Kuminga sign and trade Bulls interest

[coldfish]

OK, I'll go out on a limb here.

First off, Okuro is a low end JAG. He is a big nothing burger. He is fine as a rotation player but you really don't want him in your top 6 or so. Having him should have nothing to do with Kuminga.

Kuminga had a down year last year. Here is his per 36 numbers the previous year at age 21:
21.9p 6.6r 3.0a 59.8%ts

You know what? I'll take that for $25m per year. I would even give up a protected first for him.

Giddey / Jones or Ayo
Coby / Huerter
Kuminga / Okuro
Matas / Noa
????

The Bulls would be starting to get big while maintaining some athleticism. The C spot is the big question mark.

[League Circles]

OK, I'll go out on a limb here.

First off, Okuro is a low end JAG. He is a big nothing burger. He is fine as a rotation player but you really don't want him in your top 6 or so. Having him should have nothing to do with Kuminga.

Kuminga had a down year last year. Here is his per 36 numbers the previous year at age 21:
21.9p 6.6r 3.0a 59.8%ts

You know what? I'll take that for $25m per year. I would even give up a protected first for him.

Giddey / Jones or Ayo
Coby / Huerter
Kuminga / Okuro
Matas / Noa
????

The Bulls would be starting to get big while maintaining some athleticism. The C spot is the big question mark.

I certainly haven't watched them enough to know, but my understanding is that Okoro is way, way better than Kuminga defensively. To the extent that he may be a better player, at least in a supporting role. We need defense more than offense, especially on the wing.

[coldfish]

OK, I'll go out on a limb here.

First off, Okuro is a low end JAG. He is a big nothing burger. He is fine as a rotation player but you really don't want him in your top 6 or so. Having him should have nothing to do with Kuminga.

Kuminga had a down year last year. Here is his per 36 numbers the previous year at age 21:
21.9p 6.6r 3.0a 59.8%ts

You know what? I'll take that for $25m per year. I would even give up a protected first for him.

Giddey / Jones or Ayo
Coby / Huerter
Kuminga / Okuro
Matas / Noa
????

The Bulls would be starting to get big while maintaining some athleticism. The C spot is the big question mark.

I certainly haven't watched them enough to know, but my understanding is that Okoro is way, way better than Kuminga defensively. To the extent that he may be a better player, at least in a supporting role. We need defense more than offense, especially on the wing.

Okuro's defensive ability has gotten way overstated. He isn't some lockdown guy. Cleveland explicitly got Hunter as a defensive upgrade beyond being an overall upgrade. Okuro is fine, don't get me wrong but he isn't Caruso. On offense he is basically Bogans reborn.

I really can't overstate this. Cleveland looks at Okuro much in the same vein that we look at Patrick Williams.

[League Circles]

My speculation is that any interest the Bulls might have had in Kuminga started and ended with the goal of unloading Patrick Williams' contract.

[sco]

OK, I'll go out on a limb here.

First off, Okuro is a low end JAG. He is a big nothing burger. He is fine as a rotation player but you really don't want him in your top 6 or so. Having him should have nothing to do with Kuminga.

Kuminga had a down year last year. Here is his per 36 numbers the previous year at age 21:
21.9p 6.6r 3.0a 59.8%ts

You know what? I'll take that for $25m per year. I would even give up a protected first for him.

Giddey / Jones or Ayo
Coby / Huerter
Kuminga / Okuro
Matas / Noa
????

The Bulls would be starting to get big while maintaining some athleticism. The C spot is the big question mark.

I certainly haven't watched them enough to know, but my understanding is that Okoro is way, way better than Kuminga defensively. To the extent that he may be a better player, at least in a supporting role. We need defense more than offense, especially on the wing.

I think we apply labels like JAG because it's easy, but the truth is that offense tends to get more highly valued than defense. If Okoro gives us very good defense and makes 3's at around league average on 5 shots a game, that's a valuable "JAG".

That said, I'm no Kuminga fan because he seems limited defensively and 3pt shooting, but I see the value for a team like us (without a legit #1 option) taking a shot to get one on a team friendly deal.

[coldfish]

I spent a few minutes watching some Kuminga analysis on defense. He isn't bad. Actually moderately good off ball. Probably a better team defender than individual defender.

[ChiTownHero1992]

If it meant Kuminga over Vucevic, Okoro or Williams i'd be happy with that, if its Kuminga over Coby, Giddey, etc then i'm not really interested in that

[dougthonus]

OK, I'll go out on a limb here.

First off, Okuro is a low end JAG. He is a big nothing burger. He is fine as a rotation player but you really don't want him in your top 6 or so. Having him should have nothing to do with Kuminga.

Kuminga had a down year last year. Here is his per 36 numbers the previous year at age 21:
21.9p 6.6r 3.0a 59.8%ts

You know what? I'll take that for $25m per year. I would even give up a protected first for him.

