Shams: Raps acquire Ingram for Brown + Olynyk + IND 1st

[brownbobcat]

So again...when you choose to just not believe something REASONABLE, it's arguing in bad faith.

Ingram wanted 50 million in the summer. Pels offered less. They offered 40×4 in Feb, he declined and decided to look elsewhere where both Raps and Atl were willing to bet on him bouncing back, especially at such a low acquiring cost.

It's reasonable to think Ingram turned down an extra $45M just because he is so enamored with the Toronto Raptors - a city and franchise he has zero connection with? The only place I could find stating this was unnamed "league sources" from Stein, tell me how that isn't just a rumour. Seems like awfully well-timed PR to me considering that just a week before the trade, Stein himself reported:

"The reason he's headed for free agency is because he and the Pelicans have gotten nowhere close to a contract extension ... the figure that Jake [Fischer] is consistently reporting is, the Pelicans didn't even want to go to $40 million/year".

Wow, somebody suddenly wants to spin what a great deal this was for Toronto.

You look at what NOP have done since the trade - and I'm not saying they only make good decisions - and I think it's incredibly unlikely they give $160M/4 to Ingram in the offseason. Again, why would they at that point?

Reality is Siakam got 3 1sts for us and makes 45 million next year. BI cost us 1 1st and cost us 38 million next year. That's a good trade off...and the only reason BI isn't getting Siakam's contract IS because of his health. Hell, OG makes more this coming year. BI isn't a top 30 paid guy in the league.

Again, just because you say a deal is a bad one doesn't make it gospel.

Siakam is a better and more consistent player than Ingram - that's the reason he gets paid more. You could argue the same for OG as well even though he has his own injury concerns. The biggest difference is that NYK had a ton of excess $ to play with because Brunson and Bridges were making far below market value on their contracts.

[tsherkin]

So the only way to really respond to you is by accumulating a couple more years of data since all of the good play can be attributed to fluke play. I know you are on a mission.

Lets chat in a couple of years.

No, when I have some time, I want to look into the difference pre/post trade in ATB 3pt shooting in that season. Because there's a very significant possibility that it changed after the trade. He blows at shooting above the break, so if his volume shifted, it could have been a meaningful thing. Same same with percentage of shots assisted and how many dribbles he was taking leading into the shots and stuff.

I didn't mean to sound dismissive of the notion. Skeptical, perhaps, but there's still in-season data from 2024 which is relevant to your point which I didn't have, and which could highlight the correlation more.

[Tripod]

So again...when you choose to just not believe something REASONABLE, it's arguing in bad faith.

Ingram wanted 50 million in the summer. Pels offered less. They offered 40×4 in Feb, he declined and decided to look elsewhere where both Raps and Atl were willing to bet on him bouncing back, especially at such a low acquiring cost.

It's reasonable to think Ingram turned down an extra $45M just because he is so enamored with the Toronto Raptors - a city and franchise he has zero connection with? The only place I could find stating this was unnamed "league sources" from Stein, tell me how that isn't just a rumour. Seems like awfully well-timed PR to me considering that just a week before the trade, Stein himself reported:

"The reason he's headed for free agency is because he and the Pelicans have gotten nowhere close to a contract extension ... the figure that Jake [Fischer] is consistently reporting is, the Pelicans didn't even want to go to $40 million/year".

Wow, somebody suddenly wants to spin what a great deal this was for Toronto.

Reality is Siakam got 3 1sts for us and makes 45 million next year. BI cost us 1 1st and cost us 38 million next year. That's a good trade off...and the only reason BI isn't getting Siakam's contract IS because of his health. Hell, OG makes more this coming year. BI isn't a top 30 paid guy in the league.

Again, just because you say a deal is a bad one doesn't make it gospel.

Siakam is a better and more consistent player than Ingram - that's the reason he gets paid more. You could argue the same for OG as well even though he has his own injury concerns. The biggest difference is that NYK had a ton of excess $ to play with because Brunson and Bridges were making far below market value on their contracts.

Ok...so you want to believe Stein that NO didn't want to get $40, but not believe the exact same people who say there WAS an offer and it was turned down. Huh.

Oh, so it IS OK to overpay when it's convenient like OG...to be your 3rd/4th scoring option, but not when it's your #1 scoring option. Cool.

Siakam isn't better and more consistent...he has been healthier. And that's why he is being paid 7 million more.

One is paid correctly by you and the other you think should make 17 million less.

[brownbobcat]

Ok...so you want to believe Stein that NO didn't want to get $40, but not believe the exact same people who say there WAS an offer and it was turned down. Huh.

Are you not guilty of the same thing now that I've given you a contradictory "report"? What is fairly undeniable is that there was an impasse on the contract - exact figures are never going to be known and there are some conflicting reports on the number.

This is where common sense evaluation comes in. Brandon Ingram is not the type of player that is going to have multiple suitors lining up to pay him $40M/yr. And that works fine for him because he only needs 1 sucker desperate enough to write the cheque.

