Name 1 player that's not an all-star or all nba that makes us a contender

[tsherkin]

You should change your title to ask which non all star player takes us to the next level not a contender.

That would be a more manageable concept, for sure. As it stands, the answer to the OP is just "no one."

[oldncreaky]

For me it's not about roster balance. It is about top end talent. It's almost impossible to be a contender without an MVP-level player or multiple All-NBA & All-Star level players on the roster. You're not finding an MVP-level player who hasn't won All-League awards.

Not unless you catch them on the upswing, like Shai in LAC, or in his first couple OKC seasons. He was a 24/5/6 guy for a couple seasons before he even made an All-Star team, remember. And then he blew the hell up into a total monster.

But yes, it's true. In the three-point era, there are basically only Detroit teams in various decades which have won titles without an MVP-level talent. And even then, Ben Wallace was a many-time DPOY, All-D, even All-NBA 2nd Team in the title season. 2nd in the DPOY vote that year, 7th in the MVP vote, an All-Star, etc, etc. And of course the earlier Pistons had Isiah and others. Beyond that? Maybe 2024 Boston? Tatum's All-League, just not really MVP-level, particularly come the playoffs.

Magic/Kareem, Bird, Doctor J and Moses, Jordan, Hakeem, Duncan, Shaq/Kobe, Wade (even though he never won the MVP), KG/Pierce/Ray (past prime, but still, authoring one of the greatest defenses we've seen), Kobe again, Dirk, Lebron in Miami, breakout Steph, Lebron in Cleveland, Steph and KD, Kawhi, Lebron in LA, Giannis, older Steph without KD, Jokic. And then Shai.

Like, 4 teams in over 4.5 decades sells hard the idea that you need a superstar to win, and guys who are playing at MVP level are All-League players during that time.

What we are missing is indeed that top-end talent. We aren't going to ensemble our way to a title, we need to find our way to a transaction which acquires us that MVP-level player somehow if that's the end goal.

Strongly agree. I'd add one point though: many of these eventual champions were good, well-balanced teams -- often for multiple seasons -- that eventually found a way to add a final piece and/or select a later pick that eventually develops into a #1 option. 2019 Raptors, for sure, but also: 1983 Sixers, 1999 Spurs (?), 2006 Heat, 2011 Mavs, 2015 Warriors, 2021 Bucks, 2023 Nuggets, 2024 Boston.

I'll add a second point: the number of teams that tanked to get a high pick, built around a few high lotto picks, and eventually flamed out . . . is a bold long list. Just look at the standings for almost any season in the previous decade and you can identify 2-4 teams that tried this approach, and failed. So the reality is that waiting around for the miracle to come through the draft in the form of a high pick that "pops" on his rookie contract to be a championship level #1 is a very low-odds bet.

In the meantime, what should you do? Having a very good and well-balanced team that is a step or trade away from the championship seems to me more plausible path forward than being a middling team, or tearing it down for a high pick in the current days of flattened lottery odds.

[tsherkin]

Strongly agree. I'd add one point though: many of these eventual champions were good, well-balanced teams -- often for multiple seasons -- that eventually found a way to add a final piece and/or select a later pick that eventually develops into a #1 option. 2019 Raptors, for sure, but also: 1983 Sixers, 1999 Spurs (?), 2006 Heat, 2011 Mavs, 2015 Warriors, 2021 Bucks, 2023 Nuggets, 2024 Boston.

The Sixers, absolutely. They'd already been to the Finals, I think twice prior to adding Moses... who had won 2 of his 3 MVPs prior to the title season.

Nope, THREE Finals appears prior to Moses.

Spurs... had made the WCFs 4 years earlier, but they had the whole "tanking for Duncan" situation during Robinson's injured year, so that's a little bit of a weird moment. 04 Heat were a .500 team in Wade's rookie year after a 25-win season the year before. Then they nabbed Shaq in his exit from Miami, and lost to Detroit in 7 games in the ECFs in 05... and were blown out in Game 6 playing without Wade, who came back for Game 7 and sucked. So that was a health thing, but that is a little different look than we're talking about. They drafted a superstar and traded for a post-prime superstar and were immediately good, as opposed to building a good team over time.

The Mavs were a decent team for a long time who popped out of nowhere when their guys and Dirk went on an epic run. But yes, they were perennially good for like 50-60 wins prior to that point, and they added a bunch of defensive pieces who changed the tone over a couple seasons. Then yeah, Tyson Chandler and BOOM.

I'll add a second point: the number of teams that tanked to get a high pick, built around a few high lotto picks, and eventually flamed out . . . is a bold long list. Just look at the standings for almost any season in the previous decade and you can identify 2-4 teams that tried this approach, and failed. So the reality is that waiting around for the miracle to come through the draft in the form of a high pick that "pops" on his rookie contract to be a championship level #1 is a very low-odds bet.

