Bucks News, Trade Ideas, Transactions - Livingston Back on a 1 Year Deal - Page 76

[tedbrogen]

Brook was a great roll man.

We just couldn’t use him in that capacity much, because it’d leave us 4 on 5 defensively way too much. That’s a big part of why he was 30 feet from the rim above the break so much. Just to be able to get back to drop position before the other team is laying it in

He was ineffective as a roll man because his slowness allowed teams to easily hedge and recover on the screen.

So ineffective at 1.20 ppp and 79th percentile in the league.

It wasn’t his inability to finish as a roll man, it was that the league figured out if Brook rolls, you simply run after a miss or make and you’ll get an easy bucket since Brook couldn’t get back.

There was just simply no way to counter that.

[ShootingtheJ]

This says more abut the value of VORP or SHWARP than it does about Kuzma. I laugh at all the posters using these initials in their analysis as a proven weapon.

The stats I used above speak for themselves. I don't want a player like that unless he is low usage and a great defender.

I didn't need SHWARMA to tell me Kuzma is bad, just as I didn't need it to tell me BP is a very good player.

I'm sure I've been wrong on a player, but I picked out Rollins early when he was coming off the bench for the Herd. I liked Livingston and he has shown up (for now).I was a big Green fan from the beginning. And I was pining for Turner for several years. Point is I never used MORP or CARP for any of it.

There hasn't been a player analysis I have made over the years by watching the player and using the old stats (shooting percentage, et al) that have shown me that my analysis has been wrong.

But all of you can use DWEEB or SCHMUCK all you want.

If you want to make the claim that Kuzma makes up being bad offensively with good defense, go for it, but I've never seen him as a good defender.

So the part of the data your missing is the correlation between volume and efficiency. Yes, Kuzma has always been inefficient, largely because he takes tons of contested shots. In prior years, he was actually one of the more efficient players in the game at shooting those contested shots. He's always been a chucker, attempting as many as 22 field goals a game.

Last season in Milwaukee, his field goal attempts decreased dramatically, and his shot quality increased. We should have seen a rather dramatic spike in efficiency. However, due to the degradation of Kuzma's skill level, likely caused by a offseason of complete inactivity, he wasn't able to make the easier shots at past efficiencies.

Simply put, not a field goal percentages are created equally, which is why we have more of the advanced stats you mock. Once you understand their role, you'll grow to appreciate them, because they'll often substantiate the eye test. Kuzma isnt my kind of player, but the player we saw last year was him at his absolute worst.

Alternatively, maybe Kuz is incapable of being efficient even on low volume, high shot quality. (Someone already covered how that is the case for RJ Barrett) And if that’s the case for Kuz, he’s legit one of the worst rotational players in the league.

And maybe you saw Kuz at his worst because now that he’s on the downside of his athleticism (the only unique skill he ever possessed) that he is only going to get worse every year going forward.

In the past he shot a higher % on wide open 3, open midranges, and shots at the hoop. Part of Kuzma's decline in athletism was simply from being over his usual weight. Easily remedied with an active offseason.

He'll likely be closer to usual mediocre self next season, but on a different team

[tedbrogen]

So the part of the data your missing is the correlation between volume and efficiency. Yes, Kuzma has always been inefficient, largely because he takes tons of contested shots. In prior years, he was actually one of the more efficient players in the game at shooting those contested shots. He's always been a chucker, attempting as many as 22 field goals a game.

Last season in Milwaukee, his field goal attempts decreased dramatically, and his shot quality increased. We should have seen a rather dramatic spike in efficiency. However, due to the degradation of Kuzma's skill level, likely caused by a offseason of complete inactivity, he wasn't able to make the easier shots at past efficiencies.

Simply put, not a field goal percentages are created equally, which is why we have more of the advanced stats you mock. Once you understand their role, you'll grow to appreciate them, because they'll often substantiate the eye test. Kuzma isnt my kind of player, but the player we saw last year was him at his absolute worst.

Alternatively, maybe Kuz is incapable of being efficient even on low volume, high shot quality. (Someone already covered how that is the case for RJ Barrett) And if that’s the case for Kuz, he’s legit one of the worst rotational players in the league.

And maybe you saw Kuz at his worst because now that he’s on the downside of his athleticism (the only unique skill he ever possessed) that he is only going to get worse every year going forward.

I the past he shot a higher % on wide open 3, open midranges, and shots at the hoop. Part of Kuzma's decline in athletism was simply from being over his usual weight. Easily remedied with an active offseason.

