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Josh Giddey Thread 2.0

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Re: Josh Giddey Thread 2.0 

Post#1061 » by MrSparkle » Sun Jul 20, 2025 6:47 pm

kodo wrote:
ThisGuyFawkes wrote:
League Circles wrote:I think it's a really great sign for our future that we're only offering less than 2/3 of a measley 25% max deal to Giddey. My thinking is that the Bulls do indeed REALLY like Giddey. They should! He played really nicely for us, he's very promising! But he's not a Wemby, Lebron, KD type guy. He's just not. And maybe, just maybe, AK has learned that the only way you can really win without one of those nearly impossible to get guys is to have a team that genuinely does have a rotation full of genuinely good players. Even if Giddey might genuinely end up as the marginal best player on a really deep, good contender type roster down the road a bit, you'd still need quite a bit around him. You'll really need 3-4 similar caliber players and probably some really good depth behind them. Well, the only way to do that without going deeply into the tax is to pay guys modestly. If we can ink Giddey to low 20s, AND actually succeed, it does make it more likely that can strike team friendly deals with multiple other players going forward. In a lot of ways he's the first domino in this team build which is critical.

I can't help but wonder if Paxson and/or the Reinsdorfs have sort of coached AK more into a mindset of negotiating harder to get better deals as a path to sustainable competitiveness.


All this. If they want to have a team of 8-9 good players, they can't be maxing anyone haha. It seems like a pivot, and at least they're following through with the financial part.


Except $25M isn't a good player, it's 8 or 9 crap players.
$25M = Terry Rozier, Miles Bridges, Nic Claxton, Kyle Kuzma, John Collins.
A team of made up of those players I just named and a few more of that tier is the worst team in the league.

This is why the plan was always dumb and why no GM tries this, everyone is trying to acquire a star or a few stars & build around them with low cost roleplayers.

And you can't even afford 9 players, 9 players @ $25M + 6 min contracts is a $237M roster...the most expensive team in the league is only $216M. So you're really looking at worse players than the list above.


It is a ludicrous strategy, thinking dollars and quantity before performance.

Any normal team tries to get the best players possible. If you get a star on a value deal (ala young Curry, Pippen), it’s usually due to an anomaly of health/underachieving/pre-breakout, and it’s a very short window where you benefit.

In many ways, $20-30M guys are the worst deals in the business, because they play like primary options but they aren’t good enough to actually dominate and win playoff games (otherwise they’d fetch the max easy).

With Giddey, they could’ve seen this trap situation as an expiring RFA. I could’ve told you you’re not getting him for great value- imo that would’ve been 100/5 at most, but it wasn’t happening. He sees himself as a more expensive player. You sign him in a dead market. Could’ve let OKC let him expire and then make a play. But his agent wants respect from the home team.
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Re: Josh Giddey Thread 2.0 

Post#1062 » by Rose2Boozer » Sun Jul 20, 2025 8:00 pm

If both sides are ten million apart, I think Giddey is probably asking for thirty-five million per. AK better not be offering twenty million per after rolling over and giving Williams eighteen million over five seasons. I think twenty million per sounds more like a comfortable range for Ayo.
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Re: Josh Giddey Thread 2.0 

Post#1063 » by nomorezorro » Sun Jul 20, 2025 8:14 pm

i don't think you have a great grasp on what players are worth
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Re: Josh Giddey Thread 2.0 

Post#1064 » by DrModesty » Mon Jul 21, 2025 1:22 am

I think one contract that makes for an interesting touchstone for Giddey is Dejounte Murray.

Murray started his career as an excellent defender who wasn't getting much offensive burn as he was lower in the pecking order and couldn't shoot at all. But in the last few years he was given much more responsibility on offense and his defense pretty much fell off a cliff (Since leaving SAS he has been a negative defender, but not a catastrophe).

