RealGM 2025 Greatest Peaks Project #4 — 1994 Hakeem Olajuwon

[Elpolo_14]

3. Shaq 2001 (2000)
This is the point where it starts to get a lot hazier for me. Seriously considered KG, Magic and Jokic here. Ultimately, I'm going with what is likely the most conventional pick as I do think Shaq would in some ways be even more unstoppable today and was also definitely a good enough passer to punish defenses for doubling. I have serious questions about his defense, but not to the point where I would pick Jokic over him.

For you What was the Final straw line to choose between Shaq 2001 and Shaq 2000?

[Elpolo_14]

Not sure about vote #3 yet. We'll see who gets traction.

You did choose your 3rd pick yet since the last thread LMAO. Who gonna have enough traction for you to have them on the podium.

[One_and_Done]

Not sure about vote #3 yet. We'll see who gets traction.

You did choose your 3rd pick yet since the last thread LMAO. Who gonna have enough traction for you to have them on the podium.

Because I'm not sure who my #3 will be. There are a bunch of guys I'm interested in soonish, like Kawhi, Jokic, Giannis, etc, but if nobody is voting for them it's kind of pointless to vote for them. Hakeem might be who I go with, but I'm open to hearing other arguments.

For me the top 2 are in their own tier and easy to pick.

[Elpolo_14]

Here's the ballot
3. 1964 Wilt Chamberlain
Could see the argument for him over Duncan or Kareem (mayve shaq but it takes some convincing), but also could see the argument for hakeem over him (maybe steph jokic or kobe with some convincing)

What would be an argument that you're willing to make which is convincing enough to push Kobe Bryant Peak above Wilt?

[Elpolo_14]

Not sure about vote #3 yet. We'll see who gets traction.

You did choose your 3rd pick yet since the last thread LMAO. Who gonna have enough traction for you to have them on the podium.

Because I'm not sure who my #3 will be. There are a bunch of guys I'm interested in soonish, like Kawhi, Jokic, Giannis, etc, but if nobody is voting for them it's kind of pointless to vote for them. Hakeem might be who I go with, but I'm open to hearing other arguments.

For me the top 2 are in their own tier and easy to pick.

Maybe by Choosing like anyone of the 3 dude you mention could open out some conversation and make people more interested to analyze this player to the point they might even put them in this Thread. ( Specifically guys like Giannis / Jokic who got really high motion in term of peak )

[Elpolo_14]

I don't see how Bill Walton is better than Wilt, KG, or Steph peak for peak.

I don't really see it either. Could be due to not enough analyzing ( there not much game to do so tho ) but even by that reasoning I don't have enough argument to convince myself to put Bill Walton in the top 10 peak yet.

What HIGHEST Ranking you can Convince yourself to put Bill Walton?

[f4p]

The stats above, assuming they are right, are potentially misleading because:
1) They don't factor in all the possessions where Shaq is supposed to be guarding Duncan, but he has gotten out of position or lost him, and been burnt, and

How often in your possession by possession tracking of the series did this happen? I have to say I don't remember it happening much. Duncan was exactly Steph zipping around the court to lose shaq.

2) They might not sufficiently factor in help defence supporting Shaq guard Duncan.

Hmm, it wouldn't make much sense to help out on a guy who is being held to about 25% shooting over the two series. Also, if Duncan was shooting 25% instead of passing out of the double, that would seem to be a poor strategic decision. Again, I don't remember from watching games 4 and 5 in 2002 Shaq needing many doubles. Rick fox did do an incredibly stupid double about 17 feet from the basket one time and left someone open right in duncans line of sight but I can only assume Phil Jackson took him out back and shot him because I didn't see it happen again.

In reality Shaq would have fouled out in 2 quarters trying to guard Duncan every play.

I think it was game 5 where it was a YouTube video broadcast in Spanish that did skip the 2nd quarter but the first 3 times Duncan guarded Shaq directly were the 3rd and 4th quarters and he committed a foul on all 3 possessions. I would think, given Shaqs history, that him fouling other people out would be the bigger concern.

[f4p]

I don't see how Bill Walton is better than Wilt, KG, or Steph peak for peak.

I don't really see it either. Could be due to not enough analyzing ( there not much game to do so tho ) but even by that reasoning I don't have enough argument to convince myself to put Bill Walton in the top 10 peak yet.

What HIGHEST Ranking you can Convince yourself to put Bill Walton?

I'm not saying Walton has to be ahead, but how many threads into the project will we be before we get to someone whose peak season COULDN'T have won a title with the 2017 warriors? 20, 30? The end of the project? Could Steph lead a team like Portland to the title?

