. His passing are too Reactionary - he would often pass to the nearest teammates instead of the more open one to create opportunities for them ( these teammates aren't far apart in some occasion ). Which is something I thought he was better at. He miss many Creation due to the lack of Passing arsenal or decision making on Offense.

The Thing I said are not to point out that Shaq is a bum in these Category but just "He is worse on those ability than what I remembered". Which is why I put him lower than the previous post
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Re: RealGM 2025 Greatest Peaks Project #3 

Post#15 » by Joao Saraiva » Today 9:54 am

I'm not in the project but as a guy who has Hakeem #1 I'm surprised both he and MJ are not in yet. Also I disagree a lot with LBJ 13 as his own peak and take his playoff run as definitely not one of his greatest.

Too late to be in the project or can I still apply for voting?
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Re: RealGM 2025 Greatest Peaks Project #3 

Post#16 » by trelos6 » Today 10:27 am

I’d love to write something beautiful about MJ, but why re-invent the wheel. Sansterre has written something beautiful in his best teams series.
Spoiler:
Going into the 1991 season the Bulls were given +700 odds, 4th in the league, behind the defending champion Pistons, the Lakers and the San Antonio Spurs (David Robinson had emerged as a rookie and led the team to 56 wins, so people figured that they were a team on the rise).

Looking back on it, the ‘91 Bulls being ranked #4 seems a little crazy, right? All the teams above them on this list were unquestionably ranked #1 going into the season (actually, possible exception of the '71 Bucks). #4 is as low as any team in the Top 10 was ranked until you get to the ‘14 Spurs. Jordan was *obviously* an absolute monster and his supporting cast was improving considerably (thanks to Pippen and Grant’s development).

Jordan being underappreciated by the oddsmakers is a curious trend. They absolutely low-balled the Bulls in ‘85, ‘87, ‘88 and ‘89 (if you’re counting the postseason, they were spot on with the regular season). Over and over again the oddsmakers just didn’t take the Jordan Bulls that seriously.

Were they simply dumb? I mean, Jordan is, well, Jordan, right? How could they have failed to understand how insanely dominant he was? You’ll note that none of the numbers I referenced were advanced stats; I only used stats that were available at the time. The guy led the league in points scored five of the FIVE years he was healthy through that stretch. In that stretch he finished 1st in VORP four times (2nd his rookie year). Yet he only won one MVP in that stretch and had his team routinely low-balled by Vegas.

I’m going to tell you right now that Vegas wasn’t being dumb. They were being smart, drawing the conclusions that best fit the data they had available to them at that time.

This is a long way of saying: nobody had ever seen *anything* like Jordan.

Let’s talk about it.

Riddle me this Batman; name every non-big to lead the league in points *and* win the title in the same season before, say, 1986.

It shouldn’t take you long. It’s a short list.

That crap had never happened.

Ever.

Furthermore, it has never happened after Jordan either (though we’re talking about the data Vegas had available for Jordan, so that’s less relevant).

Let’s actually go through all the NBA points leaders since 1955, with records and playoffs (I’m adjusting records to 82 game seasons):

1955: Neil Johnston, 38 wins, no playoffs
1956: Bob Pettit, 38 wins, lost Conference Finals
1957: Paul Arizin, 42 wins, lost Semis
1958: George Yardley, 38 wins, lost Conference Finals
1959: Bob Pettit, 56 wins, lost Conference Finals
1960-66: Wilt Chamberlain, avg 48 wins, 1 Finals loss, 3 Conf Finals losses

Can I take a moment to point out that Wilt led the league in points for seven straight years? And that the first year he didn’t lead the league in points (1967) was also the year that Wilt actually won the championship? Kinda jumps out at ya doesn’t it?

1967: Rick Barry, 45 wins, lost NBA Finals
1968: Dave Bing, 40 wins, lost Semis
1969: Elvin Hayes, 37 wins, lost Semis
1970-72: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, averaged 62 wins, Lost 2 Conference Finals, One Championship
1973: Tiny Archibald, 36 wins, no playoffs
1974-76: Bob McAdoo, average 46 wins, 3 lost in Semis
1977: Pete Maravich, 35 wins, no playoffs
1978-80: George Gervin, average 47 wins, Lost once in 1st, Semis and Conference Finals
1981: Adrian Dantley, 28 wins, no playoffs
1982: George Gervin, 48 wins, loss in Conference Finals
1983: Alex English, 45 wins, loss in Semis
1984: Adrian Dantley, 45 wins, loss in Semis

So . . . we’re talking an average of 43 wins for teams with the leading scorer, 1 championship in 30, 2 Finals losses out of 30 . . . This is *not* a good set of teams. And if you take out the ‘70-72 Bucks it gets even worse. I’m not saying that it’s bad per se to have the leading scorer, but it emphatically has nothing to do with being a great team. And, frankly, the only one to have any serious success was Kareem. But he’s a bit of an exception to a lot of rules.

