Warriors exploring S&T for Kuminga

[Nvnervous45]

We're never gonna be able to trade this guy. Teams don't want to give up good players just for the right to pay him $30. Jk killed his own trade value by over-valuing himself and not backing it up with his play.

[ChuckDurn]

Trying to get this back on-track…..

For the capologists on here…. Let’s say Chicago wants to sign Kuminga for $25M, and agrees to a structure that would bring back both Smith ($9M) and Dosunmu ($7.5M) to the Warriors. How much more salary would the Warriors have to send out to make the deal work, and would it hard cap us in a way that would prevent us from presumably signing Horford for the TPMLE and Melton for a minimum deal?

I’d have no real problem sending out TJD and Santos (total of just under $4.5M between them) to make that happen, if other things work…..

Thank you get trying to get this back on-track, but I suspect it will get pushed down.

The BYC value for Kuminga would be half of $25M (assuming this is the starting salary), or $12.5M. If that $25M is the average per year, then it depends on where the contract would start (with raises - ascending, with decreases - descending, flat per year).

So, the Warriors would need to send out at least $16,518,518 in order to avoid being hard capped at the 1st apron, assuming a $12.5M BYC value. The Warriors would need to add at least $4,018,518.

Thanks. Yours, Evan’s, and vvoland’s answers were exactly what I thought was the case, but I wanted to make sure.

Anybody know if the Bulls could bring in $25M of Kuminga’s salary while only sending out the $16.5M of Smith and Dosunmu? (I’m assuming Santos and TJD could easily be routed elsewhere to teams with either a tiny bit of space and/or exceptions, so that it wouldn’t be a bigger financial problem for Chicago to absorb them.)

[statsman]

We're never gonna be able to trade this guy. Teams don't want to give up good players just for the right to pay him $30. Jk killed his own trade value by over-valuing himself and not backing it up with his play.

Maybe we'll get to witness the rare event of having an unsigned RFA idle on opening night. While it seems unlikely, this may be a situation where it could happen. In the case of the Bulls and Giddey, I'm pretty certain they'll have it worked long before opening night. The Warriors and Kuminga? No idea.

[EvanZ]

We're never gonna be able to trade this guy. Teams don't want to give up good players just for the right to pay him $30. Jk killed his own trade value by over-valuing himself and not backing it up with his play.

It’s not quite the same thing but this is almost like prisoner’s dilemma type of situation.

[statsman]

Trying to get this back on-track…..

For the capologists on here…. Let’s say Chicago wants to sign Kuminga for $25M, and agrees to a structure that would bring back both Smith ($9M) and Dosunmu ($7.5M) to the Warriors. How much more salary would the Warriors have to send out to make the deal work, and would it hard cap us in a way that would prevent us from presumably signing Horford for the TPMLE and Melton for a minimum deal?

I’d have no real problem sending out TJD and Santos (total of just under $4.5M between them) to make that happen, if other things work…..

Thank you get trying to get this back on-track, but I suspect it will get pushed down.

The BYC value for Kuminga would be half of $25M (assuming this is the starting salary), or $12.5M. If that $25M is the average per year, then it depends on where the contract would start (with raises - ascending, with decreases - descending, flat per year).

So, the Warriors would need to send out at least $16,518,518 in order to avoid being hard capped at the 1st apron, assuming a $12.5M BYC value. The Warriors would need to add at least $4,018,518.

Thanks. Yours, Evan’s, and vvoland’s answers were exactly what I thought was the case, but I wanted to make sure.

Anybody know if the Bulls could bring in $25M of Kuminga’s salary while only sending out the $16.5M of Smith and Dosunmu? (I’m assuming Santos and TJD could easily be routed elsewhere to teams with either a tiny bit of space and/or exceptions, so that it wouldn’t be a bigger financial problem for Chicago to absorb them.)

