Kon Air: The Kon Knueppel Thread

[vexco]

i dont really get the hypersensitivity about the low ceiling thing, its not like people critical of the Kon pick (this is not the same thing as Kon hate or Kon criticism) are making this up, its part of his literal consensus draft profile. i get that it takes some presumption compared to saying like "Ace Bailey doesnt look like he's gonna be a high level distributor in the NBA" cause you can just point to APG and A/TO but when you're talking about scouts consensus theyre basically equivalent statements to me.

I don't think anyone's being sensitive about the low ceiling thing. I just think that after watching him, people think his ceiling may be higher than anticipated.

i think that would be kind of bizarre to change your entire draft profile of him based on a few SL games where basically everyone else shut down their top guys after 1-2 games. he played pretty well, but not blowing expectations out of the water for a high floor low ceiling 4th overall pick or anything.

I don't care about his counting stats at all but his playmaking was way better than I personally anticipated. Much better passer than I thought.

[vexco]

I don't think his ceiling is any higher at all. He still had difficulty scoring 1-on-1 and doesn't have the length nor athleticism to reliably manufacture offense which is a HUGE limiter to his upside.

Still saw him getting targeted on defense in 1-on-1 situations and he's going to be hunted whenever the other team needs a bucket or in late game scenarios.

Nothing he did in SL changed that.

He did show some better than expected off ball (team defense) and can definitely shoot. The toughness was nice to see too.

I still feel exactly how I felt about him before: Not the archetype you pick #4 and not what the team ultimately needs (pure talent). He's never going to be a top 3 player on any good team and is ultimately hoping he sticks as a role player. At least he looks "high floor".

I also still find it humorous that people were falling over themselves to say "SL means nothing" until he put up a solid SL.

SL still doesn't matter from a counting stats perspective but it's fair to say that his passing was much better than I thought it would be. He showed vision and nice control in pnr situations and gotdamn does this team need a secondary playmaker.

[Chapelchilla]

Noticed how the Kon negative comments have stopped. We tried to tell people if he plays better we will praise him.

The gatekeepers this is how it works. Play well we all will praise. Stop calling us haters for speaking on what we see in reality.

It's not the opinions that are annoying, it's them being made over and over and compounded into other criticisms.

"We've already seen enough to know he won't be a worthwhile pick" turns into

"The FO only picked him because they are overcorrecting for their last pick" turns into

"They don't even want to be good" turns into

"The FO clearly has no idea what they're doing"

Then these takes get repeated over and over and over. That's what gets annoying.

Great that you can change your take based on performance, that's legitimately a good think and something every credible poster should be open to, but that doesn't undo the fact that we had to read the constant, repeated takes made with absolute certainty about where we are and what's happening with the team.

Exactly!

It's a couple people stating their OPINIONS as if they are undeniably facts and then using those opinions to spin (or troll) their personal narrative's.

Kon wasn't my first choice or even the 3rd but he is here, playing well so far and helping lead the guys he played with to wins (fact).
It's a really good start, though not the big leagues yet. I think he will be at least useful there too (opinion).

[JMAC3]

Last night was his best and worst game in some ways.

He showed the ability to get to the rim way more in this game, actually finishing 3 half court layups. Other games he was getting 0 or 1 per game, so that was something I wanted to see more.

However, there were times where his lack of burst showed up. Devin Carter had multiple possessions where Kon got blocked or completely bottled up at end of shot clocks. He also had some more issues with turnovers as the game was more physical at times then other games we have played.

His shooting was a bit off, but he still made 4 threes by end of the game which is still really good.

Overall shooting 21 times to score 21 is typically not a very good game though.

[Rich4114]

For anyone who watched Kon during the SL, I am sure you had to notice the plays he either made, enabled or was available to make where KJ or others just never looked his way. He took a lot of tough shots that would've been much easier/open had the pass come when it was supposed to.

Outside of the inconsistent shooting, he made the right play almost every time he had the ball or was in the play. His passing is way better than I thought. I think he is going to be an elevator/winning type player. LaMelo and Miller might look better/more efficient with Kon on the court.

[KingCat]

Last night was his best and worst game in some ways.

He showed the ability to get to the rim way more in this game, actually finishing 3 half court layups. Other games he was getting 0 or 1 per game, so that was something I wanted to see more.

However, there were times where his lack of burst showed up. Devin Carter had multiple possessions where Kon got blocked or completely bottled up at end of shot clocks. He also had some more issues with turnovers as the game was more physical at times then other games we have played.

His shooting was a bit off, but he still made 4 threes by end of the game which is still really good.

Overall shooting 21 times to score 21 is typically not a very good game though.

Yeah he had a good summer league overall, but i didn't see anything that dissuades my main concern of his athleticism just not being good enough.

Good news is in the big league, teams won't be able to put their best perimeter defenders and focus their defensive game plan on him like in SL. Bad news is I can't see him ever being a 3rd or higher options due to his lack of burst.

[JustBuzzin]

Noticed how the Kon negative comments have stopped. We tried to tell people if he plays better we will praise him.

The gatekeepers this is how it works. Play well we all will praise. Stop calling us haters for speaking on what we see in reality.