Giddey / Jones or Ayo
Coby / Huerter
Kuminga / Okuro
Matas / Noa
????

The Bulls would be starting to get big while maintaining some athleticism. The C spot is the big question mark.

If we had Vuc, Giddey, and Kuminga, we might have three of the top 5 starters on the "This guy is excels primarily in counting stats and needs highly specific unicorns around them" 1st team.

Bare in mind that GS, which desperately needed even rotation players with more or less no way to get them completely soured on this guy and would rather let him go than seriously negotiate with him.

[Red Larrivee]

Okuro's defensive ability has gotten way overstated. He isn't some lockdown guy. Cleveland explicitly got Hunter as a defensive upgrade beyond being an overall upgrade. Okuro is fine, don't get me wrong but he isn't Caruso. On offense he is basically Bogans reborn.

I really can't overstate this. Cleveland looks at Okuro much in the same vein that we look at Patrick Williams.

I know defensive #s aren't everything, but Okoro is 84th percentile in 3Y RAPM on defense. Not as good as Caruso (99) or Ball (93), but obviously still really good.

If Okoro is Bogans, except younger, a lot more athletic, and a lot more impactful defensively, then I'd take that over Kuminga given contract and fit. At least with Okoro there's a clear path for him to impact the team positively. We don't need him to be a volume scorer, and he fits with the playing style that turned the team around towards the end of the season.

Kuminga doesn't. He's a player who you're going to have to slow things down for so he can get his. And does that really make anyone better? At least with Giddey you know that his ball handling generates looks for other players.

[kodo]

OK, I'll go out on a limb here.

First off, Okuro is a low end JAG. He is a big nothing burger. He is fine as a rotation player but you really don't want him in your top 6 or so. Having him should have nothing to do with Kuminga.

Kuminga had a down year last year. Here is his per 36 numbers the previous year at age 21:
21.9p 6.6r 3.0a 59.8%ts

You know what? I'll take that for $25m per year. I would even give up a protected first for him.

Giddey / Jones or Ayo
Coby / Huerter
Kuminga / Okuro
Matas / Noa
????

The Bulls would be starting to get big while maintaining some athleticism. The C spot is the big question mark.

If we had Vuc, Giddey, and Kuminga, we might have three of the top 5 starters on the "This guy is excels primarily in counting stats and needs highly specific unicorns around them" 1st team.

Bare in mind that GS, which desperately needed even rotation players with more or less no way to get them completely soured on this guy and would rather let him go than seriously negotiate with him.

At $25M that's what a team should expect.

MLE/$15M = can't put up any stats (Okoro, DFS, etc.). So the market on this level of player is skewed towards ones that at least have high impact metrics, like Okoro or DFS.

$25M-$35M = puts up stats but haven't delivered Ws
$25M = Rozier, Claxton, Collins, Miles Bridges, etc.
$30M = McCollum, Dejounte, Poole, Quickley, etc.

Max $45M-$75M = puts up stats & have delivered Ws (in theory, plenty of players like Lamelo, Barnes, Ingram who haven't delivered Ws either)

If Kuminga is actually expecting $25M, it's not out of line for what he's done which is just put up #s. The Bulls have about $130M of contracts that don't delivered many Ws so I wouldn't care too much about just swapping deck chairs on the Titanic. I guess there's some small chance of Kuminga turning into a winning player, while we know guys like Vuc are going to decline and have close to 0% hope in someone who fundamentally can't proces real-time basketball like Patrick.

[MrSparkle]

One thing to consider is that this team is nowhere within reach of a 2-3Y contention window unless one of these things happens:

1. 2-3 of these guys become all-star, undisputed max-contract players: Giddey, Matas, Coby, Noa. Was there any doubt that Pascal or Haliburton weren’t max players? No. Unlikely scenario.

2. Bulls sign (or S&T) for Giannis or Jokic. Since Lakers (and perhaps Nets) have entered the 2027 FA picture, I find it very unlikely (on top of the strong chance they stay home).

So if you’re signing talent, they’re a stop-gap gamble. Looking at it more as trade ammo. Of course AK talks like this farm has championship hopes, which makes no sense if you look at the advanced stats and trajectories. Lala Land to think Coby, Matas and Giddey project like any of our last 10 finals teams. Even Pascal and Hali smoke them, strictly in numbers. Even the swept 8-seed (Bam and Herro), though that’s atleast a conversation, IF the Bulls core improves.

