Shams: Raps acquire Ingram for Brown + Olynyk + IND 1st

[canada_dry]

So we should just to get fat guys? Cool.

There was a turning point with Hardcore Fenton Mun. Not sure what happened but he just refuses to have positive discourse. He’s just trying to get a rise out of people.

I'm positive on some things, but a realist on others. Like, what kind of ankle sprain keeps you out a year. Is it the kind that's going to need surgery?

No man. It's the kind where a team that's trying to secure the best possible draft pick tells him don't worry about rushing back or returning this year.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

[canada_dry]

When Ingram plays, he's one of the better all-around players in the league. He's always in the 21-25 pt, 5-6 ast, 5-6 reb range. The other parts of his game don't get enough credit, especially the passing. Even his D is fine.

Last 6 seasons:

24/6/4, 46/39/85
24/5/5, 46/38/88
23/6/5, 46/33/83
25/6/6, 48/39/88
21/6/5, 49/36/80
22/6/5, 47/37/86

He's been remarkably consistent from a production/shooting standpoint since his 4th year in the league.

Reading parts of this thread and there appears to be some revisionist thoughts on BI happening here. A poll on this Board in Jan 2025 showed only 18% wanted BI to join the Raptors, losing to always injured Zion and "neither." So now that he's here, he's seemingly our savior?

Siakam put up similar numbers as BI over this period and he was traded away because we didn't want to pay him. Yeah, he's a few years older but given BI's inclination to be injured, it's not clear who will last longer. And as for BI being one of the better all around players, I'd say Siakam is even better, especially if you include defense as part of "all around." On offense alone, Siakam has also been #1 option on a 53-win team (TOR 2020), #2 option on a Championship team (TOR 2019) and the #1 scorer on a NBA Finals team (IND 2025). He's a well proven winner.

Ingram? Well... he's made the playoffs twice in 9 years, losing in 1st round both times. His career PPG average is an unspectacular 19.5 points. To be sure he can be quite good when not injured, but he'd have to almost be an MIP candidate (he won MIP in 2020) to meet the expectation bar some have set here... all for someone many didn't want to be traded here in the first place. He has some hefty shoes to fill to replace Siakam.

I think if you do the poll again most here would still want zion over ingram just based off upside... also noone knew Ingram would come at such a low trade cost.

and the ones who chose neither are the ones who aren't high on the Ingram deal at all.

I don't think that means people wouldn't want ingram at all just because they'd pick ZION over him... and i think you're seeing that now. I don't see the contradiction.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

There was a turning point with Hardcore Fenton Mun. Not sure what happened but he just refuses to have positive discourse. He’s just trying to get a rise out of people.

I'm positive on some things, but a realist on others. Like, what kind of ankle sprain keeps you out a year. Is it the kind that's going to need surgery?

No man. It's the kind where a team that's trying to secure the best possible draft pick tells him don't worry about rushing back or returning this year.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

Nah, that was never true. He was getting platelet shots in his foot, in April...for an ankle injury. He's JUST getting back to contact.

[Tripod]

I find it bizarre that anyone would complain about the Ingram trade. Super low risk move with potentially high high reward. This is the type of move this organization needs to make. Not only that, but he is a damn good basketball player & is really fun to watch when he is cooking.

This deal was a no brainer. Even if he ends up injured the whole time, it was still worth the risk.

I'm generally not opposed of this trade but for devil's advocate, I'll take the opposing side in this case which involves looking at the bigger picture.

It's not the value of the trade that's at issue, rather it's the context/timing of the trade. This will be BI's 10th season, a win-now player for a team whose highest reasonable expectation is 6th place. Adding BI doesn't create a path to a championship, so why do the trade? It's low risk for what?

You're better off using trade assets for more picks or get younger players with more potential to grow with Barnes, CMB, etc., to begin creation of a reasonable path towards a future Championship. As we stand, with or without BI, we're not there. 6th place isn't the high reward we're after.

This isn't complicated.

Is having another Dick or JKW level prospect better than taking a chance on getting a possible top 20 scorer? That's what we did.

Instead of rolling the dice on an expected 20-30 pick(at the time of the trade) we are rolling the dice at a proven 22+scorer and his health.

27 isn't old. Why does everyone thing every guy has to be the exact same ages? We traded for Ibaka at 28. Gasol at 35. Etc...