The above is to communicate the following: the Bulls having a player (Jordan) leading the league in scoring every year impressed the Vegas oddsmakers not at all from a winning point of view. And look at that list. It *shouldn’t* have impressed them.

Let’s take a look at this from a different angle. Here are Jordan’s estimated percentage of his team’s shooting possessions taken (normally I’d use usage, but I don’t have that for most of this timespan):

1985: 30.5%
1986: 40.1%
1987: 39.9%
1988: 35.3%
1989: 32.8%
1990: 34.8%

So, in his crazy unsupported days he averaged taking close to 40% of his team’s shots. As his team got more successful he backed off into the 33-35% range. Let’s compare this to the leading scorers on every title team through 1990 back to 1955 (regular season):

1990: Isiah Thomas, 24.5%
1989: Isiah Thomas, 23.5%
1988: Byron Scott, 23.5%
1987: Magic Johnson, 25.7%
1986: Larry Bird, 27.8%
1985: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, 25.1%
1984: Larry Bird, 27.1%
1983: Moses Malone, 26.6%
1982: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, 25.8%
1981: Larry Bird, 24.6%
1980: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, 24.1%
1979: Gus Williams, 27.9%
1978: Elvin Hayes, 21.9%
1977: Maurice Lucas, 24.6%
1976: Jo Jo White, 21.9%
1975: Rick Barry, 33.2%
1974: John Havlicek, 24.1%
1973: Walt Frazier, 22.4%
1972: Gail Goodrich, 27.2%
1971: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, 29.0%
1970: Willis Reed, 22.3%
1969: John Havlicek, 25.2%
1968: John Havlicek, 24.4%
1967: Wilt Chamberlain, 16.9%
1966: Sam Jones, 28.2%
1965: Sam Jones, 28.0%
1964: John Havlicek, 25.9%
1963: Sam Jones, 23.9%
1962: Tom Heinsohn, 28.2%
1961: Tom Heinsohn, 28.0%
1960: Tom Heinsohn, 25.9%
1959: Bill Sharman, 24.1%
1958: Bob Pettit, 27.3%
1957: Bill Sharman, 24.2%
1956: Paul Arizin, 27.3%
1955: Dolph Schayes, 26.0%

So, a few things. Note that Kareem in ‘71, despite leading the league in points, only took about 29% of his team’s shots when on the floor. Kareem wasn’t actually a super high-usage player; he simply didn’t miss that much. So despite leading the league in points, he was only 3rd in shots taken and 12th in shots missed.

And notice that, with the exception of Rick Barry, there are *zero* players that took 30% or more of their team’s shots when on the court that lead a championship team in scoring. It simply didn’t happen.

Why?

It’s mostly guesswork. I have a few hypotheses:

1) Players that want to take a lot of shots alienate their teammates and undermine an effective team dynamic; or
2) Teams that win championships are generally good enough to have enough shooters that their leading scorer doesn’t *need* to take that many shots.

And let’s think about it. The 60s were dominated by the Celtics, who had an ATG (perhaps *the* ATG defense) and merely a serviceable offense. Wilt started winning championships when he went away from taking most of his team’s shots and started focusing on defense and more team play. Then we head into the 70s, where the best teams are the ball-movement and defense Knicks, the Bucks (for whom Kareem didn’t need to take tons of shots to make a ton of impact) and the Lakers (who had a fairly balanced attack). Move into the rest of the 70s and (with the exception of Rick Barry and the Warriors) you get a bunch of defense & teamwork teams. Move into the 80s and you have the Lakers (notable by being run by an equal opportunity point guard), the Celtics (who have Bird, who doesn’t get very close to 30%, and has lots of team-centric skills), the Sixers (who had *three* main scorers and so didn’t need anyone to use too many possessions) and the Pistons (who were an archetypal defense & teamwork team).

With the exception of the ‘75 Warriors, there simply aren’t players that are carried by one player taking a ton of shots that have any success.

This was the track record that Vegas was referencing.

