RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 3)

[bledredwine]

I completely forgot about the part that scoring titles are a playoffs award.

Again, my point was that using that as a metric to affirm the goat is archaic and short-sighted. MJ & LBJ are two very different archetypes that played in very different eras. Likewise Duncan won his MVPs while Iverson and McGrady were averaging 32ppg. There’s more to basketball than just putting the ball in the hoop. I’m hoping the previous sentence doesn’t make you come up with another one of your straw man arguments. Speaking of which, I never even claimed Lebron to be the better scorer. Damn near regurgitated a wiki page with your years of collecting anti-Lebron propaganda over something I didn’t even say. Your wall of copy pasta reeks of revisionism and it’s littered with mistakes. For example, in 2010 vs the Celtics and with the season on the line, LeBron put up a 27 - 19 - 10 triple double before leaving to Miami, not 15 points.

You continually move the goal post when your lack of objectivity is proven (which was ultimately my goal here) until you’re pretty much just arguing with your lonesome self. Red-herring opinions by connecting dots that aren’t on the page. Quite deranged and clearly obsessed but anyways good job, I do applaud the effort and lengths you’ve gone to, however extraneous they are. And btw, Lebron has the higher FG% and TS% in the playoffs but that has no merit even for my side of the initial debate. I’d appreciate some introspection on your end as well, especially if you’re having difficulty with keeping track of what I did and did not type.

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How often did Jordan not lead the playoffs in scoring? Not total as you'll want to cherry pick, but what matters, performance aka points per game.

Lebron's led once.

He was regular season Harden, if Harden didn't rely on threes/baiting, and had an arsenal of versatile moves
to get through the paint packed with bigs as well as a post up game with the best midrange and inside game the league has seen, or at the least, from any perimeter player.

All-time highest OBPM in a single playoff run:

Lebron 2009: +12.8
Jordan 1991: 10.5
Jordan 1990: 10.2
Lebron 2018: 10.1
Jordan 1993 / Jokic 2023: 9.7
Jordan 1989: 9.1
Jordan 1996: 8.8
Lebron 2014: 8.5
Lebron 2013: 8.4
Jordan 1992 / Curry 2017: 8.3


The most offense generated in a single playoff run (points from scoring + assists per game):

Jokic 2023: 55.7
Lebron 2018: 54.7
Magic 1986: 51.8
Jordan 1990: 51.0


Now back on topic with scoring titles;

- If Lebron attempted as many shots as the league leader did, and his shooting splits stayed the same—which tend to be the case for volume scorers—he would have won 12 scoring titles throughout his career.



- In fact throughout Jordan’s 13 seasons with the Bulls, he averaged 23.3 shots per game. If Lebron averaged 23.3 shots per game throughout his career, he would have a career scoring average of 32.2ppg, the highest of all time, edging out Jordan and his 30ppg.

You're relying on box score plus minus (offensive), which is far beyond a player's individual contribution.

Besides, Jordan leads Lebron in box score plus minus, both in playoffs and the regular season over their careers.

That's wild to assume that Lebron could just shoot more and score more. Obviously he couldn't, because the Boston, Mavs series,
averaged 1/3 the clutch points of Kevin Durant would have gone a different way.
Volume takes phenomenal skill and footwork, which both Jordan and Kobe had. Volume is a skill.

We can cite plenty of players below Lebron who have better efficiency. That doesn't mean anything unless you show that you can maintain the same efficiency, and once again, the only time Lebron had to carry the scoring load to that degree in the finals, was against Golden State and he shot .397 from the field, which Jordan has never shot so poorly, despite taking a higher volume than Lebron his entire career.

Lebron's been missing the shooting efficiency and relies on inside game, which is why he can't take more effortless shots like a Kobe, Durant, even Harden, or especially Jordan. Offensive box score plus minus is another cherry picked Lebron stat.

Jordan's Scoring Dominance
His lowest scoring playoff series came against the Hawks in '97. He "only" averaged 26.6 PPG in a 4-1 victory against Atlanta. Lebron's put up worse numbers in the finals on multiple occasions than Jordan's single worst scoring playoff series.
He also lead the Bulls in points, rebounds, steals, and blocks that series, and was 2nd to Pippen in assists. His 10.2 RPG was a career playoff series high. And guards played away from the rim. Jordan is one of the best guard rebounders of all time.

Only once in his playoff career did Jordan shoot under 40%. He shot 38.7% against the Heat in '97.

Some of Jordan's best (scoring) playoff performances

vs. Boston, 1986(Arguably the GOAT Boston team) - 43.7 pts/6.3 reb/5.7 ast/2.3 stl/1.3 blk/51% FG Clutch shot after clutch shot
vs. Cavs, 1988 - 45.2 pts/5.4 reb/4.8 ast/2+ stl/1+ blk/56% FG (back-to-back games of 50+) Clutch shot after clutch shot, series winner
vs. Philly, 1990 - 43.0 pts/6.6 reb/7.4 ast/3 stl/1+ blk/55+% FG (3 consecutive 45+ point games - 45,49,45)
vs. Lakers, 1991 - 31.2 pts/6.6 reb/11.4 ast/2.8 stl/1.4 blk/56% FG FINALS, Clutch shot after clutch shot... 13 field goals straight
vs. Miami, 1992 - 45.0 pts/9.7 reb/6.7 ast/3 stl/1 blk/61% FG
vs. Phoenix, 1993 - 41.0 pts/8.5 reb/6.3 ast/2 stl/1 blk/51% FG FINALS, Clutch shot after clutch shot... all of the Bulls' 4th quarter points before Paxson's shot. Finals record PPG in a series
vs. Bullets, 1997 - 37.3 pts/5.7 reb/5.3 ast/1 stl/57% FG

The Portland series isn't even included on the list, which is a hyper efficient 36 ppg, by the way.
Those are some of Jordan's dominant scoring performances.

Lebron's had plenty of years in the league. Please post some of his best playoff performances.
Jordan's numbers are outrageous. Lebron's will not be, except for maybe one series.

45.2 ppg on 56%?
43 PPG on 55%?
45 ppg on 61%?
41 ppg in the finals on 51%?

Lebron doesn't even sniff this. I've said this on the PC forum back in the day,
but Jordan single handedly has 7 of the top 10 playoff scoring averages of all time. Lebron doesn't
even appear on that list once. Even more impressive, other than Bernard King's series with the Knicks,
Jordan's efficiency is far beyond the other couple on the list, all of which were back in the old days of
33% more possessions. That's how dominant he was as a scorer.

Jordan also never lost a playoff series to a lower seed in his entire career.
Between 91-98, he went 25 of 26 playoff series, the loss coming to Shaq and Penny, a 96% win rate, winning Finals MVP each time.
Shaq and Penny is the one time he lost as a favorite, and was a favorite because of his prior dominance and the Bulls' quick ascension when he returned rusty.

MJ was 30-7 in playoff series during his career

6-7 as the lower seed and 24-0 as the higher seed

LeBron: 3 losses to a lower seed (2009, 2010, 2011)

Curry: 2 losses to a lower seed (2019 and 2023, 2016 doesn't technically count)

KD: 3 losses to a lower seed (2014, 2019, 2021, although he just barely played the 2019 Finals)

Giannis: 3 losses to a lower seed (2019, 2020, 2023, didn't play a minute in 2024 playoffs)

Jokic: 2 losses to a lower seed (2019, 2024)

Harden: 4 losses to a lower seed (2014, 2018, 2021, 2024)

CP3: 7 losses to a lower seed (2008, 2013, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2021, 2022)

Looking at some other big names:

Kobe did this twice (2004 and 2011)

Magic did this 4 times (1981, 1986, 1990, 1991)

Bird did this 6 times (1980, 1982, 1988, 1990, 1991, 1992)

The only other notable name aside from MJ I can find who also didn't do this is Bill Russell (who really didn't lose many series at all in general)

In all of his playoff series with the Bulls, he was only outscored once, by Terry Cummings. No one comes close to that.

Every player to average 40 ppg in multiple playoff series: Michael Jordan... that's it

So Rick Barry, Elgin Baylor, Jerry West, and Bernard King have also done it, but only once each. Michael Jordan has done it 5 times.

1986 First Round (0-3 vs Boston):

43.7 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 5.7 apg, 2.3 spg, 1.3 bpg.

