Joel: unchained.

[Negrodamus]

What are we even talking about here though? He was arguably worthy of two MVPs and has been dominant when healthy. He has grievances. If he had Jordan’s mentality, he’d still be injury prone.

It’s not like he was this massive bust because he had a bad attitude. In the end, his attitude has no bearing on his availability. You can’t prevent a meniscus injury from happening if Kuminga falls into your knee. You can’t lose enough weight or get strong enough to prevent Fultz and Siakam from bashing in your orbital bone.

His own teammates, including probably the most fun-loving guy on the planet in Tyrese Maxey, called him out last year for his lack of professionalism.

So let’s not sit here and pretend that the only issues with Embiid are injury related. He’s been relatively healthy at times and still hasn’t produced when it’s mattered.

Yep, but he still puts up monster numbers despite the lack of professionalism when healthy. He’s not a liability on the court. I have no gripe with Maxey calling him out to be better, but until Maxey can carry this team by himself, Embiid is our best bet at winning it all. I’m not saying he’s faultless, but I also think the takeaway being that Embiid shoulders most of the responsibility here and he’s continuing to be a blight on this team is incorrect; but everyone is entitled to their opinion.

I can’t help but imagine how difficult life would be for me at 15-16 going to a foreign country where I’m still learning the language, try to navigate three different levels of competition away from my family and have many levels of despair, feelings of betrayal, and a ton of pressure. I get it, he should have “grown up” but it’s easy for me to say from my couch where I’ve had zero percent of his lives experience.

[Iverson Armband]

What are we even talking about here though? He was arguably worthy of two MVPs and has been dominant when healthy. He has grievances. If he had Jordan’s mentality, he’d still be injury prone.

It’s not like he was this massive bust because he had a bad attitude. In the end, his attitude has no bearing on his availability. You can’t prevent a meniscus injury from happening if Kuminga falls into your knee. You can’t lose enough weight or get strong enough to prevent Fultz and Siakam from bashing in your orbital bone.

His own teammates, including probably the most fun-loving guy on the planet in Tyrese Maxey, called him out last year for his lack of professionalism.

So let’s not sit here and pretend that the only issues with Embiid are injury related. He’s been relatively healthy at times and still hasn’t produced when it’s mattered.

Yep, but he still puts up monster numbers despite the lack of professionalism when healthy. He’s not a liability on the court. I have no gripe with Maxey calling him out to be better, but until Maxey can carry this team by himself, Embiid is our best bet at winning it all. I’m not saying he’s faultless, but I also think the takeaway being that Embiid shoulders most of the responsibility here and he’s continuing to be a blight on this team is incorrect; but everyone is entitled to their opinion.

I can’t help but imagine how difficult life would be for me at 15-16 going to a foreign country where I’m still learning the language, try to navigate three different levels of competition away from my family and have many levels of despair, feelings of betrayal, and a ton of pressure. I get it, he should have “grown up” but it’s easy for me to say from my couch where I’ve had zero percent of his lives experience.

“Numbers” in the regular season don’t really matter when you can’t get out of the second round. Pretty sure Maxey could lead us to some second round exits with a halfway competent team around him.

As far as blame goes, I see it at about an equal 50/50 split between Joel and the organization. I can give Joel a pass on things he did at 21, not 31. And I don’t have to have lived his life or had his exact experiences to feel that way. Everyone goes through hardships in life.

In a few short years, he’ll have lived half his life better then 99% of people could ever imagine. Excuse me for not shedding a tear.

[Negrodamus]

His own teammates, including probably the most fun-loving guy on the planet in Tyrese Maxey, called him out last year for his lack of professionalism.

So let’s not sit here and pretend that the only issues with Embiid are injury related. He’s been relatively healthy at times and still hasn’t produced when it’s mattered.

Yep, but he still puts up monster numbers despite the lack of professionalism when healthy. He’s not a liability on the court. I have no gripe with Maxey calling him out to be better, but until Maxey can carry this team by himself, Embiid is our best bet at winning it all. I’m not saying he’s faultless, but I also think the takeaway being that Embiid shoulders most of the responsibility here and he’s continuing to be a blight on this team is incorrect; but everyone is entitled to their opinion.