This is why Jordan was talking about how his scoring numbers were going to drop after ‘88 (they did some, but he’d still lead the league in points per game *nine* more times).

Because teams that won almost never did so by having one guy take a ton of shots.

Did teams (and the analysts of their day) still talk about having ‘clutch’ shooters to take it home? Of course. But absolutely nobody was looking at the George Gervins, Adrian Dantleys or pre-1967 Wilt Chamberlains of the league and saying “Without a guy like that you just can’t win”. Year after year those kinds of players would flame out. Some made the transition, like Elvin Hayes, going from high-volume scorer on a weak team to valuable team player on a great team. But high-volume scorers were rightly seen as somewhat antithetical to winning.

Which is really interesting.

Because in the modern game it’s almost the opposite. People point at great scorers like Kevin Durant and hold him in high esteem because of his other-worldly scoring (he’s great, of course, but his scoring is seen as a singular virtue). The number of times in conversations on these boards (and even more often off of them) it is considered borderline axiomatic that without a go-to scorer, a #1 option, an alpha, it is almost impossible to win a championship.

Here’s a crazy thesis.

Are you ready?

This position *did not exist* before Jordan (and if it did, it really shouldn't have).

I mean, you can get tautological with it; if a team wins a championship, they presumably have a top scorer, and championship + top scorer = championship alpha player.

This reasoning is, of course, garbage. Isiah Thomas may have been the Bad Boy Pistons’ go-to scorer in the postseason, but they won because of team defense and execution, not because Isiah Thomas lifted his merely mortal teammates to the promised land with his volume scoring.

Who was the biggest prospect of the 60s? A big man who could score (but didn’t take a ton of shots), rebound, defend and pass (Kareem). The biggest prospect of the 70s? A big man who scored really efficiently but didn’t take a ton of shots, was a monster rebounder, passer and defender (Walton). The biggest prospects of the 80s? Defensive monster big men who rebounded a ton and could also score (Hakeem and Robinson).

But after Jordan the players that got the most attention (this isn’t empirical, but it seems true) were scoring wings. Iverson, Kobe, Carmelo, Wade, Derrick Rose, LeBron, Durant, Westbrook, Harden, Curry, Kyrie, Dame . . . I’ll absolutely stipulate that the game in the last decade or so has shifted to more perimeter-skills driven, and that’s part of it, but I genuinely believe that the unconscious heuristic for evaluating greatness has changed.

Before Jordan, the unconscious heuristic was around Russell/low-scoring Wilt/Walton/Kareem.

After Jordan, there was a new heuristic for greatness.

How else do you explain Kobe being considered a legitimate GOAT candidate by so many, despite the fact that almost every single objective test puts him well below that standard? I maintain that it’s because GOAT became synonymous with ‘Jordanesque’ and Kobe was the most Jordanesque player since.

How else do you get players like Duncan and Garnett (quintessential pre-Jordan bigs in terms of being monster defenders, rebounders, capable passers and strong scorers) being dismissed with reasoning like “But are they a true #1 scoring option?” (this applies to Garnett more than Duncan.) But there seems a considerable blindness to the value of players that isn’t tied directly to their scoring - a guy like Duncan that contributed in literally everything (but never posted gaudy scoring numbers) gets dismissed as a system player. Because if he doesn’t check the boxes that Jordan checked, how good can Duncan really be?

So yeah. I honestly believe that Jordan was so good, so dominant, that he broke everybody's mind. That on some level before Jordan everybody was looking for the next Russell/Kareem, the next team-first transcendent big (Russell was defense, rebounding and some passing, Kareem was the complete package). And that after Jordan everybody was looking for the next volume-scoring wing.

But that heuristic shift hadn’t happened yet going into the ‘91 season. There’s a reason that even with Jordan’s gaudy scoring numbers he was compared unfavorably to Magic. Magic was a “winner”, who “made his teammates better”. And Jordan, it was thought, didn’t. Because he took a lot of shots (and his teammates early on weren’t very good).

Which is bullcrap, we know now; Jordan took tons of shots with quality efficiency *and* set his teammates up, both with passing and defensive attention. It’s just that nobody had ever done it that well at that volume before (and Jordan also added a ton of value on the rebounding/passing/defensive side of things, it’s just that his scoring was so nuts that’s what people focused on).