51/100/87 splits, 58.4% TS and 51.1% EFG

1988 First Round (3-2 vs Cleveland):

45.2 ppg, 5.4 rpg, 4.8 apg, 2.8 spg, 1.6 bpg

56/00/92 splits, 63.2% TS and 55.9% EFG

1990 Second Round (4-1 vs Philadelphia):

43.0 ppg, 6.6 rpg, 7.4 apg, 4.0 spg, 1.2 bpg

55/39/85 splits, 61.6% TS and 57.6% EFG

1992 First Round (3-0 vs Miami):

45.0 ppg, 9.7 rpg, 6.7 apg, 3.0 spg, 1.0 bpg

61/00/91 splits, 66.8% TS and 60.9% EFG

1993 Finals (4-2 vs Phoenix):

41.0 ppg, 8.5 rpg, 6.3 apg, 1.7 spg, 0.7 bpg

51/40/69 splits, 55.8% TS and 53.3% EFG

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#playoffs-series::32

These are GOAT stats.

[Kawaii Leonard]

How often did Jordan not lead the playoffs in scoring? Not total as you'll want to cherry pick, but what matters, performance aka points per game.

Lebron's led once.

He was regular season Harden, if Harden didn't rely on threes/baiting, and had an arsenal of versatile moves
to get through the paint packed with bigs as well as a post up game with the best midrange and inside game the league has seen, or at the least, from any perimeter player.

All-time highest OBPM in a single playoff run:

Lebron 2009: +12.8
Jordan 1991: 10.5
Jordan 1990: 10.2
Lebron 2018: 10.1
Jordan 1993 / Jokic 2023: 9.7
Jordan 1989: 9.1
Jordan 1996: 8.8
Lebron 2014: 8.5
Lebron 2013: 8.4
Jordan 1992 / Curry 2017: 8.3


The most offense generated in a single playoff run (points from scoring + assists per game):

Jokic 2023: 55.7
Lebron 2018: 54.7
Magic 1986: 51.8
Jordan 1990: 51.0


Now back on topic with scoring titles;

- If Lebron attempted as many shots as the league leader did, and his shooting splits stayed the same—which tend to be the case for volume scorers—he would have won 12 scoring titles throughout his career.



- In fact throughout Jordan’s 13 seasons with the Bulls, he averaged 23.3 shots per game. If Lebron averaged 23.3 shots per game throughout his career, he would have a career scoring average of 32.2ppg, the highest of all time, edging out Jordan and his 30ppg.

You're relying on box score plus minus (offensive), which is far beyond a player's individual contribution.

Besides, Jordan leads Lebron in box score plus minus, both in playoffs and the regular season over their careers.

That's wild to assume that Lebron could just shoot more and score more. Obviously he couldn't, because the Boston, Mavs series,
averaged 1/3 the clutch points of Kevin Durant would have gone a different way.

Volume takes phenomenal skill and footwork, which both Jordan and Kobe had. Volume is a skill.

We can cite plenty of players below Lebron who have better efficiency. That doesn't mean anything unless you show that you can maintain the same efficiency, and once again, the only time Lebron had to carry the scoring load to that degree in the finals, was against Golden State and he shot .397 from the field, which Jordan has never shot so poorly, despite taking a higher volume than Lebron his entire career.

Lebron's been missing the shooting efficiency and relies on inside game, which is why he can't take more effortless shots like a Kobe, Durant, even Harden, or especially Jordan. Offensive box score plus minus is another cherry picked Lebron stat.

Ironic coming from the poster using a single raw stat of PPG and all the more so with regular season scoring titles to make this claim.

While OBPM isn’t perfect, it’s designed to isolate a player’s impact independent of team context. It measures how much better a team performs with that player on the floor, adjusting for pace and opponent. LeBron ranks consistently at the top across all eras in this metric for both regular season and playoffs, proving his long-term elite offensive impact even when surrounded by inconsistent rosters. If anything, LeBron’s OBPM holds more weight because he’s had to carry less cohesive supporting casts compared to Jordan’s dynastic Bulls. The claim that OBPM overstates individual contribution ignores LeBron’s all-around impact. Unlike Jordan, who primarily focused on scoring and defense, LeBron excels as a playmaker and rebounder. His OBPM reflects his ability to elevate teammates, as seen in his career averages of 7.5 apg compared to Jordan’s 5. LeBron’s playmaking creates scoring opportunities for others, which box score plus-minus captures while raw scoring stats do not. While Jordan may edge out in this metric, LeBron’s broader impact—evidenced by leading multiple teams to championships with varying rosters—demonstrates a more complete offensive influence.

Way to dodge the points generated comment once more. I also like how you continue to selectively choose when to use career averages or cherry-pick specific finals/series. Since you’re evidently deflecting away from losing the original scoring title argument, you’ve pivoted to playoffs production. I’ve given you multiple examples of Lebron having a higher peak than Jordan in offensive load and output in all-time playoff runs but I’m sure you’ve wiped out that part of your memory a while ago, since they’re both higher than Jordan’s. So now we go back to averages, right? They’re still neck and neck.

Lebron developed his post-game game under Hakeem after the 2011 Finals. Just watch Game 6 of the ECF in 2012 and tell me with a straight face again that “he doesn’t have a semi decent mid-range game” and now you’re claiming that he can’t shoot another 4-5 shots to hit Jordan’s volume or Kobe’s chucking because you think he lacks skill and footwork. Unreal.

A 21 yr old Lebron in his third season averaged 31.4ppg when he did take Jordan’s volume of 23 fga. It’s right there. Do you not have eyes?

Since you enjoy your cherries so much, I’ll offer you some as well. With the season on the line, Jordan shot 38% and 30% in the 1st round of the playoffs in ‘85 & ‘87. But I bet you’re one of those Jordan fans who prefers your player to underperform in the first 2 Rounds of the the playoffs, rather than in the Finals—especially against a more formidable/favoured, outmatched and experienced team.

[bledredwine]

All-time highest OBPM in a single playoff run:

Lebron 2009: +12.8
Jordan 1991: 10.5
Jordan 1990: 10.2
Lebron 2018: 10.1
Jordan 1993 / Jokic 2023: 9.7
Jordan 1989: 9.1
Jordan 1996: 8.8
Lebron 2014: 8.5
Lebron 2013: 8.4
Jordan 1992 / Curry 2017: 8.3


The most offense generated in a single playoff run (points from scoring + assists per game):

Jokic 2023: 55.7
Lebron 2018: 54.7
Magic 1986: 51.8
Jordan 1990: 51.0


Now back on topic with scoring titles;

- If Lebron attempted as many shots as the league leader did, and his shooting splits stayed the same—which tend to be the case for volume scorers—he would have won 12 scoring titles throughout his career.



- In fact throughout Jordan’s 13 seasons with the Bulls, he averaged 23.3 shots per game. If Lebron averaged 23.3 shots per game throughout his career, he would have a career scoring average of 32.2ppg, the highest of all time, edging out Jordan and his 30ppg.

You're relying on box score plus minus (offensive), which is far beyond a player's individual contribution.

Besides, Jordan leads Lebron in box score plus minus, both in playoffs and the regular season over their careers.

That's wild to assume that Lebron could just shoot more and score more. Obviously he couldn't, because the Boston, Mavs series,
averaged 1/3 the clutch points of Kevin Durant would have gone a different way.

Volume takes phenomenal skill and footwork, which both Jordan and Kobe had. Volume is a skill.

We can cite plenty of players below Lebron who have better efficiency. That doesn't mean anything unless you show that you can maintain the same efficiency, and once again, the only time Lebron had to carry the scoring load to that degree in the finals, was against Golden State and he shot .397 from the field, which Jordan has never shot so poorly, despite taking a higher volume than Lebron his entire career.

Lebron's been missing the shooting efficiency and relies on inside game, which is why he can't take more effortless shots like a Kobe, Durant, even Harden, or especially Jordan. Offensive box score plus minus is another cherry picked Lebron stat.

Ironic coming from the poster using a single raw stat of PPG and all the more so with regular season scoring titles to make this claim.

