Elvin Hayes all-time

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Re: Elvin Hayes all-time 

Post#21 » by penbeast0 » Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:12 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
feyki wrote:
mischievous wrote:Nothing really suggests that he's anywhere near Davis offensively.


Why?


Around 40-45, in the same tier with Kidd/Unseld/Payton/Thurmond.


I'd love to have any of those guys play a similar role today they played back then.

Hayes could not. He frankly shouldn't have played that way back then. Add in his attitude and I don't know if I'd even draft him.


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Heck, Thurmond shouldn't have played the way he did back then either; good comp with Hayes and for career and impact, I'd take Hayes. And, yeah I'd take the chance on him despite everything though maybe not as high as he might expect for his numbers; that's like saying you wouldn't even draft Cousins.
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Re: Elvin Hayes all-time 

Post#22 » by JordansBulls » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:55 am

ThaRegul8r wrote:I don't know about ranking since I don't have an all-time list, but one thing I do know (a sentiment I've expressed before in the past) is that I don't want him on my team.

What if your current team doesn't have a guy as good?
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Re: Elvin Hayes all-time 

Post#23 » by Doctor MJ » Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:09 am

feyki wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
feyki wrote:
Why?


Around 40-45, in the same tier with Kidd/Unseld/Payton/Thurmond.


I'd love to have any of those guys play a similar role today they played back then.

Hayes could not. He frankly shouldn't have played that way back then. Add in his attitude and I don't know if I'd even draft him.


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I'd rank them based on what they did in their era. Rest are meaningless to me. Of course, talking about their skills or athleticism level and comparing todays ballers fine. But older players don't need being a fit any era, like Shaq doesn't need playing in the 60's to be an ATG.


I'm just trying to get clear the scale of the problem to others.

It's not an era issue in any sense other than people in his era not being able to quantitatively justify what bugged them about Hayes.


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Re: Elvin Hayes all-time 

Post#24 » by Clyde Frazier » Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:52 am

It definitely took some research to untangle hayes' career. Here's what I came up with in my post on him for our top 100 project:

Vote for #58 - Elvin Hayes

- 16 year career
- 6x all NBA (3 1st, 3 2nd)
- 2x all defensive 2nd team
- 2 top 3 and 4 top 10 MVP finishes
- 1x NBA champion

Hayes had unbelievable durability: in his 16 seasons in the league, he played in 80+ games in every season, missing a total of 9 games.

REG SEASON 69-79
23.7 PPG, 14.5 RPG, 2 APG, 1 SPG, 2.5 BPG, 45% FG, 67% FT, 49% TS, .130 WS/48

PLAYOFFS 69-79
23.2 PPG, 13.1 RPG, 1.9 APG, 1.2 SPG, 2.6 BPG, 47% FG, 65.3% FT, 50.6% TS, .143 WS/48

While he wasn't a very efficient scorer in his prime, he wasn't abysmal, either. From 69-79, his TS% of 49% was slightly below the league avg of 50.6% during that span. He also shot better in the playoffs at a 50.6% TS clip. I will still take a player's ability to score at ~average efficiency over a player who can't score at all. He used his above average athleticism on both ends of the floor to his advantage, and helped the bullets to 3 finals runs including a championship in 78.

He also had a good case for finals MVP in 78. Per writer Dave Heeren:

Remember the Elvin Hayes incident? During the 1978 playoffs, the Championship series between Washington and Seattle reached the seventh game. Rick Barry, whose Golden State team had not qualified for the playoffs that year, was announcing that game and doing his usual candid job. He pointed out that one of the referees had a short temper and that he was especially apt to make hasty foul calls against Hayes, whom he did not like because Hayes did a lot of complaining about his calls. Hayes, who had been the series' outstanding player to that point, picked up his fourth foul during the third quarter and argued before going to the bench. The same official whistled him for his fifth and sixth fouls in quick succession after he reentered the game early in the fourth quarter. Replays showed that Hayes had not committed either of the fouls. On one of them there had been no physical contact at all.