I can’t help but imagine how difficult life would be for me at 15-16 going to a foreign country where I’m still learning the language, try to navigate three different levels of competition away from my family and have many levels of despair, feelings of betrayal, and a ton of pressure. I get it, he should have “grown up” but it’s easy for me to say from my couch where I’ve had zero percent of his lives experience.

“Numbers” in the regular season don’t really matter when you can’t get out of the second round. Pretty sure Maxey could lead us to some second round exits with a halfway competent team around him.

As far as blame goes, I see it at about an equal 50/50 split between Joel and the organization. I can give Joel a pass on things he did at 21, not 31. And I don’t have to have lived his life or had his exact experiences to feel that way. Everyone goes through hardships in life.

In a few short years, he’ll have lived half his life better then 99% of people could ever imagine. Excuse me for not shedding a tear.

I'm not shedding a tear either, I'm just looking at it from a purely psychological approach and trying to understand it from a perspective different than my own. The things that occur at 21 created the barriers and built up resentment you see at 31. I don't think you need to live his life to understand that, right? If you worked at a job for 10 years and they jerked you around for the first 5, are you going to have your guard up for the following five?

Also, I think he's had one playoff appearance where he wasn't hobbled by injures. You can say he is genetically prone to injury and/or he has historic bad luck in that department, but he's rarely in the postseason without something slowing him down.

[Mik317]

Biid is not faultless. I don't think even his biggest stans would say he is. But the simple fact that he is not the only guy who has been treated like **** by this organization makes me feel like said organization may be the problem lol. Feel like that has been overlooked for the more tabloid stuff in the article. The intern being in charge of rehab, the fact that MULTIPLE outside sources had to be brought in for Biid alone, the fact that Maxey, Ben and again Biid all feel like they have to or had to go outside the organization for training...that **** is clownshoes man.

I have always said that the fact that we are even in a position to be let down and mad about not making out of the second round is actually impressive considering the insane list of dumb **** that has gone on over these 10 years. Biid despite it all has allowed that level of "success" damn near solo with a revolving cast of dudes who all seem to leave on bad terms. If you take a step back that is nuts. THIS DOES NOT MEAN BIID IS FAULTLESS or that we should be greatful for this because at the end of the day sports are about winning and we simply have not done that and Biid has to hold that on his chest too....but at a certain point if the stupid **** keeps happening behind the scenes...thats kinda the problem no?

[Iverson Armband]

Yep, but he still puts up monster numbers despite the lack of professionalism when healthy. He’s not a liability on the court. I have no gripe with Maxey calling him out to be better, but until Maxey can carry this team by himself, Embiid is our best bet at winning it all. I’m not saying he’s faultless, but I also think the takeaway being that Embiid shoulders most of the responsibility here and he’s continuing to be a blight on this team is incorrect; but everyone is entitled to their opinion.

I can’t help but imagine how difficult life would be for me at 15-16 going to a foreign country where I’m still learning the language, try to navigate three different levels of competition away from my family and have many levels of despair, feelings of betrayal, and a ton of pressure. I get it, he should have “grown up” but it’s easy for me to say from my couch where I’ve had zero percent of his lives experience.

“Numbers” in the regular season don’t really matter when you can’t get out of the second round. Pretty sure Maxey could lead us to some second round exits with a halfway competent team around him.

As far as blame goes, I see it at about an equal 50/50 split between Joel and the organization. I can give Joel a pass on things he did at 21, not 31. And I don’t have to have lived his life or had his exact experiences to feel that way. Everyone goes through hardships in life.

In a few short years, he’ll have lived half his life better then 99% of people could ever imagine. Excuse me for not shedding a tear.

I'm not shedding a tear either, I'm just looking at it from a purely psychological approach and trying to understand it from a perspective different than my own. The things that occur at 21 created the barriers and built up resentment you see at 31. I don't think you need to live his life to understand that, right? If you worked at a job for 10 years and they jerked you around for the first 5, are you going to have your guard up for the following five?