This was a step to help get to that 45+win total vs having another 20 year old a year from now. ALL of this roster is still in flux. We are just acquiring talent and will consolidate at some point. It likely will take multiple deals along the way.

You rarely go from missing the playoffs to contender in 1 season. There are steps along the way. Adding BI is adding a step. Enjoy the walk.

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

I find it bizarre that anyone would complain about the Ingram trade. Super low risk move with potentially high high reward. This is the type of move this organization needs to make. Not only that, but he is a damn good basketball player & is really fun to watch when he is cooking.

This deal was a no brainer. Even if he ends up injured the whole time, it was still worth the risk.

I'm generally not opposed of this trade but for devil's advocate, I'll take the opposing side in this case which involves looking at the bigger picture.

It's not the value of the trade that's at issue, rather it's the context/timing of the trade. This will be BI's 10th season, a win-now player for a team whose highest reasonable expectation is 6th place. Adding BI doesn't create a path to a championship, so why do the trade? It's low risk for what?

You're better off using trade assets for more picks or get younger players with more potential to grow with Barnes, CMB, etc., to begin creation of a reasonable path towards a future Championship. As we stand, with or without BI, we're not there. 6th place isn't the high reward we're after.

This isn't complicated.

Is having another Dick or JKW level prospect better than taking a chance on getting a possible top 20 scorer? That's what we did.

Instead of rolling the dice on an expected 20-30 pick(at the time of the trade) we are rolling the dice at a proven 22+scorer and his health.

27 isn't old. Why does everyone thing every guy has to be the exact same ages? We traded for Ibaka at 28. Gasol at 35. Etc...

This was a step to help get to that 45+win total vs having another 20 year old a year from now. ALL of this roster is still in flux. We are just acquiring talent and will consolidate at some point. It likely will take multiple deals along the way.

You rarely go from missing the playoffs to contender in 1 season. There are steps along the way. Adding BI is adding a step. Enjoy the walk.

BI's more like Aleksej Pokusevski, in other words he's extremely low body fat and muscle. That also means more deep bone bruises and random long term injuries. They aren't built to last.

[Tripod]

I'm generally not opposed of this trade but for devil's advocate, I'll take the opposing side in this case which involves looking at the bigger picture.

It's not the value of the trade that's at issue, rather it's the context/timing of the trade. This will be BI's 10th season, a win-now player for a team whose highest reasonable expectation is 6th place. Adding BI doesn't create a path to a championship, so why do the trade? It's low risk for what?

You're better off using trade assets for more picks or get younger players with more potential to grow with Barnes, CMB, etc., to begin creation of a reasonable path towards a future Championship. As we stand, with or without BI, we're not there. 6th place isn't the high reward we're after.

This isn't complicated.

Is having another Dick or JKW level prospect better than taking a chance on getting a possible top 20 scorer? That's what we did.

Instead of rolling the dice on an expected 20-30 pick(at the time of the trade) we are rolling the dice at a proven 22+scorer and his health.

27 isn't old. Why does everyone thing every guy has to be the exact same ages? We traded for Ibaka at 28. Gasol at 35. Etc...

This was a step to help get to that 45+win total vs having another 20 year old a year from now. ALL of this roster is still in flux. We are just acquiring talent and will consolidate at some point. It likely will take multiple deals along the way.

You rarely go from missing the playoffs to contender in 1 season. There are steps along the way. Adding BI is adding a step. Enjoy the walk.

BI's more like Aleksej Pokusevski, in other words he's extremely low body fat and muscle. That also means more deep bone bruises and random long term injuries. They aren't built to last.

Well good job we didn't sign him long term, right?

[DreamTeam09]

This isn't complicated.

Is having another Dick or JKW level prospect better than taking a chance on getting a possible top 20 scorer? That's what we did.

Instead of rolling the dice on an expected 20-30 pick(at the time of the trade) we are rolling the dice at a proven 22+scorer and his health.

27 isn't old. Why does everyone thing every guy has to be the exact same ages? We traded for Ibaka at 28. Gasol at 35. Etc...

This was a step to help get to that 45+win total vs having another 20 year old a year from now. ALL of this roster is still in flux. We are just acquiring talent and will consolidate at some point. It likely will take multiple deals along the way.

You rarely go from missing the playoffs to contender in 1 season. There are steps along the way. Adding BI is adding a step. Enjoy the walk.

BI's more like Aleksej Pokusevski, in other words he's extremely low body fat and muscle. That also means more deep bone bruises and random long term injuries. They aren't built to last.

