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sco wrote:I'm more interested if PWill goes out in the transaction. That said, do we think that the chances of Kuminga doing things that he never has are greater than Pwill just going back to doing things he did his first year or two?
2weekswithpay wrote:I could convince myself that Kuminga might be worth it if he signs for 20M AAV and it only costs Ayo to get him. Anything more than this is probably too much for me.
sco wrote:dougthonus wrote:MrSparkle wrote:Kuminga is a talented prospect stuck in a couple of jams (inc. this dead cap free agency).
Why are we sure that a non play making, non shooting, guard with a TS% of 53% in his 4th year in the league that fell out of favor with a Warriors team that had the most elite off-ball player in the league as their center piece is a "a talented prospect stuck in a couple of jams" instead of a non talented rotation player similar to all the guys you mentioned?
My general problem with the Kuminga talk is that people have decided Kuminga is a highly talented, high upside player, when the reality is that from a basketball skill perspective, he is very untalented. He's an athletic guy that hasn't really resolved most of the skill issues inside the four years he's been in the league and has fallen out of favor with a team that could have desperately used him.
He's a "buy low" candidate if the price is actually low, but so is Okoro. The difference is Okoro's price is ACTUALLY low and Kuminga's isn't.
I'm more interested if PWill goes out in the transaction. That said, do we think that the chances of Kuminga doing things that he never has are greater than Pwill just going back to doing things he did his first year or two?
JohnnyKILLroy wrote:Ayo for Kuminga ? Have people not watched Ayo? He's miles better than Kuminga. Last I checked he played for the Bulls and people here should know that.
NecessaryEvil wrote:
Infinity2152 wrote:I can see one upside to a Kuminga trade. No, he's not a fit with Noa starting. Noa's not starting, he may barely get minutes this year as is. Okoro can play off the bench. Kuminga and Lauri could pretty easily start for a year, while we evaluate Okoro and let Noa grow up a little. I don't think Kuminga's getting $30 mill at this point. Kuminga on a $28.6 mill starting year front loaded contract could be an extremely valuable trade piece next summer, if Noa is ready. If we're talking about giving up expiring Ayo and minimal extra's, go for it. $25 mill for Kuminga means we could send $12.5 mill. Offer them Ayo, Carter, and a second. Don't think they even have a backup PG, Carter could provide some value.
dougthonus wrote:Infinity2152 wrote:I can see one upside to a Kuminga trade. No, he's not a fit with Noa starting. Noa's not starting, he may barely get minutes this year as is. Okoro can play off the bench. Kuminga and Lauri could pretty easily start for a year, while we evaluate Okoro and let Noa grow up a little. I don't think Kuminga's getting $30 mill at this point. Kuminga on a $28.6 mill starting year front loaded contract could be an extremely valuable trade piece next summer, if Noa is ready. If we're talking about giving up expiring Ayo and minimal extra's, go for it. $25 mill for Kuminga means we could send $12.5 mill. Offer them Ayo, Carter, and a second. Don't think they even have a backup PG, Carter could provide some value.
I agree on not worrying about Noa.
I'd say fundamentally trading for a guy and signing him to the most money anyone wants to pay him this year and giving up value to get him doesn't seem like a strategy that will yield a good trade asset the majority of the time. You already gave up something to be top of market on price, and now need his price to go up by enough that it also trumps the value you already lost in trading for him.
Philosophically, this is a losing strategy. To win, you need to be more right on the player than every other team as well as be more right by enough to trump what you gave up in the process?
Infinity2152 wrote:From a straight value perspective, I wouldn't worry about what other teams who can't make moves, are over the cap, have starting PF's, drafted PF's, etc aren't bidding on Kuminga. There are 50 reasons why many teams aren't bidding on Kuminga other than they don't think he's worth a contract. How about the fact that any bargain offer is probably matched by the Warriors, he's a restricted free agent.
Straight value assessment. From a pure asset point of view, is getting an asset of Kuminga's level for expiring Ayo, expiring Carter and a second a better long term value? As in past this year. The every other teams, many teams are clearing cap as hard as possible. Every summer before this, most high level RFA's get offers in the first week, if not day 1, minute 1. Usually overpriced, only way to steal a RFA. The Warriors would be selling Kuminga undervalue in my opinion, since they really don't want to bring him back. As long as they get something positive. I'd consider Ayo, Carter and a second a bargain price to pay for a guy considered one of the top RFA's this summer. Ouside the second round pick, Ayo and Carter cancel each other's value out at best on our team, and they're expiring.
This is looking at Kuminga as an asset, not as a player. If your contention is he won't be considered a deal on a front loaded contract next summer, I just disagree. People keep thinking teams are going to act differently than they have every single summer except this one and not go crazy bidding for guys. Teams are paying stupid amounts to keep players, they don't care about the cap, and worse players than Kuminga will get big contracts next summer.
