Official Scottie All Star Barnes Thread 9

[LoveMyRaps]

Wish we got this type of training from Scottie….

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Would be an interesting alternative universe were we took Mobley at #4 instead of Scottie. Obviously was a great pick at #4 considering Mobley was already taken. I remember in the draft the rumour was that Mobley was our #1 guy and Scottie was our #2.

We would have FVV, Gary, OG, Pascal and Mobley...probably more balance in the line-up and a better fit alongside Pascal, OG and FVV. You don't have to trade for Poeltl.

Wish Mobley fell to us. He's the better player for sure. He leapfrogged Scottie last season and then some.

[littlerock2277]

Wish we got this type of training from Scottie….

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He looks a lot bigger, a prefect big to have in this era.

[Pointgod]

Wish we got this type of training from Scottie….

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Mobley is looking like he’s filled out more. But I wouldn’t use this as any indication of Scottie.

[Madvillainy2004]

No more excuses. Put up or shut up season.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

As if a ROTY and All.Star season doesnt exist...

People weigh the value and merit of those selections differently.

I personally do not care about a ROTY and fringe all star appearance lmao also he's getting paid A LOT more now and needs to show he's at least somewhat worth his contract.

[HangTime]

As if a ROTY and All.Star season doesnt exist...

People weigh the value and merit of those selections differently.

I personally do not care about a ROTY and fringe all star appearance lmao also he's getting paid A LOT more now and needs to show he's at least somewhat worth his contract.

Look at this way, we get Scottie on the Max, and the Cavs got Mobley on the super-max.
Bit of a sacrifice on Scotties part, The Raptors made it difficult him. Whereas the Cavs made it easier for Mobley.

[Tripod]

As if a ROTY and All.Star season doesnt exist...

People weigh the value and merit of those selections differently.

I personally do not care about a ROTY and fringe all star appearance lmao also he's getting paid A LOT more now and needs to show he's at least somewhat worth his contract.

Those 2 years you can ignore all you want. But they do show that Barnes has been capable of being arguably the best player in that draft on those years.

Obviously this past year is different...just like year 2 was. And for sure to keep up, he will need to jump up a level.

But in the end, next year is about wins. If they win, Barnes will likely be a big part of the reason why. Now some of the counting stats might decrease(as will RJ's imo) with the addition of BI, but if we are winning, who cares. Like Siakam's have dropped as a Pacer, but due to them winning, few care. DMitchell was the same way this year with Cavs. Who cares as long as they win(playoffs they were ravaged with injuries).

Barnes is unselfish and is willing to defer offense to others and focus on defense. And that's fine because that's his strengths anyways. But we also have all seen him take over 4th Q so he does have that in him. But with BI, that shouldn't be needed.

Let's find mismatches and exploit them each game. Who cares if on any given night it's RJ, BI, Barnes or IQ...just find it and take advantage of it and win games.

[JShuttlesworth]

I think Barnes is going to have a solid year, Ingram is going to compliment his game nicely

I keep seeing people wanting Scottie to be something that he isn't, I find this is a trend for Raptor fans. Sometimes your weaknesses aren't going to develop into strengths, they're just going to remain weaknesses. Scottie isn't a primary scoring option right now, maybe that will come, but he likes to pass -- he's certainly not a 3-point threat and I don't want him shooting 3's.

October (4 games) - 2.8 3PA, .182 3P%
November (5 games) - 7.8 3PA, .282 3P%
December (11 games) - 5.8 3PA, .277 3P%
January (15 games) - 4.0 3PA, .267 3P%
February (11 games) - 4.4 3PA, .271 3P%
March (14 games) - 2.9 3PA, .250 3P%
April (5 games) - 3.4 3PA, .353 3P%

I don't really think there's any reason for Scottie to be forcing 3's, if he's wide open, sure but it's not a good shot for him.

Instead of heaving threes, he should focus on what he's good at. I want to see him doing his work in the mid-range and using his body to get down low. A lot of that is on Darko too, and I think we saw him starting to make that adjustment last year.

[OhCanada]

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[Thaddy]

I think Barnes is going to have a solid year, Ingram is going to compliment his game nicely

I keep seeing people wanted Scottie to be something that he isn't, I find this is a trend for Raptor fans. Sometimes your weaknesses aren't going to develop into strengths, they're just going to remain weaknesses. Scottie isn't a primary scoring option right now, maybe that will come, but he likes to pass -- he's certainly not a 3-point threat and I don't want him shooting 3's.

