RealGM 2025 Greatest Peaks Project #3 — 1991 Michael Jordan

[EmpireFalls]

We’re talking about greatest peaks which can only be analyzed by observed performance in a real time period. The 1991 Jordan season definitively happened, in reality, as did the 1974 Kareem, 2013 LeBron, ‘64 Russell, ‘03 Duncan, ‘00 Shaq seasons and so on and so forth.

Attempting to twist the discussion into “what if a player was born 30 years later” is not at all what the Greatest Peaks project is about in my experience. It’s about looking at the best players ever, isolating their peaks, and comparing them as they happened.

[One_and_Done]

We’re talking about greatest peaks which can only be analyzed by observed performance in a real time period. The 1991 Jordan season definitively happened, in reality, as did the 1974 Kareem, 2013 LeBron, ‘64 Russell, ‘03 Duncan, ‘00 Shaq seasons and so on and so forth.

Attempting to twist the discussion into “what if a player was born 30 years later” is not at all what the Greatest Peaks project is about in my experience. It’s about looking at the best players ever, isolating their peaks, and comparing them as they happened.

It helps provide context to what they accomplished in reality, e.g. asking whether Jordan's 91 level of play would have looked as impressive today.

[trelos6]

I'm just going to say something. I know full well it's not going to get any traction here, because he's never made any of the previous peaks lists here - which shouldn't surprise me given the difficulty in getting any of the pre-shot clock guys outside of Mikan their due in here but nonetheless strikes me as a bit astounding in an era-relative context - but I'll say it anyway.

In 1955-56, Paul Arizin recorded the following:

24.2/7.5 on +6.8 rTS in the regular season
28.9/8.4 on + +7.2 rTS in the playoffs

So, one of the best scorers and rebounders(for his position) in the regular season, and then rises in the playoffs while leading his team to the title.

Some might take 1951-52 as his peak, but I'd take 56 given the longer playoff run and career-best playoff numbers.

As these are just box numbers, I'd look at the surrounding seasons for an impact signal(I don't generally like looking too far outside a peak season for information when evaluating peaks, but there's little choice here and the signal is pretty noteworthy imo), where you can see that when Arizin leaves after 1951-52 for his military service, with the the supporting cast looking much the same, the Warriors go from 33-33, -1.08 SRS, and -1.3 Net Rtg to 12-57, -7.75 SRS, and -7.5 Net Rtg.

Not that Arizin should be this high - I'm not arguing for him at #3 - just that he ought to be considered for the list at all - the top 50 or whatever it goes to - if you're looking at it an era-relative context.

I’m willing to consider Arizin around 30. I think others have a better case until then.

[OhayoKD]

We’re talking about greatest peaks which can only be analyzed by observed performance in a real time period. The 1991 Jordan season definitively happened, in reality, as did the 1974 Kareem, 2013 LeBron, ‘64 Russell, ‘03 Duncan, ‘00 Shaq seasons and so on and so forth.

Attempting to twist the discussion into “what if a player was born 30 years later” is not at all what the Greatest Peaks project is about in my experience. It’s about looking at the best players ever, isolating their peaks, and comparing them as they happened.

It helps provide context to what they accomplished in reality, e.g. asking whether Jordan's 91 level of play would have looked as impressive today.

Also as many Jordan voters have functionally conceded. Lebron achieved a much higher level of play "in his own era play" at 24 than Jordan ever did. So it's odd to have an aversion to hypotheticals, while making arguments largely built around a hypothetical.

[Lebronnygoat]

Russell- 62 GOAT D. Not much else. Skillset is unimpressive but the impact/winning is hard to ignore.

Duncan- 03 2nd or 3rd best defender OAT. Anchoring historic defenses as early as 1999:

Spoiler:

u]Tally and Analysis[/u]

Paint-Protection - Duncan

-> 28 PPs
-> 11 EPPs
-> 2 IPPs
-> 2 IAs

Perimeter Defense - Duncan

-> 6 PPD
-> 3 EPPDs
-> 1 IPPDs

During Duncan’s first 40 possessions, I gave him, 28 possessions as a primary or co-primary rim-protector of which he was deemed effective in 11 and ineffective in 2. He was also given 6 possessions as a primary or co–primary perimeter defender, of which he was deemed effective in 3 and ineffective in 1. Additionally, Duncan was given 2 Irrational Avoidances. This means per Possession, Duncan averaged, 0.675 PPs, 0.275 EPPs, 0.05 IPPs, 0.15 PPDs, 0.075 EPPDs, 0.025 IPPDs, and 0.05 IAs.