Murray had 1 year where he was given number 1 option status for a full year. He put up 21/9/8 and made the all star team on a Spurs team that didn't make the playoffs back in 2021/22. He was traded to Atlanta that off season. When that trade happened he was on a good contract (2/35 remaining), but the Spurs wanted to rebuild and were concerned about probably having to max him if he stayed there as the first option putting up those sorts of stats.

The return the Spurs got was Danillo Gallonari (expiring filler salary), Charlotte 2023 1st (lottery protected, didn't convey, turned in to 2026 and 2027 Charlotte 2nds which look like good value seconds), Atlanta unprotected 2025 1st (Just turned in to Carter Bryant at #14), a 2026 Hawks/Spurs swap unprotected, Atlanta unprotected 2027 1st.

Clearly the Spurs sold at the peak and managed to get maximum return. Even at the time it felt like an overpay for him, but I have been a bit of a Murray skeptic (ironic I know).

In his first year with Atlanta, Murray put up 20/6/5 as the second option to Trae Young (18 shots per game though, just less ball handling and being the number 1 whenever Trae was on the bench/injured). The Hawks underachieved as the Murray move was supposed to be their all in contender push but they finished 41-41 and lost in the first round (the same as the year before, and worse than their conference finals run 2 years before). It became clear that his defense wasn't as advertised and his fit with Trae wasn't very good.

Murray was now an expiring 1/18 and the mood on him had soured, but he was still viewed as a solid starting level player. He got a contract extension of 4/120 which was well received by most.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/14rqc81/fischer_there_continues_to_be_optimism_among/.

I know that is only a reddit source, but I remember tv shows, realgm, podcasts and youtubers all having similar majority sentiments to the comments in that thread.

In his second year with Atlanta, the Hawks went 36-46 while Murray contributed 22.5/6.4/5.3. This was boosted by Trae picking up an injury and missing essentially the entire post all star break (A time period that parallels what we saw with Giddey post Lavine) and during this time Murray put up 24/9/6 on very high usage (30% usage and 21 fga). By contrast Giddey's stretch was 21/9/11 (25% usage and 14.5 fga post all star).

After this 2 years was up, with Murray about to start his 4/120 extension (final year player option), he was traded to the Pelicans.

Atlanta's return was Dyson Daniels (A calculated swing on an underachieving prospect that paid off), Larry Nance Jr (probably worth seconds) and some other expiring filler, as well as the 2025 Lakers 1st, and the less favorable of the Pels/Bucks 2027 1sts with top 4 protections. The Lakers pick was traded to dump Terrence Mann's 3/45 contract and bring in Porzingis. Obviously Daniels has also had a major break out. What this shows is that even on a long term 30m AAV contract, and with him being viewed less favorably over time, Murray was still able to generate significant positive value in a trade.

The Pelicans are viewed to have lost this trade, but a big part of that was Daniels breaking out and then what happened with Murray and the Pels. This season the Pelicans were an injury riddled basket case of a franchise. Murray himself had a broken wrist, came back and played 30 games at less than his best (17/6/7 with bad efficiency) then did his Achilles. Now his contract is underwater because he is going to be out for all of next season, and on top of that the Pels have pivoted to a youth movement. Murray actually makes sense as a veteran for them going forward if he is still good post Achilles. But right now the contract is definitely negative as the worst case scenario has occurred.

Clearly all of what I have written on Murray is very mixed. But that is a big part of why he and Giddey make for good comparison. They both have similar flaws and similar strengths which means Murray can be viewed as a bit of a canary in the coal mine for the Bulls with Giddey.