Well good job we didn't sign him long term, right?

Durant is 36 and still hopping

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

BI's more like Aleksej Pokusevski, in other words he's extremely low body fat and muscle. That also means more deep bone bruises and random long term injuries. They aren't built to last.

Well good job we didn't sign him long term, right?

Durant is 36 and still hopping

BI's 197lbs last I heard, KD's in the 240's. That a huge diff. Neither is durable though, tbh.

[DreamTeam09]

Well good job we didn't sign him long term, right?

Durant is 36 and still hopping

BI's 197lbs last I heard, KD's in the 240's. That a huge diff. Neither is durable though, tbh.

He's definitely not 240, that doesn't even make sense.
Durant weighed in at 225 at the Olympics.
I'm sure BI is 200-205, I expect BI to play for a long time, the scorers usually do because they play an easy game. You're not stressing yourself out taking pull up jumpers

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

Durant is 36 and still hopping

BI's 197lbs last I heard, KD's in the 240's. That a huge diff. Neither is durable though, tbh.

He's definitely not 240, that doesn't even make sense.
Durant weighed in at 225 at the Olympics.
I'm sure BI is 200-205, I expect BI to play for a long time, the scorers usually do because they play an easy game. You're not stressing yourself out taking pull up jumpers

The deep vein thrombosis is a red flag for me, personally. Well, him...but you get it.

[YogurtProducer]

The cap makes it an issue. Loading up on more crappy contracts doesn't help.

The big issue many podcasters latch onto with the Raps, and some here have is the size of the contracts given out to Raptors players. Let's compare the contracts of the Raps big 5 to contracts for the teams considered to be the top 3 in the East this year (Cavs, Knicks & Magic):

Raps:
- Barnes ($38.6M, $41.8M, $44.8M, $47.9M, $51M)
- Ingram ($38.1M, $40M, $41.9M PO)
- IQ ($32.5M flat for 4 years)
- RJ ($27.7M, $29.6M)
- Yak ($19.5M, $19.5M, $27.3M, $29.5M, $27.3M - only $5M guaranteed but could increase if plays certain minutes)

Cavs:
- Mobley ($46.4M, $50.1M, $53.8M, $57.5M, $61.2M)
- Mitchell ($46.4M, $50.1M, $53.8M, $57.5M, $61.2M)
- Garland ($39.4M, $42.1M, $44.9M)
- Hunter ($23.3M, $24.9M)
- Allen ($20M, $28M, $30.2M, $32.5M)

Magic:
- Banchero ($15.3M, $41.4M, $44.7M, $48M, $51.3M, $54.6 PO)
- Wagner ($38.6M, $41.8M, $44.8M, $47.9M, $51M)
- Bane ($36.7M, $39.4M, $42.2M, $44.9M)
- Suggs ($35M, $32.4M, $29.6M, $26.8M, $26.7M)
- WCJ ($10.9M, $18.1M, $19.6M, $21M TO)

Knicks:
- Towns ($53.1M, $57.1M, $61M PO)
- OG ($39.6M, $42.5M, $45.4M, $48.4M PO)
- Brunson ($35M, $37.8, $40.5M, $43.3M PO)
- Bridges ($24.9M)
- Hart ($19.5M, $20.9M, $22.4M TO)

Considering BI & RJs contracts could be done in a couple of seasons, Raps situation is looking better financially than the top 3 teams in the East.

All those teams won last year. They don't run these number on a 36 win team.

All those teams have significantly more salary tied up to, so doesnt that make sense?

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

The big issue many podcasters latch onto with the Raps, and some here have is the size of the contracts given out to Raptors players. Let's compare the contracts of the Raps big 5 to contracts for the teams considered to be the top 3 in the East this year (Cavs, Knicks & Magic):

Raps:
- Barnes ($38.6M, $41.8M, $44.8M, $47.9M, $51M)
- Ingram ($38.1M, $40M, $41.9M PO)
- IQ ($32.5M flat for 4 years)
- RJ ($27.7M, $29.6M)
- Yak ($19.5M, $19.5M, $27.3M, $29.5M, $27.3M - only $5M guaranteed but could increase if plays certain minutes)