My evaluation of the facts is that Toronto was that sucker, and not some special bachelor that Ingram decided to bestow with his final rose. Toronto had to use Brown's contract or lose it because he wasn't going to get anything close to $23M/yr again. Common sense also tells me Ingram didn't leave big dollars on the table - certainly not $40M worth - and that Paul shopped him around in search of the biggest bag.

Oh, so it IS OK to overpay when it's convenient like OG...to be your 3rd/4th scoring option, but not when it's your #1 scoring option. Cool.

Siakam isn't better and more consistent...he has been healthier. And that's why he is being paid 7 million more.

One is paid correctly by you and the other you think should make 17 million less.

Talk about bad faith. Siakam is no superstar, but he's 2X All NBA, 3X All Star, and there is absolutely zero question that he's better than Ingram. Consistency and availability are also abilities. Siakam's fatal flaw on this team is that he didn't fit with Barnes - and honestly, that seems like a sillier priority with each passing day.

As for OG, again with the bad faith. Paying him big money is not fine for Toronto, but it is for NYK because they were going deep in the playoffs and had their #1 guy on a better value contract. Their window is now, so they can overpay because you can always move OG. He may be a "role player", but he's maybe the best in the league - you could start him on ANY elite team in the league and he would play 30-35 minutes in the playoffs. You can't say the same about Ingram.

[pingpongrac]

Ok...so you want to believe Stein that NO didn't want to get $40, but not believe the exact same people who say there WAS an offer and it was turned down. Huh.

Are you not guilty of the same thing now that I've given you a contradictory "report"? What is fairly undeniable is that there was an impasse on the contract - exact figures are never going to be known and there are some conflicting reports on the number.

This is where common sense evaluation comes in. Brandon Ingram is not the type of player that is going to have multiple suitors lining up to pay him $40M/yr. And that works fine for him because he only needs 1 sucker desperate enough to write the cheque.

My evaluation of the facts is that Toronto was that sucker, and not some special bachelor that Ingram decided to bestow with his final rose. Toronto had to use Brown's contract or lose it because he wasn't going to get anything close to $23M/yr again. Common sense also tells me Ingram didn't leave big dollars on the table - certainly not $40M worth - and that Paul shopped him around in search of the biggest bag.

Oh, so it IS OK to overpay when it's convenient like OG...to be your 3rd/4th scoring option, but not when it's your #1 scoring option. Cool.

Siakam isn't better and more consistent...he has been healthier. And that's why he is being paid 7 million more.

One is paid correctly by you and the other you think should make 17 million less.

Talk about bad faith. Siakam is no superstar, but he's 2X All NBA, 3X All Star, and there is absolutely zero question that he's better than Ingram. Consistency and availability are also abilities. Siakam's fatal flaw on this team is that he didn't fit with Barnes - and honestly, that seems like a sillier priority with each passing day.

As for OG, again with the bad faith. Paying him big money is not fine for Toronto, but it is for NYK because they were going deep in the playoffs and had their #1 guy on a better value contract. Their window is now, so they can overpay because you can always move OG. He may be a "role player", but he's maybe the best in the league - you could start him on ANY elite team in the league and he would play 30-35 minutes in the playoffs. You can't say the same about Ingram.

I have been one of Siakam's biggest supporters and fans for a long time, but it is arguable that he is a better than Ingram at their absolute bests. The reality is Siakam has generally been healthy and is good for 35-40 MPG if necessary while Ingram hasn't had many healthy/full seasons (for a variety of reasons) since 20/21, but they are in a similar tier of stars where they are borderline all-stars to borderline All-NBA 2nd/3rd team kind of guys depending on the season. Regarding the OG/Ingram remark, you absolutely can say the same thing about Ingram. He would play ~36 MPG for every team in the league in the playoffs. It seems like you've just forgotten how good Ingram actually is because of his injuries.

[Dalek]

Read on Twitter

Rich Paul said that Ingram would not have got what he got with Toronto in the open market. Our desperate front office decided to overpay without assessing the open market. Now Ingram's some how getting $40m a season. We should boycott Rich Paul and the next FO has to stop the overpay. Focus on getting young where we hold the RFA card, not this trade and pay model Masai loves.

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

It really just seems like a desperate GM made a desperate move tbh.

[canada_dry]

Read on Twitter

Rich Paul said that Ingram would not have got what he got with Toronto in the open market. Our desperate front office decided to overpay without assessing the open market. Now Ingram's some how getting $40m a season. We should boycott Rich Paul and the next FO has to stop the overpay. Focus on getting young where we hold the RFA card, not this trade and pay model Masai loves.

Yea not assessing the open market turned out to work against them. But that's in hindsight. The market in general was pretty tepid this offseason. Hard to predict that. We were being told all year going to be fireworks lol.

Bit of a misstep, not in acquiring him or the thought process, the misstep was not waiting to see what the market was going to be. There's some risk in that but you'd have been able to beat out whatever interest there would have been or whatever number another team would have thrown at him, clearly, at a lower number than what he's been signed to.