I think the Bulls get close if Kuminga starts at $25M. If it were a 3/75 contract with 5% raises, the starting amount would be $23.81M, which I believe puts it right there as being acceptable. Adding more salary from the Warriors makes it harder for the Bulls to match in your above example.

[ChuckDurn]

We're never gonna be able to trade this guy. Teams don't want to give up good players just for the right to pay him $30. Jk killed his own trade value by over-valuing himself and not backing it up with his play.

It’s not quite the same thing but this is almost like prisoner’s dilemma type of situation.

Yep. Pretty fair analogy.

I really wonder what the highest AAV that anybody has “offered” Kuminga has been……. Realizing that almost any of them would require the Warriors to participate in a sign-and-trade (or the team to find other ways to create space), so it might just be a soft offer anyway. I wonder if anybody has actually talked about anything over about $20M with him.

[Onus]

I don't disagree with that. I also agree that 3pt shooting is more valuable in today's NBA than rim finishing. But JK is also a far better defender, at least, on ball, so I don't think the shooting discrepancy is the only difference. Again, I'm not saying they're the same player, but are comparable, and, probably, will get paid similar amounts over their next contract. My only point was about Naz's contract being called 'good value' and while I'm seeing half the board think that $25M/yr for JK is asinine. That's before you get to age, which, for most teams, is a big plus.

Who called Naz good value? I wouldn't want to pay him that. He's like a slightly better Post just because he has more experience than Post.

Sure, but we're not talking about your opinion. We're talking about what the league thinks. Most people I heard speak on that deal (Lowe, Simmons, Athletic crew) seem to think it's an ok deal, some think it's 'good value', but I haven't heard anyone say it was an overpay, or anything like that.

You’re arguing someone else’s pov while I’m arguing mine. You think naz is good value?

[BayAreaDub]

The kid has no market no team is interested in him at the price he wants.

Hope MDJ/Lacob just take the f’n L and S&T him for a serviceable bench guy (and 2nd round pick if they’re lucky). Better for the team overall to bring in someone like Royce, Grayson, Ayo, etc than to have Kuminga on this team period.

How did they expect to get a premium for him (young player + 1st round pick reported I believe) when he didn’t even get playing time in the playoffs and was jerked around all season by Kerr?

Especially since they don’t value him at the $30/yr he wants. I’m afraid this is a Lacob obsession similar to the Wiseman pick and he doesn’t want to look like a fool so he’s vetoing things.

[xdrta+]

Anybody know if the Bulls could bring in $25M of Kuminga’s salary while only sending out the $16.5M of Smith and Dosunmu?

A team can bring back their outgoing salary, plus up to $8,527,000. Using this exception (expanded trade exception) hard-caps a team, but the Bulls are already hard-capped--with their situation it shouldn't be a problem for them.

[Chris Porter's Hair]

The kid has no market no team is interested in him at the price he wants.

Hope MDJ/Lacob just take the f’n L and S&T him for a serviceable bench guy (and 2nd round pick if they’re lucky). Better for the team overall to bring in someone like Royce, Grayson, Ayo, etc than to have Kuminga on this team period.

How did they expect to get a premium for him (young player + 1st round pick reported I believe) when he didn’t even get playing time in the playoffs and was jerked around all season by Kerr?

Especially since they don’t value him at the $30/yr he wants. I’m afraid this is a Lacob obsession similar to the Wiseman pick and he doesn’t want to look like a fool so he’s vetoing things.

There's probably a few things in there I don't agree with. But right up front, "They should just sign and trade him" is fundamentally flawed if literally nobody is willing to pay him a contract he's willing to sign.

I don't know what he thinks his end game is here. Does he think we'll eventually fold and pay him $30m+?

[statsman]

I don't know what he thinks his end game is here. Does he think we'll eventually fold and pay him $30m+?

An unsigned Kuminga on opening night will probably be lawyer-ed up to do battle in court. That may not be sarcasm.