But Hayes was out of the game, and a vindictive referee could have deprived Washington of a league championship becaus the Bullets were ahead by 8 or 10 points when Hayes went out. Paced by Bob Dandridge, the Bullets did hold on to win. But Hayes was deprived of an award he wanted and deserved. Since he had not played during the closing minutes of the championship game, the championship series MVP trophy was given to Wes Unseld. Unseld, then in the twilight of his career, had produced little offense for the Bullets and had been victimized by Seattle center Marvin Webster for 30 points, or a basket more or less, in the final game.


There's talk about attitude problems with hayes, but that largely seemed to be off the court-related, and that doesn't matter to me unless it affects on the court performance.

However, once he came the Bullets, he instantly seemed to mesh with the team, both on and off the court. Combining with Wes Unseld to anchor a potent double post offense that dominated on the boards, Hayes' arrival allowed coach Gene Shue to play an up-tempo, fast breaking three guard lineup that improved from 38 to 52 wins in just one year. The team never looked back and was a legitimate juggernaut for the rest of the 1970s.


http://www.bulletsforever.com/2012/8/22/3258406/elvin-hayes-jack-marin-trade-washington-bullets

When hayes went to the bullets, he cut his shot attempts down to 18.3 per game from 75-79 vs. 69-74 where he took 23.4 per game. He adapted his game and became a major factor in helping them win the championship. His game did change for the better in washington. I wouldn’t call it lucky for hayes to end up next to unseld on the front line, because if he really was that rigid, it wouldn’t have worked out. It’s not uncommon for teams to make sense conceptually, but end up falling short. I think it’s clear that they mutually benefited from each other’s skill sets.

For those who pay attention to it, he ranked 56th in RPOY shares.

Looking at lanier, the divide for me is clearly durability. Lanier played in at least 76 games per season his first 5 seasons, yet missed nearly 20 games per season over the next 6. A little too glaring when looking at hayes the ironman. I’m certainly impressed with his overall production, though during his prime.


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Re: Elvin Hayes all-time 

Post#25 » by ThaRegul8r » Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:00 am

JordansBulls wrote:
ThaRegul8r wrote:I don't know about ranking since I don't have an all-time list, but one thing I do know (a sentiment I've expressed before in the past) is that I don't want him on my team.

What if your current team doesn't have a guy as good?


"I don't want him on my team" is pretty unambiguous. I added no qualifiers to my statement.
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Re: Elvin Hayes all-time 

Post#26 » by asindc » Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:48 pm

PockyCandy wrote:
Rich Michmond wrote:
PockyCandy wrote:
But Hayes? Nope, I've got no clue as to what he looks like or how he played. Was he a jumpshooter a la Bob Mcadoo, or was he more of a post player like Artis Gilmore? I have absolutely no idea at all. And when it comes to his peers, I've never heard anyone sing his praises like they sing Maravich's, Tiny Archibald's, and guys like that. So he must've not been too liked by players of that era either?


Take Jermaine O'Neal and extend his prime to about twelve seasons - that's roughly who Hayes was as a player. Good rebounder and shotblocker, very good defender overall. On offense, he was a high volume scorer but with unimpressive efficiency, plus Hayes played a plethora of minutes so his per36 output is not all that amazing. Kind of a black hole, too. Both had a tendency to trust their turnaround jumpers too much.

As for his reputation, well...

Bill Fitch to Ralph Sampson wrote:You stay away from that no-good, ***** prick

Alex Hannum wrote:the most despicable person I've ever met in sports


I"m going to show my age (again) by telling you that I never saw Jermaine O'neal's prime. But I did see diminished O'neal, so if I take that and put it on steroids, then I can see what you mean.

Also, Bill fitch really disliked Hayes :o


A lot of people really disliked Hayes. Among all his former teammates here in DC, none of them speak in admirable terms about him. The best any of them will say is that he was a tough guy to deal with.
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Re: Elvin Hayes all-time 

Post#27 » by feyki » Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:25 pm

Lots of players also disliked(Hayes and Dandridge were two of them) Unseld, who was(still it is) one of the best team players ever.