Its not an awful contract or anything, but it definitely could have been a little more team friendly if we played it out.

I don't think its too big an error though. We'll live.

I still im general believe that trades are the new free agency. A market like Toronto HAS to utilize that.



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[mademan]

Raps have been acting desperate for years. The lack of patience from Masai post title is pretty mind boggling. A title gives you lee way, and he couldve spent the following 4 years developing and building a team (after the title defense) instead of constantly trying to win with poor fitting and relatively low talent veteran cores.

[PushDaRock]

The people ripping the FO for "overpaying" Ingram before Free Agency are the same people blaming the FO for not being able to foresee Houston throwing a max offer at FVV and losing him for nothing.

[Tor_Raps]

We wouldn't have had the contracts to get Ingram if we waited until free agency. Just be happy we got a potential allstar for a projected late 1st rounder at that time.

Now it sucks a bit because that 1st rounder could becoming amazing with the Pacers not having Halliburton/Turner for next season lol.

[dkb964]

IQ/RJ/BI/Barnes/Jak and a young hungry bench could finish in the top 6 in a weak and beat up East. The question is why does it seem like nobody wants to trade for RJ after him coming off of his best season? The Raptors can not afford to give him a new deal. If Bobby can flip him before the deadline for something of value that would be ideal. Eventually if they do not trade him they will most likely just have to lose him for nothing like FVV. That is going to happen when you are paying BI/IQ 70M a year combined.

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

We wouldn't have had the contracts to get Ingram if we waited until free agency. Just be happy we got a potential allstar for a projected late 1st rounder at that time.

Now it sucks a bit because that 1st rounder could becoming amazing with the Pacers not having Halliburton/Turner for next season lol.

Post Masai, is he here? Do we even try to pay him 40M. Probably not.

Not to mention we now have to trade one of RJ or IQ, Less minutes for Grady. etc.

[PushDaRock]

This isn't complicated...lol.

But I guess some people think it would be good business to trade for BI...then offer him 20 million because team had no money in UFA.

That will lead to great relationships with agents and other players seeing that.

1. A lot of numbers exist between $20M and $120M
2. These "great relationships" have led to nothing but overpriced contracts for so-so players, so why does it matter?

You realize the deal was hammered out before the trade happened right? The number was agreed to and the Raptors moved forward. Ingram can easily nix the trade by saying "I won't re-sign".

Also this, given how quickly the extension got done we can safely assume the framework of the extension was decided on before the trade happened.

If we weren't going to extend him at the number we did, it's doubtful Rich Paul would have let him come here.

[PushDaRock]

We wouldn't have had the contracts to get Ingram if we waited until free agency. Just be happy we got a potential allstar for a projected late 1st rounder at that time.

Now it sucks a bit because that 1st rounder could becoming amazing with the Pacers not having Halliburton/Turner for next season lol.

Post Masai, is he here? Do we even try to pay him 40M. Probably not.

Not to mention we now have to trade one of RJ or IQ, Less minutes for Grady. etc.

You can think it's an overpay but BI is the most accomplished and talented offensive player on this roster by a long shot.

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

We wouldn't have had the contracts to get Ingram if we waited until free agency. Just be happy we got a potential allstar for a projected late 1st rounder at that time.

Now it sucks a bit because that 1st rounder could becoming amazing with the Pacers not having Halliburton/Turner for next season lol.

Post Masai, is he here? Do we even try to pay him 40M. Probably not.

Not to mention we now have to trade one of RJ or IQ, Less minutes for Grady. etc.

You can think it's an overpay but BI is the most accomplished and talented offensive player on this roster by a long shot.

Sure, so it's his team now? The problem is how much of the offense.

[PushDaRock]

Post Masai, is he here? Do we even try to pay him 40M. Probably not.

Not to mention we now have to trade one of RJ or IQ, Less minutes for Grady. etc.

You can think it's an overpay but BI is the most accomplished and talented offensive player on this roster by a long shot.

Sure, so it's his team now?

He's our #1 option

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

You can think it's an overpay but BI is the most accomplished and talented offensive player on this roster by a long shot.

Sure, so it's his team now?

He's our #1 option

That's like saying the Titanic is the only boat, unfortunately.

[PushDaRock]

Sure, so it's his team now?

He's our #1 option

That's like saying the Titanic is the only boat, unfortunately.

I'm sure it wouldn't be difficult to find a better #1 option at all of course.

[Boogie!]

We wouldn't have had the contracts to get Ingram if we waited until free agency. Just be happy we got a potential allstar for a projected late 1st rounder at that time.

Now it sucks a bit because that 1st rounder could becoming amazing with the Pacers not having Halliburton/Turner for next season lol.

Post Masai, is he here? Do we even try to pay him 40M. Probably not.

Not to mention we now have to trade one of RJ or IQ, Less minutes for Grady. etc.

why are people so obsessed with gradey minutes. The guy hasn’t shown enough to desperately find ways to get him minutes. He’s not above Rj or ochai on the depth chart and is fighting Jakobe for rotation minutes.