Dejounte Murray is one of the most comparable box score players in the league to Giddey when played in a similar role. Giddey is a better rebounder and passer, but Murray doesn't turn the ball over as much. Murray has consistently been a poor efficiency guy (best ever True Shooting is 55.5%, career 52.7%) and Giddey has also largely been inefficient in his career so far (Best TS% 57%, career 53.5%, improved every year so far). Murray has been a shoddy 3 point shooter during his career (34% for career), but has increased his volume over time. Giddey is at 33% for his career but has improved each year and increased his volume this past season. Murray is not a guy who generates many free throws, and Giddey hasn't been so far either, but showed some good promise last season. Murray led a mediocre Spurs team to the play-in as the number 1 option as a 25 year old, but never got that role again. Giddey has done similar with the Bulls this year with a similar level supporting cast but at 22 years old. Murray during his prime has had some troubles fitting in as a secondary option because of his shooting and defensive woes which mirror Giddey's career so far, except Murray has still been afforded a high volume of shots since giving up lead ball handling duties.

So what is different between the two? First, Giddey is several years younger than Dejounte when he went to the Hawks, and when he signed his extension. Second, the Bulls don't have a Trae Young type player that will inherently depress Giddey's value and production like he did to Murray. Third, the Bulls don't have a 'superstar' like Trae that they are constantly trying to appease and make happy. Fourth, Giddey has not picked up a devastating injury which is what made Murrays contract a negative (it was traded at significant positive value before he got injured).

Something that is similar is that both teams gave up something significant the year before negotiations. Caruso for the Bulls and I mentioned the investment from the Hawks earlier.

I think the level of player Murray has been represents a realistic middling outcome for Giddey. We have seen what that player got paid, and how his value has evolved over time in different circumstances. It took a huge injury, plus multiple teams losing trades when acquiring him, plus his teams underachieving each year, plus him now not having 'upside' for him to become a negative asset at 30m AAV.
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Re: Josh Giddey Thread 2.0 

Post#1065 » by sco » Mon Jul 21, 2025 12:35 pm

I like the Murray comp. He's a primary ballhandler type-guy who isn't a #1 option scorer. He made his reputation as a defensive player but proved to be just average. Not sure how it makes me feel about paying Giddey, but I think it provides context if we were thinking about "building around him" as a challenging plan.

I will say that we sign him, given his role here, I would expect the sort of gaudy stats that would likely make him tradeable after a year or two. I heard someone on ESPN have him as his dark horse candidate to make the ASG this season.
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Re: Josh Giddey Thread 2.0 

Post#1066 » by Ctownbulls » Mon Jul 21, 2025 6:54 pm

sco wrote:I like the Murray comp. He's a primary ballhandler type-guy who isn't a #1 option scorer. He made his reputation as a defensive player but proved to be just average. Not sure how it makes me feel about paying Giddey, but I think it provides context if we were thinking about "building around him" as a challenging plan.

I will say that we sign him, given his role here, I would expect the sort of gaudy stats that would likely make him tradeable after a year or two. I heard someone on ESPN have him as his dark horse candidate to make the ASG this season.


Murray is overpaid, nobody really wants him, and his contract was pre new CBA (I believe).
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Re: Josh Giddey Thread 2.0 

Post#1067 » by meekrab » Mon Jul 21, 2025 10:33 pm

Murray comp is somewhat apt, although he's supposedly a **** and his defense was always going to turn out a mirage when forced into a high usage role on offense, neither of which apply to the Giddler. If anything Josh got better on defense in the second half of last year, though admittedly he was starting from 'fairly bad'.
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Re: Josh Giddey Thread 2.0 

Post#1068 » by sco » Tue Jul 22, 2025 12:48 pm

meekrab wrote:Murray comp is somewhat apt, although he's supposedly a **** and his defense was always going to turn out a mirage when forced into a high usage role on offense, neither of which apply to the Giddler. If anything Josh got better on defense in the second half of last year, though admittedly he was starting from 'fairly bad'.