Is Kuminga going to sign a cheap enough contract AND play well enough to make him a strong trade asset? Like a Mikal or OG? These guys netted great returns. Problem is when a guy plays remotely well, this FO waits until their 4Y contract expires and then they make a limp asset-less trade. But if Kuminga has a higher ceiling in this dead cap market, then you evaluate his tradeability against his cost. Picking up cheap busts like Okoro just seems like an unrelated strategy. We’ll see, but I’m ultra skeptical of an $11m roleplayer dumped by a 1-seed. That is a bargain if the guy was actually an elite defender, and apparently before the Lonzo trade, they couldn’t find any takers.

Kuminga seems like a bust, but he is talented and there’s a small chance the Warriors did hold him back. Red flag that he couldn’t earn a role though. Don’t really buy Kerr’s excuse that he duplicated Jimmy’s position.

[coldfish]

OK, I'll go out on a limb here.

First off, Okuro is a low end JAG. He is a big nothing burger. He is fine as a rotation player but you really don't want him in your top 6 or so. Having him should have nothing to do with Kuminga.

Kuminga had a down year last year. Here is his per 36 numbers the previous year at age 21:
21.9p 6.6r 3.0a 59.8%ts

You know what? I'll take that for $25m per year. I would even give up a protected first for him.

Giddey / Jones or Ayo
Coby / Huerter
Kuminga / Okuro
Matas / Noa
????

The Bulls would be starting to get big while maintaining some athleticism. The C spot is the big question mark.

If we had Vuc, Giddey, and Kuminga, we might have three of the top 5 starters on the "This guy is excels primarily in counting stats and needs highly specific unicorns around them" 1st team.

Bare in mind that GS, which desperately needed even rotation players with more or less no way to get them completely soured on this guy and would rather let him go than seriously negotiate with him.

Correct me if I am wrong but as a lux tax repeater, it would cost GS about $90m per year to retain Kuminga at $25m per year. I certainly understand not wanting to do that.

[dougthonus]

At $25M that's what a team should expect.

MLE/$15M = can't put up any stats (Okoro, DFS, etc.). So the market on this level of player is skewed towards ones that at least have high impact metrics, like Okoro or DFS.

$25M-$35M = puts up stats but haven't delivered Ws
$25M = Rozier, Claxton, Collins, Miles Bridges, etc.
$30M = McCollum, Dejounte, Poole, Quickley, etc.

Max $45M-$75M = puts up stats & have delivered Ws (in theory, plenty of players like Lamelo, Barnes, Ingram who haven't delivered Ws either)

If Kuminga is actually expecting $25M, it's not out of line for what he's done which is just put up #s. The Bulls have about $130M of contracts that don't delivered many Ws so I wouldn't care too much about just swapping deck chairs on the Titanic. I guess there's some small chance of Kuminga turning into a winning player, while we know guys like Vuc are going to decline and have close to 0% hope in someone who fundamentally can't proces real-time basketball like Patrick.

FWIW, I think that's true. I just don't want my team entering the beginning of a rebuild to commit to highly flawed players as its foundation and then hope to figure out some magic later. Especially if we're looking at committing to multiple of them and the two of them don't fit together (such as Giddey and Kuminga).

[kodo]

Correct me if I am wrong but as a lux tax repeater, it would cost GS about $90m per year to retain Kuminga at $25m per year. I certainly understand not wanting to do that.

And GS did want him long term before the Butler trade. They offered him $30M per year x 5 years before the trade, they really moved on when they couldn't come to terms for him with that much and found a better replacement in Butler.

As coach Steve Kerr admitted in April, “The lineup with Jimmy, Jonathan and Draymond doesn’t fit real well, frankly. It just doesn’t. We need more spacing.”.

It would be incorrect to categorize Kuminga as someone they never thought was good enough to play with them long term.

[dougthonus]

Correct me if I am wrong but as a lux tax repeater, it would cost GS about $90m per year to retain Kuminga at $25m per year. I certainly understand not wanting to do that.

That's sort of complicated, based on a lot of things, depending where there total roster lands. If they thought Kuminga was a really good player with upside, do you think they would let him go at any price? Particularly if they got him on a "value" contract?

They seem willing to S&T him which likely also adds a a ton of money except that it will likely be dead salary for what will likely be a mediocre 1st round pick if they could even find it. The cost of Kuminga would also only be very high for two years or so then Jimmy/Steph are off the books depending what they do after that.

Not saying it isn't a factor, but based on GS's moves in the past and general thought about maximizing everything around Steph, I find it much more likely than not that if they liked Kuminga they'd just keep him.

[dougthonus]

Correct me if I am wrong but as a lux tax repeater, it would cost GS about $90m per year to retain Kuminga at $25m per year. I certainly understand not wanting to do that.

And GS did want him long term before the Butler trade. They offered him $30M per year x 5 years before the trade, they really moved on when they couldn't come to terms for him with that much and found a better replacement in Butler.