[whatisacenter]

The kid has no market no team is interested in him at the price he wants.

Hope MDJ/Lacob just take the f’n L and S&T him for a serviceable bench guy (and 2nd round pick if they’re lucky). Better for the team overall to bring in someone like Royce, Grayson, Ayo, etc than to have Kuminga on this team period.

How did they expect to get a premium for him (young player + 1st round pick reported I believe) when he didn’t even get playing time in the playoffs and was jerked around all season by Kerr?

Especially since they don’t value him at the $30/yr he wants. I’m afraid this is a Lacob obsession similar to the Wiseman pick and he doesn’t want to look like a fool so he’s vetoing things.

There's probably a few things in there I don't agree with. But right up front, "They should just sign and trade him" is fundamentally flawed if literally nobody is willing to pay him a contract he's willing to sign.

I don't know what he thinks his end game is here. Does he think we'll eventually fold and pay him $30m+?

It's restricted free agency....no team has offered any of the RFA's a contract.

I don't know what he thinks his end game is here. Does he think we'll eventually fold and pay him $30m+?

An unsigned Kuminga on opening night will probably be lawyer-ed up to do battle in court. That may not be sarcasm.

Why are you suggesting this? There is no chance of this happening.

[Crazy-Canuck]

The kid has no market no team is interested in him at the price he wants.

Hope MDJ/Lacob just take the f’n L and S&T him for a serviceable bench guy (and 2nd round pick if they’re lucky). Better for the team overall to bring in someone like Royce, Grayson, Ayo, etc than to have Kuminga on this team period.

How did they expect to get a premium for him (young player + 1st round pick reported I believe) when he didn’t even get playing time in the playoffs and was jerked around all season by Kerr?

Especially since they don’t value him at the $30/yr he wants. I’m afraid this is a Lacob obsession similar to the Wiseman pick and he doesn’t want to look like a fool so he’s vetoing things.

There's probably a few things in there I don't agree with. But right up front, "They should just sign and trade him" is fundamentally flawed if literally nobody is willing to pay him a contract he's willing to sign.

I don't know what he thinks his end game is here. Does he think we'll eventually fold and pay him $30m+?

It's restricted free agency....no team has offered any of the RFA's a .

It's also a bad crop of free agents.

We have a suspected pedophile.
A player who had a stretch of 20 games on his 4 th team in 4 years.
A small one way scoring guard in a time where that archtype has no value.
A player with a million dollar body with pennies for a brain.

[Chris Porter's Hair]

I don't know what he thinks his end game is here. Does he think we'll eventually fold and pay him $30m+?

An unsigned Kuminga on opening night will probably be lawyer-ed up to do battle in court. That may not be sarcasm.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but against who? The Warriors made him a qualifying offer; he can accept it any time he wants. We surely aren't obligated to offer him more. The Utah Jazz aren't obligated to offer him more. Neither are the Spurs, Wizards, or Celtics. I guess he could try to claim some sort of price fixing collusion somethingorother, and go after the league. He could try to sue his own players union or something maybe for agreeing to the CBA, but I can't imagine that ends well for him. His agent for getting him into this mess?

I genuinely don't know how this plays out. It seems clear to me he wants more than anyone is going to pay him. That's probably really frustrating, but I don't know what he thinks is going to change that situation. If he tells the Warriors, "I'm worth $30m!", they really can and should say, "You're worth what the market will bear. Get any team to offer you $30m, and we'll decide whether to match it or not. That's how it works." I'm sure the Warriors have a number above the qualifying offer they'd be willing to pay, and I'd think it would be in his best interests to explore what that is. Because there is probably nobody else in the league that even could pay him whatever that number is.

Quite a mess.

[vvoland]

Who called Naz good value? I wouldn't want to pay him that. He's like a slightly better Post just because he has more experience than Post.