Cavs:
- Mobley ($46.4M, $50.1M, $53.8M, $57.5M, $61.2M)
- Mitchell ($46.4M, $50.1M, $53.8M, $57.5M, $61.2M)
- Garland ($39.4M, $42.1M, $44.9M)
- Hunter ($23.3M, $24.9M)
- Allen ($20M, $28M, $30.2M, $32.5M)

Magic:
- Banchero ($15.3M, $41.4M, $44.7M, $48M, $51.3M, $54.6 PO)
- Wagner ($38.6M, $41.8M, $44.8M, $47.9M, $51M)
- Bane ($36.7M, $39.4M, $42.2M, $44.9M)
- Suggs ($35M, $32.4M, $29.6M, $26.8M, $26.7M)
- WCJ ($10.9M, $18.1M, $19.6M, $21M TO)

Knicks:
- Towns ($53.1M, $57.1M, $61M PO)
- OG ($39.6M, $42.5M, $45.4M, $48.4M PO)
- Brunson ($35M, $37.8, $40.5M, $43.3M PO)
- Bridges ($24.9M)
- Hart ($19.5M, $20.9M, $22.4M TO)

Considering BI & RJs contracts could be done in a couple of seasons, Raps situation is looking better financially than the top 3 teams in the East.

All those teams won last year. They don't run these number on a 36 win team.

All those teams have significantly more salary tied up to, so doesnt that make sense?

We're paying like we're a top 8 team this year (221M). So like Magic are below(198M), rest are above.

36W's would put us middle(ish) of the pack. So, pay for 8th, get 15th or something like that.

[WiggOuts]

Yes because you’re ignoring the times it could have been rigged in the favour of the NBA as a business. You also ignore the random times that teams have jumped up or won the lottery that it didn’t suit your narrative. The idea that it’s rigged is literally the example of selectively choosing data to reinforce your own bias.

Or there are times where they send certain player to certain markets to help the overall well being of the business. There are many times where that convenience factor doesn't exist and there isn't any real need/opportunity to do so.

I think there were times where they genuinely didn't rig things and that ended up creating situations that they didn't want. For example who won the lottery the year Iverson was the #1 pick

Just to be clear, you think the NBA has never rigged a draft ever right?

I’ve seen zero evidence that the NBA rigged the draft, especially since moving to the lottery balls system. The NBA rigging the draft to the benefit of some teams over others is not only hard to do, but it’s completely nonsensical for all 30 teams to go along with and for the NBA to randomly rig some drafts but not others. There’s literally video evidence of the process on YouTube and representatives from teams, the media, audit firm, lottery company all in attendance that theres really no way to rig it. And I’ve never seen actual evidence to support the claim that it’s rigged outside of just pointing out coincidences

Do you think that if they were rigging something of this nature that they would leave evidence available for casual fans to see? Thats kind of amateur and sounds crazy don't you think? If you see the process it would be so easy for them to dictate what is said or even just predetermine everything. It really wouldn't be that hard for a billion dollar corporation to influence this type of process, im sure theyve done much worse

Just because you haven't seen evidence doesn't mean anything. Fans like us would NEVER have an opportunity to be able to witness something. There would need to be a whistle blower of some sort. The ultimate factor here and I've said it already is that this is a business. There is no rule that these things need to be fair for fans. They also have revenue sharing that ensure each team atleast meets a base line in profits, which is millions and millions.

[Mikistan]

45 percent of people in that country think the election had no interference too right?

[tsherkin]

So, this has strayed rather far from the topic, so we should definitely get back to that if we're going to be using this thread instead of the other Ingram thread.

[Psubs]

Or there are times where they send certain player to certain markets to help the overall well being of the business. There are many times where that convenience factor doesn't exist and there isn't any real need/opportunity to do so.

I think there were times where they genuinely didn't rig things and that ended up creating situations that they didn't want. For example who won the lottery the year Iverson was the #1 pick

Just to be clear, you think the NBA has never rigged a draft ever right?

I’ve seen zero evidence that the NBA rigged the draft, especially since moving to the lottery balls system. The NBA rigging the draft to the benefit of some teams over others is not only hard to do, but it’s completely nonsensical for all 30 teams to go along with and for the NBA to randomly rig some drafts but not others. There’s literally video evidence of the process on YouTube and representatives from teams, the media, audit firm, lottery company all in attendance that theres really no way to rig it. And I’ve never seen actual evidence to support the claim that it’s rigged outside of just pointing out coincidences

Do you think that if they were rigging something of this nature that they would leave evidence available for casual fans to see? Thats kind of amateur and sounds crazy don't you think? If you see the process it would be so easy for them to dictate what is said or even just predetermine everything. It really wouldn't be that hard for a billion dollar corporation to influence this type of process, im sure theyve done much worse

Just because you haven't seen evidence doesn't mean anything. Fans like us would NEVER have an opportunity to be able to witness something. There would need to be a whistle blower of some sort. The ultimate factor here and I've said it already is that this is a business. There is no rule that these things need to be fair for fans. They also have revenue sharing that ensure each team atleast meets a base line in profits, which is millions and millions.