Robinson overhyped. We see Duncan take over as the #1 early:

Spoiler:

Robinson:
-> 17 PPs
-> 8 EPPs
-> 4 IPPs
-> 1 IA


Duncan:
-> 17 PPs
-> 4 EPPs
-> 4 IPPs
-> 0 IAs


During the Spurs’ first 40 defensive possessions, I gave Duncan, 21 possessions as a primary or co-primary rim-protector of which he was deemed effective in 6 and ineffective in 4. Robinson was given 16 PPs as a primary or co-primary rim-protector of which he was deemed effective in 8 and ineffective in 6. Both had an irrational avoidance. When they shared the court Duncan and Robinson had 17 PPs each with Duncan being deemed effective in 4 and Robinson being deemed effective in 8. Both were deemed ineffective in 4. Robinson additionally had 1 IA

Over 37 possessions Duncan averaged .57 PPs, 0.16 EPPs, 0.11 IPPs, and 0.03 IAs.

Over 31 possessions Robinson averaged 0.58 PPs, 0.26 EPPs, 0.13 IPPs. 0.032 IAs.

Underrated PM. Very good scoring. Goes from 23/13/4 on +5rTS to 25/15/5 on +5rTS. Notable rise. Even efficiency is a little better. Great two-way play.

Walton- 77. ATG D. Good PM. Skillset not great but I’m taking over any Jordan.

https://discord.com/channels/807803459331555359/807803459331555363/1334671910348390475

Playmaking, rebounding, scoring one play

https://discord.com/channels/807803459331555359/807803459331555363/1334672464147517591

Many times Walton draws a triple or double to contest their shot, but it technically leads a 4 on 3 advantage to get the rebound and put it back easily. And is this a form of playmaking.

-3.4 without
+7.9 with

76 Portland also was a -3.3 team which is consistent without him79 blazers only won 45 games +1.1 team
Ron Brewer was added, Thompson was added and Owen’s took a huge step up from 10 pts to 18 pts
Looking at the 77 Blazers SRS compared to their top 5 and top 10 teams in their league along with the 91 Bulls. And it looks identical for 5 best teams, and similar for 10 best teams

But now with Walton’s 65 games, if we do SRS when Walton played vs the top 5 and top 10 teams in the league, Walton’s team will have a better SRS than even the 91 Bulls

77 they added talent. In 90s expansion dilutes.


Bulls have better PSRS but let’s be for real, it’s easy to build a strong SRS vs weak teams, Walton faced an above average team every series or even a team better than his, whereas Jordan had the huge gap of a team and played 2 below average teams in a row (Knicks and Sixers).


I think the Pistons in 1991 were just an above average team atp
Still a good team but they were not their RS selves
1991 Lakers ran off Magic and Divac.

So 77 Blazers with Walton better team than 91 Bulls.

Walton is definitely over MJ one year

[trevon2x]