Also, I think he's had one playoff appearance where he wasn't hobbled by injures. You can say he is genetically prone to injury and/or he has historic bad luck in that department, but he's rarely in the postseason without something slowing him down.

Well, if you want to compare jobs, if I had pulled half the stunts Joel did at my job, I’d be on the unemployment line.
Your past can shape you, but it doesn’t have to define you. Right now, Joel is allowing his past to define him to the detriment of the team. That is a choice he is willfully making, and judging him based on that is fair when he is now 31 years old.

The organization has made a lot of mistakes, yes. Including coddling and babying Joel at every turn. Not sure who that speaks more poorly about.

Regardless, it hasn’t been all bad here and no organization bats .1000. A lot of the bad things that have happened here have been out of the organization’s control as well. But at the end of the day, it’s not the Sixers fault Joel’s dog and brother died. It’s not the Sixers fault he came to America at a young age. And it’s not the Sixers nor his teammates fault he chooses to alienate himself, not condition his body properly and wilt under pressure.

[76ciology]

Watch on YouTube

[mjkvol]

Well, if you want to compare jobs, if I had pulled half the stunts Joel did at my job, I’d be on the unemployment line.

This is an argument you hear too often that to me is absolutely inane. Comparing a normal 9-5 job to that of a professional athlete at the highest level is way beyond apples and oranges. It's utterly ridiculous, unless your job requires you to have skills that a fraction of one percent of the population possess, provides you generational wealth, and has you in the public spotlight 24-7-365.

I don't disagree that Embiid shares in the blame for much of what has gone on here, but I'll repeat what I posted earlier regarding comparisons between Embiid and a player like Duncan, who we have wanted him to emulate. Look at the upbringing, college experience, maturity upon being drafted, situations they were drafted into with regard to quality of organization, coaching, team leaders they had as rookies, and talent they were surrounded with throughout their careers. On the surface alone the comparison is absurd.

The Sixers drafted a kid completely unequipped to deal with all that came with being the face of a franchise, butchered his treatment at every turn, scapegoated him instead of taking responsibility, never built a proper roster around him or hired competent coaches, and yet expected him to play superman and win championships. Name the player who would have thrived in such a situation.

[SixersSince82]

I used to think that too. Reading that article gave me an entirely different perspective.

Joel's clearly a very difficult person to get through to. The folks that did get through to him coddled the sh*t outta him. Had he been given a firmer hand, tougher guidance, I don't think it would have worked. That article makes it sound like as soon as someone does something he doesn't like he kind of shuts down toward them. You dont learn that from interactions at your job. That's with you well before that and the article shows as much.

We probably got the best Joel we could have realistically hoped for.

That's exactly the dynamic that ensues when you tell your fans to "trust the process" -- i.e., to tolerate losing on purpose because it'll make us destined to win. Then you're deeply indebted to your fans and you MUST win, which in turn makes you overvalue the players obtained when you were tanking. As soon as you jettison one of those cherished players for whatever reason, as teams normally do here and there, how can you possibly retain the trust of your fanbase? You asked me to "trust the process" and now you're getting rid of the player(s) you obtained while I was trusting you and enduring your losing? The organization instead has to hang on to those players at almost all costs.

The players obtained as part of the tank know all this on some level and therefore experience themselves as "untouchable" to a far greater degree than the typical NBA player, and those are far from optimal conditions for effective player development.

"The process" as a simple math equation (lose = better draft picks) is great. When applied to living breathing human beings however, it ain't so great.

I think that’s an oversimplification of the process. Just curious if you were in favor of it at first and soured over the years or never liked the concept to begin with?

Seems like your main point is that Joel (and presumably Ben Simmons?) see themselves as untouchable to a far greater degree than the typical NBA player. Of course they do, they were very highly regarded prospects who were talked about as franchise player(s) before they were drafted and became all stars almost immediately once they got on the court. That’s got nothing to do with the fact that the 6ers were bad “on purpose” versus other franchises who have the opportunity to draft top draft picks because they were bad due to ineptitude.

[SixersSince82]

Joel was 20 years old when the 6ers drafted him. Some of the comments it seems like folks have never met teenagers or young adults, lol. They got a lot of growing up to do, no doubt, but they also have defined largely formed personalities/character traits.