October (4 games) - 2.8 3PA, .182 3P%
November (5 games) - 7.8 3PA, .282 3P%
December (11 games) - 5.8 3PA, .277 3P%
January (15 games) - 4.0 3PA, .267 3P%
February (11 games) - 4.4 3PA, .271 3P%
March (14 games) - 2.9 3PA, .250 3P%
April (5 games) - 3.4 3PA, .353 3P%

I don't really think there's any reason for Scottie to be forcing 3's, if he's wide open, sure but it's not a good shot for him.

Instead of heaving threes, he should focus on what he's good at. I don't want to see Scottie chucking threes, I want to see him doing his work in the mid-range and using his body to get down low. A lot of that is on Darko too, and I think we saw him starting to make that adjustment last year.

Shooting and ball handling are big problems for Barnes. I'm not sure why we're so invested in him. The passing is good but it doesn't generate offense around him.

[ArthurVandelay]

I think Barnes is going to have a solid year, Ingram is going to compliment his game nicely

I keep seeing people wanted Scottie to be something that he isn't, I find this is a trend for Raptor fans. Sometimes your weaknesses aren't going to develop into strengths, they're just going to remain weaknesses. Scottie isn't a primary scoring option right now, maybe that will come, but he likes to pass -- he's certainly not a 3-point threat and I don't want him shooting 3's.

October (4 games) - 2.8 3PA, .182 3P%
November (5 games) - 7.8 3PA, .282 3P%
December (11 games) - 5.8 3PA, .277 3P%
January (15 games) - 4.0 3PA, .267 3P%
February (11 games) - 4.4 3PA, .271 3P%
March (14 games) - 2.9 3PA, .250 3P%
April (5 games) - 3.4 3PA, .353 3P%

I don't really think there's any reason for Scottie to be forcing 3's, if he's wide open, sure but it's not a good shot for him.

Instead of heaving threes, he should focus on what he's good at. I don't want to see Scottie chucking threes, I want to see him doing his work in the mid-range and using his body to get down low. A lot of that is on Darko too, and I think we saw him starting to make that adjustment last year.

Shooting and ball handling are big problems for Barnes. I'm not sure why we're so invested in him. The passing is good but it doesn't generate offense around him.

Players who flirt with triple doubles each game with really good defense are not to be undervalued.

He played to his weaknesses for the last season and a half. Many of us had hope he would develop more offensively, including me, but he hasn’t. That is fine, he ain’t him on O. Doesn't mean he isn’t incredibly talented and not a winning player though.

It’s going to be fun watching the narratives turn on BI, Quickley, RJ, but especially Scottie when the team has a winning record come January.

[binjumper]

I think Barnes is going to have a solid year, Ingram is going to compliment his game nicely

I keep seeing people wanted Scottie to be something that he isn't, I find this is a trend for Raptor fans. Sometimes your weaknesses aren't going to develop into strengths, they're just going to remain weaknesses. Scottie isn't a primary scoring option right now, maybe that will come, but he likes to pass -- he's certainly not a 3-point threat and I don't want him shooting 3's.

October (4 games) - 2.8 3PA, .182 3P%
November (5 games) - 7.8 3PA, .282 3P%
December (11 games) - 5.8 3PA, .277 3P%
January (15 games) - 4.0 3PA, .267 3P%
February (11 games) - 4.4 3PA, .271 3P%
March (14 games) - 2.9 3PA, .250 3P%
April (5 games) - 3.4 3PA, .353 3P%

I don't really think there's any reason for Scottie to be forcing 3's, if he's wide open, sure but it's not a good shot for him.

Instead of heaving threes, he should focus on what he's good at. I don't want to see Scottie chucking threes, I want to see him doing his work in the mid-range and using his body to get down low. A lot of that is on Darko too, and I think we saw him starting to make that adjustment last year.

Shooting and ball handling are big problems for Barnes. I'm not sure why we're so invested in him. The passing is good but it doesn't generate offense around him.

This is a really poor take ignoring everything else that goes into basketball. Not everything is about scoring. Passing does in fact generate offense. Every hear about a player named Nikola Jokić?

[tsherkin]

Those 2 years you can ignore all you want. But they do show that Barnes has been capable of being arguably the best player in that draft on those years.

I certainly think he made an argument of it with box score stats during that first year, and then in that third year again people enjoyed the raw averages, as they often do.

I'd love to revisit this later after we have a better idea of how we are going to use Scottie. I feel like as long as we try to run too much volume to him, then we are going to have these types of discussions. If and once we decide to cut down his volume, we should be able to focus on his defense a lot more, and then the pro-Scottie line starts to become much more tenable and appealing.

As you say, Barnes isn't a guy who is demanding volume, which is encouraging, and he is demonstrably a very good defender.