1. 1991 Michael Jordan (1990, 1989, 1988, 1992, 1993, 1996)
I won't dive too deep into this one, but what I saw from the Lakers series, especially Games 1 and 2, inclined me to put this here. Would love to hear some counter arguments, however.
2. 2016 Stephen Curry (2021, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2015)
I'm just going to say it, outside a couple Jordan years I don't see any regular season in NBA history that is locked over 2016 Stephen Curry. I also feel as if there is no better offensive season than 2016 Stephen. When we look at elite off-ball offensive players like Klay Thompson, Reggie Miller and Ray Allen, these guys are providing you limited value on the ball. Same thing vice versa, I feel as if elite on-ball offensive players like James Harden, Luka Dončić and even LeBron aren't able to provide noticeable off-ball value, if any. If it's not blatantly obvious by now, Stephen Curry is the clear anomaly here. When we talk about on-ball offense (scoring+playmaking), Curry is able to do both at an elite level, while also being the best off-ball scorer and playmaker in the NBA. The mastery of those 4 traits combined is unlike anything we've ever seen before, and that is just his skillset. We see how Steph is able to allow Draymond to maximize him offensively, and how he is able to make a defensive-slanted roster a top 3 regular season offense in NBA history (could have potentially been #1 if the 04 Mavs didn't play in one of the toughest defensive eras in NBA history, and if Steph, Klay and Draymond played more than 34 MPG). I also feel as if people underrate this season because of the playoffs (Skewed due to misinterpretations of him as a basketball player, dealt with injury, RS far bigger sample size) and myths about his defense (positive defender due to value provided from defensive playmaking + ability to hold his own against opposing point guards such as Russell Westbrook and Tony Parker). What gets understated about this season is his offensive situation, Klay Thompson is not that reliable shot creator, and Draymond Green, albeit in his offensive peak, still has multiple noticeable offensive flaws that are masked by Steph and Klay. I think this is the best off-ball season we have ever seen, while also being one of the best on-ball scoring seasons ever, to go along with an uncanny ability to space the floor, which raised the floor of the offense to a +8.1 rORTG! I think this season deserves far more respect, and I also think this season should open our minds to how much we should truly value playoffs.
3. 2001 Shaquille O’Neal (2000)
I think 2001 Shaq is Shaq's peak due to what he did in the playoffs, when we're talking about series like 01 Kings, 01 Sixers and 01 Spurs, he just decimated very elite personnel such as Vlade Divac + Chris Webber, David Robinson + Tim Duncan, and then the DPOY in Dikembe Mutombo. I also believe the efficiency gets underrated due to the amount of putbacks he got, and on top of all of this he is still providing value as a playmaker with his post gravity, along with anchoring a -8.2 on-court rDRTG throughout that run. I feel as if when we talk about guys like Kobe and A.I., we always mention how they played in the dead ball era, but Shaq needs his respect for playing in this same era, and playing some of the best defenses we've ever seen. I feel as if he coasted in the regular season, and it doesn't give us an accurate representation of who he was as a basketball player that season.

[mdonnelly1989]

We’re talking about greatest peaks which can only be analyzed by observed performance in a real time period. The 1991 Jordan season definitively happened, in reality, as did the 1974 Kareem, 2013 LeBron, ‘64 Russell, ‘03 Duncan, ‘00 Shaq seasons and so on and so forth.

Attempting to twist the discussion into “what if a player was born 30 years later” is not at all what the Greatest Peaks project is about in my experience. It’s about looking at the best players ever, isolating their peaks, and comparing them as they happened.

It helps provide context to what they accomplished in reality, e.g. asking whether Jordan's 91 level of play would have looked as impressive today.

Also as many Jordan voters have functionally conceded. Lebron achieved a much higher level of play "in his own era play" at 24 than Jordan ever did. So it's odd to have an aversion to hypotheticals, while making arguments largely built around a hypothetical.

Especially

1. Lebron never one a defensive MVP and also is considered at minimum a top 3 defensive SG of all time.

2. Lebron is not even ranked as top 5 maybe not even top 10 defensively at his own position.

3. I say defense because I hold a lot of weight during prime. And to me their prime offensive impact are about equal. Although I prefer the assassin that MJ was vs LeBron

[One_and_Done]

It helps provide context to what they accomplished in reality, e.g. asking whether Jordan's 91 level of play would have looked as impressive today.

Also as many Jordan voters have functionally conceded. Lebron achieved a much higher level of play "in his own era play" at 24 than Jordan ever did. So it's odd to have an aversion to hypotheticals, while making arguments largely built around a hypothetical.

Especially

1. Lebron never one a defensive MVP and also is considered at minimum a top 3 defensive SG of all time.

2. Lebron is not even ranked as top 5 maybe not even top 10 defensively at his own position.

3. I say defense because I hold a lot of weight during prime. And to me their prime offensive impact are about equal. Although I prefer the assassin that MJ was vs LeBron

I recommend taking this to the #1 thread, but I will say that it's pretty obvious LeBron was a much better defensive player than Jordan. Counting all-defensive teams is not a serious approach to evaluating who was the better defender. According to voters Duncan was never DPOY either, which was always ridiculous. By your logic Jordan was a better defender than Duncan too.