It's part of the 6ers job to shepard that growth but it seems like some folks are suggesting the 6ers created (how do you say it kindly) the character concerns Joel seems to have. Na, the franchise has to navigate them. (just like Joel has to navigate the franchise).

[Iverson Armband]

Well, if you want to compare jobs, if I had pulled half the stunts Joel did at my job, I’d be on the unemployment line.

This is an argument you hear too often that to me is absolutely inane. Comparing a normal 9-5 job to that of a professional athlete at the highest level is way beyond apples and oranges. It's utterly ridiculous, unless your job requires you to have skills that a fraction of one percent of the population possess, provides you generational wealth, and has you in the public spotlight 24-7-365.

I don't disagree that Embiid shares in the blame for much of what has gone on here, but I'll repeat what I posted earlier regarding comparisons between Embiid and a player like Duncan, who we have wanted him to emulate. Look at the upbringing, college experience, maturity upon being drafted, situations they were drafted into with regard to quality of organization, coaching, team leaders they had as rookies, and talent they were surrounded with throughout their careers. On the surface alone the comparison is absurd.

The Sixers drafted a kid completely unequipped to deal with all that came with being the face of a franchise, butchered his treatment at every turn, scapegoated him instead of taking responsibility, never built a proper roster around him or hired competent coaches, and yet expected him to play superman and win championships. Name the player who would have thrived in such a situation.

I’m not the one who brought up the job comparison. You cherry-picked one part of my post and ran with it. I agree that comparing the NBA to a regular job is apples to oranges. If being in the NBA can even be considered a job.

[mjkvol]

Well, if you want to compare jobs, if I had pulled half the stunts Joel did at my job, I’d be on the unemployment line.

This is an argument you hear too often that to me is absolutely inane. Comparing a normal 9-5 job to that of a professional athlete at the highest level is way beyond apples and oranges. It's utterly ridiculous, unless your job requires you to have skills that a fraction of one percent of the population possess, provides you generational wealth, and has you in the public spotlight 24-7-365.

I don't disagree that Embiid shares in the blame for much of what has gone on here, but I'll repeat what I posted earlier regarding comparisons between Embiid and a player like Duncan, who we have wanted him to emulate. Look at the upbringing, college experience, maturity upon being drafted, situations they were drafted into with regard to quality of organization, coaching, team leaders they had as rookies, and talent they were surrounded with throughout their careers. On the surface alone the comparison is absurd.

The Sixers drafted a kid completely unequipped to deal with all that came with being the face of a franchise, butchered his treatment at every turn, scapegoated him instead of taking responsibility, never built a proper roster around him or hired competent coaches, and yet expected him to play superman and win championships. Name the player who would have thrived in such a situation.

I’m not the one who brought up the job comparison. You cherry-picked one part of my post and ran with it. I agree that comparing the NBA to a regular job is apples to oranges. If being in the NBA can even be considered a job.

Sorry, I only saw your post regarding jobs.

[Iverson Armband]

Biid is not faultless. I don't think even his biggest stans would say he is. But the simple fact that he is not the only guy who has been treated like **** by this organization makes me feel like said organization may be the problem lol. Feel like that has been overlooked for the more tabloid stuff in the article. The intern being in charge of rehab, the fact that MULTIPLE outside sources had to be brought in for Biid alone, the fact that Maxey, Ben and again Biid all feel like they have to or had to go outside the organization for training...that **** is clownshoes man.

I have always said that the fact that we are even in a position to be let down and mad about not making out of the second round is actually impressive considering the insane list of dumb **** that has gone on over these 10 years. Biid despite it all has allowed that level of "success" damn near solo with a revolving cast of dudes who all seem to leave on bad terms. If you take a step back that is nuts. THIS DOES NOT MEAN BIID IS FAULTLESS or that we should be greatful for this because at the end of the day sports are about winning and we simply have not done that and Biid has to hold that on his chest too....but at a certain point if the stupid **** keeps happening behind the scenes...thats kinda the problem no?