While OBPM isn’t perfect, it’s designed to isolate a player’s impact independent of team context. It measures how much better a team performs with that player on the floor, adjusting for pace and opponent. LeBron ranks consistently at the top across all eras in this metric for both regular season and playoffs, proving his long-term elite offensive impact even when surrounded by inconsistent rosters. If anything, LeBron’s OBPM holds more weight because he’s had to carry less cohesive supporting casts compared to Jordan’s dynastic Bulls. The claim that OBPM overstates individual contribution ignores LeBron’s all-around impact. Unlike Jordan, who primarily focused on scoring and defense, LeBron excels as a playmaker and rebounder. His OBPM reflects his ability to elevate teammates, as seen in his career averages of 7.5 apg compared to Jordan’s 5. LeBron’s playmaking creates scoring opportunities for others, which box score plus-minus captures while raw scoring stats do not. While Jordan may edge out in this metric, LeBron’s broader impact—evidenced by leading multiple teams to championships with varying rosters—demonstrates a more complete offensive influence.

Way to dodge the points generated comment once more. I also like how you continue to selectively choose when to use career averages or cherry-pick specific finals/series. Since you’re evidently deflecting away from losing the original scoring title argument, you’ve pivoted to playoffs production. I’ve given you multiple examples of Lebron having a higher peak than Jordan in offensive load and output in all-time playoff runs but I’m sure you’ve wiped out that part of your memory a while ago, since they’re both higher than Jordan’s. So now we go back to averages, right? They’re still neck and neck.

Lebron developed his post-game game under Hakeem after the 2011 Finals. Just watch Game 6 of the ECF in 2012 and tell me with a straight face again that “he doesn’t have a semi decent mid-range game” and now you’re claiming that he can’t shoot another 4-5 shots to hit Jordan’s volume or Kobe’s chucking because you think he lacks skill and footwork. Unreal.

Since you enjoy your cherries so much, I’ll offer you some as well. Jordan shot 38% back to back in the 1st round of the playoffs vs Miami in ‘96 & ‘97 while averaging 3 assists. But I bet you’re one of those Jordan fans who prefers your player to underperform in the first 2 Rounds of the the playoffs, rather than in the Finals—especially against a more formidable and outmatched and experience team.

Oh, I can address points generated easy!

Playoff points generated (percentage of team's points over career)

Jordan - 43.7%

Lebron - 40.3%

Way to dodge;

achievements
points per game
playoff failures
awful efficiency playoff performances from Lebron and literally none from Jordan
Disappearing
All time records in scoring
the top 10 playoff scoring performances of all time

and several other stats like they mean nothing,
but ironically bring up offensive plus minus, literally the most obvious form of cherry picking as it's
influenced by team metrics and opponents as well.

Yeah, you're not a Lebron fan at all as you claim? False.

I have bookmarks of this from legit sites and playlists, so we'll continue having fun tomorrow!

But I have some questions for you, since you're claiming I'm dodging. Try not to dodge but address these.

Why does Lebron have so many more poor playoff performances than Jordan?
Why does he have such a poor midrange and free throw percentage?
Why couldn't he have just one playoff performance that appears on the top 10 playoff series scoring averages of all time, especially since his team needed him to score? For example, his 40 point elimination games against the Nuggets, where he shot 1 for 6?

Why has Kevin Durant averaged 35 on him and Lebron 31 on WAY lower efficiency, n the finals if you're comparing him to Jordan?
Actually, why has Kevin Durant scored more points career head to head on better efficiency if Lebron is Jordan level as a scorer?

And if you claim Durant is better, than why doesn't he hold records like Jordan?

Why did Lebron average 35 ppg finally but on .397 (miserable efficiency) if you're bragging about his efficiency and claim he can hit more volume whenever he wants?

If you can not dodge these without sounding like your fudging or walking around it, I'll respect it. But the thing is, you actually can't. It's so many
weaknesses and examples when Jordan had none.
I fully expect "dodging", deflection to something else and excuses. That's the only route for you if you're really trying to compare Lebron as a scorer.

[Kawaii Leonard]

You're relying on box score plus minus (offensive), which is far beyond a player's individual contribution.

Besides, Jordan leads Lebron in box score plus minus, both in playoffs and the regular season over their careers.

That's wild to assume that Lebron could just shoot more and score more. Obviously he couldn't, because the Boston, Mavs series,
averaged 1/3 the clutch points of Kevin Durant would have gone a different way.

Volume takes phenomenal skill and footwork, which both Jordan and Kobe had. Volume is a skill.

We can cite plenty of players below Lebron who have better efficiency. That doesn't mean anything unless you show that you can maintain the same efficiency, and once again, the only time Lebron had to carry the scoring load to that degree in the finals, was against Golden State and he shot .397 from the field, which Jordan has never shot so poorly, despite taking a higher volume than Lebron his entire career.

Lebron's been missing the shooting efficiency and relies on inside game, which is why he can't take more effortless shots like a Kobe, Durant, even Harden, or especially Jordan. Offensive box score plus minus is another cherry picked Lebron stat.

Ironic coming from the poster using a single raw stat of PPG and all the more so with regular season scoring titles to make this claim.

While OBPM isn’t perfect, it’s designed to isolate a player’s impact independent of team context. It measures how much better a team performs with that player on the floor, adjusting for pace and opponent. LeBron ranks consistently at the top across all eras in this metric for both regular season and playoffs, proving his long-term elite offensive impact even when surrounded by inconsistent rosters. If anything, LeBron’s OBPM holds more weight because he’s had to carry less cohesive supporting casts compared to Jordan’s dynastic Bulls. The claim that OBPM overstates individual contribution ignores LeBron’s all-around impact. Unlike Jordan, who primarily focused on scoring and defense, LeBron excels as a playmaker and rebounder. His OBPM reflects his ability to elevate teammates, as seen in his career averages of 7.5 apg compared to Jordan’s 5. LeBron’s playmaking creates scoring opportunities for others, which box score plus-minus captures while raw scoring stats do not. While Jordan may edge out in this metric, LeBron’s broader impact—evidenced by leading multiple teams to championships with varying rosters—demonstrates a more complete offensive influence.

Way to dodge the points generated comment once more. I also like how you continue to selectively choose when to use career averages or cherry-pick specific finals/series. Since you’re evidently deflecting away from losing the original scoring title argument, you’ve pivoted to playoffs production. I’ve given you multiple examples of Lebron having a higher peak than Jordan in offensive load and output in all-time playoff runs but I’m sure you’ve wiped out that part of your memory a while ago, since they’re both higher than Jordan’s. So now we go back to averages, right? They’re still neck and neck.

Lebron developed his post-game game under Hakeem after the 2011 Finals. Just watch Game 6 of the ECF in 2012 and tell me with a straight face again that “he doesn’t have a semi decent mid-range game” and now you’re claiming that he can’t shoot another 4-5 shots to hit Jordan’s volume or Kobe’s chucking because you think he lacks skill and footwork. Unreal.

Since you enjoy your cherries so much, I’ll offer you some as well. Jordan shot 38% back to back in the 1st round of the playoffs vs Miami in ‘96 & ‘97 while averaging 3 assists. But I bet you’re one of those Jordan fans who prefers your player to underperform in the first 2 Rounds of the the playoffs, rather than in the Finals—especially against a more formidable and outmatched and experience team.

Oh, I can address points generated easy!

Playoff points generated (percentage of team's points over career)

Jordan - 43.7%

Lebron - 40.3%

Way to dodge;

achievements
points per game
playoff failures
awful efficiency playoff performances from Lebron and literally none from Jordan
Disappearing
All time records in scoring
the top 10 playoff scoring performances of all time

and several other stats like they mean nothing,
but ironically bring up offensive plus minus, literally the most obvious form of cherry picking as it's
influenced by team metrics and opponents as well.

Yeah, you're not a Lebron fan at all as you claim? False.

I have bookmarks of this from legit sites and playlists, so we'll continue having fun tomorrow!

But I have some questions for you, since you're claiming I'm dodging. Try not to dodge but address these.

Why does Lebron have so many more poor playoff performances than Jordan?
Why does he have such a poor midrange and free throw percentage?
Why couldn't he have just one playoff performance that appears on the top 10 playoff series scoring averages of all time, especially since his team needed him to score? For example, his 40 point elimination games against the Nuggets, where he shot 1 for 6?

