RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 3)

[michaelm]

It is vaguely possible others are also sceptical about your supposed positions, if you can be so affected by one Jordan fan, the arguments of whom have not really been countered if not numbers he has quoted on occasion, but have no problem with Scranton Bulls an out an out LeBron partisan. He is entitled to be so of course, although not imo while claiming to be unbiased and to have totally evidence based stances himself and doubt exists that he is an actual Bulls fan.

That one Jordan fan just so happens to be wearing the most tinted glasses in this entire thread. I’d be surprised if he can even see out of them. Just go back a few pages (page 10) with him going on about scoring titles as a hilariously short-sighted angle (which I completely dismantled but he can’t comprehend/refute a simple xy graph about volume), all the while he says questionable things like: “I only like players who play both sides of the court”. He is entitled to his opinion, but many posters have already pointed out his hypocrisy and bias to the point that we are questioning if he even watched the players involved in this topic. And rightfully so.

As for ScrantonBulls and—if you even bothered to read my post—he is literally the other half of the equation in the metaphor I used of the immovable object and the unstoppable force. Keep up man, I was agreeing with KyRo23 up there, that neither will be persuaded—no matter what—and this is no longer discourse but rather a playground fight.

I’ve also interacted with him on one single post and we agreed to disagree and moved on. Would be a whole lot more constructive if some others used that approach too if they’re so hard stuck in their already made up answer to this topic. Notice how I’ve completely ignored the Jordan fan since, because it is a complete waste of energy.

Also no shade, but do you talk irl like how you type? You sound like C-3PO from Star Wars or Vision from Marvel lol. Every time I read your posts, it makes me forget for a second what part of the internet I’m on

Thank you sir. Likewise, I appreciate how respectful and in-goos-faith you are when debating/discussing on here. Admittedly, I could do what you suggested and agree to disagree more often.

It's difficult with the low quality and dishonest arguments you see in this thread. bledredwine will make an absurdly homeristic and completely incorrect claim about Jordan, like claiming he beat the Pistons in 1989 or beat the Knicks in 1995 while being underdogs to make the finals both years. Somebody will call him out for being wrong and biased towards Jordan. Then michaelm will respond to that person and say LeBron fans are just as biased and doing the same thing, but his post sounds like it was written using the first version of ChatGPT.

Rinse and repeat.

So it is has taken you 3 days to come up with this ?. Perhaps you should try chatGP yourself. Again, ad hominem is often your only resort rather than your last resort.

Perhaps oddly I am not going to bandy academic or literary credentials with a LeBron tragic or tragics on a basketball forum. My prose style has served me well, even going back to when I was a schoolboy myself well before AI or even the internet.

And again quoting cherry picked retrospective numbers without the context you clearly didn’t observe which are more accurate than Bledred’s memories of what occurred 25 years ago doesn’t prove your general case, which imo mainly relies on exalting Jordan’s team-mates, denigrating his opposition, denigrating LeBron’s team-mates, and exalting his opposition, and longevity statistics which are largely in a losing cause and based on the regular season for the last 5 years.

I am interested in your employment of the term Homeric; not bad if you meant the ancient Greek guy, but the deeds of both Jordan and LeBron are close to as Homeric as it gets in an NBA basketball context, if the term is at all applicable in that context. If you are calling Bledred a homer in American terms then the irony word applies once again, and he is at least not pretending to be a Bulls fan.

[michaelm]

When an immovable object meets an unstoppable force. Based on this thread, from now on, I am forever skeptical of Jordan takes on this board and will always question if a poster was even born early enough to watch him play. Goes both ways on whether they think goat or no goat

It is vaguely possible others are also sceptical about your supposed positions, if you can be so affected by one Jordan fan, the arguments of whom have not really been countered if not numbers he has quoted on occasion, but have no problem with Scranton Bulls an out an out LeBron partisan. He is entitled to be so of course, although not imo while claiming to be unbiased and to have totally evidence based stances himself and doubt exists that he is an actual Bulls fan.

That one Jordan fan just so happens to be wearing the most tinted glasses in this entire thread. I’d be surprised if he can even see out of them. Just go back a few pages (page 10) with him going on about scoring titles as a hilariously short-sighted angle (which I completely dismantled but he can’t comprehend/refute a simple xy graph about volume), all the while he says questionable things like: “I only like players who play both sides of the court”. He is entitled to his opinion, but many posters have already pointed out his hypocrisy and bias to the point that we are questioning if he even watched the players involved in this topic. And rightfully so.

As for ScrantonBulls and—if you even bothered to read my post—he is literally the other half of the equation in the metaphor I used of the immovable object and the unstoppable force. Keep up man, I was agreeing with KyRo23 up there, that neither will be persuaded—no matter what—and this is no longer discourse but rather a playground fight.

I’ve also interacted with him on one single post and we agreed to disagree and moved on. Would be a whole lot more constructive if some others used that approach too if they’re so hard stuck in their already made up answer to this topic. Notice how I’ve completely ignored the Jordan fan since, because it is a complete waste of energy.

Also no shade, but do you talk irl like how you type? You sound like C-3PO from Star Wars or Vision from Marvel lol. Every time I read your posts, it makes me forget for a second what part of the internet I’m on

Throw shade if it amuses you, the frequent employment of ad hominem is one of the major reasons I object to and respond to the posts of Scranton Bulls, along with him attempting to re-cast Jordan’s career which he clearly didn’t follow at the time. There are many good arguments for LeBron, however “but Pippen” and “but Rodman” are not among them, only imo of course. He is also imo a prime example of posters on forums such as this being of the belief that only other people/people who disagree with them are biased.

It doesn’t require much in the way of rose coloured glasses to appraise Jordan very positively btw, with the same true of LeBron of course. And if you are an example of what is in my experience a vanishingly rare phenomenon, an unbiased poster on an internet fan sports forum, I salute you and apologise for my previous reply to you.

I naturally do speak and write similarly but more floridly. I mainly post on my phone in idle moments and am a terrible typist. My employment mainly involves composing reports which are at least theoretically scientific.

[Kawaii Leonard]

It is vaguely possible others are also sceptical about your supposed positions, if you can be so affected by one Jordan fan, the arguments of whom have not really been countered if not numbers he has quoted on occasion, but have no problem with Scranton Bulls an out an out LeBron partisan. He is entitled to be so of course, although not imo while claiming to be unbiased and to have totally evidence based stances himself and doubt exists that he is an actual Bulls fan.

That one Jordan fan just so happens to be wearing the most tinted glasses in this entire thread. I’d be surprised if he can even see out of them. Just go back a few pages (page 10) with him going on about scoring titles as a hilariously short-sighted angle (which I completely dismantled but he can’t comprehend/refute a simple xy graph about volume), all the while he says questionable things like: “I only like players who play both sides of the court”. He is entitled to his opinion, but many posters have already pointed out his hypocrisy and bias to the point that we are questioning if he even watched the players involved in this topic. And rightfully so.

As for ScrantonBulls and—if you even bothered to read my post—he is literally the other half of the equation in the metaphor I used of the immovable object and the unstoppable force. Keep up man, I was agreeing with KyRo23 up there, that neither will be persuaded—no matter what—and this is no longer discourse but rather a playground fight.

I’ve also interacted with him on one single post and we agreed to disagree and moved on. Would be a whole lot more constructive if some others used that approach too if they’re so hard stuck in their already made up answer to this topic. Notice how I’ve completely ignored the Jordan fan since, because it is a complete waste of energy.

Also no shade, but do you talk irl like how you type? You sound like C-3PO from Star Wars or Vision from Marvel lol. Every time I read your posts, it makes me forget for a second what part of the internet I’m on

Throw shade if it amuses you, the frequent employment of ad hominem is one of the major reasons I object to and respond to the posts of Scranton Bulls, along with him attempting to re-cast Jordan’s career which he clearly didn’t follow at the time. There are many good arguments for LeBron, however “but Pippen” and “but Rodman” are not among them, only imo of course. He is also imo a prime example of posters on forums such as this being of the belief that only other people/people who disagree with them are biased.

It doesn’t require much in the way of rose coloured glasses to appraise Jordan very positively btw, with the same true of LeBron of course. And if you are an example of what is in my experience a vanishingly rare phenomenon, an unbiased poster on an internet fan sports forum, I salute you and apologise for my previous reply to you.

I naturally do speak and write similarly but more floridly. I mainly post on my phone in idle moments and am a terrible typist. My employment mainly involves composing reports which are at least theoretically scientific.

Let’s just clarify some things in a cordial manner because you continue to misinterpret everything I’ve said thus far:

- I do not care about anything that has to do with ScratonBull’s posts or views on this topic. I don’t understand why you keep bringing him up.

- I’m fine with “appraising” Jordan positively, but I am not one to sit idly by and watch posters like bledredwine fabricate fiction for this topic—if you continue to drag me into this conversation.

- I made a single comment that scoring titles are an archaic approach to answering this topic, and have yet to hear anything meaningful against my counter-argument. I’ve now been reluctantly strong armed to back-and-forths from this one remark.