[OhayoKD]

Also as many Jordan voters have functionally conceded. Lebron achieved a much higher level of play "in his own era play" at 24 than Jordan ever did. So it's odd to have an aversion to hypotheticals, while making arguments largely built around a hypothetical.

Especially

1. Lebron never one a defensive MVP and also is considered at minimum a top 3 defensive SG of all time.

2. Lebron is not even ranked as top 5 maybe not even top 10 defensively at his own position.

3. I say defense because I hold a lot of weight during prime. And to me their prime offensive impact are about equal. Although I prefer the assassin that MJ was vs LeBron

I recommend taking this to the #1 thread, but I will say that it's pretty obvious LeBron was a much better defensive player than Jordan. Counting all-defensive teams is not a serious approach to evaluating who was the better defender. According to voters Duncan was never DPOY either, which was always ridiculous. By your logic Jordan was a better defender than Duncan too.

Yep:

Lebron 09-21

-3.68 drtg difference

Every extended sample for Chicago Jordan

:88-98
+1.1 drtg difference
90-99
+0.2 drtg difference
85-98
-1.1 drtg difference
84-99
-.5 drtg difference

Lebron was already both a better man and paint defender by 22:
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=116555458#p116555458

Lebron is obviously a much bigger outlier compared to forwards offensively than Jordan is relative to other guards (actually he looks outright better if we prioritize full games and full seasons for impact), so I'm not sure what the point of the positional comparison is.

If defense really matters to you, then you shouldn't be pushing Jordan as top 3, never mind top 1.

[OhayoKD]

Also may as well vote.

Vote

Will add more later but

64 Bill Russell

-> Leads massive rs outlier with no evidence of impressive help playing way more minutes than everyone
-> RS outlier is dominant in the postseason
-> potential peak of a player who effectively lead two different dynasties with two completely different supporting casts and won back to back against historically strong competition as a player-coach on a roster that seems to have been incapable of making the playoffs without.


I am keeping things mostly era-relative this time around so Russell is a simple 1 to argue for. A full Russell vs Jordan case is made in page 2.


2. 03 Tim Duncan

Will just copy and paste what I wrote for him in the 2003 RPOY

Spoiler:

Voting Post

1. Tim Duncan

60-wins and a +5.6 SRS with Duncan averaging 6 more minutes than 2nd-in-minutes sophomore Tony Parker and 13 more minutes than #2 David Robinson. Duncan sees substantial time without #2s past and present with San Antonio going 15-3 without Robinson (68-win pace) and 10-3 without Manu (63-win pace, statmuse isn't showing net). From 01-07, the Spurs played at a 41-win pace without Duncan posting a net-rating of +0.4. A sample largely informed by 2004/2005 and a Spurs team with significantly improved iterations of Manu and Parker. With RAPM, Duncan, despite his best years coming with a #2 who plays his natural position, and an unusually large amount of minutes spent with said #2's poor backups, scores 2nd best behind KG of all players relevant to this ballot. In playoff-rapm he looks like the outright best.

With that we have a strong POY case, but what cements it is the postseason:

Playoff Offensive Rating: +1.80 (83rd), Playoff Defensive Rating: -8.65 (14th)
Playoff SRS: +10.66 (47th), Total SRS Increase through Playoffs: +3.36 (34th)
Average Playoff Opponent Offense: +2.75 (34th), Average Playoff Opponent Defense: -1.70 (59th)

Playoff Heliocentrism: 50.8% (6th of 84 teams) - Duncan
Playoff Wingmen: 29.5% (76th) - Ginobili & Robinson
Playoff Bench: 19.7% (54th)

Round 1: Phoenix Suns (+1.6), won 4-2, by +5.3 points a game (+6.9 SRS eq)
Round 2: Los Angeles Lakers (+4.8), won 4-2, by +5.8 points a game (+10.6 SRS eq)
Round 3: Dallas Mavericks (+7.5), won 4-2, by +5.0 points a game (+12.5 SRS eq)
Round 4: New Jersey Nets (+6.9), won 4-2, by +5.8 points a game (+12.7 SRS eq)