Why has Kevin Durant averaged 35 on him and Lebron 31 on WAY lower efficiency, n the finals if you're comparing him to Jordan?
Actually, why has Kevin Durant scored more points career head to head on better efficiency if Lebron is Jordan level as a scorer?

And if you claim Durant is better, than why doesn't he hold records like Jordan?

Why did Lebron average 35 ppg finally but on .397 (miserable efficiency) if you're bragging about his efficiency and claim he can hit more volume whenever he wants?

If you can not dodge these without sounding like your bs'ing or walking around it, I'll respect it. But the thing is, you actually can't.
I fully expect "dodging" and excuses.

You should really start fact checking your sources. I know that you self-admittedly get the majority of your regurgitated cherry-picked numbers and slander from youtubers but it’s an eye sore now.

Lebron has on multiple occasions in the Finals had much more efficient series while maintaining within Jordan’s scoring range.

28 ppg on 57%
34 on 56%
30 on 59%

Are all higher than Jordan’s most efficient Finals of
31 ppg on 55% in ‘91

And as I mentioned before Jordan had multiple first round series where he shot 30% - 38%. Is it better to do that vs lesser competition in the first round or in the Finals vs more competent opponents.

Why do you incessantly put words in my mouth that I’ve never claimed. Why do you continue to dodge the topic at hand and shift sands into topics no one asked for?

It’s astonishing that even after all this you’re still mentioning points per game as an angle. In hindsight, it makes sense why you’re so engrossed in it. In their 6 finals runs; Pippen led them in assists and steals, and considerably out rebounded MJ. All the while LeBron has carried his teams multiple times while leading in every stat category aforementioned.

I was right to ignore you the first time around. Enjoy your day and carry on with your pep rally. I for one am exhausted with your antics.

[bledredwine]

Ironic coming from the poster using a single raw stat of PPG and all the more so with regular season scoring titles to make this claim.

While OBPM isn’t perfect, it’s designed to isolate a player’s impact independent of team context. It measures how much better a team performs with that player on the floor, adjusting for pace and opponent. LeBron ranks consistently at the top across all eras in this metric for both regular season and playoffs, proving his long-term elite offensive impact even when surrounded by inconsistent rosters. If anything, LeBron’s OBPM holds more weight because he’s had to carry less cohesive supporting casts compared to Jordan’s dynastic Bulls. The claim that OBPM overstates individual contribution ignores LeBron’s all-around impact. Unlike Jordan, who primarily focused on scoring and defense, LeBron excels as a playmaker and rebounder. His OBPM reflects his ability to elevate teammates, as seen in his career averages of 7.5 apg compared to Jordan’s 5. LeBron’s playmaking creates scoring opportunities for others, which box score plus-minus captures while raw scoring stats do not. While Jordan may edge out in this metric, LeBron’s broader impact—evidenced by leading multiple teams to championships with varying rosters—demonstrates a more complete offensive influence.

Way to dodge the points generated comment once more. I also like how you continue to selectively choose when to use career averages or cherry-pick specific finals/series. Since you’re evidently deflecting away from losing the original scoring title argument, you’ve pivoted to playoffs production. I’ve given you multiple examples of Lebron having a higher peak than Jordan in offensive load and output in all-time playoff runs but I’m sure you’ve wiped out that part of your memory a while ago, since they’re both higher than Jordan’s. So now we go back to averages, right? They’re still neck and neck.

Lebron developed his post-game game under Hakeem after the 2011 Finals. Just watch Game 6 of the ECF in 2012 and tell me with a straight face again that “he doesn’t have a semi decent mid-range game” and now you’re claiming that he can’t shoot another 4-5 shots to hit Jordan’s volume or Kobe’s chucking because you think he lacks skill and footwork. Unreal.

Since you enjoy your cherries so much, I’ll offer you some as well. Jordan shot 38% back to back in the 1st round of the playoffs vs Miami in ‘96 & ‘97 while averaging 3 assists. But I bet you’re one of those Jordan fans who prefers your player to underperform in the first 2 Rounds of the the playoffs, rather than in the Finals—especially against a more formidable and outmatched and experience team.

Oh, I can address points generated easy!

Playoff points generated (percentage of team's points over career)

Jordan - 43.7%

Lebron - 40.3%

Way to dodge;

achievements
points per game
playoff failures
awful efficiency playoff performances from Lebron and literally none from Jordan
Disappearing
All time records in scoring
the top 10 playoff scoring performances of all time

and several other stats like they mean nothing,
but ironically bring up offensive plus minus, literally the most obvious form of cherry picking as it's
influenced by team metrics and opponents as well.

Yeah, you're not a Lebron fan at all as you claim? False.

I have bookmarks of this from legit sites and playlists, so we'll continue having fun tomorrow!

But I have some questions for you, since you're claiming I'm dodging. Try not to dodge but address these.

Why does Lebron have so many more poor playoff performances than Jordan?
Why does he have such a poor midrange and free throw percentage?
Why couldn't he have just one playoff performance that appears on the top 10 playoff series scoring averages of all time, especially since his team needed him to score? For example, his 40 point elimination games against the Nuggets, where he shot 1 for 6?

Why has Kevin Durant averaged 35 on him and Lebron 31 on WAY lower efficiency, n the finals if you're comparing him to Jordan?
Actually, why has Kevin Durant scored more points career head to head on better efficiency if Lebron is Jordan level as a scorer?

And if you claim Durant is better, than why doesn't he hold records like Jordan?

Why did Lebron average 35 ppg finally but on .397 (miserable efficiency) if you're bragging about his efficiency and claim he can hit more volume whenever he wants?

If you can not dodge these without sounding like your bs'ing or walking around it, I'll respect it. But the thing is, you actually can't.
I fully expect "dodging" and excuses.

You're exhausted because there are an overwhelming number of stats showing that scoring
between these two is not even remotely close when it comes to consistency, and that includes percentages around the court.

Also.... Wrong. Jordan only shot sub .400 in one playoff series. Link me to them if you've seen otherwise.

And this is all moot since the difference in efficiency is minimal but the difference in volume is big (33.4 to 28.4 is big.). Lebron's been able to cherry pick shots. Every championship he won, he had a ton of scoring from
his second (and sometimes 3rd) option. Bigs have higher percentages because they take easier shots, of course Lebron does since his midrange is poor, and despite this, it's still barely higher. 35 ppg on .397 FG%. Jordan's highest scoring finals? 41 ppg on .508. Those aren't antics. Those are facts.

And if you think I'm BS'ing? The more pressure Lebron has to get buckets, the more he struggles.

LeBron James is 5-47 on game-tying/go-ahead shots in the final 5 seconds of the 4th quarter or overtime in the last 10 seasons

That's terrible as is his career percentage on game tying-winning shots with 5 seconds left.

He has a terrible percentage in terms of game tying/winning shots over his entire career. The only stats
that make him look good are from small sample sizes. This is worse than Kobe and not even sniffing Jordan.

There are literally compilations of him making borderline embarrassing clutch plays.

Watch on YouTube

I've fact checked plenty, by the way. You just really dislike the facts, and that's a fact.
you need to fact check, and you did just dodge all of my questions.
And for the record, Jordan shot .56 in 91.

When did Jordan shoot .397 in the finals like Lebron did against GS?
When did he choke and put up 18 ppg?

He's never been as inconsistent as Lebron because he's automatic. The difference is that Jordan has a midrange game,
which is not going to go in as frequently as playing only from inside. The field goal percentage is a moot point, especially
considering that despite this, Lebron still has far more sub .400 series than Jordan, who literally only has 1. Jordan was a
much more skilled and automatic scorer than lebron.

Can you link me to the multiple Jordan playoff series in the 30 percentile from the field? I'd love to see.

Tyson Chandler had many playoff series of efficiency that Lebron has never touched. It doesn't matter. Tyson took easy shots,
just like Lebron did, and cherry picked, compared to Jordan. I laid that debate to rest in the last two posts and you haven't answered any of it.

And of course PPG matters what you even talking about

Did the PPG in 2011 not matter either since his FG% was okay?

[Kawaii Leonard]

Oh, I can address points generated easy!