As coach Steve Kerr admitted in April, “The lineup with Jimmy, Jonathan and Draymond doesn’t fit real well, frankly. It just doesn’t. We need more spacing.”.

It would be incorrect to categorize Kuminga as someone they never thought was good enough to play with them long term.

I agree that at one point they were interested in Kuminga. Then another year of information came, and they weren't, but Kerr's quote is pretty relevant to us as well. How is a lineup of Kuminga + Giddey going to work? Two guys who both need the ball to be effective and provide no spacing for each other?

[nomorezorro]

the whole dynamic with kuminga in GS is that their owner loves him and is still stuck on the notion that he will be a guy who makes their whole Two Timelines thing pan out, while steve kerr has determined that he is basically incompatible with the actual way they play basketball. kerr has openly begged kuminga to find some way to contribute to the team other than scoring the ball less effectively than stephen curry, and in four years he's been unable to do so

i am fairly certain he would have been traded by now if the actual basketball minds there were the sole decision makers.

[Senor Chang]

Acquiring Kuminga would be committing the same mistake we made when we brought Derozen here to play next to zach. It might even be worse since zach can at least play a little off the ball and can be an elite shooter when healthy.

it would be nice to acquire a young talent without giving up much however if/when giddy and kuminga showed themselves as incompatible with each other then knowing AKME we would be stuck with kuminga until his trade value bottomed out. Which could be years. Id rather tank a season than bring in guys who don’t play winning basketball.

If you can’t fit with steph curry then who CAN you fit with?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[kulaz3000]

Acquiring Kuminga would be committing the same mistake we made when we brought Derozen here to play next to zach. It might even be worse since zach can at least play a little off the ball and can be an elite shooter when healthy.

it would be nice to acquire a young talent without giving up much however if/when giddy and kuminga showed themselves as incompatible with each other then knowing AKME we would be stuck with kuminga until his trade value bottomed out. Which could be years. Id rather tank a season than bring in guys who don’t play winning basketball.

If you can’t fit with steph curry then who CAN you fit with?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Not that I'm big on acquiring Kuminga, but would it be similar to signing DeRrozan? He was already an established ball dominate All-Star, with a lacking 3 point shot.

At the same point in their career, Kuminga is a better player than DeRozan was at year 4, with Kuminga being a year younger. He had a down efficiency season last season, but for most of his career, he has been a really efficient offensive player. If you acquire him, you are getting a YOUNG player, and hope that he fulfills his potential. A stark difference from when we acquired DeRozan, where he was already established, and hoping that his veteran presence and production would help take the Bulls to another level.

To me getting Kuminga hinges on the number on his potential contract, if we get both Giddey and Kuminga at 25 per piece, I just could not be upset at it. We would be signing two 22 year old's to moderately large, but absolutely far from max deals and banking on their youth and potential to fulfill their promise. Hell, even if they level out, they'd still be young enough and on decent enough contracts to be moved.

I'd much prefer taking a chance at young players, and approach this new phase of the Bulls as an asset building period and see which players faulter and which players rise to the occasion and continue to chop and adjust the roster accordingly. Despite Noa having potential, he is far from ready to produce consistently on the NBA level. And Mata's time won't be diminished with Kuminga on the roster either, as they could easily player together on the front court and be an absolute nightmare for the defense on the break.

Again, there is an intriguing element despite Kuminga's obvious flaws as a player, but at 22 years old, there are going to be flaws in a basketball player. By all accounts, he is a hard worker, and yeah, he is absolutely a black hole right now (he reminds me a lot of Maggette), but I think it's his basketball IQ that needs to be worked on, not his talents and worth ethic. But again, you're talking about a 22 year old, and for his age, he is already ahead of the curb but clearly needs some refining.

All that to say, I'm not super enthusiastic about adding Kuminga, but I wouldn't hate on it if it were to happen because it would align with this new path the Bulls are finally taking.

[Jvaughn]

OK, I'll go out on a limb here.

First off, Okuro is a low end JAG. He is a big nothing burger. He is fine as a rotation player but you really don't want him in your top 6 or so. Having him should have nothing to do with Kuminga.

Kuminga had a down year last year. Here is his per 36 numbers the previous year at age 21:
21.9p 6.6r 3.0a 59.8%ts

You know what? I'll take that for $25m per year. I would even give up a protected first for him.

Giddey / Jones or Ayo
Coby / Huerter
Kuminga / Okuro
Matas / Noa
????

The Bulls would be starting to get big while maintaining some athleticism. The C spot is the big question mark.

This is where I'm at with it as well. Until we can prove we're a good enough FA draw to attract the big name established players, the name of the game should be stacking talent. We could do a lot worse than a young athlete who can create his own shot for 20+ a night. My only caveat is that I wouldn't do it unless we already have Giddey. Kuminga at $20-30 million isn't going to be an untradable albatross.