So here’s the question: was the obsession with Jordan-esque scoring after him misguided, or a predictor of new trends? Anecdotally we can say that there are a lot of teams after him that won with a lot of ball-dominance. The Shaq/Kobe Lakers were ball-dominant, the Spurs really weren’t, the Pistons weren’t, the Heat were, the Celtics weren’t, the Kobe Lakers were, the LeBron Heat/Cavs/Lakers were, the Warriors were and the Raptors were. It honestly seems that ball-dominant wings became better since Jordan . . . but did they?

So, here’s the way we’re going to check. I’m going to go through and check every single 30+% usage player since usage started being a thing. I’m going to note the percentage of these high-volume players relative to the number of teams in the league, and note how many teams they averaged beating (in this case I’ll say that missing the playoffs = 0, a first round exit = the number of non playoff teams, a second round exit = the number of non playoff teams + first round teams, etc. This is hardly thorough analysis, but it should nevertheless be a good suggester of trends (and a good barometer of success that can be ascertained by a casual fan). I’m going to do this by decade (minimum 2000 minutes, including 2020 in the teens, and I only have ‘78 and ‘79 from the 70s, and the 10-11 range would be completely average in a 30-team league):

70s: 9.1% of teams, 8.50 Superiority Rating, 0/4 Rings (0%)
80s: 10.8% of teams, 9.96 Superiority Rating, 0/25 Rings (0%), 100% rings no HV Scorer

So. From ‘78 to ‘89 teams with 30%+ usage scorers actually performed a little below average for the league. Of the 29 player-seasons in that timeframe they won zero rings. It’s not a huge sample size, but still. It’s pretty clear that no right-thinking individual circa 1990 would think “Man, without a high-volume scorer / #1 option you just can’t win a championship”. In fact, it would be totally intuitive to think the contrary. Now for the 90s:

90s: 9.0% of teams, 19.92 Superiority Rating, 7/25 Rings (28%), 30% rings no HV Scorer

Okay, well, we know that Jordan is seven of these twenty-five player-seasons, and Jordan’s teams did pretty well. Even still, it’s notable that 28% of the high-volume players won rings, and the Superiority Ratings averaged closer to a first-round exit (14 points in a 30-team league) than a SemiFinals exist (22 points in a 30-team league). But, interestingly, the 90s seemed to have even less high volume scorers per team than the 80s.

00s: 22.0% of teams, 16.08 Superiority Rating, 7/65 Rings (11%), 50% rings no HV Scorer

Okay, Jordan’s out of the picture, but the number of high-volume scorers per team has more than doubled. The 16.08 Superiority Rating is a little better than a first-round exit (not by a ton), but the average team posts around 10-11 points, so having a high-volume scorer is clearly an asset. Only 11% of high-volume scorers won rings, but half of championship-winning teams didn’t need a high-volume scorer.

10s: 23.9% of teams, 17.72 Superiority Rating, 8/79 Rings (10%), 27% rings no HV Scorer

The number of high-volume scorers has gone up, as has their success (though not as high as it went in Jordan’s era), it has become increasingly rare for championship-winning teams not to have a high-volume scorer. About 10% of high-volume scoring-seasons end in rings.

Let’s look at the estimated odds-shift (the expected odds are +0%) for teams with and without High Volume scorers (-50% means that the odds go down 50%, +100% mean that the odds double):

80s: HV Scorer = -100%, No HV Scorer = +12%
90s: HV Scorer = +678%, No HV Scorer = -56%
00s: HV Scorer = +127%, No HV Scorer = -36%
10s: HV Scorer = +205%, No HV Scorer = -65%

So post-Jordan, having a high-volume scorer means that your odds of winning are somewhere between doubling and tripling, while not having a high-volume scorer means that your odds drop by about half.

In other words, since about 1990, a high-volume scorer like Jordan is almost exactly what you want for winning a championship (not that you need it, but it certainly helps), but before 1990 it’s almost antithetical to winning. So what to us is obvious (that Jordan was *going* to win because he’s the best Alpha scorer in a league where Alpha scorers are a huge asset) is almost purely after-the-fact bias. Because the league only became that way *after* Jordan. Nobody in 1990 would have any reason to think in this way.

So . . . why?

I mean, why did all of this happen? Was it just that Jordan transformed the league and everyone started imitating him (both players and teams)?

I don’t think that holds water for the larger trend (though there was unquestionably some such imitation).

Was it rule changes? Everybody knows that the release of tighter defensive rules in the aughts opened up the effectiveness of wing scorers.

But I don’t really buy that either, since high-volume scorers had a pretty reasonable amount of success before that time (Hakeem, Shaq and Kobe leap to mind). The aughts show pretty comparable *numbers* of high volume scorers, though the teens certainly show them as being more valuable (then again, LeBron emerging is kind of a big deal just as Jordan emerging was in the 90s).