- Two things can be true at once. You don’t need tinted glasses to know Jordan is the goat, but you also don’t need those same glasses to make outlandish remarks about Lebron to make your stance on the matter. This is not specifically directed to you btw.

- To claim that the comparisons are not a landslide, as the Jordan heads here incessantly try to feed us, is not something to scoff at imho. I believe this is, at the very least, something we agree upon. But do note it is a two way street when hyperbole comes way.

- Why do you continue to white knight a poster who makes just as many revisionist claims as ScrantonBulls, do you not see the hypocrisy in that? And again, I no longer have any opinions of what either have to say (basketball or topic related) and have made it known pages ago. You can stop twisting my arm and words on this matter, otherwise this is mere bait.

- And no, I don’t find it amusing but rather bizarre that you talk like a gpt bot but carry on. I am not hating or throwing shade.

[ScrantonBulls]

That one Jordan fan just so happens to be wearing the most tinted glasses in this entire thread. I’d be surprised if he can even see out of them. Just go back a few pages (page 10) with him going on about scoring titles as a hilariously short-sighted angle (which I completely dismantled but he can’t comprehend/refute a simple xy graph about volume), all the while he says questionable things like: “I only like players who play both sides of the court”. He is entitled to his opinion, but many posters have already pointed out his hypocrisy and bias to the point that we are questioning if he even watched the players involved in this topic. And rightfully so.

As for ScrantonBulls and—if you even bothered to read my post—he is literally the other half of the equation in the metaphor I used of the immovable object and the unstoppable force. Keep up man, I was agreeing with KyRo23 up there, that neither will be persuaded—no matter what—and this is no longer discourse but rather a playground fight.

I’ve also interacted with him on one single post and we agreed to disagree and moved on. Would be a whole lot more constructive if some others used that approach too if they’re so hard stuck in their already made up answer to this topic. Notice how I’ve completely ignored the Jordan fan since, because it is a complete waste of energy.

Also no shade, but do you talk irl like how you type? You sound like C-3PO from Star Wars or Vision from Marvel lol. Every time I read your posts, it makes me forget for a second what part of the internet I’m on

Throw shade if it amuses you, the frequent employment of ad hominem is one of the major reasons I object to and respond to the posts of Scranton Bulls, along with him attempting to re-cast Jordan’s career which he clearly didn’t follow at the time. There are many good arguments for LeBron, however “but Pippen” and “but Rodman” are not among them, only imo of course. He is also imo a prime example of posters on forums such as this being of the belief that only other people/people who disagree with them are biased.

It doesn’t require much in the way of rose coloured glasses to appraise Jordan very positively btw, with the same true of LeBron of course. And if you are an example of what is in my experience a vanishingly rare phenomenon, an unbiased poster on an internet fan sports forum, I salute you and apologise for my previous reply to you.

I naturally do speak and write similarly but more floridly. I mainly post on my phone in idle moments and am a terrible typist. My employment mainly involves composing reports which are at least theoretically scientific.

Let’s just clarify some things in a very cordial manner because you continue to misinterpret anything I’ve said thus far:

- I do not care anything that has to do with ScratonBull’s posts or views on this topic. I don’t understand why you keep bringing him up.

- I’m fine with “appraising” Jordan positively, but I am not for one to sit idly by and watch posters like bledredwine completely fabricate fiction for this topic—if you continue to drag me into this conversation that is heading no where constructive.

- I made a single comment that scoring titles are an archaic approach to answering this topic, and have yet to hear anything meaningful against my counter-argument.

- Two things can be true at once. You don’t need tinted glasses to know Jordan is the goat, but you also don’t need those same glasses to make outlandish remarks about Lebron to make your stance on the matter. This is not specifically directed to you btw.

- To claim that the comparisons are not a landslide, as the Jordan heads here incessantly try to feed us, is not something to scoff at imho.

- Why do you continue to white knight a poster who makes just as many revisionist claims as ScrantonBulls, do you not see the hypocrisy in that? And again, I no longer have any opinions of what either have to say and have made it known pages ago. You can stop twisting my arm and words on this matter, otherwise this is mere bait.

- And no, I don’t find it amusing but rather bizarre that you talk like a gpt bot but continue on.

Please. In no world do I make revisionist claims anywhere close to how he does. Not even close.

[Kawaii Leonard]

Throw shade if it amuses you, the frequent employment of ad hominem is one of the major reasons I object to and respond to the posts of Scranton Bulls, along with him attempting to re-cast Jordan’s career which he clearly didn’t follow at the time. There are many good arguments for LeBron, however “but Pippen” and “but Rodman” are not among them, only imo of course. He is also imo a prime example of posters on forums such as this being of the belief that only other people/people who disagree with them are biased.

It doesn’t require much in the way of rose coloured glasses to appraise Jordan very positively btw, with the same true of LeBron of course. And if you are an example of what is in my experience a vanishingly rare phenomenon, an unbiased poster on an internet fan sports forum, I salute you and apologise for my previous reply to you.

I naturally do speak and write similarly but more floridly. I mainly post on my phone in idle moments and am a terrible typist. My employment mainly involves composing reports which are at least theoretically scientific.

Let’s just clarify some things in a very cordial manner because you continue to misinterpret anything I’ve said thus far:

- I do not care anything that has to do with ScratonBull’s posts or views on this topic. I don’t understand why you keep bringing him up.

- I’m fine with “appraising” Jordan positively, but I am not for one to sit idly by and watch posters like bledredwine completely fabricate fiction for this topic—if you continue to drag me into this conversation that is heading no where constructive.

- I made a single comment that scoring titles are an archaic approach to answering this topic, and have yet to hear anything meaningful against my counter-argument.

- Two things can be true at once. You don’t need tinted glasses to know Jordan is the goat, but you also don’t need those same glasses to make outlandish remarks about Lebron to make your stance on the matter. This is not specifically directed to you btw.

- To claim that the comparisons are not a landslide, as the Jordan heads here incessantly try to feed us, is not something to scoff at imho.

- Why do you continue to white knight a poster who makes just as many revisionist claims as ScrantonBulls, do you not see the hypocrisy in that? And again, I no longer have any opinions of what either have to say and have made it known pages ago. You can stop twisting my arm and words on this matter, otherwise this is mere bait.

- And no, I don’t find it amusing but rather bizarre that you talk like a gpt bot but continue on.

Please. In no world do I make revisionist claims anywhere close to how he does. Not even close.

I read the Djokovic thread and have never cringed more in my life. It’s his schtick, his humiliation ritual to be so self-admittedly uninformed, while claiming the boldest of takes. Now multiply that when he’s in stanning or autoplay discredit mode. One good look at his sig says everything.
I also question your credibility and your username but from what I’ve gathered in our ‘better defender’ talks a few pages back, you at least have some insight and something to have second thoughts on.

[bledredwine]

Let’s just clarify some things in a very cordial manner because you continue to misinterpret anything I’ve said thus far:

- I do not care anything that has to do with ScratonBull’s posts or views on this topic. I don’t understand why you keep bringing him up.

- I’m fine with “appraising” Jordan positively, but I am not for one to sit idly by and watch posters like bledredwine completely fabricate fiction for this topic—if you continue to drag me into this conversation that is heading no where constructive.

- I made a single comment that scoring titles are an archaic approach to answering this topic, and have yet to hear anything meaningful against my counter-argument.

- Two things can be true at once. You don’t need tinted glasses to know Jordan is the goat, but you also don’t need those same glasses to make outlandish remarks about Lebron to make your stance on the matter. This is not specifically directed to you btw.

- To claim that the comparisons are not a landslide, as the Jordan heads here incessantly try to feed us, is not something to scoff at imho.

- Why do you continue to white knight a poster who makes just as many revisionist claims as ScrantonBulls, do you not see the hypocrisy in that? And again, I no longer have any opinions of what either have to say and have made it known pages ago. You can stop twisting my arm and words on this matter, otherwise this is mere bait.

- And no, I don’t find it amusing but rather bizarre that you talk like a gpt bot but continue on.

Please. In no world do I make revisionist claims anywhere close to how he does. Not even close.

I read the Djokovic thread and have never cringed more in my life. It’s his schtick, his humiliation ritual to be so self-admittedly uninformed, while claiming the boldest of takes. Now multiply that when he’s in stanning or autoplay discredit mode. One good look at his sig says everything.
I also question your credibility and your username but from what I’ve gathered in our ‘better defender’ talks a few pages back, you at least have some insight and something to have second thoughts on.

Sure, I’ll bite since it’s harmless. How about talking about basketball for once?

Every post of yours has had literally nothing to say.
Just look at these two posts. They’re the example of the worthless posts you’ve resorted to time after time. How about actually giving reason to why Lebron is an all time great two way player instead of passive aggressively moaning about it as if you somehow know better and ten to one scoring titles on similar efficiency and 9 to 5 first team defense in less years literally means nothing? It just makes you look pretentious and ridiculous.