The spurs jump from the 76th highest SRS to the 46th PSRS going from +5.6 to +10 as Duncan goes from averaging 6 more minutes than anybody else to 8 more minutes and ups his points, assists, assist% rebounds, rebound %, blocks, and block percentage (.1 tov increase, .1 steal decrease, .1% steal percentage drop). He also sees across-the-board improvement in ben's advanced box, and, by a box-score interpretation that really doesn't capture what he offers as the primary focus of the opposing offense on >50% of his team's defensive possessions, the Spurs run more through him than all but 2 other bigs:

The problem was that all of his teammates were the wrong ages. David Robinson was 37, the future Hall of Famer going into his final year, protecting his body by playing only 25 minutes a game. In contrast Tony Parker was only 20 and Manu Ginobili was 25 (but he was a late bloomer, at this point mostly notable for being an insane ball-hawk on defense). Pretty much all of his great teammates were either too old or too young. I don’t want to sell that it was a bad supporting cast . . . It’s just that there was no way they were going to be winning anything without ‘03 Duncan. Do you know how many bigs on this list broke 45% Heliocentrism for the regular season? ‘80 Kareem, ‘74 Kareem and ‘01 Shaq (I’m choosing not to consider Bird and LeBron bigs for the purposes of this list). How about 50% Heliocentrism in the playoffs? ‘74 Kareem is it. As all-time seasons with a big man carrying a team to greatness go, ‘03 Duncan has got to be on the short list for that discussion.

.

For comparison the 2000 Lakers, led by a far more lauded pinnacle, post a psrs of +7, a substantially worse postseason performance even with 8 additional minutes of Kobe Bryant.

Duncan also does this with Popavich, not "standard-deviation above any coach ever statistically" Phil Jackson. And he does it forced out of his natural position with a co-star who shares massive overlap in terms of skllset. Points ignored when certain, let's say, "context" is provided to diminish him

 I’d be remiss not to acknowledge Popovich more, who, for my money, is the greatest coach in NBA history. He transitioned the Spurs from a defensively-oriented team that orbited around its twin-towers, to a perpetual motion, Euro-style offense built around perimeter players who could pass and shoot. This morphed into a brief offensive dynasty, peaking in 2014 with one of the greatest teams of all-time, unheard of for an ensemble production that lacked a troupe of stars. Popovich’s success on both sides of the ball does take some of the shine off of Duncan for me.
...
Duncan’s portability isn’t top-notch either; he’s savvy enough to scale down his offense (as he did in later years), although his limited passing prevents him from matching Garnett’s impact in a secondary role. His longevity was fantastic, tallying 17 All-Star seasons by my valuations, tied for tops in this series. He, KG and Wilt all have similar peaks and era-adjusted career value, and thus feel nearly interchangeable in these slots. So, while Garnett and him are neck and neck, if I were forced to choose, I’d oh-so-barely side with Duncan. (Are ties allowed?)

Duncan is the most portable, scalable, proven, winningest, and, most importantly, valuable player in the league. Simply, put he's the best player of the early 2000s; peak, prime and career. Maybe the best since Jabbar, maybe even Russell (era-relative). He was not merely consistent, but consistently spectacular. And at his best, he got better in the biggest games, the ones titles are won or lost with.

For the true "most dominant", I think a unanimous vote would be appropriate.

[3. 93 Hakeem

Looks generally comparable to the two more prominent and successful contemporaries via rs signals despite not being used properly schematically until he was 30 (and turned into a contender for the era's premier creator) and is a massive playoff-riser both by team elevation and translation of individual numbers. Looked very impressive defensively in supposed non-peak years compared to everyone but peak Duncan (granting that he may have gotten "hot" in 86 in terms of defensive efficacy given the absurd results), and multi-year playoff samples see him as a strong creator even pre-rudy.

Walton and Jordan will likely be my the next two in some order (and I don't feel great about not including Walton now).

