Zeke vs Joe Dumars

[Bad Bart]

This should easily be Zeke, but his reputation seems almost as bad as Laimbeer's at this point.

[Cavsfansince84]

Dumars is an elite second option but I prefer Zeke

I'd actually say he's a semi weak #2 for a title team. Outside of the one finals he wasn't that good or consistent in the playoffs. Sort of ok efficiency on medium volume in the rs. To me he's basically Jamaal Murray with better defense and people talk about Murray being a weak #2 all the time despite having at least 2 great playoff runs. The Pistons had a lot of guys they could rely on in the half court offense.

[GeorgeMarcus]

As overrated as Isiah sometimes gets, I think that he was better than Dumars. As mediocre as Zeke's advanced metrics are, Dumars' are even worse. I think that Joe gets overrated as a defender. He never had a positive DBPM in his career (I mean regular season). For someone who is supposedly an all-time great perimeter defender, that's really horrible. There's also a chance that BPM may not be a good stat (Kobe was a negative on defense for most of his career, too, and both Dumars/Bryant have terrific defensive reputation, all those All-Defensive selections and praise from other players/coaches), but I still believe there's something in it. His DWS are also poor. Definitely some food for thought, so if we assume that Dumars is overrated defensively, Thomas is IMO clearly superior on offense, which makes him the better overall player. Isiah had a few seasons in the mid 80s when he was pretty impressive statistically, definitely more impressive than Dumars' peak numbers.

Thomas was also better in the playoffs.

I really don't think DBPM (or even BPM) is a worthwhile metric

A guy like Rodman was an elite defender with less-than-elite stock numbers, and for that reason put up average DBPM. Significantly less than, say, Hassan Whiteside, who was fundamentally unsound yet good at hounding blocks

I forget how WS/DWS is calculated but I feel like that's also box-generated and generally not a good indicator

I will agree with you on Isiah > Dumars but I think you came down a little harsh on Joe

[GeorgeMarcus]

I feel like RealGM is way too harsh on Zeke

[homecourtloss]

As overrated as Isiah sometimes gets, I think that he was better than Dumars. As mediocre as Zeke's advanced metrics are, Dumars' are even worse. I think that Joe gets overrated as a defender. He never had a positive DBPM in his career (I mean regular season). For someone who is supposedly an all-time great perimeter defender, that's really horrible. There's also a chance that BPM may not be a good stat (Kobe was a negative on defense for most of his career, too, and both Dumars/Bryant have terrific defensive reputation, all those All-Defensive selections and praise from other players/coaches), but I still believe there's something in it. His DWS are also poor. Definitely some food for thought, so if we assume that Dumars is overrated defensively, Thomas is IMO clearly superior on offense, which makes him the better overall player. Isiah had a few seasons in the mid 80s when he was pretty impressive statistically, definitely more impressive than Dumars' peak numbers.

Thomas was also better in the playoffs.

I really don't think DBPM (or even BPM) is a worthwhile metric

A guy like Rodman was an elite defender with less-than-elite stock numbers, and for that reason put up average DBPM. Significantly less than, say, Hassan Whiteside, who was fundamentally unsound yet good at hounding blocks

I forget how WS/DWS is calculated but I feel like that's also box-generated and generally not a good indicator

I will agree with you on Isiah > Dumars but I think you came down a little harsh on Joe

The post you quoted was made in 2015 when there wasn’t the same understanding of such all-in-one stats such as DBPM. It’s interesting to see how discussion has evolved on the PC board over the past 13 years I’ve been here.

[homecourtloss]

Yeah we’re definitely going a little overboard on the Isiah Thomas skepticism. This is Isiah easily.

Agree. think the original skepticism began when people began scrutinizing the inclusion of Isiah alongside Magic, Bird, and Jordan when people spoke of the best players of the ‘80s as was common since I started following basketball in the ‘80s. Since the Pistons won multiple titles and teams that won multiple titles always had at least one dominant ATG player (i.e., Russ, Frazier/Reed, Kareem, Magic, Bird), Isiah was by default part of this discussion of the best players of the decade even if people didn’t really believe he was in that tier. Then there was the success of the Bulls in the ‘90s which then further elevated Isiah because he and Pistons were the last team to beat the Bulls so there had to be some great player that was beating them, which is part of the mythologizing.

When people began getting familiar with concepts such as TS%, they questioned his efficiency and began attributing more credit to the team defense (even though this was also done earlier) and questioned the defensive contributions a player with his archetype could possibly make (i.e., small guards almost always have negative RAPM defensive profiles) and the skepticism went too far because Isiah wasn’t really a bad defender especially relative to size and the usual defensive liabilities his archetype present while also being a playoffs riser.

Still, this is Isiah pretty comfortably. His overall offensive talent is just miles ahead of Dumars although Joe was a fantastic defender. An all-time great on D who sometimes gets omitted from conversations he should be in.

Agree that Isiah’s offensive talent is miles ahead of Dumars’s, but don’t agree with “
Dumars being “all-time great on D.” He was a good man defender who was strong for his size, had good footwork, smart, but not sure if I see all time great. When you did on off for tracking for Jordan, did you do it for other players and saw on-off deltas with and without Dumars? When I tracked some on off stuff in the 1980s between the Bulls and the Pistons, I really didn’t see anything that would suggest that Dumars had any type of sized impact that will put them into the all-time grade category.

[tmorgan]

Classic case of “does more” vs. “does what he does better”.

Isiah had a much larger offensive role as primary ball handler and shot creator for the team, and he was less efficient as a result. Dumars had more energy for defense and took better, easier shots.

Comparing guys in very different roles is always hard.

[GeorgeMarcus]

As overrated as Isiah sometimes gets, I think that he was better than Dumars. As mediocre as Zeke's advanced metrics are, Dumars' are even worse. I think that Joe gets overrated as a defender. He never had a positive DBPM in his career (I mean regular season). For someone who is supposedly an all-time great perimeter defender, that's really horrible. There's also a chance that BPM may not be a good stat (Kobe was a negative on defense for most of his career, too, and both Dumars/Bryant have terrific defensive reputation, all those All-Defensive selections and praise from other players/coaches), but I still believe there's something in it. His DWS are also poor. Definitely some food for thought, so if we assume that Dumars is overrated defensively, Thomas is IMO clearly superior on offense, which makes him the better overall player. Isiah had a few seasons in the mid 80s when he was pretty impressive statistically, definitely more impressive than Dumars' peak numbers.

Thomas was also better in the playoffs.

I really don't think DBPM (or even BPM) is a worthwhile metric

A guy like Rodman was an elite defender with less-than-elite stock numbers, and for that reason put up average DBPM. Significantly less than, say, Hassan Whiteside, who was fundamentally unsound yet good at hounding blocks

I forget how WS/DWS is calculated but I feel like that's also box-generated and generally not a good indicator

I will agree with you on Isiah > Dumars but I think you came down a little harsh on Joe

The post you quoted was made in 2015 when there wasn’t the same understanding of such all-in-one stats such as DBPM. It’s interesting to see how discussion has evolved on the PC board over the past 13 years I’ve been here.

Oh wow I had no ideal lol that sheds some light on things

I haven't seen Quotatious around these parts in a long time