I will add here that Murray reminds me that a good majority of top 100 players who are a top 3 option on their team, aren't better than average defenders...I just think it takes too much energy to be great on both ends. So maybe our ask on Giddey to be better than average (which IMO he became last season) is unrealistic.
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Re: Josh Giddey Thread 2.0 

Post#1069 » by sonny » Tue Jul 22, 2025 5:34 pm

Read on Twitter
?s=46
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Re: Josh Giddey Thread 2.0 

Post#1070 » by MGB8 » Tue Jul 22, 2025 6:28 pm

sonny wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=46


Wow. But he makes a solid argument. This probably summarizes where Doug is sort of at. I didn't realize that he was so bad on D vs Miami. So if those clips are brutal, though lack of help also comes into play.

Reinforces my thought that you can't have him primarily assigned to defend guards - he can't keep up - and honestly have to be careful in the switch.
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Re: Josh Giddey Thread 2.0 

Post#1071 » by Jcool0 » Tue Jul 22, 2025 6:45 pm

MGB8 wrote:
sonny wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=46


Wow. But he makes a solid argument. This probably summarizes where Doug is sort of at. I didn't realize that he was so bad on D vs Miami. So if those clips are brutal, though lack of help also comes into play.

Reinforces my thought that you can't have him primarily assigned to defend guards - he can't keep up - and honestly have to be careful in the switch.


When a creep looking floating head is taking it makes me not want to trust a thing he says.
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Re: Josh Giddey Thread 2.0 

Post#1072 » by Stratmaster » Wed Jul 23, 2025 12:41 am

Sports Illustrated reported yesterday that Giddey is standing firm at 30 mil, and "revelaed" that the Bulls offer is 4 years @ 20mil per. the source is a guy named Brett Siegel from Clutch Points. So I went to Clutch Points link. Siegel's source in his article yesterday is "league sources". Anybody know about this guy and whether or not his "league sources" are reliable? He then says the 2 sides are supposed to get together "this summer" and work out differences. I guess he doesn't realize it is late July? Is this just rehashing of old assumptions or is it confirmation of what we have been hearing?
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Re: Josh Giddey Thread 2.0 

Post#1073 » by nomorezorro » Wed Jul 23, 2025 12:58 am

i don't think siegel is totally source-less — some of the stuff he reported pre-draft/FA panned out, i'm pretty sure — but i also get the vibe that he's a dude who is just reporting every single thing he is "hearing" without a good filter for what's legit and what's not. ultimately, there's a reason he works for clutchpoints and not a real news outlet.

i would say don't totally ignore it but take it with a decent grain of salt.
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Re: Josh Giddey Thread 2.0 

Post#1074 » by MrSparkle » Wed Jul 23, 2025 1:32 am

IMO Giddey’s gonna gamble on his self with a 1Y deal. AK will F it up.
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Re: Josh Giddey Thread 2.0 

Post#1075 » by DuckIII » Wed Jul 23, 2025 2:01 am

nomorezorro wrote:i don't think you have a great grasp on what players are worth


I agree. But it does feel like it all happened really quickly. Pun intended. Salaries exploded so suddenly it took my mind awhile to catch up. We’ll all get there together, nomo. As a team.
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Re: Josh Giddey Thread 2.0 

Post#1076 » by 2weekswithpay » Wed Jul 23, 2025 2:05 am

KC said on his podcast that the Bulls and Giddey are far apart in negotiations. Giddey is stuck on 30M, and the Bulls are closer to 20M. KC did speculate that if they reach a deal, it'll be closer to the Bulls' 20M and maybe shorter in years so Giddey can become a UFA earlier.

KC hasn't mentioned exact numbers on any offers, so I wouldn't trust that information from Siegel.
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Re: Josh Giddey Thread 2.0 

Post#1077 » by DuckIII » Wed Jul 23, 2025 2:08 am

MGB8 wrote:
sonny wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=46


Wow. But he makes a solid argument.


It was a lame regurgitation of the same silly narratives used here. He basically just read posts from this board. The fact that he led with the joke argument about being “played out” of the OKC playoff series says it all. And if that weren’t enough, he used that series - which happened before the Bulls trade - as proof that “the Caruso trade was a disaster.”

A. Disaster. :lol:

Yeah. “Solid argument.”