Here, let me show you examples of top two way players in history.

Jordan
Wilt
Kareem
Hakeem
Duncan and even Duncan is near the bottom among those top guys

Since first team defense was a thing, all of Jordan, Hakeem and Duncan have much more impressive resumes than Lebron.

Lebron does not belong near those guys when talking the greatest two way players. You can keep whining all you want, but no one in their right mind believes he’s the two way player at the level of Jordan and his achievements reflect that, despite playing in the league far longer.

You’re both pouting out of frustration because there’s nothing to do about it and you’re probably used to the PC forum where you can fabricate in a bubble.

Why didn’t he guard Durant in the finals the second time? Because he was lit the hell up the first time like he was by Jason Terry? Why did four of his matchups win finals MVP? Why does what none of what I’ve said above matter in the debate? I’ve brought this up a million times and crickets every time from the two of you.

Why is he five time first team defense instead of nine times like Jordan in far more years in the league with no DPOY to show, even with years of fairly poor competition when Gasol, Ibaka and later Gobert constantly showing up top? Oh, you’re way of refuting is pretending like it doesn’t mean anything. Well, I better use third person to get poor shots at the poster instead to vent.

Oh, and his god awful clutch shooting is a literal stat, and if you’re really trying to prop him up as a scorer against Jordan as the ten to one scoring titles don’t mean anything? Well…

The fact is, it’s 69 to 20 percent and you’re upset so you resort to this. I can’t help you there.

But if this is the type of low quality conversation you want to resort to, by my guest. You can have a lifetime membership to the Scranton club for all I care.

[Kawaii Leonard]

Please. In no world do I make revisionist claims anywhere close to how he does. Not even close.

I read the Djokovic thread and have never cringed more in my life. It’s his schtick, his humiliation ritual to be so self-admittedly uninformed, while claiming the boldest of takes. Now multiply that when he’s in stanning or autoplay discredit mode. One good look at his sig says everything.
I also question your credibility and your username but from what I’ve gathered in our ‘better defender’ talks a few pages back, you at least have some insight and something to have second thoughts on.

Every post of yours has had literally nothing to say.
You both have pathetic takes as these are the type of worthless posts you’ve resorted to time after time. How about actually giving reason to why Lebron is an all time great two way player instead of passive aggressively moaning about it?

Here, let me show you examples of top two way players in history.

Jordan
Wilt
Kareem
Hakeem

Lebron does not belong. You can keep whining all you want, but no one in their right mind believes he’s the two way player at the level of Jordan and his achievements reflect that, despite playing in the league far longer.

You’re both pouting out of frustration because there’s nothing to do about it and you’re probably used to the PC forum where you can fabricate in a bubble.

Why didn’t he guard Durant in the finals the second time? Because he was lit the hell up the first time like he was by Terry? Why is he five time first team defense instead of nine times like Jordan in far more years in the league with no DPOY to show, even with years of fairly poor competition when Gasol, Ibaka and later Gobert constantly showing up top?

Bad comparison. 69 to 20 percent and you’re upset, can’t help you there.

Oh, and his god awful clutch shooting is a literal stat

You are in the rare select few on these forums where any effort and time is fruitless. So I will only repeat myself in quotes to show your stupidity and glazing:

and championships, finals mvps, mvps, and defensive player of the year award.

Leading the league in scoring ten times isn’t trivial. It’s a statement in dominance. Who else did this, Wilt maybe?

Listen, Jordan is my goat too. I’ll argue, however, that it’s far closer that either of you fanatical fanboys/haters—on your 4 limbs—continue to bicker about. Tiring is an overstatement in these type of threads. You are using scoring titles for a shoot-first SG vs. a pass-first Point Forward and it is archaic at best. You’re embarrassing yourself for even trying to use that as an angle.



The blue trend line tells us on avg, how many shots an NBA player should take to score a certain number of pts in their career. But the real story is about the residuals, and those are the gaps between what the model expected a player to shoot vs what they actually shot and if we’re taking a closer look:



We see Lebron sits well below the regression line, that means he took over 1300 fewer shots than what the model expected of him, so he didn’t just break the all-time scoring record by showing up. He broke it by outperforming expectations for 2 decades. Kareem sits right at the regression line so he performed basically as he was expected. Now we go to Michael Jordan, who took over 1500 more shots than what was expected from him. Lebron showing that below the regression tells you that he broke the system and it’s not just about longevity but greatness that lasted.

So yes, LOL at that image with those scoring titles. How about we start talking about the other 2 boxscore counters in Assists and Rebounds? Or have an objective discussion about individual vs. team success in that pic or the fact that he was robbed of his DPOY to Marc who wasn’t even an all-def player that year? Jordan forced statkeepers hands in home games to inflate his defensive stats and also had the best whistle of all-time from refs. His influence and story-line is unmatched, however.

Those graphs mean nothing and if as a scorer you consider it close, then you are definitely a fan of lebron, period.

If we judge scoring alone, it’s not remotely close. Jordan had a high clip from everywhere on the court other than the three point line. It was automatic. Ten scoring titles says it all.

Lebron is no KD, let alone Jordan.

You homers who think it’s distant between him and kobe are hilarious. That’s the close comparison. You’ll see after lebron retires and the fans (aside from mods) eventually leave. Thats how it works.

I like players who play both sides of the court and not one.

Gold.
Yes, Jason Terry was guarded by Lebron, right?

[bledredwine]

I read the Djokovic thread and have never cringed more in my life. It’s his schtick, his humiliation ritual to be so self-admittedly uninformed, while claiming the boldest of takes. Now multiply that when he’s in stanning or autoplay discredit mode. One good look at his sig says everything.
I also question your credibility and your username but from what I’ve gathered in our ‘better defender’ talks a few pages back, you at least have some insight and something to have second thoughts on.

Every post of yours has had literally nothing to say.
You both have pathetic takes as these are the type of worthless posts you’ve resorted to time after time. How about actually giving reason to why Lebron is an all time great two way player instead of passive aggressively moaning about it?

Here, let me show you examples of top two way players in history.

Jordan
Wilt
Kareem
Hakeem

Lebron does not belong. You can keep whining all you want, but no one in their right mind believes he’s the two way player at the level of Jordan and his achievements reflect that, despite playing in the league far longer.

You’re both pouting out of frustration because there’s nothing to do about it and you’re probably used to the PC forum where you can fabricate in a bubble.

Why didn’t he guard Durant in the finals the second time? Because he was lit the hell up the first time like he was by Terry? Why is he five time first team defense instead of nine times like Jordan in far more years in the league with no DPOY to show, even with years of fairly poor competition when Gasol, Ibaka and later Gobert constantly showing up top?

Bad comparison. 69 to 20 percent and you’re upset, can’t help you there.

Oh, and his god awful clutch shooting is a literal stat

You are in the rare select few on these forums where any effort and time is fruitless. So I will only repeat myself in quotes to show your stupidity and glazing:

Listen, Jordan is my goat too. I’ll argue, however, that it’s far closer that either of you fanatical fanboys/haters—on your 4 limbs—continue to bicker about. Tiring is an overstatement in these type of threads. You are using scoring titles for a shoot-first SG vs. a pass-first Point Forward and it is archaic at best. You’re embarrassing yourself for even trying to use that as an angle.



The blue trend line tells us on avg, how many shots an NBA player should take to score a certain number of pts in their career. But the real story is about the residuals, and those are the gaps between what the model expected a player to shoot vs what they actually shot and if we’re taking a closer look:



We see Lebron sits well below the regression line, that means he took over 1300 fewer shots than what the model expected of him, so he didn’t just break the all-time scoring record by showing up. He broke it by outperforming expectations for 2 decades. Kareem sits right at the regression line so he performed basically as he was expected. Now we go to Michael Jordan, who took over 1500 more shots than what was expected from him. Lebron showing that below the regression tells you that he broke the system and it’s not just about longevity but greatness that lasted.

So yes, LOL at that image with those scoring titles. How about we start talking about the other 2 boxscore counters in Assists and Rebounds? Or have an objective discussion about individual vs. team success in that pic or the fact that he was robbed of his DPOY to Marc who wasn’t even an all-def player that year? Jordan forced statkeepers hands in home games to inflate his defensive stats and also had the best whistle of all-time from refs. His influence and story-line is unmatched, however.

Those graphs mean nothing and if as a scorer you consider it close, then you are definitely a fan of lebron, period.

If we judge scoring alone, it’s not remotely close. Jordan had a high clip from everywhere on the court other than the three point line. It was automatic. Ten scoring titles says it all.

Lebron is no KD, let alone Jordan.

You homers who think it’s distant between him and kobe are hilarious. That’s the close comparison. You’ll see after lebron retires and the fans (aside from mods) eventually leave. Thats how it works.

I like players who play both sides of the court and not one.

Gold.
Yes, Jason Terry was guarded by Lebron, right?

Oh wow, more nothing from you. What a shocker.