He'll likely be closer to usual mediocre self next season, but on a different team

Oh good, so the only chance he’s even mediocre when left wide open is that he takes this offseason serious when he already didn’t last offseason. And then if he does take it serious, he’ll then need to adjust his perception of his abilities and only take open looks. And even then he’s still an bad fit because he’d be taking minutes from guys who are deadly when left open (GTJ and AJG) because the only minutes truly available for him are at the three.

[giannis and 1]

I don’t get this idea that Kuz is going to have good stats or fool teams into thinking he’s something he’s not. Unless he has the best three point shooting hot streak of his career (doubtful), everyone knows who he is.

You could get by without playing him if he’s the only nonshooter on the floor and have a smart enough to coach to only use him as a cutter to the basket.

The Bucks don’t have a smart coach. Kuz won’t increase his value, all he’ll do until the deadline is cost them games by allowing someone to camp in the lane and wait for GA because they won’t respect Kuz and will live with him shooting threes or doing his Gadz level layups.

Good post. There are revisionist Kuzma supporters, just as there is for any bad player.

Kuzma has been nothing, if not consistent, in his career. To be that bad next to Giannis is hard to do, but he did it.

Actually Kuzma has not been consistent at all. Last year was the worst year of his career by a wide margin. He's always been mediocre because of his overzealous shot appetite, but last year was a different level for him. He was normally above replacement level yearly, until last year, when he was the worst player in the league.

All that said, I still think he'll be dealt before the season starts, as even at his best he's a brutal fit next to Giannis.

Kuzma and a 2nd for Wiggins.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

its weird how much hoping kuzma improves next year is controversial

there isnt anybody here that wouldnt move him for just about anything if other assets werent attached. i find it odd theres controversy there hoping for some improvement....or suggesting its possible....

i think its almost impossible that hes worse. hes not even going to play if hes the same for ffs how could he be worse?

[-Jragon-]

its weird how much hoping kuzma improves next year is controversial

there isnt anybody here that wouldnt move him for just about anything if other assets werent attached. i find it odd theres controversy there hoping for some improvement....or suggesting its possible....

i think its almost impossible that hes worse. hes not even going to play if hes the same for ffs how could he be worse?

An off season/training camp knowing you're on a championship possible team and knowing the role you're expected to fill. How many real practices are there after the trade deadline..there is hope

[tedbrogen]

its weird how much hoping kuzma improves next year is controversial

there isnt anybody here that wouldnt move him for just about anything if other assets werent attached. i find it odd theres controversy there hoping for some improvement....or suggesting its possible....

i think its almost impossible that hes worse. hes not even going to play if hes the same for ffs how could he be worse?

I think you’re confusing ‘hoping’ with ‘realism’.
Do I hope Kuz is better next season if he’s on the Bucks? Yes! Do I realistically think he’ll ever not be an awful fit next to GA? No chance in Snell.

[ShootingtheJ]

Alternatively, maybe Kuz is incapable of being efficient even on low volume, high shot quality. (Someone already covered how that is the case for RJ Barrett) And if that’s the case for Kuz, he’s legit one of the worst rotational players in the league.

And maybe you saw Kuz at his worst because now that he’s on the downside of his athleticism (the only unique skill he ever possessed) that he is only going to get worse every year going forward.

I the past he shot a higher % on wide open 3, open midranges, and shots at the hoop. Part of Kuzma's decline in athletism was simply from being over his usual weight. Easily remedied with an active offseason.

He'll likely be closer to usual mediocre self next season, but on a different team

Oh good, so the only chance he’s even mediocre when left wide open is that he takes this offseason serious when he already didn’t last offseason. And then if he does take it serious, he’ll then need to adjust his perception of his abilities and only take open looks. And even then he’s still an bad fit because he’d be taking minutes from guys who are deadly when left open (GTJ and AJG) because the only minutes truly available for him are at the three.

Yup, that's pretty much it

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

its weird how much hoping kuzma improves next year is controversial

there isnt anybody here that wouldnt move him for just about anything if other assets werent attached. i find it odd theres controversy there hoping for some improvement....or suggesting its possible....

i think its almost impossible that hes worse. hes not even going to play if hes the same for ffs how could he be worse?