Sure, but we're not talking about your opinion. We're talking about what the league thinks. Most people I heard speak on that deal (Lowe, Simmons, Athletic crew) seem to think it's an ok deal, some think it's 'good value', but I haven't heard anyone say it was an overpay, or anything like that.

You’re arguing someone else’s pov while I’m arguing mine. You think naz is good value?

I do. Especially for Minny. Particularly after the kat trade and keeping Rudy.

I don't think it's great value, I think it's market value, which, in a rising cap environment, means it'll maintain value, barring regression or injury.

He's a particularly good fit on winning teams as his versatility to play small ball center is particularly valuable to contenders.

Coincidentally, I think JK is in desperate need of someone like Reid and it's a shame JK's injury happened before QP found his way up from Santa Cruz. Btw, I agree that post can be ~70% of naz next year.

[Old_Blue]

I don't know what he thinks his end game is here. Does he think we'll eventually fold and pay him $30m+?

An unsigned Kuminga on opening night will probably be lawyer-ed up to do battle in court. That may not be sarcasm.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but against who? The Warriors made him a qualifying offer; he can accept it any time he wants. We surely aren't obligated to offer him more. The Utah Jazz aren't obligated to offer him more. Neither are the Spurs, Wizards, or Celtics. I guess he could try to claim some sort of price fixing collusion somethingorother, and go after the league. He could try to sue his own players union or something maybe for agreeing to the CBA, but I can't imagine that ends well for him. His agent for getting him into this mess?

I genuinely don't know how this plays out. It seems clear to me he wants more than anyone is going to pay him. That's probably really frustrating, but I don't know what he thinks is going to change that situation. If he tells the Warriors, "I'm worth $30m!", they really can and should say, "You're worth what the market will bear. Get any team to offer you $30m, and we'll decide whether to match it or not. That's how it works." I'm sure the Warriors have a number above the qualifying offer they'd be willing to pay, and I'd think it would be in his best interests to explore what that is. Because there is probably nobody else in the league that even could pay him whatever that number is.

Quite a mess.

Bingo. Nobody else has a legal obligation to mitigate on behalf of Kuminga. Once he rejected the 5 year /$150 million offer, the Dubs weren't obligated to re-offer those same terms or anywhere near those terms. If he wants to bring suit against his own agent, then I'd say "Good luck with that." That's a losing he said / she said story that would only result in Kuminga being deemed a toxic asset by every other agent. He's dug himself a pit. The Nets were the only cavalry that could have come to Kuminga's rescue. And, they seem indifferent to his plight. The smartest move at this point is to accept the qualifying offer, play hard, pray he doesn't get hurt and become an unrestricted free agent next summer.

[azwfan]

An unsigned Kuminga on opening night will probably be lawyer-ed up to do battle in court. That may not be sarcasm.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but against who? The Warriors made him a qualifying offer; he can accept it any time he wants. We surely aren't obligated to offer him more. The Utah Jazz aren't obligated to offer him more. Neither are the Spurs, Wizards, or Celtics. I guess he could try to claim some sort of price fixing collusion somethingorother, and go after the league. He could try to sue his own players union or something maybe for agreeing to the CBA, but I can't imagine that ends well for him. His agent for getting him into this mess?

I genuinely don't know how this plays out. It seems clear to me he wants more than anyone is going to pay him. That's probably really frustrating, but I don't know what he thinks is going to change that situation. If he tells the Warriors, "I'm worth $30m!", they really can and should say, "You're worth what the market will bear. Get any team to offer you $30m, and we'll decide whether to match it or not. That's how it works." I'm sure the Warriors have a number above the qualifying offer they'd be willing to pay, and I'd think it would be in his best interests to explore what that is. Because there is probably nobody else in the league that even could pay him whatever that number is.

Quite a mess.