[Top10alltime]

I don't see how Bill Walton is better than Wilt, KG, or Steph peak for peak.

I don't really see it either. Could be due to not enough analyzing ( there not much game to do so tho ) but even by that reasoning I don't have enough argument to convince myself to put Bill Walton in the top 10 peak yet.

What HIGHEST Ranking you can Convince yourself to put Bill Walton?

I'm not saying Walton has to be ahead, but how many threads into the project will we be before we get to someone whose peak season COULDN'T have won a title with the 2017 warriors? 20, 30? The end of the project? Could Steph lead a team like Portland to the title?

It's not about the title. It's about how much he impacted the Warriors, and how good he was offensively, while still being a + defensively.

Not saying Steph's peak is 17, or even he is above KG. But that season is worthy of consideration in this project.

[f4p]

I don't really see it either. Could be due to not enough analyzing ( there not much game to do so tho ) but even by that reasoning I don't have enough argument to convince myself to put Bill Walton in the top 10 peak yet.

What HIGHEST Ranking you can Convince yourself to put Bill Walton?

I'm not saying Walton has to be ahead, but how many threads into the project will we be before we get to someone whose peak season COULDN'T have won a title with the 2017 warriors? 20, 30? The end of the project? Could Steph lead a team like Portland to the title?

It's not about the title. It's about how much he impacted the Warriors, and how good he was offensively, while still being a + defensively.

Not saying Steph's peak is 17, or even he is above KG. But that season is worthy of consideration in this project.

Sure, it should be considered. In like the late teens.

And really, which season would it be then? 2015 is a good regular season (for a peaks project) but nothing too inspiring in the playoffs and arguably a bunch of injuries away from losing in the finals. He arguably let delly keep him from winning FMVP.

2016 is just way too terrible a playoffs to seriously consider. 2018 is almost worse, has missed playoff games, clearly isn't the best on the team in the playoffs (at least there's an argument for 2017), and needs another opponent injury. 2019 is a horrendous second round in what was arguably going to be their biggest series against his playoff kryptonite CP3, only saved by KD averaging 35 PPG for the first 5 games. After a down regular season. And 2022 is basically a great finals at the end of a very meh regular season and 3 meh series to start the playoffs.

And 2017 is, like I said, just the game on easy mode and pretending that the great playoffs performance is just a coincidence that it happened in the year it was by far the easiest and low pressure.

I mean it all still adds up to a great top 15ish career but I'm not really sure where the "game 1 through the finals" real outstanding peak is.

[Top10alltime]

I don't see how Bill Walton is better than Wilt, KG, or Steph peak for peak.

I don't really see it either. Could be due to not enough analyzing ( there not much game to do so tho ) but even by that reasoning I don't have enough argument to convince myself to put Bill Walton in the top 10 peak yet.

What HIGHEST Ranking you can Convince yourself to put Bill Walton?

Yea, I don't see it. His defense isn't enough to wipe offensive gaps, and even with the logic for defense Wilt is at LEAST on same level of defense or a bit higher than Walton.

Highest ranking? Probably 13, taking 2022-23 Embiid's spot.

[Top10alltime]

I'm not saying Walton has to be ahead, but how many threads into the project will we be before we get to someone whose peak season COULDN'T have won a title with the 2017 warriors? 20, 30? The end of the project? Could Steph lead a team like Portland to the title?

It's not about the title. It's about how much he impacted the Warriors, and how good he was offensively, while still being a + defensively.

Not saying Steph's peak is 17, or even he is above KG. But that season is worthy of consideration in this project.

Sure, it should be considered. In like the late teens.

And really, which season would it be then? 2015 is a good regular season (for a peaks project) but nothing too inspiring in the playoffs and arguably a bunch of injuries away from losing in the finals. He arguably let delly keep him from winning FMVP.

2016 is just way too terrible a playoffs to seriously consider. 2018 is almost worse, has missed playoff games, clearly isn't the best on the team in the playoffs (at least there's an argument for 2017), and needs another opponent injury. 2019 is a horrendous second round in what was arguably going to be their biggest series against his playoff kryptonite CP3, only saved by KD averaging 35 PPG for the first 5 games. After a down regular season. And 2022 is basically a great finals at the end of a very meh regular season and 3 meh series to start the playoffs.

And 2017 is, like I said, just the game on easy mode and pretending that the great playoffs performance is just a coincidence that it happened in the year it was by far the easiest and low pressure.

I mean it all still adds up to a great top 15ish career but I'm not really sure where the "game 1 through the finals" real outstanding peak is.