I think you’re confusing ‘hoping’ with ‘realism’.
Do I hope Kuz is better next season if he’s on the Bucks? Yes! Do I realistically think he’ll ever not be an awful fit next to GA? No chance in Snell.

i know. thats my whole point. hes either going to be better or he wont play any minutes of consequence ever again.

but why go on and on? why butt heads over it? people are suggesting maybe...just maybe....he could carve a small role on the bench brigade or to create a different look from time to time. why is that such a thing to you that you have to say no effing way to the maybe? of course theres a maybe. theres always a maybe when your talking about such slight improvement for a small temporary role.

it was a good trade financially for this ballclub. it kickstarted the mini rebuild we all wanted. now we gotta buy a year using him here and there or never again. i just dont see what the big deal is. hes this years version of last years patc with a bigger salary slot when it comes time to deal

[tedbrogen]

its weird how much hoping kuzma improves next year is controversial

there isnt anybody here that wouldnt move him for just about anything if other assets werent attached. i find it odd theres controversy there hoping for some improvement....or suggesting its possible....

i think its almost impossible that hes worse. hes not even going to play if hes the same for ffs how could he be worse?

I think you’re confusing ‘hoping’ with ‘realism’.
Do I hope Kuz is better next season if he’s on the Bucks? Yes! Do I realistically think he’ll ever not be an awful fit next to GA? No chance in Snell.

i know. thats my whole point. hes either going to be better or he wont play any minutes of consequence ever again.

but why go on and on? why butt heads over it? people are suggesting maybe...just maybe....he could carve a small role on the bench brigade or to create a different look from time to time. why is that such a thing to you that you have to say no effing way to the maybe? of course theres a maybe. theres always a maybe when your talking about such slight improvement for a small temporary role.

it was a good trade financially for this ballclub. it kickstarted the mini rebuild we all wanted. now we gotta buy a year using him here and there or never again. i just dont see what the big deal is. hes this years version of last years patc with a bigger salary slot when it comes time to deal

It’s different than PatC because there was no chance PatC was going to start at SF and play 25 or 30mpg for as long as he was on the roster. There’s a massive chance that is the case for Kuz. That is why some of us want him gone at all costs before the season.

I know some are going to pretend his treatment in games four and five is the future but there’s a much larger sample size that shows he’s likely starting opening night at SF if he’s on the roster and that’s hilariously depressing.

Any minute Kuz spends on the floor with GA is a travesty.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

I think you’re confusing ‘hoping’ with ‘realism’.
Do I hope Kuz is better next season if he’s on the Bucks? Yes! Do I realistically think he’ll ever not be an awful fit next to GA? No chance in Snell.

i know. thats my whole point. hes either going to be better or he wont play any minutes of consequence ever again.

but why go on and on? why butt heads over it? people are suggesting maybe...just maybe....he could carve a small role on the bench brigade or to create a different look from time to time. why is that such a thing to you that you have to say no effing way to the maybe? of course theres a maybe. theres always a maybe when your talking about such slight improvement for a small temporary role.

it was a good trade financially for this ballclub. it kickstarted the mini rebuild we all wanted. now we gotta buy a year using him here and there or never again. i just dont see what the big deal is. hes this years version of last years patc with a bigger salary slot when it comes time to deal

It’s different than PatC because there was no chance PatC was going to start at SF and play 25 or 30mpg for as long as he was on the roster. There’s a massive chance that is the case for Kuz. That is why some of us want him gone at all costs before the season.

I know some are going to pretend his treatment in games four and five is the future but there’s a much larger sample size that shows he’s likely starting opening night at SF if he’s on the roster and that’s hilariously depressing.

Any minute Kuz spends on the floor with GA is a travesty.

theres is NO WAY kuzma starts and plays 25-30 mpg unless theres improvement. so stop saying that. its my whole point. its not happening so we can stop talking about it

so again... i just dont think you/we have anything to worry about here. we KNOW the organization is well aware...more aware even than we are probably at this point and this convo proves it. we just spent alot of money on a bunch of guys that play a different way. weve heard horst and doc speak IN DETAIL about what the plan is with point giannis and defense and a bunch of shooters...

but.....its a long regular season largely irrelevent until the deadline. why throw a fit if he gets some early minutes just to tinker with some lineups. im all for it personally. stick to the core plan but fiddle with some of these guys and see if somebody surprises. that includes kuzma.

so think we know who we are in the big ways....

kpg/cole
green/rollins
trent
giannis/portis
turner

thats our 8 man lineup. those guys arent getting DNPs. those guys are eating minutes. where prince/kuzma/sims/harris fit in we need to wait and see. id like us to tinker. we know doc loves prince ffs hes probably ahead of kuzma on that chart right now. so if kuzma is the guy getting dealt eventually, and i think we know he is.....then id kind of like to see where we need help before we launch him into space.