Especially now. The draft is far more capricious at the top than it used to be, here in the one-and-done era.

In the meantime, what should you do? Having a very good and well-balanced team that is a step or trade away from the championship seems to me more plausible path forward than being a middling team, or tearing it down for a high pick in the current days of flattened lottery odds.

Not-sucking is, at least to me, infinitely more preferable than pulling a Washington/Charlotte, that's for sure.

[MoneyBall]

Franz Wagner.

100% does not make us a contender.

Still developing as a playmaker. Forgot entirely how to shoot the 3 these past two seasons. Has authored a single season of league-average or better efficiency. Topped out his impact stats in a 60-game season this past year, and was well below any kind of meaningful level (impact signals not meaningfully better than 2023 Scottie).

He's an intriguing player, but Orlando was so horrifically starved for offense and he couldn't come through and help them be better than the FOUTH-WORST OFFENSE IN THE LEAGUE.

If he was a tipping-point player, that's not what we would have seen.

I don't think there is a non AS player we can add to make us a contender. None.

That said, just for the fun of it, I think Franz could easily become an All-Star this year given his proven track record of progress. His BPM of 3.1 last season would place him #1 on last year's Raptors roster. Other people already mentioned White and Chet which is fair (and quite franky, are better fits), but Franz could legit become the best player of the three within a season or two.

[tsherkin]

That said, just for the fun of it, I think Franz could easily become an All-Star this year given his proven track record of progress.

He has a lot of potential, I agree. Needs to remember how to hit a three, for starters, and that would push him a long way forward. He certainly has the tools.

[StopitLeo]

In the meantime, what should you do? Having a very good and well-balanced team that is a step or trade away from the championship seems to me more plausible path forward than being a middling team, or tearing it down for a high pick in the current days of flattened lottery odds.

Not-sucking is, at least to me, infinitely more preferable than pulling a Washington/Charlotte, that's for sure.

I think it's worth noting how rarely the MVP-level player leading these teams was projected to be that good when drafted. The GMs who drafted/traded for SGA and Curry have said that they thought they would be good players but never expected them to be MVPs. I'd imagine the same is probably true for Dirk, Giannis, and Jokic (obviously). The fact that all of these guys were drafted in the back half of the lottery or later just goes to show how much luck is involved in a draft pick becoming an elite player (even a top 5 pick).

To your last point(s), I think fans under-appreciate the importance of a winning culture, which perennial lottery teams cannot develop. Unless you draft a generational talent like LeBron—who immediately changes your team culture—you need time to develop it by becoming a winning team before you can be a contending team. The DeRozan-Lowry team wasn't a contending team but they were a winning team like all the teams that you and @oldncreaky listed who eventually won championships, setting the stage for that magical 2019 with Kawhi.

Right now the Raptors are looking to becoming a winning team again. There should be enough top-end talent with Ingram as the #1, assuming he stays healthy of course. Short of a Detroit style "sum greater than the parts" performance any championship aspirations will just have to wait until we have an MVP on the roster. Who's to say Ingram doesn't have that in him? I won't put a ceiling on player improvement after seeing firsthand what Pascal Siakam has become.

[tsherkin]

I think it's worth noting how rarely the MVP-level player leading these teams was projected to be that good when drafted.

100%.

This isn't the 70s or 80s, when guys were there for 4 years and you got to see them into their early 20s with nearly half a decade of college polish and personal growth/development. You had a much better bead on top-end talent then. Now, we get teenagers who are flashing some level of potential with tools and skills and inferred ability and what-not, except in fairly rare cases.

To your last point(s), I think fans under-appreciate the importance of a winning culture, which perennial lottery teams cannot develop. Unless you draft a generational talent like LeBron—who immediately changes your team culture—you need time to develop it by becoming a winning team before you can be a contending team. The DeRozan-Lowry team wasn't a contending team but they were a winning team like all the teams that you and @oldncreaky listed who eventually won championships, setting the stage for that magical 2019 with Kawhi.

Yeppers. And they were, especially in the RS, mostly quite fun to watch. We had some personality (especially with Kyle), we had more wins than losses, we had some highlights, we had fan engagement. It was a good run.

Who's to say Ingram doesn't have that in him? I won't put a ceiling on player improvement after seeing firsthand what Pascal Siakam has become.

Let's be real, he's a decade in and this is his age-28 season: we know who he is at this point. Pascal was showing his signs of improvement pretty early on, and now he's had the advantage of playing alongside Hali for a bit, which makes life easier for everyone. I don't think we're going to see some sudden and miraculous change in BI, but he WILL be a wonderful addition when he does play for us, and should make everyone else's lives much easier with the attention he'll garner. And I will be especially thrilled if he looks like his All-Star self, but will be quite content if he's "just" his 20/5/5 on lgav efficiency self.

I'm excited to watch him play for us, and for what impact he'll bring.