Will emphasize for people that RAPM really tells us nothing about him thus far beyond him being good to a vague degree. He's tied with Drob over a sample though I imagine Drob will end up gaining separation simply based of his arguably era-best RS signals

Edit

Meh. Can't really form a solid positive 1-year case for Hakeem over Walton. Will keep Hakeem because he is actually getting more than 1 other vote but Lebronny's argument really isn't one I can seriously counter beyond pointing out a lack of replication for someone who never had any opportunity to.

[jalengreen]

LeBron vs Jordan debate in the #3 thread is hilarious I'm sorry

Truly the Godwin's law of basketball

[ceoofkobefans]

This will prolly be the last ballot i dont go too into depth for but we still gotta get through MJ who was obviously 2 but is instead obviously 3 so lets get this over with

1. 1991 Michael Jordan (>1990>1989)

Goat scoring season combined with elite off ball play and all time playmaking while being an elite guard defender. Clear best player on the best team in the league and the clear best scorer and playmaker on by far the best O in the league. not much to say hes the goat non bron peak.

2. 2000 Shaquille O'Neal

00 is the one year shaq combines his sub goat clear all time O with elite defense which is enough for him to be my 3rd highest peak

3. 2003 Tim Duncan

All time two way impact floor raising a very mid team to best in the league level, rising in the playoffs, and capping it off with arguably the best finals by a non bron mj shaq player ever.

[Verticality]

To me 1 and 2 are still Olajuwon and Duncan. Two way giants winning with unmatched efforts. My third will be Michael Jordan. Most Valuable Player and 1st All-NBA Defensive team on an epic Chicago side that won 61 games and roared through the postseason.

I leave Bill Russell off but must acknowledge his accomplishments stay unmatched. The ultimate winner. I think it is hard to peak highest without scoring but his time is soon. I also will think on Wilt Chamberlain and Magic Johnson.

1 94 Hakeem Olajuwon
2 03 Tim Duncan
3 91 Michael Jordan

[Elpolo_14]

This will prolly be the last ballot i dont go too into depth for but we still gotta get through MJ who was obviously 2 but is instead obviously 3 so lets get this over with
.

That mean you gonna go more serious in the next post? That great

[ceoofkobefans]

This will prolly be the last ballot i dont go too into depth for but we still gotta get through MJ who was obviously 2 but is instead obviously 3 so lets get this over with
.

That mean you gonna go more serious in the next post? That great

yea after MJ and shaq go and there's actual serious consideration for me on who should go where

[falcolombardi]

1- michael jordan (1991>1990>1989)

I honestly dont think there is any real or noteworthy difference between these years to guarantee 91 being the default pick other than winning the ring (and beneffiting from facing weaker units in scoring efficiency) but also a ring is admittedly a decent reason to pick between two comparable years (1990 and 1991)

I pick jordan here because while i think he has historically beneffited from high points per game being naturally a bit valued over anythingh else...is not the less true no one has combined super high volume in good efficiency for as many years as he did and maintaining it in the postseason

Scoring at that level even today remains incredibly impactful when combined with low turnovers and capable playmaking to play off that scoring threat (as we saw with shai in 2025 that a defensive minded roster with limited scoring/ballhandling can be heavily buoyed/floor raised offensively by such a player)

Add a sometimes overvalued but still clear plus defense and this aechetype is just a huge value add in any era or context, potentially translating better into modern perimeter engine oriented basketball than 2 way big in era peers like hakeem

2- hakeem (1993>1994>1995)

Monster defensive player who with the exception of russel (and this with the question of whether russel would maintain that impact going forward in modern eras) or potential peak wembayama (a total physical outlier) is probably the best and most complete defensive profile we have seen

A guy as capable and strong to face vs post up behemoths yet agile enough to hang up outside the paint, fast and light footed enough to follow players in transition. If you wanted to create a perfect dpoy big for any era it would look very close to hakeem (or maybe wenbayama)

But is the multifaceted offensive ability that makes him stand out above most atg defensive bigs

Not only was he a resilient and capable post scorer (with some limitations against blitzes and fast help defense) which even today would have a lot of value to punish mismatches and weak post defenders alike even if you dont want to run as many possesions through his post ups as rockets did

But i am intrigued by his raw shooting and ballhandling ability that with a bit more development may develop a driving game similar to what giannis does today (if maybr not quite as good due to a weaker handle, a underated giannis quality)