So I think imitation is a part of it. And I think that rules may have played a role. But my best guess?

The salary cap.

The cap rolled out in ‘85, but it took a while for the NBA to adjust. Before that, loading up on players was totally doable if you were winning. If you’re the Russell Celtics you can absolutely keep Sam Jones on the bench for several years behind Bill Sharman. If you’re the 80s Celtics you can absolutely keep McHale on the bench behind Cedric Maxwell for several years. If you’re the 80s Lakers you can absolutely have Kareem, Magic *and* Jamaal Wilkes, *and* Norm Nixon *and* Bob McAdoo *and* Michael Cooper. If you’re the ‘83 Sixers you can field a team with Dr. J, Andrew Toney, Maurice Cheeks, Bobby Jones *and* Moses Malone.

Winning teams before 1990 or so simply didn’t need a high-volume scorer, because they almost certainly already had enough quality players to reduce the lead-scorer’s burden below the 30% threshold. But as the salary cap increasingly made it difficult to assemble lots of strong scorers on the same team (with some obvious exceptions) it meant that teams had to find a way to win with teams that had multiple weak links on the scoring side of things. And in such a scenario, a player who could take a lot of his team’s shots without sacrificing too much efficiency became increasingly valuable. Making a team work with Rick Fox, Derek Fisher and old Horace Grant? In the early 80s that just meant that you were probably done-zo. None of those guys can take many shots efficiently, and you’re going to have a hard time competing with the teams that have 4+ solid scorers. But in the salary cap era you’re going to have to figure it out. Suddenly, a Shaq or a Kobe (or both) can go a long way to making that offense function. In a weird way the Bad Boy Pistons were the precursors to this whole pattern (even if they didn’t have any 30+% scorers) by mixing and matching high-ish volume scorers (Isiah, Vinnie Johnson, Adrian Dantley, Mark Aguirre) with low-usage specialists (Rodman, John Salley, Rick Mahorn). The Spurs consistently cheated this pattern, by having both an ATG jack of all trades big and developing an extremely team-centric approach that integrated lots of skilled players. They (especially later) are weirdly the ideal 70s/80s team; consistent success, lots of team execution and rarely a 30%+ usage scorer.

Anyhow. I’ve wandered far afield here. And I’ll absolutely admit that a lot of this is speculative.

But I got really curious about why Jordan’s teams were so consistently underrated.

And perhaps this gets back to that running thread about Jordan vs LeBron vis a vis their preseason rankings. Because the OP there had a point: there was *absolutely* a lesson there. We just disagree about what it was.

My thesis about the whole thing is that before 1991 a high-volume scorer leading a team of limited scoring ability to a title was simply a non-starter (minus Rick Barry and the ‘75 Warriors). So when oddsmakers were estimating how good the Jordan Bulls would be, they were doing it with that in mind. They were wrong, but only because the paradigm for what made a successful team had changed with the salary cap (so I speculate) and they hadn’t realized it yet. So Jordan’s teams pre-1992 were pretty consistently underrated.

Fast forward to LeBron James’ career. Was Vegas looking at young LeBron and going “A high-volume scorer from the wing? That’s not winning basketball.” Hell no they weren’t! They had just seen three teams post three threepeats in a 12-year stretch, and all nine rosters had a ball-dominant high-volume scoring wing.

With LeBron, their response was, “We’ve seen something like this before and it totally worked.”

With Jordan, their response was, “We’ve seen things kind of like this before, and it never worked.”

This is the basketball world we live in: where the salary cap makes having a high-volume scorer valuable enough to mean that they can be a critical part to winning a championship even if their scoring is by far the best part of their game. It is a complete paradigm shift from how basketball was before 1990.

And Jordan was the crest of that wave, the harbinger, the one whose coming made clear that we were watching the dawning of a new era. He is hardly unique in being a ball-dominant high-volume scoring wing (even if he was the best of them) but he was the first in this era. And it completely changed everything.