The value is expiring Ayo, Carter who we'd love to get rid of and open up the roster spot, and a second. Basically just expiring Ayo, because we'd probably give up a second just to move Carter and open up the roster spot. Is Ayo above replacement level player right now? Which is zero positive value by contract (small-medium expiring).
Is every player who signs a market value, non max contract overpaid in your opinion? How many free agent signings between $25 mill and $45 mill have you said, great job?
Then tell me why those players couldn't have had a bad year the next year and underplayed their contracts.
sco wrote:I haven't heard anywhere that the Bulls are still interested in Kuminga. Has anyone? I feel like the FO has moved on. Given what they're offering Giddey, I doubt they'd offer more to Kuminga...which means that GSW would just match that "bargain deal".
Muzbar wrote:sco wrote:I haven't heard anywhere that the Bulls are still interested in Kuminga. Has anyone? I feel like the FO has moved on. Given what they're offering Giddey, I doubt they'd offer more to Kuminga...which means that GSW would just match that "bargain deal".
The only noise out there at the moment is that Kuminga's camp would prefer to join the Bulls. But I haven't really seen anything about the Bulls still having an significant interest.
Honestly I don't think there's much interest out there at all in Kuminga.
As someone who was big on Kuminga in a previous season, I think I'm out on him. I'd actually rather stand pat than add JK at this point.
sco wrote:Muzbar wrote:sco wrote:I haven't heard anywhere that the Bulls are still interested in Kuminga. Has anyone? I feel like the FO has moved on. Given what they're offering Giddey, I doubt they'd offer more to Kuminga...which means that GSW would just match that "bargain deal".
The only noise out there at the moment is that Kuminga's camp would prefer to join the Bulls. But I haven't really seen anything about the Bulls still having an significant interest.
Honestly I don't think there's much interest out there at all in Kuminga.
As someone who was big on Kuminga in a previous season, I think I'm out on him. I'd actually rather stand pat than add JK at this point.
Saw somewhere that Phoenix is interested but doesn't have the assets.
dougthonus wrote:Infinity2152 wrote:From a straight value perspective, I wouldn't worry about what other teams who can't make moves, are over the cap, have starting PF's, drafted PF's, etc aren't bidding on Kuminga. There are 50 reasons why many teams aren't bidding on Kuminga other than they don't think he's worth a contract. How about the fact that any bargain offer is probably matched by the Warriors, he's a restricted free agent.
In this case, the Warriors seem quite willing to trade him, so that is a bit different than some of the other situations. And sure, there might be plenty of reasons teams aren't interested, but given the Warriors are very open to trading him, no one else seems to be in the mix right now, and that should be a red flag.Straight value assessment. From a pure asset point of view, is getting an asset of Kuminga's level for expiring Ayo, expiring Carter and a second a better long term value? As in past this year. The every other teams, many teams are clearing cap as hard as possible. Every summer before this, most high level RFA's get offers in the first week, if not day 1, minute 1. Usually overpriced, only way to steal a RFA. The Warriors would be selling Kuminga undervalue in my opinion, since they really don't want to bring him back. As long as they get something positive. I'd consider Ayo, Carter and a second a bargain price to pay for a guy considered one of the top RFA's this summer. Ouside the second round pick, Ayo and Carter cancel each other's value out at best on our team, and they're expiring.
From the Bulls perspective, Ayo is likely a positive asset they can get something else for. Carter is basically a neutral for us as he's just salary filler. Say Ayo is worth a non lotto first, then for this to be a good value play, you'd need to later get more than a non lotto 1st and a 2nd for Kuminga vs just trading Ayo for that now.
The Warriors aren't selling Kuminga undervalued. If he was willing to sign undervalued, they'd just sign him.This is looking at Kuminga as an asset, not as a player. If your contention is he won't be considered a deal on a front loaded contract next summer, I just disagree. People keep thinking teams are going to act differently than they have every single summer except this one and not go crazy bidding for guys. Teams are paying stupid amounts to keep players, they don't care about the cap, and worse players than Kuminga will get big contracts next summer.
Agree that each summer is unique. Worse players than Kuminga is an interesting statement. I think Kuminga kind of stinks. Like if Kuminga never got better than this, I'm not sure I'd want him on the MLE.The value is expiring Ayo, Carter who we'd love to get rid of and open up the roster spot, and a second. Basically just expiring Ayo, because we'd probably give up a second just to move Carter and open up the roster spot. Is Ayo above replacement level player right now? Which is zero positive value by contract (small-medium expiring).
Carter does nothing negative for us, Ayo has positive trade value IMO. The opportunity cost is trading Ayo for something else.Is every player who signs a market value, non max contract overpaid in your opinion? How many free agent signings between $25 mill and $45 mill have you said, great job?
Yeah, I think the majority of these contracts suck. i've stated that before that I would not want to build around guys in this price range and think its a losing proposition. Kuminga on a 25M AAV contract should be your 4th best guy, I don't think Kuminga is that guy today or in the future.Then tell me why those players couldn't have had a bad year the next year and underplayed their contracts.
Not sure what you mean.