In addition to revenue sharing, each teams valuation increases every year.

Which are the rigged drafts?

2003 Lebron to Cle
2008 Derrick Rose to Chi
2011 Kyrie Irving to Cle
2012 AD to NO for trading CP3 to the Clippers
2013 Anthony Bennett to Cle
2014 Andrew Wiggins to Cle (since they effed up 2013)
2023 Victor Wembanyama to SA (keep that market from dying and Pops from retiring)
2025 Cooper Flagg to Dal for trading Luka to LA

[lolwut]

I’ve seen zero evidence that the NBA rigged the draft, especially since moving to the lottery balls system. The NBA rigging the draft to the benefit of some teams over others is not only hard to do, but it’s completely nonsensical for all 30 teams to go along with and for the NBA to randomly rig some drafts but not others. There’s literally video evidence of the process on YouTube and representatives from teams, the media, audit firm, lottery company all in attendance that theres really no way to rig it. And I’ve never seen actual evidence to support the claim that it’s rigged outside of just pointing out coincidences

Do you think that if they were rigging something of this nature that they would leave evidence available for casual fans to see? Thats kind of amateur and sounds crazy don't you think? If you see the process it would be so easy for them to dictate what is said or even just predetermine everything. It really wouldn't be that hard for a billion dollar corporation to influence this type of process, im sure theyve done much worse

Just because you haven't seen evidence doesn't mean anything. Fans like us would NEVER have an opportunity to be able to witness something. There would need to be a whistle blower of some sort. The ultimate factor here and I've said it already is that this is a business. There is no rule that these things need to be fair for fans. They also have revenue sharing that ensure each team atleast meets a base line in profits, which is millions and millions.

In addition to revenue sharing, each teams valuation increases every year.

Which are the rigged drafts?

2003 Lebron to Cle
2008 Derrick Rose to Chi
2011 Kyrie Irving to Cle
2012 AD to NO for trading CP3 to the Clippers
2013 Anthony Bennett to Cle
2014 Andrew Wiggins to Cle (since they effed up 2013)
2023 Victor Wembanyama to SA (keep that market from dying and Pops from retiring)
2025 Cooper Flagg to Dal for trading Luka to LA

Maybe 2006 when BC took over the Raptors and immediately got the 1st overall pick.

[HumbleRen]

Would Ingram be the #1 scorer on the Pacers?

Yes but Haliburton would still be the #1 option.

#1 Scorer on a team that just went to the NBA Finals seems pretty good to me for the price we paid.

Pacers are a very unique team. That probably won’t be replicated again in the near future.

A lot of players that aren’t #1 scorers on contenders could of been one on that team.

[Los_29]

Yes but Haliburton would still be the #1 option.

#1 Scorer on a team that just went to the NBA Finals seems pretty good to me for the price we paid.

Pacers are a very unique team. That probably won’t be replicated again in the near future.

A lot of players that aren’t #1 scorers on contenders could of been one on that team.

Depth is extremely important. Boston won on depth, Pacers and OKC were teams that had tremendous depth. That’s the direction the NBA is going. Gone are the days of super teams. If you don’t have a great 8 man rotation you’re in trouble.

[Tripod]

All those teams won last year. They don't run these number on a 36 win team.

All those teams have significantly more salary tied up to, so doesnt that make sense?

We're paying like we're a top 8 team this year (221M). So like Magic are below(198M), rest are above.

36W's would put us middle(ish) of the pack. So, pay for 8th, get 15th or something like that.

Magic are below us only because Paolo is still on his rookie contract.

Reality is, FVV just had a 2 year paying more than BI. OG makes more than BI this season. Siakam makes 7 million more this season.

BI's contract comes with knowing he will miss games. If not, he gets the max and more term....and we pay more to get him.

Also...why a random 36 win season? We could have won that this year if we tried and are adding BI and CMB to the group.