Shams: Raps acquire Ingram for Brown + Olynyk + IND 1st

[WiggOuts]

That’s because you’re attributing motive to randomness. You’re also ignoring all the times a team won the lottery where there wasn’t a conspiracy theory to attach to.

So because its not rigged every single time somehow means its not rigged at all?

Yes because you’re ignoring the times it could have been rigged in the favour of the NBA as a business. You also ignore the random times that teams have jumped up or won the lottery that it didn’t suit your narrative. The idea that it’s rigged is literally the example of selectively choosing data to reinforce your own bias.

Or there are times where they send certain player to certain markets to help the overall well being of the business. There are many times where that convenience factor doesn't exist and there isn't any real need/opportunity to do so.

I think there were times where they genuinely didn't rig things and that ended up creating situations that they didn't want. For example who won the lottery the year Iverson was the #1 pick

Just to be clear, you think the NBA has never rigged a draft ever right?

[CPT]

I wonder why the media talks about us, a team with 6th seed aspirations if everything goes perfectly, and teams with a chance to go to the finals differently?

It must be anti-Canadian bias.

[Mikistan]

So because its not rigged every single time somehow means its not rigged at all?

Yes because you’re ignoring the times it could have been rigged in the favour of the NBA as a business. You also ignore the random times that teams have jumped up or won the lottery that it didn’t suit your narrative. The idea that it’s rigged is literally the example of selectively choosing data to reinforce your own bias.

Or there are times where they send certain player to certain markets to help the overall well being of the business. There are many times where that convenience factor doesn't exist and there isn't any real need/opportunity to do so.

I think there were times where they genuinely didn't rig things and that ended up creating situations that they didn't want. For example who won the lottery the year Iverson was the #1 pick

Just to be clear, you think the NBA has never rigged a draft ever right?

Just look at how squeeky clean and on the up-and-up that the prez of the country is. The entire culture exudes legitimacy.

[HumbleRen]

I have been one of Siakam's biggest supporters and fans for a long time, but it is arguable that he is a better than Ingram at their absolute bests. The reality is Siakam has generally been healthy and is good for 35-40 MPG if necessary while Ingram hasn't had many healthy/full seasons (for a variety of reasons) since 20/21, but they are in a similar tier of stars where they are borderline all-stars to borderline All-NBA 2nd/3rd team kind of guys depending on the season. Regarding the OG/Ingram remark, you absolutely can say the same thing about Ingram. He would play ~36 MPG for every team in the league in the playoffs. It seems like you've just forgotten how good Ingram actually is because of his injuries.

Ingram hasn't been at his absolute best in 5 years, that's a problem. Somebody else called him a "potential All Star" in this thread, which is a real funny way of saying "not an All Star anymore".

Ingram is decent when healthy and no doubt the superior offensive player, but OG fits on every team in the league. He is a true 1-5 defender, can be played in big or small lineups - that's why he got traded for a big package and Ingram was moved for scraps. Elite playoff teams don't need Ingram to be the #1 guy, they already have players that do that more effectively. He'd be no better than MPJ.

I hope I'm wrong. I hope he has a full recovery and gets back to the player he was, but it was 100% a desperate move.

Would Ingram be the #1 scorer on the Pacers?

Yes but Haliburton would still be the #1 option.

[gpoon]

I have been one of Siakam's biggest supporters and fans for a long time, but it is arguable that he is a better than Ingram at their absolute bests. The reality is Siakam has generally been healthy and is good for 35-40 MPG if necessary while Ingram hasn't had many healthy/full seasons (for a variety of reasons) since 20/21, but they are in a similar tier of stars where they are borderline all-stars to borderline All-NBA 2nd/3rd team kind of guys depending on the season. Regarding the OG/Ingram remark, you absolutely can say the same thing about Ingram. He would play ~36 MPG for every team in the league in the playoffs. It seems like you've just forgotten how good Ingram actually is because of his injuries.

Ingram hasn't been at his absolute best in 5 years, that's a problem. Somebody else called him a "potential All Star" in this thread, which is a real funny way of saying "not an All Star anymore".

Ingram is decent when healthy and no doubt the superior offensive player, but OG fits on every team in the league. He is a true 1-5 defender, can be played in big or small lineups - that's why he got traded for a big package and Ingram was moved for scraps. Elite playoff teams don't need Ingram to be the #1 guy, they already have players that do that more effectively. He'd be no better than MPJ.