It's not the opinions that are annoying, it's them being made over and over and compounded into other criticisms.

"We've already seen enough to know he won't be a worthwhile pick" turns into

"The FO only picked him because they are overcorrecting for their last pick" turns into

"They don't even want to be good" turns into

"The FO clearly has no idea what they're doing"

Then these takes get repeated over and over and over. That's what gets annoying.

Great that you can change your take based on performance, that's legitimately a good think and something every credible poster should be open to, but that doesn't undo the fact that we had to read the constant, repeated takes made with absolute certainty about where we are and what's happening with the team.

Exactly!

It's a couple people stating their OPINIONS as if they are undeniably facts and then using those opinions to spin (or troll) their personal narrative's.

Kon wasn't my first choice or even the 3rd but he is here, playing well so far and helping lead the guys he played with to wins (fact).
It's a really good start, though not the big leagues yet. I think he will be at least useful there too (opinion).

People have different opinions. You guys are proving my point. Why does it matter what they say if it's a basketball opinion respect those opinions even if you don't agree with it.

Nobody is actively rooting for Kon to fail. People questioned Salaun all last season. It's fine to have different opinions.

[driveandkick]

Last night was his best and worst game in some ways.

He showed the ability to get to the rim way more in this game, actually finishing 3 half court layups. Other games he was getting 0 or 1 per game, so that was something I wanted to see more.

However, there were times where his lack of burst showed up. Devin Carter had multiple possessions where Kon got blocked or completely bottled up at end of shot clocks. He also had some more issues with turnovers as the game was more physical at times then other games we have played.

His shooting was a bit off, but he still made 4 threes by end of the game which is still really good.

Overall shooting 21 times to score 21 is typically not a very good game though.

Good post. And yeah Carter had some legitimate high level on ball defense on Kon that rattled him pretty good. I will say he’s never going to be expected to be the guy with 5 seconds on a shot clock where you get him the ball and have him make some magic happen. That’s just not his game and never will be be. So I’m not too shook by that. In season his role will be open and be an outlet for LaMelo if he needs in that situation

[JDR720]

Not saying Kon is going to be a high volume scorer, but I think people may overestimate how important athleticism is for scoring is in todays NBA due to the volume of 3pt shooting. Pretty much every starting guard/SF who is a top 10 scorer at their position takes at least 5-6 3PA's per game.



Lets look at the SG's

Edwards: 10 3PA attempts
Booker 7 attempts.
Mitchell 9 attempts
LaVine 7 attempts
Harden: 8.5 attempts
Brown: 5.7 attempts
Powell: 7 attempts
Barrett 5 attempts
Green: 8 attempts
Poole: 9 attempts
Reaves 7 attempts

That's all the SG's who average at least 20ppg.

DeMar is listed as a SF, but he even shoots 3 per game.


If Kon shoots 40% and takes 7-8 three's per game, he'll get into the mid-teens.

I think the bigger issue with Kon's scoring is it's just not his game to be a volume shooter.

Kon is more likely to be a 15ppg game guy on high efficiency than a guy who takes 15shots per game to score 20+pts.

[JMAC3]

Not saying Kon is going to be a high volume scorer, but I think people may overestimate how important athleticism is for scoring is in todays NBA due to the volume of 3pt shooting. Pretty much every starting guard/SF who is a top 10 scorer at their position takes at least 5-6 3PA's per game.



Lets look at the SG's

Edwards: 10 3PA attempts
Booker 7 attempts.
Mitchell 9 attempts
LaVine 7 attempts
Harden: 8.5 attempts
Brown: 5.7 attempts
Powell: 7 attempts
Barrett 5 attempts
Green: 8 attempts
Poole: 9 attempts
Reaves 7 attempts

That's all the SG's who average at least 20ppg.

DeMar is listed as a SF, but he even shoots 3 per game.


If Kon shoots 40% and takes 7-8 three's per game, he'll get into the mid-teens.

I think the bigger issue with Kon's scoring is it's just not his game to be a volume shooter.

Kon is more likely to be a 15ppg game guy on high efficiency than a guy who takes 15shots per game to score 20+pts.

Or you could say that the fact that these guys are all really good athletes helps them earn all these three point attempts per game. These guys are all capable of creating their own shoot from 3 off the dribble and don't heavily rely on a bunch of catch and shoot 3s to attempt this many shots.

[JMAC3]

In general, I still have a lot of the concerns I had about Kon in college coming into the NBA. He was an afterthought for defenses and because of that he was able to flourish playing off Flagg getting a lot of open shots. He will likely take advantage of that in Charlotte by playing off LaMelo and Miller, but I expect him to be securely behind those guys still moving forward which is fine I suppose, but I also wouldn't have minded having some optimism that the #4 pick in the draft might eventually become our best player.

Things I liked before and still like. He is a good shooter, especially off the catch. He plays smart and limits turnovers and takes what the defense gives him as a passer. He cares about winning and likely won't ever be a locker room distraction.