Once again, using career points and longevity as if it means something lol

[bledredwine]

Gold.
Yes, Jason Terry was guarded by Lebron, right?

You can youtube it if you didn’t watch.
Something along the lines of “Terry makes lebron look silly in the finals”

[Kawaii Leonard]

Every post of yours has had literally nothing to say.
You both have pathetic takes as these are the type of worthless posts you’ve resorted to time after time. How about actually giving reason to why Lebron is an all time great two way player instead of passive aggressively moaning about it?

Here, let me show you examples of top two way players in history.

Jordan
Wilt
Kareem
Hakeem

Lebron does not belong. You can keep whining all you want, but no one in their right mind believes he’s the two way player at the level of Jordan and his achievements reflect that, despite playing in the league far longer.

You’re both pouting out of frustration because there’s nothing to do about it and you’re probably used to the PC forum where you can fabricate in a bubble.

Why didn’t he guard Durant in the finals the second time? Because he was lit the hell up the first time like he was by Terry? Why is he five time first team defense instead of nine times like Jordan in far more years in the league with no DPOY to show, even with years of fairly poor competition when Gasol, Ibaka and later Gobert constantly showing up top?

Bad comparison. 69 to 20 percent and you’re upset, can’t help you there.

Oh, and his god awful clutch shooting is a literal stat

You are in the rare select few on these forums where any effort and time is fruitless. So I will only repeat myself in quotes to show your stupidity and glazing:

Those graphs mean nothing and if as a scorer you consider it close, then you are definitely a fan of lebron, period.

If we judge scoring alone, it’s not remotely close. Jordan had a high clip from everywhere on the court other than the three point line. It was automatic. Ten scoring titles says it all.

Lebron is no KD, let alone Jordan.

You homers who think it’s distant between him and kobe are hilarious. That’s the close comparison. You’ll see after lebron retires and the fans (aside from mods) eventually leave. Thats how it works.

I like players who play both sides of the court and not one.

Gold.
Yes, Jason Terry was guarded by Lebron, right?

Oh wow, more nothing from you. What a shocker.

Once again, using career points and longevity as if it means something lol

My sweet summer child. Google any scoring milestone Jordan accomplished as a shoot first SG, Lebron on average took anywhere from 100-1300+ fewer shots to produce just as much in less attempts. It’s wild you still can’t deduce what volume means in a high scoring game like basketball. I also implore you to see the points generated column.

Let’s take longevity out of the equation and end it where MJ deemed fit;
MJ took 24,537 field goal attempts to score 32,292 points in his career.
LeBron was more efficient in terms of fga to reach the same point total, requiring about 1,105 fewer attempts than Jordan.


As for the better two-way player, I already said it was Jordan. Why do you repeatedly move the goal post and then moan about your own doing? It’s like watching a dog flip over their water bowl and then panting of thirst.
At first, you implied Lebron doesn’t play defense and that you “only like players who play both sides of the court”. Then I corrected you that Lebron was a dpoy runnerup candidate for 2 seasons and a 6 time all defensive player so your take is flawed. This does not indicate that I think Lebron is the better defender, but rather you have no credibility when comparing the two players since you are this biased or mistaken by your underlying hatred of the player who challenges your favourite. Now you’re stacking up media awards to make a claim that I already said I agree with you on. How do you go this far off tangent, when my original post is that scoring titles are moot for this debate. Keep bringing it up and I will harp on the longevity and efficiency of the pass-first player who scored more.

[Kawaii Leonard]

Gold.
Yes, Jason Terry was guarded by Lebron, right?

You can youtube it if you didn’t watch.
Something along the lines of “Terry makes lebron look silly in the finals”

Just like Barea locked him up in a whopping 5 post up sets in a 6 game series, right? Surely wasn’t their zone clogging the lane, something Jordan never had to face, or the fact that it was actually Shawn Marion in isos with Chandler stone walling the rim during the Hibbert elevation days.

Selective memory or revisionist? Perhaps both in this case.

Jesus I can’t imagine what else is in your youtube search history after I hit the letter L.

[bledredwine]

You are in the rare select few on these forums where any effort and time is fruitless. So I will only repeat myself in quotes to show your stupidity and glazing:



Gold.
Yes, Jason Terry was guarded by Lebron, right?

Oh wow, more nothing from you. What a shocker.

Once again, using career points and longevity as if it means something lol

My sweet summer child. Google any scoring milestone Jordan accomplished as a shoot first SG, Lebron on average took anywhere from 100-1300+ fewer shots to produce just as much in less attempts. It’s wild you still can’t deduce what volume means in a high scoring game like basketball. I also implore you to see the points generated column.

Let’s take longevity out of the equation and end it where MJ deemed fit;
MJ took 24,537 field goal attempts to score 32,292 points in his career.
LeBron was more efficient in terms of fga to reach the same point total, requiring about 1,105 fewer attempts than Jordan.


As for the better two-way player, I already said it was Jordan. Why do you repeatedly move the goal post and then moan about your own doing? It’s like watching a dog flip over their water bowl and then panting of thirst.
At first, you implied Lebron doesn’t play defense and that you “only like players who play both sides of the court”. Then I corrected you that Lebron was a dpoy runnerup candidate for 2 seasons and a 6 time all defensive player so your take is flawed. This does not indicate that I think Lebron is the better defender, but rather you have no credibility when comparing the two players since you are this biased or mistaken by your underlying hatred of the player who challenges your favourite. Now you’re stacking up media awards to make a claim that I already said I agree with you on. How do you go this far off tangent, when my original post is that scoring titles are moot for this debate. Keep bringing it up and I will harp on the longevity and efficiency of the pass-first player who scored more.

Of course. Lebron cherry picked shots.
Volume matters, as does possessing a semi decent midrange game. Jordan is all time midrange goat (see the Pc forum thread comparing midrange stats and even latest Jordan demolished even Dirk).

Compare their finals stats. Jordan scored on more volume and efficiency. The one time Lebron was forced to carry the load to Jordan’s average in the finals, Lebron scored 35 ppg (finally)…. on a terrible .397 from the field. Jordan’s never had a playoff performance that poor from the field as far as I’m aware (check?), but especially never shot sub .400 in the finals.

Once again, by the time Deandre Jordan and Tyson Chandler got to some of Lebron’s scoring milestones, they did it on far better efficiency. But that doesn’t matter a damn.
What does is that Jordan was automatic and had high percentages all over the floor, whereas Lebron had a more limited scoring arsenal and shot terribly from certain parts of the floor.

That includes not even being able to average three out of every four freethrows.

I also have a video in my youtube playlist that’ll put this to rest for you, because Lebron had way more sub .400 playoff games than Jordan. It’s not remotely close as to who the more dominant and automatic scorer was. Durant is the best scorer of this generation anyway and not only has more ppg than lebron but also on higher efficiency.

When Lebron guarded Durant in the finals, Durant scored more with 35 ppg on absurd efficiency. And you’re trying to compare lebron’s scoring to Jordan.

[bledredwine]

Gold.
Yes, Jason Terry was guarded by Lebron, right?

You can youtube it if you didn’t watch.
Something along the lines of “Terry makes lebron look silly in the finals”

Just like Barea locked him up in a whopping 5 post up sets in a 6 game series, right? Surely wasn’t their zone clogging the lane, something Jordan never had to face, or the fact that it was actually Shawn Marion in isos with Chandler stone walling the rim during the Hibbert elevation days.

Selective memory or revisionist? Perhaps both in this case.

Jesus I can’t imagine what else is in your youtube search history after I hit the letter L.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=lebron+chooses+not+to+guard+kevin+durant[/youtube]

Watch on YouTube

That's not good defense... in the finals. Hence, 4 of his matchups winning finals MVP, including one he chose not to guard because he was so ineffective the prior year.

Early Years/Scoring

I type over 130 so I'm pretty much typing what I hear. Here's the video

Watch on YouTube

It took lebron until year twenty to surpass Jordan in 30 point games, after playing seven more seasons. To shoot at such a high volume that consistently is incredible from MJ's behalf.

That’s because Jordan was a far more dominant and consistent scorer. Let’s focus on early career when Lebron and Jordan had equal parts pressure and lacked the teammates to take off the scoring load aka before the passivity/cherry picking shots.

Jordan’s entire career before winning championships? He only had 4 games total shooting under 35 percent. Lebron matched that number in just one playoff series against Boston.

That Boston series is just the beginning.


There’s a huge difference between not winning and not showing up.

Before winning his first ring, Jordan never shot below 40 percent in a playoff series, never. Bron in 2008 against Boston shot 32% in the first six games. That’s Lebron when he HAS to score like Jordan.

When Jordan lost in the playoffs early in his career, he was putting up video game numbers against all time great teams.

In 1986, he dropped 63 points on one of the greatest Celtics team ever built.


In 1989, he averaged 45 points against the Badboy Pistons, the team that invented the Jordan rules just to slow him down.

What about when the pressure is highest? Elimination games.