I hope I'm wrong. I hope he has a full recovery and gets back to the player he was, but it was 100% a desperate move.

OG fits better on almost every team in the league — if you already have your #1 and #2 options in place. I don't think the Raptors have had an elite scorer of Brandon Ingram's caliber in the last decade, outside of the championship season. It's been brutal the past few years when they'd hit these stretches where they just couldn't score. I think a player like BI would have a more significant impact on a roster like the raptors over OG. If you add him to the Knick or the Celtics then yes OG would be the better fit.

[Pointgod]

So because its not rigged every single time somehow means its not rigged at all?

Yes because you’re ignoring the times it could have been rigged in the favour of the NBA as a business. You also ignore the random times that teams have jumped up or won the lottery that it didn’t suit your narrative. The idea that it’s rigged is literally the example of selectively choosing data to reinforce your own bias.

Or there are times where they send certain player to certain markets to help the overall well being of the business. There are many times where that convenience factor doesn't exist and there isn't any real need/opportunity to do so.

I think there were times where they genuinely didn't rig things and that ended up creating situations that they didn't want. For example who won the lottery the year Iverson was the #1 pick

Just to be clear, you think the NBA has never rigged a draft ever right?

I’ve seen zero evidence that the NBA rigged the draft, especially since moving to the lottery balls system. The NBA rigging the draft to the benefit of some teams over others is not only hard to do, but it’s completely nonsensical for all 30 teams to go along with and for the NBA to randomly rig some drafts but not others. There’s literally video evidence of the process on YouTube and representatives from teams, the media, audit firm, lottery company all in attendance that theres really no way to rig it. And I’ve never seen actual evidence to support the claim that it’s rigged outside of just pointing out coincidences

[ATLTimekeeper]

I have been one of Siakam's biggest supporters and fans for a long time, but it is arguable that he is a better than Ingram at their absolute bests. The reality is Siakam has generally been healthy and is good for 35-40 MPG if necessary while Ingram hasn't had many healthy/full seasons (for a variety of reasons) since 20/21, but they are in a similar tier of stars where they are borderline all-stars to borderline All-NBA 2nd/3rd team kind of guys depending on the season. Regarding the OG/Ingram remark, you absolutely can say the same thing about Ingram. He would play ~36 MPG for every team in the league in the playoffs. It seems like you've just forgotten how good Ingram actually is because of his injuries.

Ingram hasn't been at his absolute best in 5 years, that's a problem. Somebody else called him a "potential All Star" in this thread, which is a real funny way of saying "not an All Star anymore".

Ingram is decent when healthy and no doubt the superior offensive player, but OG fits on every team in the league. He is a true 1-5 defender, can be played in big or small lineups - that's why he got traded for a big package and Ingram was moved for scraps. Elite playoff teams don't need Ingram to be the #1 guy, they already have players that do that more effectively. He'd be no better than MPJ.

I hope I'm wrong. I hope he has a full recovery and gets back to the player he was, but it was 100% a desperate move.

His production the past 5 seasons has been consistent. His all-star designation was not his best season. That was just the year he made the all-star game. In 2023 he averaged 24.7/5/5.7.

It's certainly valid to question his ability to stay on the floor, but the contract is short-term to account for his ability to stay on the floor. The price tends to be the price. Anthony Davis is still getting superstar money despite an early career of never staying on the floor. Same with Embiid. Same with JJJ, or Kyrie. Or look at what Kawhi is still getting paid.

[Tripod]

Man this isn't complicated.

Raps saw a chance to add a guy who would be the teams most natural scorer at the cost of 1 1st+filler. Of course injuries are an issue...that's why the cost was 1 1st. If healthy, like Siakam, the cost would be 3 1sts+ AND a max contract.

Raps are rolling the dice on adding high end talent at a very low acquiring cost to help them jump up the standings next year.

This is far from our finished roster so just relax. It's a stepping stone along the way. Raps are still crazy young and keep building on the depth. Adding Ingram pushes everyone down a spot which is good.

[OakleyDokely]

When Ingram plays, he's one of the better all-around players in the league. He's always in the 21-25 pt, 5-6 ast, 5-6 reb range. The other parts of his game don't get enough credit, especially the passing. Even his D is fine.