You know that really old (and totally underrated) chess movie “In Search of Bobby Fischer”? Check it out, you’re looking at Ben Kingsley, Lawrence Fishbourne and Joan Allen, it’s a great cast. Anyhow, the basic narrative thesis of the movie is that once upon a time the Russians completely dominated chess. And the style of play was reasonably consistent (specifically erring on the cautious and defensive side). And out of nowhere comes this American kid, Bobby Fischer, who changes *everything*. He didn’t come from any grand tradition or anything; he simply had amazing instincts for the game and was unconcerned with the idea that he was trying to win with strategies that were simply not used. He went out there, played as himself, and absolutely wrecked *everyone*. His success redefined everything from who could be good at chess to how to be good at chess. And his ELO score dwarfed every prior champion; he dominated his era as few ever would. (There are a lot of other interesting comparisons between the two, like how both struggled with a lot of anxiety about their role as an icon in their sport (even if they manifested it in totally different ways) and both of them left a lot of their career on the table by retiring early multiple times.)

Anyhow, the movie is about how Fisher was such a game-changer that great chess teachers (in America anyways) are, on some level, not trying to create the next great player so much as trying to find/create the next Bobby Fischer.

So when you get players that on paper are like Jordan but play differently (like LeBron passing out of big shots to open players) there is often a visceral recoiling. It’s not because passing to open players is bad, it’s because *it’s not what Jordan would have done* (or what he is reputed to have done). When a player scores a lot, is associated with winning and (ideally) has at least one big clutch shot, there is an instinctive urge to celebrate this player whether or not it’s entirely appropriate (Kyrie Irving leaps to mind). And it’s not necessarily because that player is actually great, but instead because he’s doing things that *remind us* of Jordan.

On a subconscious level, a huge number of NBA fans are in their own quest, searching for Michael Jordan. It’s perhaps a credit to his career and singular heights that in many ways he has become the embodiment of greatness. And it’s a big part of why so many people react with revulsion to the idea of *anyone* else being considered the GOAT. It isn’t because Jordan’s *value* can’t be eclipsed; it’s because, in their mind, Jordan *is* what it means to be great. In a weird way, their ability to actually weigh player value has been broken by how great Jordan was.

And it leads to a lot of dodgy analysis. Consider the following player: guard, high 20s usage, efficient scoring, led his team in assists per 100 many years, was an outstanding rebounder for his position, was a very athletic defender and definitely added value on that end, but in the playoffs his scoring tended to drop off.

Think about that player in a pre-Jordan context.

He sounds great. Actually, he sounds like Bird (totally different style of play from Bird, but the statistical footprint is similar even if Bird was better in pretty much every way). There is *nothing* about that description that doesn’t sound like an excellent pre-Jordan player on a championship team (certainly not Top 25 all-time, but you could absolutely win championships with him). The lack of playoff-resilient scoring isn’t ideal but plenty of guys had success without a resilient scoring game in the playoffs (again, Bird leaps to mind).

But put him in a post-Jordan world and he falls way short. His volume is too low, his scoring isn’t resilient enough, and who cares about the other things he does to add value? If you’re dependent on that guy being your #1 option (the reasoning goes) you have no real chance of winning a title. And it doesn’t help that in the ‘92 Finals we literally saw the contrast play out.

But Clyde Drexler catches a pretty tough break historically. Value-wise, he’s clearly a really good player. But a lot of people think ill of him because he was *like* Jordan in many ways, but *clearly* worse. Falling short of Jordan is the ultimate sin, because with Jordan and Greatness so intertwined, Drexler falling short of that ideal so nakedly is something that few can forgive him for. And there’s a reason why the biggest slams on Garnett are basically the three Jordan tests: 1) did he win, 2) was he a playoff-resilient high-volume first option and 3) did he make any big clutch shots? Garnett’s defense and other contributions simply don’t enter into it. Jordanliness is next to Godliness; that Garnett was so unlike Jordan means he is disqualified from any serious ‘greatness’ conversation for many fans.

This is the post-Jordan world. For better for worse.


There are peaks, and then there are PEAKS. Few players have revolutionised the game. Mikan and Wilt, were dominant in their own ways, forcing the league to widen the lane, then widen it again.

Steph Curry has shot the 3 ball with such volume and accuracy that kids growing up these days are splashing away. And then between those 2, there were a couple of guys named Mike and Shaq. Shaq was a giant who forced teams to send him to the line as it was better than letting him get an easy dunk. As for Mike, I highly recommend everyone read Sansterre’s words in the spoiler above. He revolutionised the game by expecting the #1 option to be a volume scorer, and Kobe spent his entire career trying to emulate Mike.

Now, onto stats. MJ has plenty of them. RS: 32 pp75 on +7.1% rTS. The team rOrtg was a +6.7. Defensively, the Bulls were a -2.7 rDrtg. And while Jordan was arguably better defensively in the late 80’s, he was still rather competent in ‘91.