Before winning his first championship, Jordan averaged 39 points in games where his team faced elimination. Lebron in the same situation? 27 points.
And in 2010 with Cleveland’s season on the line, he put up a whopping 15 points against Boston.

And he bolted.

In Jordan’s entire pre championship career? He never had consecutive playoff games shooting under 40%. Lebron did this 4 times in a row in the same series…. In the 2011 finals, against Dallas.

This is about showing up when it matters and completely shatters any scoring consistency debate between these two. It’s a wake up call for Lebron fans.

Jordan’s entire pre-championship career had just ONE truly bad playoff game, with a game score of 12.9 against the Badboy Pistons, the team that created the Jordan Rules. Every other was dominance.

Lebron didn’t have 1 game below that mark, not 2, not 5. He racked up 9 games worse than Jordan’s worst performance. In fact, during 1 Boston series, Lebron scored NEGATIVE points in the game score system, something Jordan never did in his entire career.

Jordan dominated with game scores of above 20 in 80% of his playoff performances. Lebron barely managed to hit that in 58% of his games. In the 2011 finals, he couldn’t even reach that once in the final four games.

Elimination games - Jordan averaged a game score of 28.3, and Lebron 19.6, what you’d expect from a great role player, not a GOAT.

Field goal percentage? Jordan shot over 45% in playoff games before his first ring, Lebron? Had entire shooting series shooting below 35%. TS%? Jordan never dipped below 52% in a series and Lebron had multiple in the 40’s. Jordan averaged .214 winshares per 48 in the playoffs prior to first championship and Lebron? .156

Jordan never had back to back playoff games shooting under 40%, which Lebron managed to do in the 2011 finals alone…. FOUR games in a row consecutively, with two other superstars on his team.

Lebron, at age 26, literally got outplayed by Jason Terry in the finals. It was so bad that he needed teammates to explain why he struggled in press conferences. Imagine Michael Jordan needing Scottie, Dennis Rodman or Tony Kukoc to explain why he couldn’t show up in the finals. This is the difference in their mindset - Jordan wanted the pressure, Lebron does not.

Jordan wants to defend the best players, Lebron would rather guard someone else. Jordan rose from 33 ppg to 39 ppg in elimination games, Lebron went from 28 to 24… shying from the pressure.

Jordan faced 38 50 win teams to Lebron’s 21.

In terms of career, over 73% of Jordan’s 50 point games were against winning teams whereas roughly 75% of lebron’s were against losing squads. That’s why his fifty piece in the finals surprised me and I finally called him “MJ’esque” that night.

When it comes to scoring consistency, there’s no debate here. 10 scoring titles to 1 is a mere outcome and reflection of all of this, as are 9 1st team defense from the videos above and the DPOY. Of course it matters. That’s silly to deny DPOY’s scoring titles just because lebron didnt get them.

[Kawaii Leonard]

Oh wow, more nothing from you. What a shocker.

Once again, using career points and longevity as if it means something lol

My sweet summer child. Google any scoring milestone Jordan accomplished as a shoot first SG, Lebron on average took anywhere from 100-1300+ fewer shots to produce just as much in less attempts. It’s wild you still can’t deduce what volume means in a high scoring game like basketball. I also implore you to see the points generated column.

Let’s take longevity out of the equation and end it where MJ deemed fit;
MJ took 24,537 field goal attempts to score 32,292 points in his career.
LeBron was more efficient in terms of fga to reach the same point total, requiring about 1,105 fewer attempts than Jordan.


As for the better two-way player, I already said it was Jordan. Why do you repeatedly move the goal post and then moan about your own doing? It’s like watching a dog flip over their water bowl and then panting of thirst.
At first, you implied Lebron doesn’t play defense and that you “only like players who play both sides of the court”. Then I corrected you that Lebron was a dpoy runnerup candidate for 2 seasons and a 6 time all defensive player so your take is flawed. This does not indicate that I think Lebron is the better defender, but rather you have no credibility when comparing the two players since you are this biased or mistaken by your underlying hatred of the player who challenges your favourite. Now you’re stacking up media awards to make a claim that I already said I agree with you on. How do you go this far off tangent, when my original post is that scoring titles are moot for this debate. Keep bringing it up and I will harp on the longevity and efficiency of the pass-first player who scored more.

Of course. Lebron cherry picked shots.
Volume matters, as does possessing a semi decent midrange game. Jordan is all time midrange goat (see the Pc forum thread comparing midrange stats and even latest Jordan demolished even Dirk).

Compare their finals stats. Jordan scored on more volume and efficiency. The one time Lebron was forced to carry the load to Jordan’s average in the finals, Lebron scored 35 ppg (finally)…. on a terrible .397 from the field. Jordan’s never had a playoff performance that poor from the field as far as I’m aware (check?), but especially never shot sub .400 in the finals.

Once again, by the time Deandre Jordan and Tyson Chandler got to some of Lebron’s scoring milestones, they did it on far better efficiency. But that doesn’t matter a damn.
What does is that Jordan was automatic and had high percentages all over the floor, whereas Lebron had a more limited scoring arsenal and shot terribly from certain parts of the floor.

That includes not even being able to average three out of every four freethrows.

I also have a video in my youtube playlist that’ll put this to rest for you, because Lebron had way more sub .400 playoff games than Jordan. It’s not remotely close as to who the more dominant and automatic scorer was. Durant is the best scorer of this generation anyway and not only has more ppg than lebron but also on higher efficiency.

When Lebron guarded Durant in the finals, Durant scored more with 35 ppg on absurd efficiency. And you’re trying to compare lebron’s scoring to Jordan.

The irony of claiming cherry-picked stats when your sig just happens to be the most cherry-pick stat on this entire board. And you follow it up by cherry-picking shot selection/aesthetics now because Jordan had the better midrange game? Yep, Lebron definitely doesn’t “possess a a semi decent midrange game”. Totally.

Explain how career Points Scored divided by FGAs is in any form narrowing the optics? Literally the broadest angle of their scoring to efficiency prowess, while eliminating longevity since we’re going by Jordan’s end total. I genuinely don’t think you know the definition of cherry-picking. I’ll be sure to use it in multiple examples to help you understand what it means.

And the goal post moves yet again. We go from regular season scoring titles, to now the playoffs, and cherry-picked into the finals and its %s when only scoring 35 or more. Incredible. I guess 2017 and 2018 doesn’t count since he was a point shy. We should also comply to your wishes and ignore the three Finals (28 ppg on 57%, 34 on 56%, 30 on 59%) where Lebron was more effective than Jordan’s most efficient finals (1991: 31 ppg on 55%).

As for the 2015 Finals you’re so fixated on, it’s almost like the 2nd and 3rd options on his team were absent. I wonder what type of impact that creates on a heliocentric do-it-all player when the entire opponent’s game plan is to stop 1 player. Thankfully he had all-star all nba talents of Matty Dellavedova and Timofey Mozgov on the floor to give him ample room to operate all the while he lead both teams in every statistical category.

Lol at bringing in Deandre Jordan and Tyson Chandler to dismiss what efficiency means in this context. You truly can’t grasp the concept of volume in this sport, can you?

You get your source material for posts via fan-made youtube shorts and it really does show. I’m sure the level of critical analysis and breakdown is quality.

[bledredwine]

My sweet summer child. Google any scoring milestone Jordan accomplished as a shoot first SG, Lebron on average took anywhere from 100-1300+ fewer shots to produce just as much in less attempts. It’s wild you still can’t deduce what volume means in a high scoring game like basketball. I also implore you to see the points generated column.

Let’s take longevity out of the equation and end it where MJ deemed fit;
MJ took 24,537 field goal attempts to score 32,292 points in his career.
LeBron was more efficient in terms of fga to reach the same point total, requiring about 1,105 fewer attempts than Jordan.


As for the better two-way player, I already said it was Jordan. Why do you repeatedly move the goal post and then moan about your own doing? It’s like watching a dog flip over their water bowl and then panting of thirst.
At first, you implied Lebron doesn’t play defense and that you “only like players who play both sides of the court”. Then I corrected you that Lebron was a dpoy runnerup candidate for 2 seasons and a 6 time all defensive player so your take is flawed. This does not indicate that I think Lebron is the better defender, but rather you have no credibility when comparing the two players since you are this biased or mistaken by your underlying hatred of the player who challenges your favourite. Now you’re stacking up media awards to make a claim that I already said I agree with you on. How do you go this far off tangent, when my original post is that scoring titles are moot for this debate. Keep bringing it up and I will harp on the longevity and efficiency of the pass-first player who scored more.

Of course. Lebron cherry picked shots.
Volume matters, as does possessing a semi decent midrange game. Jordan is all time midrange goat (see the Pc forum thread comparing midrange stats and even latest Jordan demolished even Dirk).

Compare their finals stats. Jordan scored on more volume and efficiency. The one time Lebron was forced to carry the load to Jordan’s average in the finals, Lebron scored 35 ppg (finally)…. on a terrible .397 from the field. Jordan’s never had a playoff performance that poor from the field as far as I’m aware (check?), but especially never shot sub .400 in the finals.