Playoff points generated (percentage of team's points over career)

Jordan - 43.7%

Lebron - 40.3%

Way to dodge;

achievements
points per game
playoff failures
awful efficiency playoff performances from Lebron and literally none from Jordan
Disappearing
All time records in scoring
the top 10 playoff scoring performances of all time

and several other stats like they mean nothing,
but ironically bring up offensive plus minus, literally the most obvious form of cherry picking as it's
influenced by team metrics and opponents as well.

Yeah, you're not a Lebron fan at all as you claim? False.

I have bookmarks of this from legit sites and playlists, so we'll continue having fun tomorrow!

But I have some questions for you, since you're claiming I'm dodging. Try not to dodge but address these.

Why does Lebron have so many more poor playoff performances than Jordan?
Why does he have such a poor midrange and free throw percentage?
Why couldn't he have just one playoff performance that appears on the top 10 playoff series scoring averages of all time, especially since his team needed him to score? For example, his 40 point elimination games against the Nuggets, where he shot 1 for 6?

Why has Kevin Durant averaged 35 on him and Lebron 31 on WAY lower efficiency, n the finals if you're comparing him to Jordan?
Actually, why has Kevin Durant scored more points career head to head on better efficiency if Lebron is Jordan level as a scorer?

And if you claim Durant is better, than why doesn't he hold records like Jordan?

Why did Lebron average 35 ppg finally but on .397 (miserable efficiency) if you're bragging about his efficiency and claim he can hit more volume whenever he wants?

If you can not dodge these without sounding like your bs'ing or walking around it, I'll respect it. But the thing is, you actually can't.
I fully expect "dodging" and excuses.

Wrong. Jordan only shot sub .400 in one playoff series.

And this is all moot since Lebron's been able to cherry pick shots. Every championship he won, he had a ton of scoring from
his second (and sometimes 3rd) option.

But when he has the pressure? He can't do it.

LeBron James is 5-47 on game-tying/go-ahead shots in the final 5 seconds of the 4th quarter or overtime in the last 10 seasons
He has a terrible percentage in terms of game tying/winning shots over his entire career. The only stats
that make him look good are from small sample sizes. This is worse than Kobe and not even sniffing Jordan.

You should really start fact checking your sources. I know that you self-admittedly get the majority of your regurgitated cherry-picked numbers and slander from youtubers but it’s an eye sore now.

Lebron has on multiple occasions in the Finals had much more efficient series while maintaining within Jordan’s scoring range.

28 ppg on 57%
34 on 56%
30 on 59%

Are all higher than Jordan’s most efficient Finals of
31 ppg on 55% in ‘91

And as I mentioned before Jordan had multiple first round series where he shot 38%. Is it better to do that vs lesser competition in the first round or in the Finals vs more competent opponents.

Why do you incessantly put words in my mouth that I’ve never claimed. Why do you continue to dodge the topic at hand and shift sands into topics no one asked for?

It’s astonishing that even after all this you’re still mentioning points per game as an angle. I was right to ignore you the first time around. Enjoy your day and carry on with your pep rally. I for one am exhausted with your antics.

you need to fact check, and you did just dodge all of my questions.
And for the record, Jordan shot .56 in 91.

When did Jordan shoot .397 in the finals like Lebron did against GS?

He's never been as inconsistent as Lebron because he's automatic. The difference is that Jordan has a midrange game,
which is not going to go in as frequently as playing only from inside. The field goal percentage is a moot point, especially
considering that despite this, Lebron still has far more sub .400 series than Jordan, who literally only has 1. Jordan was a
much more skilled and automatic scorer than lebron.

Can you link me to the multiple Jordan playoff series in the 30 percentile from the field? I'd love to see.

Tyson Chandler had many playoff series of efficiency that Lebron has never touched. It doesn't matter. Tyson took easy shots,
just like Lebron did, and cherry picked, compared to Jordan. I laid that debate to rest in the last two posts and you haven't answered any of it.

I answer, you don’t read or comprehend. I hate to repeat myself multiple times.

As for the 2015 Finals you’re so fixated on, it’s almost like the 2nd and 3rd options on his team were absent. I wonder what type of impact that creates on a heliocentric do-it-all player when the entire opponent’s game plan is to stop 1 player. Thankfully he had all-star all nba talents of Matty Dellavedova and Timofey Mozgov on the floor to give him ample room to operate all the while he lead both teams in every statistical category.

Lol at bringing in Deandre Jordan and Tyson Chandler to dismiss what efficiency means in this context. You truly can’t grasp the concept of volume in this sport, can you?

I bet you think Chandler is closer to Lebron, than Lebron is to Jordan with these type of mental gymnastics. The underlined tells us everything we need to know that you are a troll of trolls, and quite obviously the most insecure stan present. With your logic, Steph is the goat, right?—since Jordan cherry-picked his shots in the mid-range. Shaq probably isn’t even top 50 in your looney head.

It may be dyslexia at this point. Zero ability to absorb any information through text unless it fits the optics. Unable to answer simple questions or stay on topic with straw mans and red-herring. Most “talking to a brick wall” experience I’ve ever had on these boards. You’re right Jordan didn’t shoot like that in the Finals but he sure did shoot 30% - 38% in multiple first rounds.

So answer this one question so we can finally put this to bed. Is it better to do that vs lesser competition in the first round or in the Finals vs more competent opponents?

[bledredwine]

Wrong. Jordan only shot sub .400 in one playoff series.

And this is all moot since Lebron's been able to cherry pick shots. Every championship he won, he had a ton of scoring from
his second (and sometimes 3rd) option.

But when he has the pressure? He can't do it.

LeBron James is 5-47 on game-tying/go-ahead shots in the final 5 seconds of the 4th quarter or overtime in the last 10 seasons
He has a terrible percentage in terms of game tying/winning shots over his entire career. The only stats
that make him look good are from small sample sizes. This is worse than Kobe and not even sniffing Jordan.

You should really start fact checking your sources. I know that you self-admittedly get the majority of your regurgitated cherry-picked numbers and slander from youtubers but it’s an eye sore now.

Lebron has on multiple occasions in the Finals had much more efficient series while maintaining within Jordan’s scoring range.

28 ppg on 57%
34 on 56%
30 on 59%

Are all higher than Jordan’s most efficient Finals of
31 ppg on 55% in ‘91

And as I mentioned before Jordan had multiple first round series where he shot 38%. Is it better to do that vs lesser competition in the first round or in the Finals vs more competent opponents.

Why do you incessantly put words in my mouth that I’ve never claimed. Why do you continue to dodge the topic at hand and shift sands into topics no one asked for?

It’s astonishing that even after all this you’re still mentioning points per game as an angle. I was right to ignore you the first time around. Enjoy your day and carry on with your pep rally. I for one am exhausted with your antics.

you need to fact check, and you did just dodge all of my questions.
And for the record, Jordan shot .56 in 91.

When did Jordan shoot .397 in the finals like Lebron did against GS?
When did he choke and put up 18 ppg?

He's never been as inconsistent as Lebron because he's automatic. The difference is that Jordan has a midrange game,
which is not going to go in as frequently as playing only from inside. The field goal percentage is a moot point, especially
considering that despite this, Lebron still has far more sub .400 series than Jordan, who literally only has 1. Jordan was a
much more skilled and automatic scorer than lebron.

Can you link me to the multiple Jordan playoff series in the 30 percentile from the field? I'd love to see.

Tyson Chandler had many playoff series of efficiency that Lebron has never touched. It doesn't matter. Tyson took easy shots,
just like Lebron did, and cherry picked, compared to Jordan. I laid that debate to rest in the last two posts and you haven't answered any of it.

As for the 2015 Finals you’re so fixated on, it’s almost like the 2nd and 3rd options on his team were absent. I wonder what type of impact that creates on a heliocentric do-it-all player when the entire opponent’s game plan is to stop 1 player. Thankfully he had all-star all nba talents of Matty Dellavedova and Timofey Mozgov on the floor to give him ample room to operate all the while he lead both teams in every statistical category.

Lol at bringing in Deandre Jordan and Tyson Chandler to dismiss what efficiency means in this context. You truly can’t grasp the concept of volume in this sport, can you?

It may be dyslexia at this point.

New defense mechanism unlocked.

"Points per game doesn't matter"

^^^ You actually said that.

I'm sure Jordan would have been bummed about Kawhi checking into the game to guard him like Lebron was.

[michaelm]

you need to fact check, and you did just dodge all of my questions.
And for the record, Jordan shot .56 in 91.