We need to see what scoring skillsets he can leverage to a meaningful degree and maybe look at those, but as has come up before, I think he's better off learning how to use his shoulders like an adult to screen properly and turn that into more of his focal game on that end. Could take some lessons from CMB. Then we can all emphasis his utility as a rangy defender, his solid rebounding, and his ability to function as a nice transition playmaker.

I want to like Scottie on our team, I just don't love him being deployed in a role where we ask him to score a bunch, because he's not good at it. But he's good at most other things which aren't screens, which makes him very compelling as a glue player.

[tsherkin]

This is a really poor take ignoring everything else that goes into basketball. Not everything is about scoring. Passing does in fact generate offense. Every hear about a player named Nikola Jokić?

It isn't as binary as that. Jokic is a hyper-efficient guy who just scored almost 30 ppg on a season, and has range. It does meaningfully impact his ability to make plays for others, as does his dramatically superior playmaking ability. He isn't a problematically-inefficient scorer with weak range and poor screening ability. It's just not a good example.

You're not wrong about playmaking more generally, though. Scottie's pretty valuable to us off of a DRB, kickstarting the break and wielding his passing there. And he does know how to manage a PnR pretty well. He's got good vision and technical passing ability. The trouble is, you mostly need a good number of possessions to leverage that meaningfully, so generally, you need to be able to score. And given our team's particulars, stacking "bleh" to "crap" scorers together isn't a good move for trying to uplift our offense, even with playmaking.


Now, we have new options this year as long as BI and Quick are healthy, so that's a good start. And maybe Darko will deploy Scottie a little differently now that we are actively trying to win. No more reason to just blindly experiment and see how it goes, after all. So maybe he'll find a way to help Scottie look better inside this new environment. There's lots to suggest that there will be more room for everyone to maneuver, at least while we're healthy to start.

[binjumper]

This is a really poor take ignoring everything else that goes into basketball. Not everything is about scoring. Passing does in fact generate offense. Every hear about a player named Nikola Jokić?

It isn't as binary as that. Jokic is a hyper-efficient guy who just scored almost 30 ppg on a season, and has range. It does meaningfully impact his ability to make plays for others, as does his dramatically superior playmaking ability. He isn't a problematically-inefficient scorer with weak range and poor screening ability. It's just not a good example.

You're not wrong about playmaking more generally, though. Scottie's pretty valuable to us off of a DRB, kickstarting the break and wielding his passing there. And he does know how to manage a PnR pretty well. He's got good vision and technical passing ability. The trouble is, you mostly need a good number of possessions to leverage that meaningfully, so generally, you need to be able to score. And given our team's particulars, stacking "bleh" to "crap" scorers together isn't a good move for trying to uplift our offense, even with playmaking.


Now, we have new options this year as long as BI and Quick are healthy, so that's a good start. And maybe Darko will deploy Scottie a little differently now that we are actively trying to win. No more reason to just blindly experiment and see how it goes, after all. So maybe he'll find a way to help Scottie look better inside this new environment. There's lots to suggest that there will be more room for everyone to maneuver, at least while we're healthy to start.

Scottie and Jokic average almost identical ppg their first 4 years as players. It wasn't till Jokic's year 6 that his offence went from 19.9 ppg to 26.4 ppg. So lets not pretend he was some juggernaut out of the gate. It only makes sense for a Centre to be more efficient on offence. Especially with Scottie taking more 3s.

[tsherkin]

Scottie and Jokic average almost identical ppg their first 4 years as players. It wasn't till Jokic's year 6 that his offence went from 19.9 ppg to 26.4 ppg. So lets not pretend he was some juggernaut out of the gate. It only makes sense for a Centre to be more efficient on offence. Especially with Scottie taking more 3s.

Jokic was a 58.2% TS player as a rookie (108 TS+). Then 64.0, then 60.3 and 58.9 over his first four seasons. He averaged 109 TS+ over those seasons.

Scottie was just 61st of 61 players scoring 19+ ppg in terms of efficiency, and it's not the first time he's been under 53% TS. He also has a weak jumper and no 3 ball more particularly.

There's a very WIDE delta in their relevance as scorers; volume alone means nothing.

[720]

Wish we got this type of training from Scottie….

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Offseason workout footage is fun for us fans but isn’t indicative of anything. If you want footage of this year’s workouts there are some out there. I’m actually glad most of the footage isn’t out. Previous years we would get a lot more but who cares about that. Just want him to focus on getting better. We’ll see this fall if his game takes another step or not.

[Tripod]

Those 2 years you can ignore all you want. But they do show that Barnes has been capable of being arguably the best player in that draft on those years.