Once again, by the time Deandre Jordan and Tyson Chandler got to some of Lebron’s scoring milestones, they did it on far better efficiency. But that doesn’t matter a damn.
What does is that Jordan was automatic and had high percentages all over the floor, whereas Lebron had a more limited scoring arsenal and shot terribly from certain parts of the floor.

That includes not even being able to average three out of every four freethrows.

I also have a video in my youtube playlist that’ll put this to rest for you, because Lebron had way more sub .400 playoff games than Jordan. It’s not remotely close as to who the more dominant and automatic scorer was. Durant is the best scorer of this generation anyway and not only has more ppg than lebron but also on higher efficiency.

When Lebron guarded Durant in the finals, Durant scored more with 35 ppg on absurd efficiency. And you’re trying to compare lebron’s scoring to Jordan.

The irony of claiming cherry-picked stats when your sig just happens to be the most cherry-pick stat on this entire board. And you follow it up by cherry-picking shot selection/aesthetics now because Jordan had the better midrange game? Yep, Lebron definitely doesn’t “possess a a semi decent midrange game”. Totally.

Explain how career Points Scored divided by FGAs is in any form narrowing the optics? Literally the broadest angle of their scoring to efficiency prowess, while eliminating longevity since we’re going by Jordan’s end total. I genuinely don’t think you know the definition of cherry-picking. I’ll be sure to use it in multiple examples to help you understand what it means.

And the goal post moves yet again. We go from regular season scoring titles, to now the playoffs, and cherry-picked into the finals and its %s when only scoring 35 or more. Incredible. I guess 2017 and 2018 doesn’t count since he was a point shy. We should also comply to your wishes and ignore the three seasons (28 ppg on 57%, 34 on 56%, 30 on 59%) where Lebron was more effective than Jordan’s most efficient finals (1991: 31 ppg on 55%).

As for the 2015 Finals you’re so fixated on, it’s almost like the 2nd and 3rd options on his team were absent. I wonder what type of impact that creates on a heliocentric do-it-all player when the entire opponent’s game plan is to stop 1 player. Thankfully he had all-star all nba talents of Matty Dellavedova and Timofey Mozgov on the floor to give him ample room to operate all the while he lead both teams in every statistical category.

Lol at bringing in Deandre Jordan and Tyson Chandler to dismiss what efficiency means in this context. You truly can’t grasp the concept of volume in this sport, can you?

You get your source material for posts via fan-made youtube shorts and it really does show. I’m sure the level of critical analysis and breakdown is quality.

My sig is lebron’s last five seconds game tying or to win the game for his entire career

Yeah, such a cherry picked, small sample size. Um, you’re making excuses because you know well of Lebron’s chokes against the celtics, mavs, his even self-admitted shooting inconsistencies, etc. It’s too funny that at first you claimed not to be a fan. Well, I gave a good portion of stats. If you’re trying to argue all around game, that’s at least more realistic, but trying to prop up lebron as a scorer to Jordan is laughable. He wasn’t even the best of his era.

[Kawaii Leonard]

You can youtube it if you didn’t watch.
Something along the lines of “Terry makes lebron look silly in the finals”

Just like Barea locked him up in a whopping 5 post up sets in a 6 game series, right? Surely wasn’t their zone clogging the lane, something Jordan never had to face, or the fact that it was actually Shawn Marion in isos with Chandler stone walling the rim during the Hibbert elevation days.

Selective memory or revisionist? Perhaps both in this case.

Jesus I can’t imagine what else is in your youtube search history after I hit the letter L.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=lebron+chooses+not+to+guard+kevin+durant[/youtube]

Watch on YouTube

That's not good defense... in the finals. Hence, 4 of his matchups winning finals MVP, including one he chose not to guard because he was so ineffective the prior year.

Early Years/Scoring

I type over 130 so I'm pretty much typing what I hear. Here's the video

Watch on YouTube

It took lebron until year twenty to surpass Jordan in 30 point games, after playing seven more seasons. To shoot at such a high volume that consistently is incredible from MJ's behalf.

That’s because Jordan was a far more dominant and consistent scorer. Let’s focus on early career when Lebron and Jordan had equal parts pressure and lacked the teammates to take off the scoring load aka before the passivity/cherry picking shots.

Jordan’s entire career before winning championships? He only had 4 games total shooting under 35 percent. Lebron matched that number in just one playoff series against Boston.

That Boston series is just the beginning.


There’s a huge difference between not winning and not showing up.

Before winning his first ring, Jordan never shot below 40 percent in a playoff series, never. Bron in 2008 against Boston shot 32% in the first six games. That’s Lebron when he HAS to score like Jordan.

When Jordan lost in the playoffs early in his career, he was putting up video game numbers against all time great teams.

In 1986, he dropped 63 points on one of the greatest Celtics team ever built.


In 1989, he averaged 45 points against the Badboy Pistons, the team that invented the Jordan rules just to slow him down.

What about when the pressure is highest? Elimination games.

Before winning his first championship, Jordan averaged 39 points in games where his team faced elimination. Lebron in the same situation? 27 points.
And in 2010 with Cleveland’s season on the line, he put up a whopping 15 points against Boston.

And he bolted.

In Jordan’s entire pre championship career? He never had consecutive playoff games shooting under 40%. Lebron did this 4 times in a row in the same series…. In the 2011 finals, against Dallas.

This is about showing up when it matters and completely shatters any scoring consistency debate between these two. It’s a wake up call for Lebron fans.

Jordan’s entire pre-championship career had just ONE truly bad playoff game, with a game score of 12.9 against the Badboy Pistons, the team that created the Jordan Rules. Every other was dominance.

Lebron didn’t have 1 game below that mark, not 2, not 5. He racked up 9 games worse than Jordan’s worst performance. In fact, during 1 Boston series, Lebron scored NEGATIVE points in the game score system, something Jordan never did in his entire career.

Jordan dominated with game scores of above 20 in 80% of his playoff performances. Lebron barely managed to hit that in 58% of his games. In the 2011 finals, he couldn’t even reach that once in the final four games.

Elimination games - Jordan averaged a game score of 28.3, and Lebron 19.6, what you’d expect from a great role player, not a GOAT.

Field goal percentage? Jordan shot over 45% in playoff games before his first ring, Lebron? Had entire shooting series shooting below 35%. TS%? Jordan never dipped below 52% in a series and Lebron had multiple in the 40’s. Jordan averaged .214 winshares per 48 in the playoffs prior to first championship and Lebron? .156

Jordan never had back to back playoff games shooting under 40%, which Lebron managed to do in the 2011 finals alone…. FOUR games in a row consecutively, with two other superstars on his team.

Lebron, at age 26, literally got outplayed by Jason Terry in the finals. It was so bad that he needed teammates to explain why he struggled in press conferences. Imagine Michael Jordan needing Scottie, Dennis Rodman or Tony Kukoc to explain why he couldn’t show up in the finals. This is the difference in their mindset - Jordan wanted the pressure, Lebron does not.

Jordan wants to defend the best players, Lebron would rather guard someone else. Jordan rose from 33 ppg to 39 ppg in elimination games, Lebron went from 28 to 24… shying from the pressure.

Jordan faced 38 50 win teams to Lebron’s 21.

In terms of career, over 73% of Jordan’s 50 point games were against winning teams whereas roughly 75% of lebron’s were against losing squads. That’s why his fifty piece in the finals surprised me and I finally called him “MJ’esque” that night.

When it comes to scoring consistency, there’s no debate here. 10 scoring titles to 1 is a mere outcome and reflection of all of this, as are 9 1st team defense from the videos above and the DPOY. Of course it matters. That’s silly to deny DPOY’s scoring titles just because lebron didnt get them.

The youtube video you were going on about, with its massive 2000 sub following, literally starts off with clips of Chuck, Skip Bayless, Stephen A. Smith with an AI voice over. Groundbreaking material that disproves my original take that Scoring Titles are moot here and that Lebron indeed played both sides of the court. Carry on glazing your hero and not understanding simple basketball concepts or failing miserably in reading comprehension. How off tangent you are from my two takes is astonishing. I’ll let you to it though, continue the rant no one ask for.

[bledredwine]

Just like Barea locked him up in a whopping 5 post up sets in a 6 game series, right? Surely wasn’t their zone clogging the lane, something Jordan never had to face, or the fact that it was actually Shawn Marion in isos with Chandler stone walling the rim during the Hibbert elevation days.

Selective memory or revisionist? Perhaps both in this case.

Jesus I can’t imagine what else is in your youtube search history after I hit the letter L.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=lebron+chooses+not+to+guard+kevin+durant[/youtube]

Watch on YouTube

That's not good defense... in the finals. Hence, 4 of his matchups winning finals MVP, including one he chose not to guard because he was so ineffective the prior year.