Bingo. Nobody else has a legal obligation to mitigate on behalf of Kuminga. Once he rejected the 5 year /$150 million offer, the Dubs weren't obligated to re-offer those same terms or anywhere near those terms. If he wants to bring suit against his own agent, then I'd say "Good luck with that." That's a losing he said / she said story that would only result in Kuminga being deemed a toxic asset by every other agent. He's dug himself a pit. The Nets were the only cavalry that could have come to Kuminga's rescue. And, they seem indifferent to his plight. The smartest move at this point is to accept the qualifying offer, play hard, pray he doesn't get hurt and become an unrestricted free agent next summer.

I doubt Kerr plays him at all if he accepts the QO. Kerr may get organizational pressure to play him if he signs a trade-able contract.

[Old_Blue]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but against who? The Warriors made him a qualifying offer; he can accept it any time he wants. We surely aren't obligated to offer him more. The Utah Jazz aren't obligated to offer him more. Neither are the Spurs, Wizards, or Celtics. I guess he could try to claim some sort of price fixing collusion somethingorother, and go after the league. He could try to sue his own players union or something maybe for agreeing to the CBA, but I can't imagine that ends well for him. His agent for getting him into this mess?

I genuinely don't know how this plays out. It seems clear to me he wants more than anyone is going to pay him. That's probably really frustrating, but I don't know what he thinks is going to change that situation. If he tells the Warriors, "I'm worth $30m!", they really can and should say, "You're worth what the market will bear. Get any team to offer you $30m, and we'll decide whether to match it or not. That's how it works." I'm sure the Warriors have a number above the qualifying offer they'd be willing to pay, and I'd think it would be in his best interests to explore what that is. Because there is probably nobody else in the league that even could pay him whatever that number is.

Quite a mess.

Bingo. Nobody else has a legal obligation to mitigate on behalf of Kuminga. Once he rejected the 5 year /$150 million offer, the Dubs weren't obligated to re-offer those same terms or anywhere near those terms. If he wants to bring suit against his own agent, then I'd say "Good luck with that." That's a losing he said / she said story that would only result in Kuminga being deemed a toxic asset by every other agent. He's dug himself a pit. The Nets were the only cavalry that could have come to Kuminga's rescue. And, they seem indifferent to his plight. The smartest move at this point is to accept the qualifying offer, play hard, pray he doesn't get hurt and become an unrestricted free agent next summer.

I doubt Kerr plays him at all if he accepts the QO. Kerr may get organizational pressure to play him if he signs a trade-able contract.

If the club wanted serious issues with the players' union, then not playing Kuminga at all after he accepted the QO would be a very good way to go about it. If he signs the QO, you treat him fairly, hope that he redeems some of his value and be done with it. Nastiness need not be part of the equation.

[statsman]

If the club wanted serious issues with the players' union, then not playing Kuminga at all after he accepted the QO would be a very good way to go about it. If he signs the QO, you treat him fairly, hope that he redeems some of his value and be done with it. Nastiness need not be part of the equation.

Agreed. And while Kuminga would be an unrestricted free agent next offseason if he played on the QO this season, the Warriors would still own his full Bird rights.

They could easily bring him back, or they could facilitate a S&T (like they did with Klay) should the opportunity arise. Don't burn that bridge if you don't have to.

[statsman]

Something I mentioned in the past few days was answered by someone else. Once the season starts, the Warriors and Kuminga cannot do a S&T. This must occur before the first game of the regular season.

After the season starts, the three options are: (1) get an offer sheet from some other team; (2) sign a new deal with the Warriors; or (3) remain unsigned. A S&T would no longer be an option. Same goes for the qualifying offer, which generally expires on October 1st (If agreed to by the team and the player, the QO can be extended out as far as March 1st).

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap17.htm#Q92

The part about a S&T not being allowed after the season starts is spelled out on the 6th bullet in the second paragraph. I assume this is still true for the 2023 CBA. Larry Coon did not update the Salary Cap FAQ for the 2023 CBA. In fact, he stated he is no longer keeping the information up to date. Pity.