Of course, Hayes as a ball dominator, had much more hate by players to his game. We all know how some people hate game of Kobe/Lebron/Jordan.
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Re: Elvin Hayes all-time 

Post#28 » by Bwelc679 » Tue Jul 22, 2025 12:19 pm

Goudelock wrote:


I have been doing some research on "The Big E" and came across this 8 year old post and decided to bump it and see if anyone else has anything to add.

First, in regards to your video and that Washington vs Golden State series in general, Id love to know how that series was viewed. If Elvin was considered the best player on WAS (unless it was still Wes) then it's quite interesting that each teams best player in a finals series were two of (possibly THE)most hated players in the league. Who was hated more between Rick and Elvin? Does anyone have any insight into this or if it was jokes about at the time?

Next, does anyone have any different modern comps for Hayes? I thought the peak Jermaine Oneal comp was interesting and lines up statistically. Hayes was obviously the better rebounder but blocks aside, I have been under the impression that Jermaine was a better overall defender. I actually think JO was an excellent man and team defender. Was Hayes also a good help side guy? The best modern comp I could come up with is someone who isn't anywhere near the talent or output of Big E but stylistically I think DeAndre Ayton is an interesting comp. Ayton is way too comfortable with his turnaround and jump shot in general. He's a very good shooter for his size but the frustration comes from him not using his size and athletic ability to get shots at the rim more frequently. Ayton showed flashes of being a great defensive player during the PHX finals run but seemingly stopped progressing whatsoever and now his effort has become an issue. Not to say that Elvin had these same issues but the way they play offense around the basket and the difficulty of being their teammates (Ayton also famously frustrates anyone he plays with) were enough to make me think of him. Similar to Big E, Ayton was a dominant college player leading him to be the number one pick in the draft.

I don't care so much about ranking like OP asked because I think ranking by positions is a complete waste of time considering how different the game has been across eras. Id say skillsets would be a better way to rank but regardless, what do people think Hayes would look like in the modern era?

Imagine that Elvin is given his youth back and is in his 23 year old body with all the muscle memory and memories of his game fresh as if he played them yesterday. Then imagine he's given 6 months of training with the best trainers(Drew Hanlen and Tim Grover)and best shooting coaches. He plays with a G league team for a couple months to learn the spacing and basics of drop coverage and modern defensive rotations as well as basic offensive sets before he's dropped into the league. How many wins would he add (if any) to the Wizards? Would he be right after Joker and Giannis for the best big in the league or is he a tier below KAT and AD?
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Re: Elvin Hayes all-time 

Post#29 » by penbeast0 » Tue Jul 22, 2025 2:10 pm

Elvin was not generally a popular player with fans but as an old Bullets fan, I can tell you that in 75, there was a lot of talk about the "new E" and how dedicated he was that year . . . until after the finals when people got nasty about him again.

I would guess the same thing happened in SF with Barry except he won and people will forgive a lot to a winner. Barry then proceeded to start poisoning the well again with interviews calling his teammates "my supporting cast" and talking about how he had to win that title virtually alone. To some degree that was an impressive carry job in terms of his scoring but that team was very good defensively as well and that wasn't the half of the court where Barry focused his energy.

Two of the more polarizing players with personalities that put off a lot of teammates and coaches.
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Re: Elvin Hayes all-time 

Post#30 » by Cavsfansince84 » Tue Jul 22, 2025 5:39 pm

The only thing I'll add is that in the last top 100 project he got in at 67(had to look it up but that's about what I guessed) and I thought that was a pretty good spot for him. I think he's basically Karl Malone with less of an inside game and less longevity. Also, while its fair to ding his raw output based on his mpg when a guy is good on defense having him on the floor that much is a big plus.
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Re: Elvin Hayes all-time 

Post#31 » by Warspite » Tue Jul 22, 2025 7:03 pm

I recall looking in a book at the all time points leaders and his name was 4th on the list. KAJ, Wilt, Moses and Hayes. Now he is #13.
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Re: Elvin Hayes all-time 

Post#32 » by kcktiny » Tue Jul 22, 2025 9:19 pm

he was a powerful rebounding force who played good defense


Good rebounder and shotblocker, very good defender overall


a good man defender


He's very impactful defender


Elite defender


I also think his defensive impact was more than his offensive one


I have been under the impression that Jermaine was a better overall defender


From 1973-74 to 1980-81 (8 seasons), the Capital/Washington Bullets were the best defensive team in the league at just 98.1 pts/100poss allowed, allowed the 2nd lowest opponent 2pt FG% (46.0%) over all that time, had the 3rd best defensive rebounding percentage (70.0%).