Early Years/Scoring

I type over 130 so I'm pretty much typing what I hear. Here's the video

Watch on YouTube

It took lebron until year twenty to surpass Jordan in 30 point games, after playing seven more seasons. To shoot at such a high volume that consistently is incredible from MJ's behalf.

That’s because Jordan was a far more dominant and consistent scorer. Let’s focus on early career when Lebron and Jordan had equal parts pressure and lacked the teammates to take off the scoring load aka before the passivity/cherry picking shots.

Jordan’s entire career before winning championships? He only had 4 games total shooting under 35 percent. Lebron matched that number in just one playoff series against Boston.

That Boston series is just the beginning.


There’s a huge difference between not winning and not showing up.

Before winning his first ring, Jordan never shot below 40 percent in a playoff series, never. Bron in 2008 against Boston shot 32% in the first six games. That’s Lebron when he HAS to score like Jordan.

When Jordan lost in the playoffs early in his career, he was putting up video game numbers against all time great teams.

In 1986, he dropped 63 points on one of the greatest Celtics team ever built.


In 1989, he averaged 45 points against the Badboy Pistons, the team that invented the Jordan rules just to slow him down.

What about when the pressure is highest? Elimination games.

Before winning his first championship, Jordan averaged 39 points in games where his team faced elimination. Lebron in the same situation? 27 points.
And in 2010 with Cleveland’s season on the line, he put up a whopping 15 points against Boston.

And he bolted.

In Jordan’s entire pre championship career? He never had consecutive playoff games shooting under 40%. Lebron did this 4 times in a row in the same series…. In the 2011 finals, against Dallas.

This is about showing up when it matters and completely shatters any scoring consistency debate between these two. It’s a wake up call for Lebron fans.

Jordan’s entire pre-championship career had just ONE truly bad playoff game, with a game score of 12.9 against the Badboy Pistons, the team that created the Jordan Rules. Every other was dominance.

Lebron didn’t have 1 game below that mark, not 2, not 5. He racked up 9 games worse than Jordan’s worst performance. In fact, during 1 Boston series, Lebron scored NEGATIVE points in the game score system, something Jordan never did in his entire career.

Jordan dominated with game scores of above 20 in 80% of his playoff performances. Lebron barely managed to hit that in 58% of his games. In the 2011 finals, he couldn’t even reach that once in the final four games.

Elimination games - Jordan averaged a game score of 28.3, and Lebron 19.6, what you’d expect from a great role player, not a GOAT.

Field goal percentage? Jordan shot over 45% in playoff games before his first ring, Lebron? Had entire shooting series shooting below 35%. TS%? Jordan never dipped below 52% in a series and Lebron had multiple in the 40’s. Jordan averaged .214 winshares per 48 in the playoffs prior to first championship and Lebron? .156

Jordan never had back to back playoff games shooting under 40%, which Lebron managed to do in the 2011 finals alone…. FOUR games in a row consecutively, with two other superstars on his team.

Lebron, at age 26, literally got outplayed by Jason Terry in the finals. It was so bad that he needed teammates to explain why he struggled in press conferences. Imagine Michael Jordan needing Scottie, Dennis Rodman or Tony Kukoc to explain why he couldn’t show up in the finals. This is the difference in their mindset - Jordan wanted the pressure, Lebron does not.

Jordan wants to defend the best players, Lebron would rather guard someone else. Jordan rose from 33 ppg to 39 ppg in elimination games, Lebron went from 28 to 24… shying from the pressure.

Jordan faced 38 50 win teams to Lebron’s 21.

In terms of career, over 73% of Jordan’s 50 point games were against winning teams whereas roughly 75% of lebron’s were against losing squads. That’s why his fifty piece in the finals surprised me and I finally called him “MJ’esque” that night.

When it comes to scoring consistency, there’s no debate here. 10 scoring titles to 1 is a mere outcome and reflection of all of this, as are 9 1st team defense from the videos above and the DPOY. Of course it matters. That’s silly to deny DPOY’s scoring titles just because lebron didnt get them.

The youtube video you were going on about, with its massive 2000 sub following, literally starts off with clips of Chuck, Skip Bayless, Stephen A. Smith with an AI voice over. Groundbreaking material that disproves my original take that Scoring Titles are moot here and that Lebron indeed played both sides of the court. Carry on glazing your hero and not understanding simple basketball concepts or failing miserably in reading comprehension. How off tangent you are from my two takes is astonishing. I’ll let you to it though, continue the rant no one ask for.

and yet, the stats are true and you know it.

Jordan playoff career - 33.4 ppg.
Lebron playoff career - 28.4 ppg

Jordan was regular peak season Harden in the playoffs throughout his career, shooting challenging shots when needed, and still is nearly the same efficiency as lebron’s lower volume, despite lebron relying on close to the rim shots. It’s not close in scoring prowess.

Thats why Lebron had so many scoring struggles. Can you please point out Jordan’s scoring struggles? I’ve pointed out plenty of lebron’s. How about lebron’s poor midrange and free throw percentage? Point out all of Jordan’s flaws in terms of scoring and scoring performances.

then you’ll see why….

Ten scoring titles.

[Kawaii Leonard]

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[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=lebron+chooses+not+to+guard+kevin+durant[/youtube]

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That's not good defense... in the finals. Hence, 4 of his matchups winning finals MVP, including one he chose not to guard because he was so ineffective the prior year.

Early Years/Scoring

I type over 130 so I'm pretty much typing what I hear. Here's the video

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It took lebron until year twenty to surpass Jordan in 30 point games, after playing seven more seasons. To shoot at such a high volume that consistently is incredible from MJ's behalf.

That’s because Jordan was a far more dominant and consistent scorer. Let’s focus on early career when Lebron and Jordan had equal parts pressure and lacked the teammates to take off the scoring load aka before the passivity/cherry picking shots.

Jordan’s entire career before winning championships? He only had 4 games total shooting under 35 percent. Lebron matched that number in just one playoff series against Boston.

That Boston series is just the beginning.


There’s a huge difference between not winning and not showing up.

Before winning his first ring, Jordan never shot below 40 percent in a playoff series, never. Bron in 2008 against Boston shot 32% in the first six games. That’s Lebron when he HAS to score like Jordan.

When Jordan lost in the playoffs early in his career, he was putting up video game numbers against all time great teams.

In 1986, he dropped 63 points on one of the greatest Celtics team ever built.


In 1989, he averaged 45 points against the Badboy Pistons, the team that invented the Jordan rules just to slow him down.

What about when the pressure is highest? Elimination games.

Before winning his first championship, Jordan averaged 39 points in games where his team faced elimination. Lebron in the same situation? 27 points.
And in 2010 with Cleveland’s season on the line, he put up a whopping 15 points against Boston.

And he bolted.

In Jordan’s entire pre championship career? He never had consecutive playoff games shooting under 40%. Lebron did this 4 times in a row in the same series…. In the 2011 finals, against Dallas.

This is about showing up when it matters and completely shatters any scoring consistency debate between these two. It’s a wake up call for Lebron fans.

Jordan’s entire pre-championship career had just ONE truly bad playoff game, with a game score of 12.9 against the Badboy Pistons, the team that created the Jordan Rules. Every other was dominance.

Lebron didn’t have 1 game below that mark, not 2, not 5. He racked up 9 games worse than Jordan’s worst performance. In fact, during 1 Boston series, Lebron scored NEGATIVE points in the game score system, something Jordan never did in his entire career.

Jordan dominated with game scores of above 20 in 80% of his playoff performances. Lebron barely managed to hit that in 58% of his games. In the 2011 finals, he couldn’t even reach that once in the final four games.

Elimination games - Jordan averaged a game score of 28.3, and Lebron 19.6, what you’d expect from a great role player, not a GOAT.

Field goal percentage? Jordan shot over 45% in playoff games before his first ring, Lebron? Had entire shooting series shooting below 35%. TS%? Jordan never dipped below 52% in a series and Lebron had multiple in the 40’s. Jordan averaged .214 winshares per 48 in the playoffs prior to first championship and Lebron? .156

Jordan never had back to back playoff games shooting under 40%, which Lebron managed to do in the 2011 finals alone…. FOUR games in a row consecutively, with two other superstars on his team.

Lebron, at age 26, literally got outplayed by Jason Terry in the finals. It was so bad that he needed teammates to explain why he struggled in press conferences. Imagine Michael Jordan needing Scottie, Dennis Rodman or Tony Kukoc to explain why he couldn’t show up in the finals. This is the difference in their mindset - Jordan wanted the pressure, Lebron does not.

Jordan wants to defend the best players, Lebron would rather guard someone else. Jordan rose from 33 ppg to 39 ppg in elimination games, Lebron went from 28 to 24… shying from the pressure.

Jordan faced 38 50 win teams to Lebron’s 21.

In terms of career, over 73% of Jordan’s 50 point games were against winning teams whereas roughly 75% of lebron’s were against losing squads. That’s why his fifty piece in the finals surprised me and I finally called him “MJ’esque” that night.