When did Jordan shoot .397 in the finals like Lebron did against GS?
When did he choke and put up 18 ppg?

He's never been as inconsistent as Lebron because he's automatic. The difference is that Jordan has a midrange game,
which is not going to go in as frequently as playing only from inside. The field goal percentage is a moot point, especially
considering that despite this, Lebron still has far more sub .400 series than Jordan, who literally only has 1. Jordan was a
much more skilled and automatic scorer than lebron.

Can you link me to the multiple Jordan playoff series in the 30 percentile from the field? I'd love to see.

Tyson Chandler had many playoff series of efficiency that Lebron has never touched. It doesn't matter. Tyson took easy shots,
just like Lebron did, and cherry picked, compared to Jordan. I laid that debate to rest in the last two posts and you haven't answered any of it.

As for the 2015 Finals you’re so fixated on, it’s almost like the 2nd and 3rd options on his team were absent. I wonder what type of impact that creates on a heliocentric do-it-all player when the entire opponent’s game plan is to stop 1 player. Thankfully he had all-star all nba talents of Matty Dellavedova and Timofey Mozgov on the floor to give him ample room to operate all the while he lead both teams in every statistical category.

Lol at bringing in Deandre Jordan and Tyson Chandler to dismiss what efficiency means in this context. You truly can’t grasp the concept of volume in this sport, can you?

It may be dyslexia at this point.

New defense mechanism unlocked.

"Points per game doesn't matter"

^^^ You actually said that.

I'm sure Jordan would have been bummed about Kawhi checking into the game to guard him like Lebron was.

Yes another LeBron partisan who didn’t see Jordan in his time as has always been obvious.

What amused me was the talk of revisionism. And of rose coloured glasses from people who didn’t follow Jordan in his time. I was probably older than you back then, and didn’t follow basketball nearly as obsessively as I have more recently, but you are definitely not guilty of either, you pretty much reflect how Jordan was regarded at the time, rightly or wrongly, and are not embroidering things in this regard. The double threepeat was regarded as something which would forever be unmatched, much as I am sure the Bill Russell Celtics were regarded. Of course someone can be better than Jordan, and LeBron who is certainly the player of his era has a case. Jordan did of course have good to great teams built around him, a positive for him imo, and Pippen in particular was a perfect foil, and his teammates deserve much credit, but Jordan was very much regarded as the main man just as LeBron has been on his teams, although I would argue Davis was co-equal in 2020. The irony for me is that LeBron fans now think as Jordan fans did back then that nobody could possibly be as good as him.

I see you were taken to task over posting about Jordan’s scoring titles, about which I would comment at least those were actually achievements by Jordan, as opposed to Scranton non Bulls posting the accolades of other players on the Jordan Bulls in an attempt to diminish Jordan

[Kawaii Leonard]

you need to fact check, and you did just dodge all of my questions.
And for the record, Jordan shot .56 in 91.

When did Jordan shoot .397 in the finals like Lebron did against GS?
When did he choke and put up 18 ppg?

He's never been as inconsistent as Lebron because he's automatic. The difference is that Jordan has a midrange game,
which is not going to go in as frequently as playing only from inside. The field goal percentage is a moot point, especially
considering that despite this, Lebron still has far more sub .400 series than Jordan, who literally only has 1. Jordan was a
much more skilled and automatic scorer than lebron.

Can you link me to the multiple Jordan playoff series in the 30 percentile from the field? I'd love to see.

Tyson Chandler had many playoff series of efficiency that Lebron has never touched. It doesn't matter. Tyson took easy shots,
just like Lebron did, and cherry picked, compared to Jordan. I laid that debate to rest in the last two posts and you haven't answered any of it.

As for the 2015 Finals you’re so fixated on, it’s almost like the 2nd and 3rd options on his team were absent. I wonder what type of impact that creates on a heliocentric do-it-all player when the entire opponent’s game plan is to stop 1 player. Thankfully he had all-star all nba talents of Matty Dellavedova and Timofey Mozgov on the floor to give him ample room to operate all the while he lead both teams in every statistical category.

Lol at bringing in Deandre Jordan and Tyson Chandler to dismiss what efficiency means in this context. You truly can’t grasp the concept of volume in this sport, can you?

It may be dyslexia at this point.

New defense mechanism unlocked.

"Points per game doesn't matter"

^^^ You actually said that.

I'm sure Jordan would have been bummed about Kawhi checking into the game to guard him like Lebron was.

*my take: Scoring titles are moot in this debate:

*reasons:
- pass-first point forward vs. shoot-first volume guard in vastly different eras is hard to gauge

- use points generated to take into account the surplus of assists for a balanced approach

- assess how efficiency + longevity fits into the equation


Your genius brain:



“Haha he thinks PPG doesn’t matter! What a silly fool, Lebron got most of his buckets way closer to the rim anyway!”

[ScrantonBulls]

Good lord, what did I just read? A mixture of goalpost moving, posting completely wrong statistics, YouTube channels with incorrect information dedicated to deifying MJ/hating LeBron (I assume one was his channel), changing the subject when he was wrong, cherry picking stats and getting proven wrong on numerous occasions by bledredwine. It's funny because this happens every few months or so. An informed poster will have a debate with him where they quickly find out that he has no idea what he is talking about and does all of the above. They never bother debating him again because nothing gets through and his debating is in such poor faith. I'd say he's trolling but he puts too much time and effort into those posts.

Also funny was Kawaii stating that he has Jordan as the GOAT, but that simply wasn't enough for bledredwine. You need to go full blown irrational, deifying mode and claim MJ is a god. Since Kawaii didn't, he was deemed a "LeBron stan". And then somehow michaelm read that whole conversation and concluded "Kawaii is a LeBron 'partisan." You can't make this stuff up.

The funniest part is this has been happening for 15+ years dating back to ESPN boards

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2406073&start=20#p114881101

[Kawaii Leonard]

Good lord, what did I just read? A mixture of goalpost moving, posting completely wrong statistics, YouTube channels with incorrect information dedicated to deifying MJ/hating LeBron (I assume one was his channel), changing the subject when he was wrong, cherry picking stats and getting proven wrong on numerous occasions by bledredwine. It's funny because this happens every few months or so. An informed poster will have a debate with him where they quickly find out that he has no idea what he is talking about and does all of the above. They never bother debating him again because nothing gets through and his debating is in such poor faith. I'd say he's trolling but he puts too much time and effort into those posts.

Also funny was Kawaii stating that he has Jordan as the GOAT, but that simply wasn't enough for bledredwine. You need to go full blown irrational, deifying mode and claim MJ is a god. Since Kawaii didn't, he was deemed a "LeBron stan". And then somehow michaelm read that whole conversation and concluded "Kawaii is a LeBron 'partisan." You can't make this stuff up.

The funniest part is this has been happening for 15+ years dating back to ESPN boards

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2406073&start=20#p114881101

They were made for each other.
Oh to be a fly on the wall while these two sit, hand-in-hand, and have an in-depth lengthy discussion of their basketball worlds through their brilliant lenses made of copium. One barking through a megaphone listing away every Lebron turnover. The other lackadaisical but nodding away as he mumbles more gibberish. When’s the last time you heard someone in person use the word ‘partisan’? Like seriously, it’s okay to use fan or stan, my friend. No one will think you less.

I would pay good money. Should honestly start a podcast together.

[michaelm]

Good lord, what did I just read? A mixture of goalpost moving, posting completely wrong statistics, YouTube channels with incorrect information dedicated to deifying MJ/hating LeBron (I assume one was his channel), changing the subject when he was wrong, cherry picking stats and getting proven wrong on numerous occasions by bledredwine. It's funny because this happens every few months or so. An informed poster will have a debate with him where they quickly find out that he has no idea what he is talking about and does all of the above. They never bother debating him again because nothing gets through and his debating is in such poor faith. I'd say he's trolling but he puts too much time and effort into those posts.

Also funny was Kawaii stating that he has Jordan as the GOAT, but that simply wasn't enough for bledredwine. You need to go full blown irrational, deifying mode and claim MJ is a god. Since Kawaii didn't, he was deemed a "LeBron stan". And then somehow michaelm read that whole conversation and concluded "Kawaii is a LeBron 'partisan." You can't make this stuff up.