Maxey loves this organization. In fact, he’s on the record as calling out Embiid, not the organization. They drafted and developed him when a bunch of idiot organizations passed on him. They built him a shrine museum ffs I’m not sure him working with Hanlen like a lot of stars do is a slight to the org at all.

Simmons is a certified nut job. He shouldn’t be brought up to make any kind of point.

[76ciology]

I agree with a lot of what Iverson Armband said. His posts gave me insight, especially the part about how certain things are understandable when you’re 21, but not when you’re 31. That’s exactly how this article on Embiid reads to me. It feels like he’s justifying his current state at 31 by pointing to everything he went through at 21, the loss of family, how the team treated him, even the passing of his dog.

I’m not sure what kind of narrative he’s trying to build with releasing another anti-Sixers organization article. Some say it’s a setup for a future trade request. But to me, it feels like he’s trying to build a shield. A way to protect himself from scrutiny. Embiid probably fears that he wont get to that level anymore. And he saw what happened to Ben, when his numbers and accolades weren’t there anymore. And he saw how people turned on Tobias with his overpaid contact. And now he fears he could be next.

There’s no more scapegoat now.

[76ciology]

Watch on YouTube

I’m not sure if you’ve seen this, but with the new CBA putting more value on depth and reducing the emphasis on top-end talent, I think we’ll see even more player movement. A lot of franchises will likely choose to let star players walk or trade them rather than lock themselves into a supermax. And many of these stars might end up taking less than the supermax to sign elsewhere.

[Ferry Avenue]

I used to think that too. Reading that article gave me an entirely different perspective.

Joel's clearly a very difficult person to get through to. The folks that did get through to him coddled the sh*t outta him. Had he been given a firmer hand, tougher guidance, I don't think it would have worked. That article makes it sound like as soon as someone does something he doesn't like he kind of shuts down toward them. You dont learn that from interactions at your job. That's with you well before that and the article shows as much.

We probably got the best Joel we could have realistically hoped for.

That's exactly the dynamic that ensues when you tell your fans to "trust the process" -- i.e., to tolerate losing on purpose because it'll make us destined to win. Then you're deeply indebted to your fans and you MUST win, which in turn makes you overvalue the players obtained when you were tanking. As soon as you jettison one of those cherished players for whatever reason, as teams normally do here and there, how can you possibly retain the trust of your fanbase? You asked me to "trust the process" and now you're getting rid of the player(s) you obtained while I was trusting you and enduring your losing? The organization instead has to hang on to those players at almost all costs.

The players obtained as part of the tank know all this on some level and therefore experience themselves as "untouchable" to a far greater degree than the typical NBA player, and those are far from optimal conditions for effective player development.

"The process" as a simple math equation (lose = better draft picks) is great. When applied to living breathing human beings however, it ain't so great.

I think that’s an oversimplification of the process. Just curious if you were in favor of it at first and soured over the years or never liked the concept to begin with?

Seems like your main point is that Joel (and presumably Ben Simmons?) see themselves as untouchable to a far greater degree than the typical NBA player. Of course they do, they were very highly regarded prospects who were talked about as franchise player(s) before they were drafted and became all stars almost immediately once they got on the court. That’s got nothing to do with the fact that the 6ers were bad “on purpose” versus other franchises who have the opportunity to draft top draft picks because they were bad due to ineptitude.

Losing on purpose and telling your fans to trust it'll result in big-time future winning is fundamentally different from trying to win and losing nonetheless. There is an indebtedness the Sixers have to their fanbase that losing teams that haven't tanked do not.

Simmons and Embiid were the crown jewels of the process, the tanking effort. Simmons should've been traded when his free throw shooting didn't improve -- that was low-hanging fruit he never grabbed that made it evident he would never put forth the effort to expand his game, which made him fatally flawed as a player.

Embiid on the other hand shouldn't have been traded until recently, but the constant years-long effort to "build around" him should've been abandoned long ago.

Both players have been overvalued, and I submit it's because they symbolize the "trust" the organization asked its fanbase to have in it. "Trust the process" simply evolves to become "trusting" Simmons and Embiid. Imagine what the team would look like right now if both players were traded when their value was highest.