It doesn't have to be. It could be a season you were injured and still have the rest of your games back up your case. I think 16 and 17 are the only real seasons with a case for Steph's peak. 19 and 21 is closer, but I don't see it

[One_and_Done]

The stats above, assuming they are right, are potentially misleading because:
1) They don't factor in all the possessions where Shaq is supposed to be guarding Duncan, but he has gotten out of position or lost him, and been burnt, and

How often in your possession by possession tracking of the series did this happen? I have to say I don't remember it happening much. Duncan was exactly Steph zipping around the court to lose shaq.

2) They might not sufficiently factor in help defence supporting Shaq guard Duncan.

Hmm, it wouldn't make much sense to help out on a guy who is being held to about 25% shooting over the two series. Also, if Duncan was shooting 25% instead of passing out of the double, that would seem to be a poor strategic decision. Again, I don't remember from watching games 4 and 5 in 2002 Shaq needing many doubles. Rick fox did do an incredibly stupid double about 17 feet from the basket one time and left someone open right in duncans line of sight but I can only assume Phil Jackson took him out back and shot him because I didn't see it happen again.

In reality Shaq would have fouled out in 2 quarters trying to guard Duncan every play.

I think it was game 5 where it was a YouTube video broadcast in Spanish that did skip the 2nd quarter but the first 3 times Duncan guarded Shaq directly were the 3rd and 4th quarters and he committed a foul on all 3 possessions. I would think, given Shaqs history, that him fouling other people out would be the bigger concern.

I remember Shaq being out of position on D alot. Also maybe Duncan isn't shooting as well because of that help.

[ceoofkobefans]

Here's the ballot
3. 1964 Wilt Chamberlain
Could see the argument for him over Duncan or Kareem (mayve shaq but it takes some convincing), but also could see the argument for hakeem over him (maybe steph jokic or kobe with some convincing)

What would be an argument that you're willing to make which is convincing enough to push Kobe Bryant Peak above Wilt?

it would revolve around being high on kobe's defense and being low on wilt's offense. Basically still thinking kobe is an *elite defender* in 08 (like clear first team defense) i have him more as just very good/high quality and being very low on wilt's scoring (essentially thinking he's an adrian dantley case where although he's efficiently scoring at a very high rate his scoring isn't actually that impactful) and giving him more blame for the warriors offense not being good than I do

[70sFan]

These are Shaq numbers against Duncan coverage:

Game 1: 4/11 FG, 3/4 FT, 1 ast, 1 tov
Game 2: 5/9 FG, 3/6 FT, 3 ast, 1 tov
Game 3: 5/8 FG, 2/2 FT, 1 ast, 0 tov
Game 4: 2/3 FG, 0/0 FT, 1 ast, 0 tov
Game 5: 3/8 FG, 4/6 FT, 0 ast, 1 tov

Overall: 10 ppg on 48.7 FG%, 66.7 FT% and 53.3 TS%, 1.2 apg and 0.6 tov

Note that game 4 is the one when Duncan defended Shaq the least, at least based on DFG (and my memory).

I also have Duncan stats vs Shaq and 2003 stats as well, but they are on my harddrive and I am out of home for the rest of July outside of weekends. If anyone is interested in such numbers, I could try to share them this weekend.

Apologies for the late response, I took my hard drive with me during the weekend, so now I can provide the numbers for the 2002 and 2003 WCSF series.

2002 WCSF Duncan against Shaq

Game 1: 3/6 FG, 0/0 FT, 0 ast, 0 tov
Game 2: 1/3 FG, 0/0 FT, 0 ast, 1 tov
Game 3: 0/0 FG, 0/0 FT, 0 ast, 0 tov
Game 4: 0/2 FG, 5/6 FT, 2 ast, 1 tov
Game 5: 3/12 FG, 4/4 FT, 4 ast, 3 tov

Overall: 4.6 ppg on 30.4 FG%, 90.0 FT% and 42.0 TS%, 1.2 apg and 1.0 tov

2002 WCSF Shaq against Duncan

Game 1: 4/11 FG, 3/4 FT, 1 ast, 1 tov
Game 2: 5/9 FG, 3/6 FT, 3 ast, 1 tov
Game 3: 5/8 FG, 2/2 FT, 1 ast, 0 tov
Game 4: 2/3 FG, 0/0 FT, 1 ast, 0 tov
Game 5: 3/8 FG, 4/6 FT, 0 ast, 1 tov

Overall: 10.0 ppg on 48.7 FG%, 66.7 FT% and 53.3 TS%, 1.2 apg and 0.6 tov

Unfortunately, I don't have the data for G2 of 2003 WCSF, I just didn't have the copy when I did my tracking work. I also didn't count assists and turnovers, I could do that because I have my notes but I just don't have enough time for that.