Last 6 seasons:

24/6/4, 46/39/85
24/5/5, 46/38/88
23/6/5, 46/33/83
25/6/6, 48/39/88
21/6/5, 49/36/80
22/6/5, 47/37/86

He's been remarkably consistent from a production/shooting standpoint since his 4th year in the league.

[JB7]

Don't fool yourself, we'll be just as screwed.

I don’t think you are looking closely enough at the length of the contracts.

Three years, so are we building around Dick or CMB at that point?

Point though is the team is more flexible than say the Magic, since the contracts are not as long, and the Raps still own all of their draft capital. Worse case scenario for the Raps is they let players walk (RJ & Ingram).

What is the worst case scenario for the Magic?

Look at the Sixers now. They essentially have two Beal contracts in Embiid and PG. That is over $100M in dead weight contracts, locked in for the next 3 years.

[PushDaRock]

Ingram hasn't been at his absolute best in 5 years, that's a problem. Somebody else called him a "potential All Star" in this thread, which is a real funny way of saying "not an All Star anymore".

Ingram is decent when healthy and no doubt the superior offensive player, but OG fits on every team in the league. He is a true 1-5 defender, can be played in big or small lineups - that's why he got traded for a big package and Ingram was moved for scraps. Elite playoff teams don't need Ingram to be the #1 guy, they already have players that do that more effectively. He'd be no better than MPJ.

I hope I'm wrong. I hope he has a full recovery and gets back to the player he was, but it was 100% a desperate move.

Would Ingram be the #1 scorer on the Pacers?

Yes but Haliburton would still be the #1 option.

#1 Scorer on a team that just went to the NBA Finals seems pretty good to me for the price we paid.

[PushDaRock]

Magic have a young true #1, not a oft injured journeyman.

Who would that be?

Palo, unless you think BI plays more over the next three.

He's not a true #1 yet and still needs to make a big jump to get there.

[right between the eyes]

I love the posters who are butthurt about how much Ingram is getting per year. Is it your money?

We honestly gave up garbage players for him and chances are we wouldn't be getting a player of his caliber in free agency. Some posters on this board literally complain about everything. You must be fun at parties.

Let's see how next season goes and go from there.

[MEDIC]

I find it bizarre that anyone would complain about the Ingram trade. Super low risk move with potentially high high reward. This is the type of move this organization needs to make. Not only that, but he is a damn good basketball player & is really fun to watch when he is cooking.

This deal was a no brainer. Even if he ends up injured the whole time, it was still worth the risk.

[Tacoma]

When Ingram plays, he's one of the better all-around players in the league. He's always in the 21-25 pt, 5-6 ast, 5-6 reb range. The other parts of his game don't get enough credit, especially the passing. Even his D is fine.

Last 6 seasons:

24/6/4, 46/39/85
24/5/5, 46/38/88
23/6/5, 46/33/83
25/6/6, 48/39/88
21/6/5, 49/36/80
22/6/5, 47/37/86

He's been remarkably consistent from a production/shooting standpoint since his 4th year in the league.

Reading parts of this thread and there appears to be some revisionist thoughts on BI happening here. A poll on this Board in Jan 2025 showed only 18% wanted BI to join the Raptors, losing to always injured Zion and "neither." So now that he's here, he's seemingly our savior?

Siakam put up similar numbers as BI over this period and he was traded away because we didn't want to pay him. Yeah, he's a few years older but given BI's inclination to be injured, it's not clear who will last longer. And as for BI being one of the better all around players, I'd say Siakam is even better, especially if you include defense as part of "all around." On offense alone, Siakam has also been #1 option on a 53-win team (TOR 2020), #2 option on a Championship team (TOR 2019) and the #1 scorer on a NBA Finals team (IND 2025). He's a well proven winner.

Ingram? Well... he's made the playoffs twice in 9 years, losing in 1st round both times. His career PPG average is an unspectacular 19.5 points. To be sure he can be quite good when not injured, but he'd have to almost be an MIP candidate (he won MIP in 2020) to meet the expectation bar some have set here... all for someone many didn't want to be traded here in the first place. He has some hefty shoes to fill to replace Siakam.