In the PS: MJ was at 31.4 pp75, and +6.6 rTS% (to RS averages). He faced Knicks (12th best defence), Sixers (16), Pistons (4th), Lakers (5th). The Bulls had a +6.3 rOrtg and -6.9 rDrtg.

Onto the finals vs. Magic and the Lakers. I’ll copy an excerpt from Sansterre again.

Did you know that only two players ever have posted two 20+ BPM games in the same Finals series?

The first is LeBron James in 2016. His games in order:

+12.0, +9.3, +7.6, +9.6, +21.5, +23.5, +11.5

The other player, appropriately, is Jordan in 1991. His games in order:

+20.8, +26.6, +11.1, +17.0, +8.3

Here are those two series, adjusted for pace (to 100 possessions) and for opponent regular season shooting defense:

2016 LeBron: 32.3 points on +4.2% shooting, 12.3 Reb, 9.7 Ast, 4.8 TO, 2.8 Stl, 2.5 Blk
1991 Jordan: 36.4 points on +10.2% shooting, 7.7 Reb, 13.3 Ast, 4.2 TO, 3.3 Stl, 1.6 Blk


So that’s why Jordan should have gone #1, let alone #3.

#3 Michael Jordan (1991 > 1990 > 1989) reasons above. +6.52 OPIPM, +1.68 DPIPM. +8.21 PIPM. 24.12 Wins

#4 Shaquille O’Neal (2000 > 2001 > 2002). Shaq revolutionised the game, forcing teams to hack-a-Shaq just to deal with his extreme presence in the paint. 28.6 pp75, +5.5 rTS%. Slight volume reduction in playoffs, and 2% TS drop. Team rOrtg +3.2. Regular season Lakers were the league leading defense. Shaq was a force protecting the rim. +5.13 OPIPM, +2.03 DPIPM. +7.16 PIPM. 25.74 Wins Added. 28.6 pp75, +5.5 rTS%. Slight volume reduction in playoffs, and 2% TS drop. Team rOrtg +3.2. Regular season Lakers were the league leading defense. Shaq was a force protecting the rim. +5.13 OPIPM, +2.03 DPIPM. +7.16 PIPM. 25.74 Wins Added.

#5 Steph Curry (2017 > 2016 > 2015). I was going to put Hakeem, then Duncan, but I can’t talk about players revolutionising the game, and not put Curry in the same grouping. All 3 of my votes go to players whose impact goes beyond the 48 minutes on the parquet. Curry has stretched defences to the brink in the opposite manner to Shaq, and one could argue his gravity is even more effective as it enables the paint to be open for offensive rebounds and cutters. 27.4 pp75, +7.1 rTS%. Team rOrtg of +6.8. Top 6 playmaker. Playoffs; 28.5, +10.6%. But all of that means nothing. Teams were leaving Kevin Durant wide open because they were worried about Stephen Curry (6.3% wide open shots in 2016 vs 12.2% wide open shots in 2017 playoffs for KD). That is the definition of gravity. +8.21 OPIPM, +0.11 DPIPM, +8.32 PIPM. 21.6 Wins Added.

Yes, the 2017 Warriors were probably the greatest team of all time. They were a +7.7 rOrtg and -5.8 dRtg in the playoffs. The reason great teams are great, is usually because they have a transcendent talent on the roster. Curry transcended basketball, like Shaq and MJ before him.
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Re: RealGM 2025 Greatest Peaks Project #3 

Post#17 » by trelos6 » Today 10:28 am

Joao Saraiva wrote:I'm not in the project but as a guy who has Hakeem #1 I'm surprised both he and MJ are not in yet. Also I disagree a lot with LBJ 13 as his own peak and take his playoff run as definitely not one of his greatest.

Too late to be in the project or can I still apply for voting?


Never too late Joao. Maybe ask in the overarching thread and you’ll be able to contribute from #4 onwards.
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Re: RealGM 2025 Greatest Peaks Project #3 

Post#18 » by Elpolo_14 » Today 12:50 pm

One_and_Done wrote:Not sure about vote #3 yet. We'll see who gets traction.


Do you not have a basic guidelines list to pick and choose player around the same range to rank them?

Right now who would you incline to Vote at the 3 spot more?
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Re: RealGM 2025 Greatest Peaks Project #3 

Post#19 » by tsherkin » Today 1:12 pm

Voting Post

Reiterating my post for earlier spots and try to get more involved in the conversation. We've seen Lebron and Kareem go so far, but I still think these guys should be in the running.