[StopitLeo]

Who's to say Ingram doesn't have that in him? I won't put a ceiling on player improvement after seeing firsthand what Pascal Siakam has become.

Let's be real, he's a decade in and this is his age-28 season: we know who he is at this point. Pascal was showing his signs of improvement pretty early on, and now he's had the advantage of playing alongside Hali for a bit, which makes life easier for everyone. I don't think we're going to see some sudden and miraculous change in BI, but he WILL be a wonderful addition when he does play for us, and should make everyone else's lives much easier with the attention he'll garner. And I will be especially thrilled if he looks like his All-Star self, but will be quite content if he's "just" his 20/5/5 on lgav efficiency self.

I'm excited to watch him play for us, and for what impact he'll bring.

You may be right, but we can hope I think there is no question he's an All-Star level player when healthy.

I'm excited to see what Ingram can bring when he is the clear #1 option AND playing with several high IQ teammates. I think the fit for Ingram in New Orleans was pretty poor once they drafted Zion. It has also felt like we were really trying to force Scottie into being a primary scoring option when that isn't in his DNA. This has the potential to be an ideal "change of scenery" situation for Ingram.

[tsherkin]

You may be right, but we can hope I think there is no question he's an All-Star level player when healthy.

He's certainly a peri-All-Star guy, yeah. And a big deal for us to have, if he's healthy.

It has also felt like we were really trying to force Scottie into being a primary scoring option when that isn't in his DNA. This has the potential to be an ideal "change of scenery" situation for Ingram.

I have been railing against that for a while now, so I'm excited to see what happens when we stop being dumbasses about it, for sure. I'm being hyperbolic, of course, because we were losing and semi-tanking anyway, but still. I'm hopeful that I will enjoy watching us a lot more with other guys taking over the volume roles.

[PhilBlackson]

I stand on Trey Murphy.

A player that can shoot the lights out but also has the SIZE to switch 1-4 & could obviously fit within any lineup. He shoots & produces the way some of this board fantasizes Gradey would lol except he's actually 6'7+ with a MUCH better wingspan and can defend. As soon as he was given the green light to take some more shots he's already over 21+ppg ie/ IQ & Scottie had the same green light and couldn't do it. It won't shock me if he continues to incline to eventually 23-25ppg which is great as a 2nd option (as he will be to Zion, and would be to BI here). Since Scottie is not Zion, Trey won't have to sacrifice his scoring and Scottie would probably GLADLY embrace being that 3rd option connective piece with some added scoring ability. Trey provides the necessary spacing for BI, Scottie & Yak and again has great positional size.

Then we just interchange guys like Mamu (who I think ppl are sleeping on as a 6th man scoring type), Shead, Jakobe, CMB, Ochai, Mogbo, Battle as the primary subs (I'm assuming RJ + Gradey are part of the trade package). Then when whichever guys need a little rest rotate in Martin, Lawson, Battle and Chomche. That's a 53+W team that I 100% think could compete with ANYONE in the league. I'm not saying we'd have the best wing trio but you can't tell me they wouldn't be amongst the best of them and then we have a ridiculous amount of wing depth and interchangeable pieces...if Chomche can continue to improve that truly could be the X-Factor.

Watch on YouTube

NOP didn't say they wouldn't trade him, they'd said they'd want a young player and some picks. I think he's better than Bane, fantastic contract, more versatile as a defender and I think we have the ability/package to make it happen. I wish they would go hustle Dumars one more time lol

[Chris7711]

Thad,Otto porter,Goran,precious,jontay porter,bembry,stanley johnson, flynn,Bruce brown,McDaniel, koloko,g.t.j, bruno,matt thomas,Kelly o, delano

[basketballto]

Flagg.

[mihaic]

Jeremy Lin or Eric Moreland. Each has done it before.

[TheGeneral99]

I think guys like Myles Turner, Bane, Chet, Michael Porter Jr., Murray, OG, Markennan, Lively etc. probably make this team a mild contender and likely a 2nd round team with a shot to make the conference finals with some luck.

Let's say for instance you add Myles Turner and keep the rest of the squad.

You have Quickley, RJ, Scottie, Ingram and Turner...which is a good line-up with solid defense and spacing that can shoot.

Now you have one of the strongest benches in the league with Poeltl, CMB, Walter, Dick, Shead, Ochai.

Having two very good centers would make a huge difference and Turner provides that interior defense and offensive spacing we need.

I'd say we would be a 50-55 win team and would probably make the 2nd round but run into difficulty because we don't have an elite efficient offensive player in the clutch.

[OhCanada]

Wheres Pat Mccaw when you need him.

[Pointgod]

[Gavin_TDThree]

This is tough. I want someone who can slide into the starting lineup that doesn’t need the ball in their hands to be effective, can hit open shots and play defence.

I landed on Andrew Wiggins. Big wing who’s only job is to shoot 3s and play defence