I certainly think he made an argument of it with box score stats during that first year, and then in that third year again people enjoyed the raw averages, as they often do.

I'd love to revisit this later after we have a better idea of how we are going to use Scottie. I feel like as long as we try to run too much volume to him, then we are going to have these types of discussions. If and once we decide to cut down his volume, we should be able to focus on his defense a lot more, and then the pro-Scottie line starts to become much more tenable and appealing.

As you say, Barnes isn't a guy who is demanding volume, which is encouraging, and he is demonstrably a very good defender.

We need to see what scoring skillsets he can leverage to a meaningful degree and maybe look at those, but as has come up before, I think he's better off learning how to use his shoulders like an adult to screen properly and turn that into more of his focal game on that end. Could take some lessons from CMB. Then we can all emphasis his utility as a rangy defender, his solid rebounding, and his ability to function as a nice transition playmaker.

I want to like Scottie on our team, I just don't love him being deployed in a role where we ask him to score a bunch, because he's not good at it. But he's good at most other things which aren't screens, which makes him very compelling as a glue player.

Agreed. But it's also not like we have had a potential 28 point scorer on the team and Barnes was getting shots instead of him.

In his 4 years, he has been 5, T4, 2nd, 2nd in FGA. Like it wasn't until year 3 until he took more shots than OG or GTJ...and he was always behind FVV and Siakam. Last year he has been behind RJ....with IQ and Gradey next.

So it's not like he is "taking" shots away from more deserving people...though personally I want more shots from IQ.

But with adding BI, Barnes will be 3rd or 4th in shots....we just ALL hope it's the right types of shots vs just shooting for reps.

On the end, he does a lot of things right that will lead to wins. I am excited to see how everything comes together and also what moves we make in the future. This next year is the 1st step upward in the standings. The team will change a bunch just as it did when in 2015-19. Hopefully we end up with the same result someday.

[tsherkin]

Agreed. But it's also not like we have had a potential 28 point scorer on the team and Barnes was getting shots instead of him.

No, no responses about Scottie as a scorer have to all be framed in the context of future projection, right? I think everyone paying even half attention realized that we were in a bad spot and were trying something. It hasn't been working, which is part of why we continuously floundered on O. For me, I have been trying to frame things in terms of what it could be with a better option, because it's been clear for a long time that Scottie isn't suited to this role.

But with adding BI, Barnes will be 3rd or 4th in shots....we just ALL hope it's the right types of shots vs just shooting for reps.

My concern with him is that he's never been efficient, even on lower volume. He isn't startlingly good at the things OTHER than on-ball isolation and scoring out of the PnR and what-not. And he's not good as a screener. So I'm concerned about his overall value and ability to score efficiently in this environment. And we do need him to be a LITTLE bit of a threat to help enable him as a playmaker. Because if he's JUST a defensive piece, then he still also has to work on screening and C+S 3pt shooting from the corners for maximum relevance and value, you know? But if we're hoping he's more than that, then he... has to do those things AND develop in other areas more as well.

On the end, he does a lot of things right that will lead to wins. I am excited to see how everything comes together and also what moves we make in the future. This next year is the 1st step upward in the standings. The team will change a bunch just as it did when in 2015-19. Hopefully we end up with the same result someday.

Broadly, I'm excited for the start of the season. Just having IQ healthy and BI incoming should make a large difference. And if we recapture some of our second-half defense, so much the better. And then, maybe some development from the kids. And I grow more interested in CMB's potential with each day, which has been a nice feeling.

And of course I'm excited to get north of .500, and to be cheering for wins with any expectation that they'll come. That'll be an excellent shift, too.

[tsherkin]

Wish we got this type of training from Scottie….

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Offseason workout footage is fun for us fans but isn’t indicative of anything. If you want footage of this year’s workouts there are some out there. I’m actually glad most of the footage isn’t out. Previous years we would get a lot more but who cares about that. Just want him to focus on getting better. We’ll see this fall if his game takes another step or not.

Scottie shows us workout videos every offseason. This doesn't mean anything. I like Mobley, I think Mobley's a better player than Scottie (and in a better situation, obviously), but this kind of clip doesn't really tell us anything.

[JB7]

People weigh the value and merit of those selections differently.

I personally do not care about a ROTY and fringe all star appearance lmao also he's getting paid A LOT more now and needs to show he's at least somewhat worth his contract.

Look at this way, we get Scottie on the Max, and the Cavs got Mobley on the super-max.
Bit of a sacrifice on Scotties part, The Raptors made it difficult him. Whereas the Cavs made it easier for Mobley.

This cannot be understated. Those supermax deals are paying close to $10M more per year to Mobley and Cade, vs Scottie.