When it comes to scoring consistency, there’s no debate here. 10 scoring titles to 1 is a mere outcome and reflection of all of this, as are 9 1st team defense from the videos above and the DPOY. Of course it matters. That’s silly to deny DPOY’s scoring titles just because lebron didnt get them.

The youtube video you were going on about, with its massive 2000 sub following, literally starts off with clips of Chuck, Skip Bayless, Stephen A. Smith with an AI voice over. Groundbreaking material that disproves my original take that Scoring Titles are moot here and that Lebron indeed played both sides of the court. Carry on glazing your hero and not understanding simple basketball concepts or failing miserably in reading comprehension. How off tangent you are from my two takes is astonishing. I’ll let you to it though, continue the rant no one ask for.

and yet, the stats are true and you know it.

Jordan playoff career - 33.4 ppg.
Lebron playoff career - 28.4 ppg

Jordan was regular peak season Harden in the playoffs throughout his career, shooting challenging shots when needed, and still is nearly the same efficiency as lebron’s lower volume, despite lebron relying on close to the rim shots. It’s not close in scoring prowess.

Thats why Lebron had so many scoring struggles. Can you please point out Jordan’s scoring struggles? I’ve pointed out plenty of lebron’s. How about lebron’s poor midrange and free throw percentage? Point out all of Jordan’s flaws in terms of scoring and scoring performances.

then you’ll see why….

Ten scoring titles.

I completely forgot about the part that scoring titles are a playoffs award.

Again, my point was that using that as a metric to affirm the goat is archaic and short-sighted. MJ & LBJ are two very different archetypes that played in very different eras. Likewise Duncan won his MVPs while Iverson and McGrady were averaging 32ppg. There’s more to basketball than just putting the ball in the hoop. I’m hoping the previous sentence doesn’t make you come up with another one of your straw man arguments. Speaking of which, I never even claimed Lebron to be the better scorer. Damn near regurgitated a wiki page with your years of collecting anti-Lebron propaganda over something I didn’t even say. Your wall of copy pasta reeks of revisionism and it’s littered with mistakes. For example, in 2010 vs the Celtics and with the season on the line, LeBron put up a 27 - 19 - 10 triple double before leaving to Miami, not 15 points.

You continually move the goal post when your lack of objectivity is proven (which was ultimately my goal here) until you’re pretty much just arguing with your lonesome self. Red-herring opinions by connecting dots that aren’t on the page. Quite deranged and clearly obsessed but anyways good job, I do applaud the effort and lengths you’ve gone to, however extraneous they are. And btw, Lebron has the higher FG% and TS% in the playoffs but that has no merit even for my side of the initial debate. I’d appreciate some introspection on your end as well, especially if you’re having difficulty with keeping track of what I did and did not type.

Watch on YouTube

[bledredwine]

The youtube video you were going on about, with its massive 2000 sub following, literally starts off with clips of Chuck, Skip Bayless, Stephen A. Smith with an AI voice over. Groundbreaking material that disproves my original take that Scoring Titles are moot here and that Lebron indeed played both sides of the court. Carry on glazing your hero and not understanding simple basketball concepts or failing miserably in reading comprehension. How off tangent you are from my two takes is astonishing. I’ll let you to it though, continue the rant no one ask for.

and yet, the stats are true and you know it.

Jordan playoff career - 33.4 ppg.
Lebron playoff career - 28.4 ppg

Jordan was regular peak season Harden in the playoffs throughout his career, shooting challenging shots when needed, and still is nearly the same efficiency as lebron’s lower volume, despite lebron relying on close to the rim shots. It’s not close in scoring prowess.

Thats why Lebron had so many scoring struggles. Can you please point out Jordan’s scoring struggles? I’ve pointed out plenty of lebron’s. How about lebron’s poor midrange and free throw percentage? Point out all of Jordan’s flaws in terms of scoring and scoring performances.

then you’ll see why….

Ten scoring titles.

I completely forgot about the part that scoring titles are a playoffs award.

Again, my point was that using that as a metric to affirm the goat is archaic and short-sighted. MJ & LBJ are two very different archetypes that played in very different eras. Likewise Duncan won his MVPs while Iverson and McGrady were averaging 32ppg. There’s more to basketball than just putting the ball in the hoop. I’m hoping the previous sentence doesn’t make you come up with another one of your straw man arguments. Speaking of which, I never even claimed Lebron to be the better scorer. Damn near regurgitated a wiki page with your years of collecting anti-Lebron propaganda over something I didn’t even say. Your wall of copy pasta reeks of revisionism and it’s littered with mistakes. For example, in 2010 vs the Celtics and with the season on the line, LeBron put up a 27 - 19 - 10 triple double before leaving to Miami, not 15 points.

You continually move the goal post when your lack of objectivity is proven (which was ultimately my goal here) until you’re pretty much just arguing with your lonesome self. Red-herring opinions by connecting dots that aren’t on the page. Quite deranged and clearly obsessed but anyways good job, I do applaud the effort and lengths you’ve gone to, however extraneous they are. And btw, Lebron has the higher FG% and TS% in the playoffs but that has no merit even for my side of the initial debate. I’d appreciate some introspection on your end as well, especially if you’re having difficulty with keeping track of what I did and did not type.

Watch on YouTube

How often did Jordan not lead the playoffs in scoring? Not total as you'll want to cherry pick, but what matters, performance aka points per game.

Lebron's led once.

He was regular season Harden, if Harden didn't rely on threes/baiting, and had an arsenal of versatile moves
to get through the paint packed with bigs as well as a post up game with the best midrange and inside game the league has seen, or at the least, from any perimeter player.

[Kawaii Leonard]

and yet, the stats are true and you know it.

Jordan playoff career - 33.4 ppg.
Lebron playoff career - 28.4 ppg

Jordan was regular peak season Harden in the playoffs throughout his career, shooting challenging shots when needed, and still is nearly the same efficiency as lebron’s lower volume, despite lebron relying on close to the rim shots. It’s not close in scoring prowess.

Thats why Lebron had so many scoring struggles. Can you please point out Jordan’s scoring struggles? I’ve pointed out plenty of lebron’s. How about lebron’s poor midrange and free throw percentage? Point out all of Jordan’s flaws in terms of scoring and scoring performances.

then you’ll see why….

Ten scoring titles.

I completely forgot about the part that scoring titles are a playoffs award.

Again, my point was that using that as a metric to affirm the goat is archaic and short-sighted. MJ & LBJ are two very different archetypes that played in very different eras. Likewise Duncan won his MVPs while Iverson and McGrady were averaging 32ppg. There’s more to basketball than just putting the ball in the hoop. I’m hoping the previous sentence doesn’t make you come up with another one of your straw man arguments. Speaking of which, I never even claimed Lebron to be the better scorer. Damn near regurgitated a wiki page with your years of collecting anti-Lebron propaganda over something I didn’t even say. Your wall of copy pasta reeks of revisionism and it’s littered with mistakes. For example, in 2010 vs the Celtics and with the season on the line, LeBron put up a 27 - 19 - 10 triple double before leaving to Miami, not 15 points.

You continually move the goal post when your lack of objectivity is proven (which was ultimately my goal here) until you’re pretty much just arguing with your lonesome self. Red-herring opinions by connecting dots that aren’t on the page. Quite deranged and clearly obsessed but anyways good job, I do applaud the effort and lengths you’ve gone to, however extraneous they are. And btw, Lebron has the higher FG% and TS% in the playoffs but that has no merit even for my side of the initial debate. I’d appreciate some introspection on your end as well, especially if you’re having difficulty with keeping track of what I did and did not type.

Watch on YouTube

How often did Jordan not lead the playoffs in scoring? Not total as you'll want to cherry pick, but what matters, performance aka points per game.

Lebron's led once.

He was regular season Harden, if Harden didn't rely on threes/baiting, and had an arsenal of versatile moves
to get through the paint packed with bigs as well as a post up game with the best midrange and inside game the league has seen, or at the least, from any perimeter player.

All-time highest OBPM in a single playoff run:

Lebron 2009: +12.8
Jordan 1991: 10.5
Jordan 1990: 10.2
Lebron 2018: 10.1
Jordan 1993 / Jokic 2023: 9.7
Jordan 1989: 9.1
Jordan 1996: 8.8
Lebron 2014: 8.5
Lebron 2013: 8.4
Jordan 1992 / Curry 2017: 8.3


The most offense generated in a single playoff run (points from scoring + assists per game):

Jokic 2023: 55.7
Lebron 2018: 54.7
Magic 1986: 51.8
Jordan 1990: 51.0


Now back on topic with scoring titles;

- If Lebron attempted as many shots as the league leader did, and his shooting splits stayed the same—which tend to be the case for volume scorers—he would have won 12 scoring titles throughout his career.



- In fact throughout Jordan’s 13 seasons with the Bulls, he averaged 23.3 shots per game. If Lebron averaged 23.3 shots per game throughout his career, he would have a career scoring average of 32.2ppg, the highest of all time, edging out Jordan and his 30ppg.