The root idea here is that I think Russell's defensive impact is unprecedented stuff and that the dominance Boston exerted there with fairly weak offense (indeed, the WORST offense in the 64 regular season, among the 9 teams) is quite impressive to me. They killed the boards, they crushed it on D and they were really, really unremarkable on O. But it worked. Even if that strategy doesn't really work in the post-Russell eras, it did at the time, and that's vaguely insane. I feel like Jokic's inclusion is reasonably clear, even if one disagrees. That 2023 season was wild. With Magic, he was leading best-in-league-history kind of offenses and still crushing it with Old Kareem and without him. If not for the HIV situation, I feel like the first half of the 90s would have been very, very different, particularly as he developed his shot and his post game and was just putting people on an island and murdering them.

Obviously, decent amount of subjectivity involved in any of these things. The other nominees, guys like Duncan and Jordan and so forth, I can certainly see arguments for them (and there are some well-articulated defenses of their candidacy), but I wanted to generate some discussion about Russell's defensive impact and non-scorers, and then efficient-scoring playmakers and such.

Player #1: Bill Russell 1964

Best defense we've ever seen. Led the league in rebounding in the RS and then again in the PS (and went from like 25 to 27 rpg). Captained the team to a title with his dominant performance, after leading his team to the best record in the RS. We've never seen anything like Russell's era-relative impact defensively, nor anything like his team dominance. I don't subscribe to the idea that we should ignore earlier eras due to the differences between then and now, and Russell's run is the most dominant in league history, authored on the back of what he did as a rebounder and defender (and passer, at that).

Player #2: Magic Johnson 1990

Not quite Magic's scoring peak, but on top of his usual, he was bombing 3s, crushing it at the line, was a dominant playmaker, fully matured in his post game. One of his MVP seasons, and well-earned. An absolute unit leading another insane offense in his first season without Kareem.


Player #3: Nikola Jokic 2023

The wildest offensive RS we've ever seen, IMHO. A 25/12/10 season on 70% TS that turned into 30/14/10 still on 63% TS en route to a title and Finals MVP. Should have been the MVP. An insane mix of post game, shooting ability, court vision, rebounding and so forth.

HM: 2000 Shaq, 91 Jordan, 2016 Steph, 03 Duncan.
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Re: RealGM 2025 Greatest Peaks Project #3 

Post#20 » by homecourtloss » Today 4:30 pm

1. Duncan, 2003

Who was on this team creating this type of team? Duncan’s plus offense and GOAT level defense lifted a team to immense heights. I cannot think of very many scenarios in which this player wouldn't have the same results—1960s, 1970s, 1980s, 1990s, 2000s (proven), 2010s (proven), space and pace era, etc. Immense lift on both sides of the ball especially the playoffs. great regular and post season in which he shouldered a heavy load and didn’t falter. Impact metrics look great, especially in the playoffs. Defense is replicable in many different eras while his offense was continuously resilient throughout the playoffs. If we’re doing a “Veil of Ignorance” type simulation, I feel very comfortable with this version of Duncan being capable of providing championship impact.

Playoffs:

+3.8 rORtg on, -14.2 rORtg off (offense strong enough with him on, absolutely nothing with him off)
-9.7 rDRtg on, +8.9 rDRtg off (defense incredibly strong with him on, garbage with him off)


2. 1991 Jordan (1990 > 1989) Contention for GOAT season. Jordan’s playmaking abilities and offensive awareness grew while his athleticism remained. TOV economy was incredible

Playoffs Per @Djoker:

+13.3 rORtg on, -1.6 rORtg off (GOAT level offense with him on, weak offense with him off)
-4.6 rDRtg on, -7.6 rDRtg off (very strong defense with him on, even stronger with him off)

3. Shaq, 2000

Debated 1994 Hakeem, 1967 Wilt, KG here. The gravity at the rim, plus defense, high minutes played, only short coming is FT shooting.

Playoffs:

+8.8 rORtg on, -5.1 rORtg off (very strong offense on, very weak offense with him off)
-1.2 rDRtg on, +9 rDRtg off (solid even defense with him on, terrible with him off)
lessthanjake wrote:Kyrie was extremely impactful without LeBron, and basically had zero impact whatsoever if LeBron was on the court.

lessthanjake wrote: By playing in a way that prevents Kyrie from getting much impact, LeBron ensures that controlling for Kyrie has limited effect…

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