2003 WCSF Duncan against Shaq

Game 1: 0/4 FG, 2/2 FT
Game 3: 0/2 FG, 0/0 FT
Game 4: 0/1 FG, 3/4 FT
Game 5: 4/8 FG, 3/4 FT
Game 6: 0/5 FG, 0/0 FT

Overall: 3.2 ppg on 20.0 FG%, 70.0 FT% and 32.8 TS%

2003 WCSF Shaq against Duncan

Game 1: 5/6 FG, 0/1 FT
Game 3: 1/3 FG, 0/0 FT
Game 4: 1/3 FG, 2/3 FT
Game 5: 0/0 FG, 0/0 FT
Game 6: 1/3 FG, 0/0 FT

Overall: 3.6 ppg on 53.3 FG%, 50.0 FT% and 53.7 TS%

As you can see, Duncan defended Shaq significantly less in 2003. Shaq also guarded Duncan less than the year before.
The data shows that Duncan struggled a lot against Shaq, but it wasn't common for the Lakers to put O'Neal on Timmy. Shaq also didn't have his best time against Duncan.

damn, i didn't realize shaq wrecked duncan on defense so hard in both 2002 and 2003. i mean i knew 2002. maybe my memory from 2003 is of game 5 when duncan was 4/8 or something because 20% is ugly. and i realize foul trouble is a concern but it's kind of weird that they both guarded each other so little, especially with how effective shaq was and the fact the lakers lost the 2003 series so it's not like it was just strategically holding back (i.e. break glass in case of emergency) like you could argue in 2002.

any chance you have 2001 numbers?

i think someone has posted 1995 finals numbers before but i don't know who. i know there were lots of doubles but it feels like hakeem and shaq were guarding each other for a lot more than like 4 shots per game like shaq and duncan.

I don't have 2001 numbers unfortunately.

These are the numbers from Djoker on 1995 finals:

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2370986

Hakeem averaged 10 ppg on 44 TS% on Shaq coverages. They definitely guarded each other more than Duncan vs Shaq in 2003 when they barely matched up. 2002 is closer because Duncan was arguably the primary defender on Shaq. O'Neal didn't guard Duncan much either, but he had this notable G5 shutdown performance.

[70sFan]

The stats above, assuming they are right, are potentially misleading because:
1) They don't factor in all the possessions where Shaq is supposed to be guarding Duncan, but he has gotten out of position or lost him, and been burnt, and
2) They might not sufficiently factor in help defence supporting Shaq guard Duncan.

If Shaq was a Duncan stopper, Duncan wouldn't have been going off so much in say 99 or 03. But when you limit the sample to the times Shaq was in position under the post to contest, possibly with help, then it looks alot better. In reality Shaq would have fouled out in 2 quarters trying to guard Duncan every play.

Ad. 1. I do factor such possessions, because I look at the plays when Shaq was assigned to defend Duncan and didn't get switched off during the play. For example, I included one transition alley-oop for Duncan when he outhustled Shaq. I also include all the open midrange shots he got from Shaq being lazy at contesting them (which actually worked for O'Neal).

As far as help goes, it goes both ways as Shaq also faced plenty of help defense against Duncan. Putting Shaq on Duncan actually helped the Lakers play more relaxed defense on him, he faced the most doubles and help d while being guarded by Harry etc.

Shaq didn't defend Duncan much in 2003 series (or 1999 for that matter). Duncan going off in 2003 doesn't have much to do with Shaq's defense. You can argue that O'Neal would indeed face foul trouble issues, but I don't really buy that, at least not on consistent basis. I think it was mostly Shaq's conditioning that prevented Phill to put him on Timmy more often.

Nobody called Shaq a Duncan stopper, but you shouldn't be surprised that O'Neal gave him a hell. Duncan relied on physical advantages a lot, he didn't have many vs Shaw and his jumpshot wasn't reliable enough to carry him for long stretches.

Of course if you believe I did it wrongly or that I do it against Duncan's case, you can do your own tracking. You can provide 1999 or 2004 numbers for example, I would definitely enjoy that!