[emunney]

At least early in the season, I expect Kuzma to play more than he probably should but less than last year. Mid 20s in minutes. I think we'll see Giannis + 3 guards get tried out with Kuzma, Bobby, Turner, and Prince, and with different combinations of guards. I think it's important to find out what the crucial ingredients are and how well they can be replicated with other players, because apart from the apparent effectiveness of those 5 guys (Giannis-Bobby-Green-Trent-KPJ), the other thing we've learned is that we have to have more players to work in there. We have a lot of guys who have individual merit but who haven't shown definitively they can excel within the new framework.

I think it also makes sense to try some jumbo lineups with either Giannis or Kuzma (+Bobby+Turner). With the team leaning more Giannis-centric than ever (not a bad thing!), we'll have to see what variations might work to weather the minutes Giannis sits and keep people's regular season minutes in check while finding hints about the right cards to play in different playoff matchups.

[tedbrogen]

All the evidence of Doc being an idiot yet people somehow convinced he’s not based on him panicking into ideal lineups when they were facing elimination, lol

[tedbrogen]

I think it also makes sense to try some jumbo lineups with either Giannis or Kuzma (+Bobby+Turner).

Yeah, those Jumbo lineups worked great last season…

[Frank Nova]

Bucks in - Dalton Knect

Lakers in - Andre Jackson Jr

Nets in - Maxi Kleber, 2030 LA 1st

[emunney]

I think it also makes sense to try some jumbo lineups with either Giannis or Kuzma (+Bobby+Turner).

Yeah, those Jumbo lineups worked great last season…

Yeah Turner sucked for us last year, what a bum.

[emunney]

We shouldn't be assuming all 3 "big" lineups will suck any more than we should be assuming all 3 guard lineups will be good.

[stillgotgame]

Good post. There are revisionist Kuzma supporters, just as there is for any bad player.

Kuzma has been nothing, if not consistent, in his career. To be that bad next to Giannis is hard to do, but he did it.

Actually Kuzma has not been consistent at all. Last year was the worst year of his career by a wide margin. He's always been mediocre because of his overzealous shot appetite, but last year was a different level for him. He was normally above replacement level yearly, until last year, when he was the worst player in the league.

All that said, I still think he'll be dealt before the season starts, as even at his best he's a brutal fit next to Giannis.

I've done this before, but I'll do it again:

Kuzma-

Last year in Milwaukee on threes 33.3; career 33.4
Last year in Milwuakee overall shooting 45.5; career 45%
Last year in Milwaukee rebounding 5.6: career 6.3
He has been consistent for his entire career with marginal differences year over year.

I'm sure one can find whatever advanced stat you want to prove a narrative, but there's no way, in my mind, to sugar coat his consistent inefficiency.

Yep, his TS with the Bucks was 54.5%. His previous 4 years were all between 54.4-54.7.
He is what he is.

TS for other players similar to Kuzma last year:

Jonathan Kuminga 53.5
Herb Jones 54.1
Bobby Portis 54.2
Kuzma 54.5
RJ Barrett 54.7
Keegan Murray 55.3
Andrew Wiggins 56.6

Seems to fit right in this group.
He’s not prime Middleton guys, sorry.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

All the evidence of Doc being an idiot yet people somehow convinced he’s not based on him panicking into ideal lineups when they were facing elimination, lol

thats fan oversimplification imo. the year we won the title people wanted bud fired for being hardheaded. if this board coached the team we'd be a circus.

doc has his ways but he, and the organiztion have been very clear about what this years goals are. the fact he didnt go hog wild benching kuzma and lopez 10 games after the deadline with portis sidelined.....and starting trent and green who had seriously plum sucked in their previous starts..... doesnt mean hes a moron. if he listened to this boards postgame threads and deployed all our bright ideas after every game he'd probably destroy the lockerroom in a month

[Ron Swanson]

I don't even agree with it but it's funny that we all just collectively ignore that the jumbo Kuzma/Prince lineup was actually a +12.4 in more than triple the amount of minutes as the lineup we all love (KPJ/Green/Trent/Bobby/Giannis). I just don't believe that any of the lineup data from last season is useful at all. There will and should be plenty of experimenting with different lineup combos given how much roster turnover there's been over the last 6-months.