During that time Hayes alone played 1/6 of the team's total minutes played, accounted for over 1/4 of their total defensive rebounds, and close to 1/2 of their blocked shots (also scored 1/5 of the team's total points scored).

I don't think there is any question he was an elite defender during the 70s.

And during the 70s (1969-70 to 1978-79) Hayes:

- scored 18,922 points, no other PF scored even 13,000
- attempted 5495 FTs, no other PF attempted even 3700
- blocked 1198 shots, no other PF blocked even 700
- grabbed 11565 rebounds, no other PF grabbed even 9000

You can complain about his shooting not being the best, but his scoring combined his very good rebounding and elite defense I believe makes him the top PF of the 70s.
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Re: Elvin Hayes all-time 

Post#33 » by Warspite » Wed Jul 23, 2025 4:27 am

kcktiny wrote:
he was a powerful rebounding force who played good defense


Good rebounder and shotblocker, very good defender overall


a good man defender


He's very impactful defender


Elite defender


I also think his defensive impact was more than his offensive one


I have been under the impression that Jermaine was a better overall defender


From 1973-74 to 1980-81 (8 seasons), the Capital/Washington Bullets were the best defensive team in the league at just 98.1 pts/100poss allowed, allowed the 2nd lowest opponent 2pt FG% (46.0%) over all that time, had the 3rd best defensive rebounding percentage (70.0%).

During that time Hayes alone played 1/6 of the team's total minutes played, accounted for over 1/4 of their total defensive rebounds, and close to 1/2 of their blocked shots (also scored 1/5 of the team's total points scored).

I don't think there is any question he was an elite defender during the 70s.

And during the 70s (1969-70 to 1978-79) Hayes:

- scored 18,922 points, no other PF scored even 13,000
- attempted 5495 FTs, no other PF attempted even 3700
- blocked 1198 shots, no other PF blocked even 700
- grabbed 11565 rebounds, no other PF grabbed even 9000

You can complain about his shooting not being the best, but his scoring combined his very good rebounding and elite defense I believe makes him the top PF of the 70s.


He was most likely the GOAT PF when he retired.
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Re: Elvin Hayes all-time 

Post#34 » by 70sFan » Wed Jul 23, 2025 5:48 am

Warspite wrote:
kcktiny wrote:
he was a powerful rebounding force who played good defense


Good rebounder and shotblocker, very good defender overall


a good man defender


He's very impactful defender


Elite defender


I also think his defensive impact was more than his offensive one


I have been under the impression that Jermaine was a better overall defender


From 1973-74 to 1980-81 (8 seasons), the Capital/Washington Bullets were the best defensive team in the league at just 98.1 pts/100poss allowed, allowed the 2nd lowest opponent 2pt FG% (46.0%) over all that time, had the 3rd best defensive rebounding percentage (70.0%).

During that time Hayes alone played 1/6 of the team's total minutes played, accounted for over 1/4 of their total defensive rebounds, and close to 1/2 of their blocked shots (also scored 1/5 of the team's total points scored).

I don't think there is any question he was an elite defender during the 70s.

And during the 70s (1969-70 to 1978-79) Hayes:

- scored 18,922 points, no other PF scored even 13,000
- attempted 5495 FTs, no other PF attempted even 3700
- blocked 1198 shots, no other PF blocked even 700
- grabbed 11565 rebounds, no other PF grabbed even 9000

You can complain about his shooting not being the best, but his scoring combined his very good rebounding and elite defense I believe makes him the top PF of the 70s.


He was most likely the GOAT PF when he retired.

No, that was Pettit.
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Re: Elvin Hayes all-time 

Post#35 » by penbeast0 » Wed Jul 23, 2025 1:27 pm

feyki wrote:Lots of players also disliked(Hayes and Dandridge were two of them) Unseld, who was(still it is) one of the best team players ever.