I didn’t finish. At the end did he make a wisecrack about underaged girls?
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Re: Josh Giddey Thread 2.0 

Post#1078 » by DuckIII » Wed Jul 23, 2025 2:24 am

2weekswithpay wrote:KC said on his podcast that the Bulls and Giddey are far apart in negotiations. Giddey is stuck on 30M, and the Bulls are closer to 20M. KC did speculate that if they reach a deal, it'll be closer to the Bulls' 20M and maybe shorter in years so Giddey can become a UFA earlier.

KC hasn't mentioned exact numbers on any offers, so I wouldn't trust that information from Siegel.


Legitimately sourced or not, it kinda tracks.
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Re: Josh Giddey Thread 2.0 

Post#1079 » by kulaz3000 » Wed Jul 23, 2025 2:34 am

DuckIII wrote:
2weekswithpay wrote:KC said on his podcast that the Bulls and Giddey are far apart in negotiations. Giddey is stuck on 30M, and the Bulls are closer to 20M. KC did speculate that if they reach a deal, it'll be closer to the Bulls' 20M and maybe shorter in years so Giddey can become a UFA earlier.

KC hasn't mentioned exact numbers on any offers, so I wouldn't trust that information from Siegel.


Legitimately sourced or not, it kinda tracks.


As long as the Bulls front office doesn't balk and stays firms. And at most, they settle on a 25 million or less figure, but the contract is only for 2 seasons, I'd be more than happy with that. This would give the Bulls two additional years to assess when Josh's game is at the end of this period, but ideally doesn't take the full two full seasons, and then they can work on an extension prior to him becoming a UFA.

Short contract, win for the Bulls to allow them to assess Josh's game further. Short contract allows Josh to hit the market earlier, and bet on himself. It would be a win win. And in all honesty, I actually really like Josh and I wish we resign him, but he isn't some budding superstar either, and at best, we're talking about a really good second or third best player type. Hell, say under the worst situation we lose him, fine, it means the team goes backwards, and they will be forced to build through the lottery which isn't that much worse than the position we are currently at anyhow.
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Re: Josh Giddey Thread 2.0 

Post#1080 » by DuckIII » Wed Jul 23, 2025 2:47 am

kulaz3000 wrote:
DuckIII wrote:
2weekswithpay wrote:KC said on his podcast that the Bulls and Giddey are far apart in negotiations. Giddey is stuck on 30M, and the Bulls are closer to 20M. KC did speculate that if they reach a deal, it'll be closer to the Bulls' 20M and maybe shorter in years so Giddey can become a UFA earlier.

KC hasn't mentioned exact numbers on any offers, so I wouldn't trust that information from Siegel.


Legitimately sourced or not, it kinda tracks.


As long as the Bulls front office doesn't balk and stays firms. And at most, they settle on a 25 million or less figure, but the contract is only for 2 seasons, I'd be more than happy with that. This would give the Bulls two additional years to assess when Josh's game is at the end of this period, but ideally doesn't take the full two full seasons, and then they can work on an extension prior to him becoming a UFA.

Short contract, win for the Bulls to allow them to assess Josh's game further. Short contract allows Josh to hit the market earlier, and bet on himself. It would be a win win. And in all honesty, I actually really like Josh and I wish we resign him, but he isn't some budding superstar either, and at best, we're talking about a really good second or third best player type. Hell, say under the worst situation we lose him, fine, it means the team goes backwards, and they will be forced to build through the lottery which isn't that much worse than the position we are currently at anyhow.


I’d be okay with that. I’d be okay with a lot of different variations on Giddey deals frankly, so long as they aren’t so heartlessly abusive of this year’s market they they leave Giddey feeling justifiably undervalued, angry, and believing the Bulls treated him more like a victim of opportunity rather than a wanted piece of a franchise that is excited to have him. I’m more worried about that than I am “overpaying” him.

This situation is more nuanced than saying “you don’t like it, find a market.”
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