The sky is the limit for who i consider the most talented player of his era, just a bit more dependant on theory than jordan who has a more straightforward translation case going forward

3- tim duncan 2003 (2002)

This one was tricky, between wilt 67 season putting together a top 2 defense/top 2 offense year, duncan 03 carrying a team offense while playing all time defense, shaq monster 2000 regular season putting more regular season amd defensive value than usual, bill russel atg outlier defensive season in 64, curry, magic or jokic all time offense peaks and many others that deserve consideration

Essentially my logic has been to weight modern game more and somewhat subjectively evaluate how well i think each player game would translate going forward into modern basketball. Valuing strictly relative to era feels a bit unfair in a sport that grew and changed so much but also punishin in era outliers too much for how the game changed (sometimes by drastic rules changes like the 3 point line they had no way of predicting) does too

So who do i think would dominate more in aggregate across most eras? Sadly i dont think it is russel whose lack of a strong offensive scoring game may make it very hard for him to keep up with someone like duncan (unless he was a lot better defensively at the same time which seems unlikely)

Jokic and curry are interesting considerations, proven monster impact in the modern game, but their games have had somewhat sizable drop offs in the playoffs i think sometimes get glossed over, curry playoff drop off statistically is similar to the much maligned chris pauls or james hardens of the world

Jokic has had some consistent drop off against big front courts (wolves, 20 lakers, 25 clippers) and teams that can kill passinh lanes and denyng him easy entry passes like oklahoma, which is honestly in my view a bit of a inherent issue to being a center who depends to a degree on other players getting him the ball in good positions (is harder to take a guard or point forward out of a play by denying him the ball or entry post pass) magic is an atg offense engine with surprising post season resilience but also played in a era of much less sophisticated defenses in my view

Garnett is someone i thought off too being a clear plus offensive player and a all time defender, as did i think of wilt

So why duncan? Honestly kind of a elimination process, his 2 way ability makes him stand out over a player like russel in todays game, i value his isolation scoring a bit more than garnett perimeter defense edge, he had that hakeem esque resilience of keeping his scoring volume and efficiency against stronger playoffs defenses

[VanWest82]

91MJ
00Shaq

1967 Wilt

Jordan, Lebron, Shaq, and Kareem (my #1-4 peaks, respectively) were all two-way physical freaks of their era. Wilt was probably the biggest era-relative freak in NBA history. Lots has been written to throw cold water on his 50 ppg '62 season given it doesn't hold up as well on a rate basis compared to other great scorers, but playing every minute of a season as a 7'1 guy at a 131 pace (21k total possessions, not including playoffs!) seems pretty underrated nevermind the fact he averaged 50 and 25. Sit down, Giannis. That's a real Freak.

So why '67 and not '62 or some other year? Because he finally decided he wanted to win more than just dominate statistically. I don't knock him for basically copying Russell's play style that year. If anything, the fact he did that and outplayed him so badly made it plain as day that he was the better talent. Shades of '91 Finals. He still wasn't quite Bill defensively, but his two-way impact that year was better than anything we saw from Russell imo. Further, '67 Sixers - mainly because of Wilt - were the best team in NBA history to that point. Feels relevant. I have Russell over Wilt on my all time list for his consistent impact on winning. Wilt let too many things get in the way in other years, and so even though he was utterly dominant for most of his career and the better talent between him and Russell, I just can't quite put his career above Russell's. But this is about peaks. Peak Wilt was better than peak Russell, and pretty much everyone else too.

[falcolombardi]

91MJ
00Shaq

1967 Wilt

Jordan, Lebron, Shaq, and Kareem (my #1-4 peaks, respectively) were all two-way physical freaks of their era. Wilt was probably the biggest era-relative freak in NBA history. Lots has been written to throw cold water on his 50 ppg '62 season given it doesn't hold up as well on a rate basis compared to other great scorers, but playing every minute of a season as a 7'1 guy at a 131 pace (21k total possessions, not including playoffs!) seems pretty underrated nevermind the fact he averaged 50 and 25. Sit down, Giannis. That's a real Freak.