Of course, Hayes as a ball dominator, had much more hate by players to his game. We all know how some people hate game of Kobe/Lebron/Jordan.


LIved and breathed Bullets during this period and never heard of any teammate disliking Unseld. (Referees and maybe an opponents who didn't like the really brutal screens he set, but never even heard that.) Do you have a source for that?
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Re: Elvin Hayes all-time 

Post#36 » by B-Mitch 30 » Wed Jul 23, 2025 2:33 pm

penbeast0 wrote:LIved and breathed Bullets during this period and never heard of any teammate disliking Unseld. (Referees and maybe an opponents who didn't like the really brutal screens he set, but never even heard that.) Do you have a source for that?

Out of curiosity, what did teammates think of Hayes? I've heard he clashed with them at times, but that seems weird for a guy who it looks like gave his all every game on offense and defense.
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Re: Elvin Hayes all-time 

Post#37 » by penbeast0 » Wed Jul 23, 2025 4:41 pm

Hayes was apparently tough to warm up to even as a teammate. You could see a bit of it in his interviews. He was thin skinned and felt like he wasn't given enough respect. You didn't get the "as great a person as an athlete" sort of quotes you did about guys like Unseld and you could see it bothered him.
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Re: Elvin Hayes all-time 

Post#38 » by tsherkin » Thu Jul 24, 2025 7:20 pm

Iron man. Strong defender. Big minutes. 16 years, and 9 of them at 40+ mpg, led the league in MPG twice... 80+ GP every year. Dude was a beast who showed up. Not a good passer. Shot WAY too much and wasn't stunning at it (frequently below league average), but a bull at getting to the line.

A good example of old-school mentality at play, I think.

He was good. He had his issues, but he was obviously still a very good player. And he was a key piece to the last time Washington was in the Finals, and their only title. That's not for nothing, I'd think.
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Re: Elvin Hayes all-time 

Post#39 » by One_and_Done » Thu Jul 24, 2025 9:07 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
70sFan wrote:How would you rank Elvin Hayes? I think he used to be a bit overrated but now he seems to be overlooked when people talk about the best PFs ever.


Im not much of a fan. Note that he's before my time so I value beast and others chiming in but I've always seen a guy in Hayes that was seen by many as being the star over Unseld because of scoring, but it was hideously unefficient.

I think it's pretty safe to say he'd have to really change his approach to succeed in today's game, and his personality only makes that tougher.


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Also worth noting he was infamous for his bad attitude.

I just googled for quotes about it, and this came up. Very insightful.
viewtopic.php?t=939380#p20597852
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Re: Elvin Hayes all-time 

Post#40 » by tsherkin » Thu Jul 24, 2025 9:13 pm

One_and_Done wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
70sFan wrote:How would you rank Elvin Hayes? I think he used to be a bit overrated but now he seems to be overlooked when people talk about the best PFs ever.


Im not much of a fan. Note that he's before my time so I value beast and others chiming in but I've always seen a guy in Hayes that was seen by many as being the star over Unseld because of scoring, but it was hideously unefficient.

I think it's pretty safe to say he'd have to really change his approach to succeed in today's game, and his personality only makes that tougher.


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Also worth noting he was infamous for his bad attitude.

I just googled for quotes about it, and this came up. Very insightful.
viewtopic.php?t=939380#p20597852


Yeah, in today's game, his scoring and passing issues would be a problem. The D and rebounding are nice, and if the availability translated, that would also be a big deal. I'd love to see turnover numbers on him to see if he translated a little to someone like LaMarcus Aldridge or not, because that might mollify the issue some. Hayes was a 19.7 PTS36 guy, but a 21.0 PPG guy due to the minutes he logged, 21.3 for the Bullets. He actually wasn't a huge volume guy beyond his first 3 or 4 seasons... and even then, he was only a 22-23 PTS36 guy. A lot of his volume was actually produced with raw MPG... but he was also nearly a point-per-shot guy, at 20.5 FGA36 and 22.4 PTS36 over those first 4 seasons, so, not ideal.

EDIT: His later career suggests his turnover rate wasn't bad, but not amazing. I can't imagine it was better in his earlier seasons.

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