The funniest part is this has been happening for 15+ years dating back to ESPN boards

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2406073&start=20#p114881101

They were made for each other.
Oh to be a fly on the wall while these two sit, hand-in-hand, and have an in-depth lengthy discussion of their basketball worlds through their brilliant lenses made of copium. One barking through a megaphone listing away every Lebron turnover. The other lackadaisical but nodding away as he mumbles more gibberish. When’s the last time you heard someone in person use the word ‘partisan’? Like seriously, it’s okay to use fan or stan, my friend. No one will think you less.

I would pay good money. Should honestly start a podcast together.

So like Scranton Bulls you don’t know the meaning of the word partisan, just as is the case with the words irony (you talking of double acts qualifies btw) and revisionism, and this is supposed to make me feel bad ?. Resort to argumentum ad hominem is usually a sign of desperation rather than confidence.

Bledredwine has never pretended to be other than what he is, putting him a long way ahead of someone pretending to be a Bulls fan, or pretending to rate Jordan ahead of LeBron, or to have been a dispassionate observer/witness of LeBron and/or Jordan, if the three of you are actually separable, I Was a Witness having been somewhat mysteriously absent.

[Kawaii Leonard]

Good lord, what did I just read? A mixture of goalpost moving, posting completely wrong statistics, YouTube channels with incorrect information dedicated to deifying MJ/hating LeBron (I assume one was his channel), changing the subject when he was wrong, cherry picking stats and getting proven wrong on numerous occasions by bledredwine. It's funny because this happens every few months or so. An informed poster will have a debate with him where they quickly find out that he has no idea what he is talking about and does all of the above. They never bother debating him again because nothing gets through and his debating is in such poor faith. I'd say he's trolling but he puts too much time and effort into those posts.

Also funny was Kawaii stating that he has Jordan as the GOAT, but that simply wasn't enough for bledredwine. You need to go full blown irrational, deifying mode and claim MJ is a god. Since Kawaii didn't, he was deemed a "LeBron stan". And then somehow michaelm read that whole conversation and concluded "Kawaii is a LeBron 'partisan." You can't make this stuff up.

The funniest part is this has been happening for 15+ years dating back to ESPN boards

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2406073&start=20#p114881101

They were made for each other.
Oh to be a fly on the wall while these two sit, hand-in-hand, and have an in-depth lengthy discussion of their basketball worlds through their brilliant lenses made of copium. One barking through a megaphone listing away every Lebron turnover. The other lackadaisical but nodding away as he mumbles more gibberish. When’s the last time you heard someone in person use the word ‘partisan’? Like seriously, it’s okay to use fan or stan, my friend. No one will think you less.

I would pay good money. Should honestly start a podcast together.

So like Scranton Bulls you don’t know the meaning of the word partisan, just as is the case with the words irony and revisionism, and this is supposed to make me feel bad ?. Again argumentum ad hominem is all you have.

Bledredwine has never pretended to be other than what he is, putting him a long way ahead of someone pretending to be a Bulls fan, or pretending to rate Jordan ahead of LeBron, or to have been a dispassionate observer/witness of LeBron and/or Jordan, if the three of you are actually separable, I Was a Witness having been somewhat mysteriously absent.

You're adorable. Do you enjoy reading? What are some of your favourite books?
Drop the sly act and cheeky jabs you clown. Not even man enough to be direct about it. Your accusations of me in this thread just may end being the most hypocritical claims in this entire thread. This includes bledredwine's manic episode.

[DOT]

Good lord, what did I just read? A mixture of goalpost moving, posting completely wrong statistics, YouTube channels with incorrect information dedicated to deifying MJ/hating LeBron (I assume one was his channel), changing the subject when he was wrong, cherry picking stats and getting proven wrong on numerous occasions by bledredwine. It's funny because this happens every few months or so. An informed poster will have a debate with him where they quickly find out that he has no idea what he is talking about and does all of the above. They never bother debating him again because nothing gets through and his debating is in such poor faith. I'd say he's trolling but he puts too much time and effort into those posts.

Also funny was Kawaii stating that he has Jordan as the GOAT, but that simply wasn't enough for bledredwine. You need to go full blown irrational, deifying mode and claim MJ is a god. Since Kawaii didn't, he was deemed a "LeBron stan". And then somehow michaelm read that whole conversation and concluded "Kawaii is a LeBron 'partisan." You can't make this stuff up.

The funniest part is this has been happening for 15+ years dating back to ESPN boards

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2406073&start=20#p114881101

They were made for each other.
Oh to be a fly on the wall while these two sit, hand-in-hand, and have an in-depth lengthy discussion of their basketball worlds through their brilliant lenses made of copium. One barking through a megaphone listing away every Lebron turnover. The other lackadaisical but nodding away as he mumbles more gibberish. When’s the last time you heard someone in person use the word ‘partisan’? Like seriously, it’s okay to use fan or stan, my friend. No one will think you less.

I would pay good money. Should honestly start a podcast together.

I'm half convinced that dude is just using ChatGPT with how many easily verifiable stats he gets wrong.

[bledredwine]

It may be dyslexia at this point.

New defense mechanism unlocked.

"Points per game doesn't matter"

^^^ You actually said that.

I'm sure Jordan would have been bummed about Kawhi checking into the game to guard him like Lebron was.

Yes another LeBron partisan who didn’t see Jordan in his time as has always been obvious.

What amused me was the talk of revisionism. And of rose coloured glasses from people who didn’t follow Jordan in his time. I was probably older than you back then, and didn’t follow basketball nearly as obsessively as I have more recently, but you are definitely not guilty of either, you pretty much reflect how Jordan was regarded at the time, rightly or wrongly, and are not embroidering things in this regard. The double threepeat was regarded as something which would forever be unmatched, much as I am sure the Bill Russell Celtics were regarded. Of course someone can be better than Jordan, and LeBron who is certainly the player of his era has a case. Jordan did of course have good to great teams built around him, a positive for him imo, and Pippen in particular was a perfect foil, and his teammates deserve much credit, but Jordan was very much regarded as the main man just as LeBron has been on his teams, although I would argue Davis was co-equal in 2020. The irony for me is that LeBron fans now think as Jordan fans did back then that nobody could possibly be as good as him.

I see you were taken to task over posting about Jordan’s scoring titles, about which I would comment at least those were actually achievements by Jordan, as opposed to Scranton non Bulls posting the accolades of other players on the Jordan Bulls in an attempt to diminish Jordan

Not to mention he was able to do it efficiently without 3s.

There were far fewer 20 point per game players back then and 20 was considered star level.

In terms of scoring, there's no question here. It's nice to see someone who watched both players.

[bledredwine]

They were made for each other.
Oh to be a fly on the wall while these two sit, hand-in-hand, and have an in-depth lengthy discussion of their basketball worlds through their brilliant lenses made of copium. One barking through a megaphone listing away every Lebron turnover. The other lackadaisical but nodding away as he mumbles more gibberish. When’s the last time you heard someone in person use the word ‘partisan’? Like seriously, it’s okay to use fan or stan, my friend. No one will think you less.

I would pay good money. Should honestly start a podcast together.

So like Scranton Bulls you don’t know the meaning of the word partisan, just as is the case with the words irony and revisionism, and this is supposed to make me feel bad ?. Again argumentum ad hominem is all you have.

Bledredwine has never pretended to be other than what he is, putting him a long way ahead of someone pretending to be a Bulls fan, or pretending to rate Jordan ahead of LeBron, or to have been a dispassionate observer/witness of LeBron and/or Jordan, if the three of you are actually separable, I Was a Witness having been somewhat mysteriously absent.

You're adorable. Do you enjoy reading? What are some of your favourite books?
Drop the sly act and cheeky jabs you clown. Not even man enough to be direct about it. Your accusations of me in this thread just may end being the most hypocritical claims in this entire thread. This includes bledredwine's manic episode.

lol, you're so upset.
Look at how ridiculous and low quality your posts are.
What do you get out of doing this?

Seriously, you sound like some triggered high school boy.

"Points per game doesn't matter" - points per game literally determines which team wins A gem like that is how you know Jordan dominates that debate.
Yeah, that was hilarious, and it's okay to acknowledge that it was ignorant. I've been waiting for you to show your true colors, "I'm not a Lebron fan".