Things I was down on before and still down on. He isn't great at getting to the rim. He played 5 games in SL and he probably only had 5 driving layups in those games, mainly a guy that relies on his jumper. He doesn't get to free throw line that much. 3.8 FTA per game was 5th best on our SL team. He lacks the ability to shoot off the dribble or shoot from deep NBA range, he made a few but overall I would say both of these areas he struggled in SL.

The biggest unknown to me is still his defense- NBA teams are going to challenge him on that end and it will be the likes of Trae, Luka, Anthony Edwards and Tyler Herro targeting him on defense instead of SL talents of Brooks Barnhizer, David Jones-Garcia and Ryan Nembhard. Most of the guys in SL are playing SL for a reason and moving to the NBA where everyone is stronger, faster, more athletic is still likely to cause him issues and I don't think we truly will know until 15-20 games in how big of an issue it could be.

I still stand on I would probably not have taken in the top 8 but he is a Hornet so I will root for him. Doesn't mean I am going to ignore some of these limitations and concerns. Especially not after averaging 15 ppg in SL vs fringe NBA talent - I expect him to be one of our top 8 players this year but I still think ultimately, I will end up disappointed with his ceiling as a top 5 pick.

[GiggitySmalls]

Kon played good, but we should have picked Tre Johnson. Nothing he did changed that.

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[fatlever]

if i'm an opposing coach and i'm game planning to target a specific hornets player on defense, it's gonna be melo. every. single. time.

[JMAC3]

if i'm an opposing coach and i'm game planning to target a specific hornets player on defense, it's gonna be melo. every. single. time.

Is this a selling point on Kon?

[MasterIchiro]

if i'm an opposing coach and i'm game planning to target a specific hornets player on defense, it's gonna be melo. every. single. time.

Well, manslaughter is justifiable because some other guy committed murder.

I hate comparisons like this.

Player X doesn't suck at Y because player Z sucks worse! Therefore, concerns over player X are easily dismissed, like criminal charges!

[vexco]

Kon played good, but we should have picked Tre Johnson. Nothing he did changed that.

Sent from my SM-S936U using RealGM mobile app

Why? Kon was a better shooter and at least puts in effort on defense. Tre was a turnstile whose only plus above Kon is athleticism.

[fatlever]

if i'm an opposing coach and i'm game planning to target a specific hornets player on defense, it's gonna be melo. every. single. time.

Well, manslaughter is justifiable because some other guy committed murder.

I hate comparisons like this.

Player X doesn't suck at Y because player Z sucks worse! Therefore, concerns over player X are easily dismissed, like criminal charges!

not a selling point... just saying, if melo, kon, miller are on floor at same time, the smartest play is to target melo, not kon.
kon will be an average defender on our roster eventually. not the best, not the worst. too smart, footwork too good, too strong, too much will/hustle. it wont be kon bringing our defense down. his defense is overall gonna be neutral, by his 2nd season.

[JMAC3]

Glad we won SL, but also seeing some takes here and on Twitter that are probably overvaluing SL a bit too much. Annual reminder that if you are an NBA player of any type you should be able to produce in SL.

Kobe Bufkin averaged 19.5 ppg 5.3 rpg and 4.3 apg
Baylor Scheierman averaged 12.3 ppg 5.3 rpg and 6.8 apg
Jaylon Tyson averaged 19.7 ppg, 6 rpg, 6.7 apg
Tyrese Proctor averaged 17 ppg
Drew Timme averaged 25.3 ppg and 8 rpg
Enrique Freeman averaged 16.6 ppg and 9.6 rpg
Chris Livingston averaged 20.8 ppg
Wendell Moore Jr averaaged 13.8 ppg
Ryan Rupert averaged 16 ppg
Issac Jones averaged 18.3 ppg
AJ Lawson averaged 18.5 ppg

So yeah glad Kon ended up looking solid and averaged 15 ppg on meh shooting %, but to me it is not some great indicator that he is going to translate to the NBA. Most of these guys on this list aren't even going to be rotation players this year.

[Braggins]

He got cooked on defense in the first game and sat out the second game. In the last three games he held his own but I dont think he was good and had plenty of iffy moments. Teams were also playing their B squads in the last three games and Kon was very clearly the most talented player on the court by multiple tiers. I think Carter Bryant played in the Spurs game but he is a 3&D guy and not somehow who will test anyones defense. The closest thing to an NBA level guard they faced in those games was Devin Carter I think.

I don't think his team defense will be as much of an issue because of his IQ, but I do still question his on ball defense. Its better than being bad in both areas at least and you saw how the inverse can be an issue last night with Sacramento, where they had plenty of decent individual defenders (a couple pretty good) but their team defense was awful and they were leaving guys open constantly off basic ball movement.

[MasterIchiro]

Those numbers are fine but after watching Salaün last season, eye test alone, witnessing Kon consistently make smart plays, control space, and make shots has been a breath of fresh air. It does not look like he will bust the way Salaün has thus far. Salaün has no **** clue what to do with the ball in his hands. None. Whereas Kon looks really good with the ball in his hands. While I maintain Ace, Fears, and Tre Johnson have more upside, I would be fine if Kon tops out as a third option who never makes an AS team. But I will happily do a victory dance after the 2024 draft.