So why '67 and not '62 or some other year? Because he finally decided he wanted to win more than just dominate statistically. I don't knock him for basically copying Russell's play style that year. If anything, the fact he did that and outplayed him so badly made it plain as day that he was the better talent. Shades of '91 Finals. He still wasn't quite Bill defensively, but his two-way impact that year was better than anything we saw from Russell imo. Further, '67 Sixers - mainly because of Wilt - were the best team in NBA history to that point. I have Russell over Wilt on my all time list for his consistent impact on winning. Wilt let too many things get in the way in other years, and so even though he was utterly dominant for most of his career and the better talent between him and Russell, I just can't quite put his career above Russell's. But this is about peaks. Peak Wilt was better than peak Russell, and pretty much everyone else too.

Just to kickstart some discussion

What let you to pick wilt over more modern 2 way titan centers like hakeem and duncan?

The latter 2 didnt necesarrily lead a era equivalent of the 67 sixers dominancr fwiw but they led worse rosters for their era to rings too

[VanWest82]

91MJ
00Shaq

1967 Wilt

Jordan, Lebron, Shaq, and Kareem (my #1-4 peaks, respectively) were all two-way physical freaks of their era. Wilt was probably the biggest era-relative freak in NBA history. Lots has been written to throw cold water on his 50 ppg '62 season given it doesn't hold up as well on a rate basis compared to other great scorers, but playing every minute of a season as a 7'1 guy at a 131 pace (21k total possessions, not including playoffs!) seems pretty underrated nevermind the fact he averaged 50 and 25. Sit down, Giannis. That's a real Freak.

So why '67 and not '62 or some other year? Because he finally decided he wanted to win more than just dominate statistically. I don't knock him for basically copying Russell's play style that year. If anything, the fact he did that and outplayed him so badly made it plain as day that he was the better talent. Shades of '91 Finals. He still wasn't quite Bill defensively, but his two-way impact that year was better than anything we saw from Russell imo. Further, '67 Sixers - mainly because of Wilt - were the best team in NBA history to that point. I have Russell over Wilt on my all time list for his consistent impact on winning. Wilt let too many things get in the way in other years, and so even though he was utterly dominant for most of his career and the better talent between him and Russell, I just can't quite put his career above Russell's. But this is about peaks. Peak Wilt was better than peak Russell, and pretty much everyone else too.

Just to kickstart some discussion

What let you to pick wilt over more modern 2 way titan centers like hakeem and duncan?

The latter 2 didnt necesarrily lead a era equivalent of the 67 sixers dominancr fwiw but they led worse rosters for their era to rings too

I just think Wilt was a bigger era-relative outlier than Hakeem. Shaq is the better comparison, both stylistically, and in terms of putting it altogether for one historic, monster season where it just seemed like they were too dominant to the point of being unfair. I never got that with Hakeem who was a great two-way big who refined his scoring and learned how to pass just enough to beat out his worthy contemporaries in years following the retirement of the league's best player. Wilt didn't have contemporaries in '67. Duncan probably doesn't belong in the conversation yet.

[Ollie Coraline]

Bill Russell 62

The most decorated player ever. Won the most. No one talks about him the best but when you think about it. He’s the only player to win as player and coach. The only player to win at least 3 titles with different second best teammates. It was argued well the last minutes matter and Russell always wins those too. And what seals it is he was able to win when he didn’t have great help. Several times. It’s a team sport. But if you’re always winning no matter what. Maybe that says alot about you.

I choose 62 because that year he had his best scoring in the playoffs and they fall 22 points of net rating when he isn’t there. They lost all the games too but I have been informed net is better to use.

Hakeem 94

27/12/4.

DPOY, MVP, and breaks through to win it finally. Hakeem was top 20 in every statistical category on a weak team and found a way to win. He had shooters and key role players but it was an incredible effort. Not easy to pick him over great players like MJ and Wilt but the project master’s talk on adversity admittedly sways. Hakeem had all the difficulty throughout. But he found a way.


Jordan 91

31/6/6

Maybe could've gone with 90 if I looked more into it, but as of right now I believe 91 is where it's at, with his sweep over DET and dominant victory over Magic’s LAL. Winning six in eight, he never lost a favorite, being a consistently good man defender while also scoring an incredible amount.