[OakleyDokely]

When Ingram plays, he's one of the better all-around players in the league. He's always in the 21-25 pt, 5-6 ast, 5-6 reb range. The other parts of his game don't get enough credit, especially the passing. Even his D is fine.

Last 6 seasons:

24/6/4, 46/39/85
24/5/5, 46/38/88
23/6/5, 46/33/83
25/6/6, 48/39/88
21/6/5, 49/36/80
22/6/5, 47/37/86

He's been remarkably consistent from a production/shooting standpoint since his 4th year in the league.

Reading parts of this thread and there appears to be some revisionist thoughts on BI happening here. A poll on this Board in Jan 2025 showed only 18% wanted BI to join the Raptors, losing to always injured Zion and "neither." So now that he's here, he's seemingly our savior?

Siakam put up similar numbers as BI over this period and he was traded away because we didn't want to pay him. Yeah, he's a few years older but given BI's inclination to be injured, it's not clear who will last longer. And as for BI being one of the better all around players, I'd say Siakam is even better, especially if you include defense as part of "all around." On offense alone, Siakam has also been #1 option on a 53-win team (TOR 2020), #2 option on a Championship team (TOR 2019) and the #1 scorer on a NBA Finals team (IND 2025). He's a well proven winner.

Ingram? Well... he's made the playoffs twice in 9 years, losing in 1st round both times. His career PPG average is an unspectacular 19.5 points. To be sure he can be quite good when not injured, but he'd have to almost be an MIP candidate (he won MIP in 2020) to meet the expectation bar some have set here... all for someone many didn't want to be traded here in the first place. He has some hefty shoes to fill to replace Siakam.

Siakam and Ingram are very different players. Not sure why they are being compared so frequently.

Ingram is much more suited for a high usage offensive role because of his shooting, iso ability and difficult shot making, which is something the Raps have severely lacked since 2019. Just because they put up similar numbers doesn't mean they play the same role, or operate in the same way or the results will be the same.

I've never seen anyone refer to him as a savior. Just someone who possesses certain skills the Raps have lacked who could push the rebuild forward, who they were able to get at a fair price through trade.

[Badonkadonk]

I love the posters who are butthurt about how much Ingram is getting per year. Is it your money?

We honestly gave up garbage players for him and chances are we wouldn't be getting a player of his caliber in free agency. Some posters on this board literally complain about everything. You must be fun at parties.

Let's see how next season goes and go from there.

Agreed, BI is outside the top 30 for AAV (33rd, for context OG is 29th and Zach Lavine 27th). His salary is a nothingburger, people just lack context for what NBA players are getting paid now.

Here's a palette cleanser, every made 3 from BI in '23/24 when he played 64 games:

Watch on YouTube

Two things stand out:
- He launches from anywhere; we haven't had enough of this in recent years and it's REALLY bad when you only have 1 person doing it (eg. FVV for a couple of years), but having IQ and BI able among the starters and Battle/Dick able to hit ATB is super valuable (looks like Ja'kobe may be shooting more from outside the corners too).
- He's so long! He has a high release point and was able to flat out ignore most of his defenders (he hits one over Yak at 12:15 on a pretty good contest)

Health is everything for BI. If he plays 60+ games he just needs to repeat what he's done well in the past to become All-Star level again.

[Dalek]

Read on Twitter

Rich Paul said that Ingram would not have got what he got with Toronto in the open market. Our desperate front office decided to overpay without assessing the open market. Now Ingram's some how getting $40m a season. We should boycott Rich Paul and the next FO has to stop the overpay. Focus on getting young where we hold the RFA card, not this trade and pay model Masai loves.

Yea not assessing the open market turned out to work against them. But that's in hindsight. The market in general was pretty tepid this offseason. Hard to predict that. We were being told all year going to be fireworks lol.

Bit of a misstep, not in acquiring him or the thought process, the misstep was not waiting to see what the market was going to be. There's some risk in that but you'd have been able to beat out whatever interest there would have been or whatever number another team would have thrown at him, clearly, at a lower number than what he's been signed to.

Its not an awful contract or anything, but it definitely could have been a little more team friendly if we played it out.

I don't think its too big an error though. We'll live.

I still im general believe that trades are the new free agency. A market like Toronto HAS to utilize that.



Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

It doesn't take a lot of research to know there were no team's with significant cap space to make an offer to Ingram in the 2025 off season. Maybe Brooklyn would have made an offer but that's about it, and they didn't even make any significant signings.