[70sFan]

Here's the ballot
3. 1964 Wilt Chamberlain
Could see the argument for him over Duncan or Kareem (mayve shaq but it takes some convincing), but also could see the argument for hakeem over him (maybe steph jokic or kobe with some convincing)

What would be an argument that you're willing to make which is convincing enough to push Kobe Bryant Peak above Wilt?

it would revolve around being high on kobe's defense and being low on wilt's offense. Basically still thinking kobe is an *elite defender* in 08 (like clear first team defense) i have him more as just very good/high quality and being very low on wilt's scoring (essentially thinking he's an adrian dantley case where although he's efficiently scoring at a very high rate his scoring isn't actually that impactful) and giving him more blame for the warriors offense not being good than I do

Can we please stop using Dantley in such a bad manner? There are plenty of volume scorers who were less successful than Dantley throughout the history of the NBA...

[70sFan]

I don't see how Bill Walton is better than Wilt, KG, or Steph peak for peak.

I don't really see it either. Could be due to not enough analyzing ( there not much game to do so tho ) but even by that reasoning I don't have enough argument to convince myself to put Bill Walton in the top 10 peak yet.

What HIGHEST Ranking you can Convince yourself to put Bill Walton?

Yea, I don't see it. His defense isn't enough to wipe offensive gaps, and even with the logic for defense Wilt is at LEAST on same level of defense or a bit higher than Walton.

Highest ranking? Probably 13, taking 2022-23 Embiid's spot.

I think you can very well argue that Walton is that good on defense. I haven't done any tracking on him, but just from watching games he seems to be extremely good defensively. I wouldn't put many (if any) defenders clearly above peak Walton.

[Elpolo_14]

I don't see how Bill Walton is better than Wilt, KG, or Steph peak for peak.

I don't really see it either. Could be due to not enough analyzing ( there not much game to do so tho ) but even by that reasoning I don't have enough argument to convince myself to put Bill Walton in the top 10 peak yet.

What HIGHEST Ranking you can Convince yourself to put Bill Walton?

I'm not saying Walton has to be ahead, but how many threads into the project will we be before we get to someone whose peak season COULDN'T have won a title with the 2017 warriors? 20, 30? The end of the project? Could Steph lead a team like Portland to the title?

To answer your question. I would certainly say among the top 30 Peak ( in my list ) ALL OF them would have won with the 2017 GSW team.

Going below that is starting to undermine Curry impact on the GSW system and Offense they were using to maximize the team Ceilling

[Joao Saraiva]

Vote 1: Hakeem Olajuwon (1993-1994)
I think we're talking about the GOAT peak here. He was the driving force of Houston's offense, operating very well in the post to score, providing range (spacing) and while he wasn't a great passer for his entire career I beleive Hakeem was very good in that regard during that season. Even tough I'd still take Shaq or MJ over him on offense I don't see a big gap there, at least one that justifies compensating for his defensive effforts.

The rim protection he provided was legendary. The man to man defense was tremendous, but on top of that Hakeem covered a ton of ground and could definitely switch and defend faster players. So we're getting the best of both worlds - the rim protection at Duncan's level (I might add that he was even better) and covering ground like Kevin Garnett.

I think Hakeem is by far the best defender I've ever seen (tough for obvious reasons I didn't see that much of Bill Russell).

That season ended up being the perfect Hakeem season, and overall I think he was the best player I've ever seen in a 1 year spam.


Vote 2: Shaq 1999-2000
Just pure dominance. On offense it's hard to argue anyone against 00 Shaq or even 01 Shaq.

Teams literally had 2 or 3 spots in their roster filled with big guys just to foul Shaq.

You couldn't let him get the ball deep. And if you fronted him he could definitely complete the alley oop.

While on defense Shaq didn't cover a ton of ground (in the finals against Indy that was exploited pretty well), he definitely was a good rim protector and a good man to man defender for the entire season. That alone might make him less portable for today's game but... he played in 00. So he and the Lakers weren't obviously worried about that at all.

Even when facing guys like Duncan/Robinson, Karl Malone, Davis, Mutombo he looked on a completely different level strenght wise.

Vote 3: Wilt Chamberlain 1961-1962
It's the legendary season of the 50 PPG and 25 RPG (even a bit more). It's the legandary season of the 48 MPG. It shows Wilt was out of this world, and we might discuss impact and other things but I'm not gonna fault Wilt for coaches not using him properly.
Wilt is one of a kind and in that year he lead the league in a lot of things, and even in the playoffs he did well and took Boston to 7 games, in a series he scored 40+ with mroe than 30 rebounds twice against the GOAT offensive force.
Lost by 2 in game 7... oh well.

Over shooting? Maybe. Over played? Certainly. But still, getting it done game after game even with all that is still out of this world.

My reasoning for not voting him higher? Lack of film on that season, haven't seen much, only occasional games from Wilt on YT.

I'm still impressed tough.