It's different when you come over from the PC bubble to post here, isn't it? We actually have Jordan fans too, who will provide stats.
And those stats? They are so overwhelming that I sincerely enjoy doing this. It's like playing a game that's rigged in your favor, except... it's reality.

Their efficiency is close despite lebron shooting 70% from near the rim yet the volume isn't close at all.
I'm sorry, the truth hurts.

Oh and relative to their era? Jordan was further above average than Lebron, both in efficiency and from 3. He wasn't even
playing attention to those stats, unlike Lebron, and still dominates him.


50 point playoff games in NBA history
Jordan - 8
Rest of the league combined - 42

Lebron - 1 of them

And before the 3 point blowup and opening of the lane? It was Jordan 8, rest of the league 13.

It's just too easy with this dumb debate.

[Kawaii Leonard]

So like Scranton Bulls you don’t know the meaning of the word partisan, just as is the case with the words irony and revisionism, and this is supposed to make me feel bad ?. Again argumentum ad hominem is all you have.

Bledredwine has never pretended to be other than what he is, putting him a long way ahead of someone pretending to be a Bulls fan, or pretending to rate Jordan ahead of LeBron, or to have been a dispassionate observer/witness of LeBron and/or Jordan, if the three of you are actually separable, I Was a Witness having been somewhat mysteriously absent.

You're adorable. Do you enjoy reading? What are some of your favourite books?
Drop the sly act and cheeky jabs you clown. Not even man enough to be direct about it. Your accusations of me in this thread just may end being the most hypocritical claims in this entire thread. This includes bledredwine's manic episode.

lol, you're so upset.
Look at how ridiculous and low quality your posts are.
What do you get out of doing this?

Seriously, you sound like some triggered high school boy.

"Points per game doesn't matter" - points per game literally determines which team wins A gem like that is how you know Jordan dominates that debate.
Yeah, that was hilarious, and it's okay to acknowledge that it was ignorant. I've been waiting for you to show your true colors, "I'm not a Lebron fan".

It's different when you come over from the PC bubble to post here, isn't it? We actually have Jordan fans too, who will provide stats.
And those stats? They are so overwhelming that I sincerely enjoy doing this. It's like playing a game that's rigged in your favor, except... it's reality.

You should be the last person here to question the quality of a post after the amount of drivel you’ve been smearing on the wall.

You are mentally-ill or suffering from dyslexia.
Quote me where I said I wasn’t a Lebron fan.

Find a single post of mine on the PC boards. I actively avoid that place because I know there are others like you on there.

One can be a fan of both players (or just the one as in your case) without being a complete lunatic.


Allow me to help you out, yet again.

I’m familiar with these types after my keyboard wars with WarriorGM. I’ve learned that ignoring is the best course after one or two full takes. If they can’t be reasoned with, it’s only your time & energy you are wasting.
I get that we’re on the internet and we can hide behind our online characters, but how do you even sleep at night—while knowing you’re this much of a troll or fraud? Holding this much of a grudge on a person you’ve never met, who doesn’t even know of your existence is an extension of their irl stress or troubles perhaps. Sports does bring out the best and worst of us emotionally sometimes.

Is it escapism? Did Lebron pass his kid for an autograph after waiting for hrs? Is he on the Jordan Legacy PR team’s payroll? What is it, to push someone to these type of lengths? It makes me question so many things beyond just basketball.

It works both ways. We think the same of you guys until you can discuss these matters with a sense of integrity and respect.

Who is ‘we’ and ‘you guys’? I’m a massive fan of both players. I consider MJ the goat and LBJ the boat, as Riley coined it. You’re a flaming red, glazing homer of your Airness and a dismissive hypocritical cynic of Lebron. Even Skip Bayless would be in awe.

I like players who play both sides of the court and not one.

You say stuff like this about a 6x all-def player, who was runner-up dpoy from 2011 - 2013, and we’re supposed to level with you while showing respect and integrity?

I will now be taking my own advice from that first paragraph in the quoted. All the best and I wish you a speedy recovery.

[bledredwine]

You're adorable. Do you enjoy reading? What are some of your favourite books?
Drop the sly act and cheeky jabs you clown. Not even man enough to be direct about it. Your accusations of me in this thread just may end being the most hypocritical claims in this entire thread. This includes bledredwine's manic episode.

lol, you're so upset.
Look at how ridiculous and low quality your posts are.
What do you get out of doing this?

Seriously, you sound like some triggered high school boy.

"Points per game doesn't matter" - points per game literally determines which team wins A gem like that is how you know Jordan dominates that debate.
Yeah, that was hilarious, and it's okay to acknowledge that it was ignorant. I've been waiting for you to show your true colors, "I'm not a Lebron fan".

It's different when you come over from the PC bubble to post here, isn't it? We actually have Jordan fans too, who will provide stats.
And those stats? They are so overwhelming that I sincerely enjoy doing this. It's like playing a game that's rigged in your favor, except... it's reality.

You are mentally-ill or suffering from dyslexia.
Quote me where I said I wasn’t a Lebron fan.

Find a single post of mine on the PC boards. I actively avoid that place because I know there are others like you on there.

One can be a fan of both players (or just the one as in your case) without being a complete lunatic.


Allow me to help you out, yet again.

It works both ways. We think the same of you guys until you can discuss these matters with a sense of integrity and respect.

Who is ‘we’ and ‘you guys’? I’m a massive fan of both players. I consider MJ the goat and LBJ the boat, as Riley coined it. You’re a flaming red, glazing homer of your Airness and a dismissive hypocritical cynic of Lebron. Even Skip Bayless would be in awe.

I like players who play both sides of the court and not one.

You say stuff like this about a 6x all-def player, who was runner-up dpoy from 2011 - 2013, and we’re supposed to level with you while showing respect and integrity?

I will now be taking my own advice from that first paragraph in the quoted. All the best and I wish you a speedy recovery.

We hereby appoint you the new ScrantonBulls of this forum! Keep up the quality posts.

[Kawaii Leonard]

lol, you're so upset.
Look at how ridiculous and low quality your posts are.
What do you get out of doing this?

Seriously, you sound like some triggered high school boy.

"Points per game doesn't matter" - points per game literally determines which team wins A gem like that is how you know Jordan dominates that debate.
Yeah, that was hilarious, and it's okay to acknowledge that it was ignorant. I've been waiting for you to show your true colors, "I'm not a Lebron fan".

It's different when you come over from the PC bubble to post here, isn't it? We actually have Jordan fans too, who will provide stats.
And those stats? They are so overwhelming that I sincerely enjoy doing this. It's like playing a game that's rigged in your favor, except... it's reality.

You are mentally-ill or suffering from dyslexia.
Quote me where I said I wasn’t a Lebron fan.

Find a single post of mine on the PC boards. I actively avoid that place because I know there are others like you on there.

One can be a fan of both players (or just the one as in your case) without being a complete lunatic.


Allow me to help you out, yet again.

Who is ‘we’ and ‘you guys’? I’m a massive fan of both players. I consider MJ the goat and LBJ the boat, as Riley coined it. You’re a flaming red, glazing homer of your Airness and a dismissive hypocritical cynic of Lebron. Even Skip Bayless would be in awe.




You say stuff like this about a 6x all-def player, who was runner-up dpoy from 2011 - 2013, and we’re supposed to level with you while showing respect and integrity?

I will now be taking my own advice from that first paragraph in the quoted. All the best and I wish you a speedy recovery.

We hereby appoint you the new ScrantonBulls of this forum! Keep up the quality posts.

I’m not at all surprised that you don’t understand how analogies work or that you would come to the conclusion of associating ScrantonBulls and the PC board with myself. Considering how your brain malfunctions to even remember what you read on the very same page of your responses, it makes sense why you’re inept at player comparisons or comparisons all together. Embarrassing stuff.

I suggest we create the new title of the ‘Bledredwine Windbag’.
RealGM’s friendly neighbourhood charlatan with the memory of a goldfish, who goes on the most head-scratching tangents and trails of thought. To be a member of this prestigious honour, one must first master the ways of goalpost moving, deflection of topic when refuted, selective sampling, falsifying records, and unyielding dogmatism. The more unabashed and unscrupulous, the better. Any takers or nominations?

[SlimShady83]

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