Ingram is guaranteed $40m a season for three years. If you don't like Ingram's fit or he is hurt, how do you even move off that contract in this environment? What teams are going to send multiple players for Ingram if he has a down year? Think of how the Bucks stretch-waived Lillard.

I am all for trades that make sense like getting a Davion Mitchell as a redraft candidate. That really worked out for Toronto until we weirdly pulled the plug on a guy who was a perfect fit for the defense. I am curious if we will move off Ochai next because we are so top-heavy on our salaries.

[Tacoma]

I find it bizarre that anyone would complain about the Ingram trade. Super low risk move with potentially high high reward. This is the type of move this organization needs to make. Not only that, but he is a damn good basketball player & is really fun to watch when he is cooking.

This deal was a no brainer. Even if he ends up injured the whole time, it was still worth the risk.

I'm generally not opposed of this trade but for devil's advocate, I'll take the opposing side in this case which involves looking at the bigger picture.

It's not the value of the trade that's at issue, rather it's the context/timing of the trade. This will be BI's 10th season, a win-now player for a team whose highest reasonable expectation is 6th place. Adding BI doesn't create a path to a championship, so why do the trade? It's low risk for what?

You're better off using trade assets for more picks or get younger players with more potential to grow with Barnes, CMB, etc., to begin creation of a reasonable path towards a future Championship. As we stand, with or without BI, we're not there. 6th place isn't the high reward we're after.

[pingpongrac]

When Ingram plays, he's one of the better all-around players in the league. He's always in the 21-25 pt, 5-6 ast, 5-6 reb range. The other parts of his game don't get enough credit, especially the passing. Even his D is fine.

Last 6 seasons:

24/6/4, 46/39/85
24/5/5, 46/38/88
23/6/5, 46/33/83
25/6/6, 48/39/88
21/6/5, 49/36/80
22/6/5, 47/37/86

He's been remarkably consistent from a production/shooting standpoint since his 4th year in the league.

Reading parts of this thread and there appears to be some revisionist thoughts on BI happening here. A poll on this Board in Jan 2025 showed only 18% wanted BI to join the Raptors, losing to always injured Zion and "neither." So now that he's here, he's seemingly our savior?

Siakam put up similar numbers as BI over this period and he was traded away because we didn't want to pay him. Yeah, he's a few years older but given BI's inclination to be injured, it's not clear who will last longer. And as for BI being one of the better all around players, I'd say Siakam is even better, especially if you include defense as part of "all around." On offense alone, Siakam has also been #1 option on a 53-win team (TOR 2020), #2 option on a Championship team (TOR 2019) and the #1 scorer on a NBA Finals team (IND 2025). He's a well proven winner.

Ingram? Well... he's made the playoffs twice in 9 years, losing in 1st round both times. His career PPG average is an unspectacular 19.5 points. To be sure he can be quite good when not injured, but he'd have to almost be an MIP candidate (he won MIP in 2020) to meet the expectation bar some have set here... all for someone many didn't want to be traded here in the first place. He has some hefty shoes to fill to replace Siakam.

I'm not sure what that poll and its results has to do with anything. No one knew how much either would cost and there was still the possibility that adding one of them would give us some more relatively meaningless wins at the end of the season. Because we got Ingram for so cheap and he ended up sitting out the entirety of the season after we acquired him while we also locked him up for a few years at a very reasonable AAV, it's a no-brainer. Either way, I don't think anyone is claiming Ingram is our savior. The majority of posters are being pretty realistic with their expectations, hoping he'll play ~60 games while being our best scoring threat aside from Kawhi over the past 10+ years and potentially helping us get back into the playoffs.

Siakam put up very similar numbers as Ingram, but they aren't stylistically very similar players. One had a lot of overlap with Scottie (Siakam) and the other is much more of a three-level scorer/guy who can score from anywhere on the floor (Ingram). In the end, Siakam turned into Ingram + Agbaji + JKW at nearly an identical dollar value for the time being (~3M more in 25/26).

Also, I distinctly remember that you were one of the posters that were adamant that Siakam wasn't the #2 option during the Championship run and that he just scored more than Lowry (who you thought was our 2nd option). What changed? Is it because Siakam is no longer on the team?