Warriors exploring S&T for Kuminga

[vvoland]

You’re arguing someone else’s pov while I’m arguing mine. You think naz is good value?

I do. Especially for Minny. Particularly after the kat trade and keeping Rudy.

I don't think it's great value, I think it's market value, which, in a rising cap environment, means it'll maintain value, barring regression or injury.

He's a particularly good fit on winning teams as his versatility to play small ball center is particularly valuable to contenders.

Coincidentally, I think JK is in desperate need of someone like Reid and it's a shame JK's injury happened before QP found his way up from Santa Cruz. Btw, I agree that post can be ~70% of naz next year.

I think the contract is bad to neutral. I'm not particularly high on him. Yes he can play some center but he doesn't really do anything centers do on defense like protect the rim, play defense or rebound. The best aspect he brings on defense is that he gives you a big body to put on jokic so rudy can roam. Honestly I'm not sure he's much better than John Collins who is seen as a negative contract at 26M. Obi Toppin at 14M now that's great value.

For JK specifically 25M is probably tradeable. We could probably make it work but would be tough to fill out the roster the way that we would want to. For the rumored trade with Sac I think his starting salary was around 23-24M. But that was the only real offer, so not sure that's enough of a market at that price. I don't see the warriors going above that, the compromise will likely be between 20-25M. But if he doesn't want to be here and makes a big enough issue about not being here maybe we settle for a S&T. I think Ayo and J Smith would be great depth and backup pieces to Melton and Horford. Hard caps us at the 1st apron but whatever.

Curry/Podz/Ayo
Melton/Buddy/Richard
JB/Moody
Dray/Smith/Gui
Horford/Post/TJD


That leaves us about 700k under the 1st apron. Maybe we add Key somewhere down the line.

I don't think JK will get 25. Even 20, in this environment, will be tricky for him. We all knew it 12 months ago, almost regardless of how well he played last year - there would be no money in the market for him. It'll likely still be tradeable at 25M but that discussion was a sidetrack that shouldn't have happened.

I really don't think selling low has the same math as keeping him through the deadline at a contract in the low 20s. Is the devin carter or kispert option really going away in the first 45 games of next season? I doubt it. Barring injury or regression, of course. But same could be said for Kispert and Carter - they could get hurt or suck. Now, if we're getting a guy we're confident would close games for us, let's ship out JK today.

I don't think Ayo or Smith play much, outside of injury. JK, almost certainly, would. Not as much as he'd like but unless we're in another race to escape the play-in, I think JK gets 6th man minutes (25+) this season.

I fully believe in that 23-7 record to end the season and, barring injury, I don't think the dubs are in a fight for the 6th seed. Sure, Curry gets hurt and it's curtains but in virtually any other scenario, I think we're in the top 5, fairly safely. If that's the case, we have plenty of time of figure out if JK is the bench scorer, a starter next to the core 3, an empty calorie scorer for the deadline, or a mistake. I think the chances of getting burned by that last option are the smallest of the bunch.

[vvoland]

not an option if this is not a SnT deal. We are not letting him come back to the locker room with anything higher than QO since there is no 20m market for him. I think he is just so dumb for asking for 20. He might end up playing in China

Do you not believe the Kings want to give him $20M? Or are you simply saying they can't do it without a S&T and that by "market" you are strictly referring to teams with cap space?

I do think the kings are willing to give him 20 but the warriors want compensation.

Do you think we want to give him 20M?

I asked somewhere else if anyone has heard a single word about an actual contract that was offered to JK, either from the dubs or in one of the rumored S&T proposals. I haven't even heard what the dubs are thinking of offering, only the "JK wants 30M+" narrative that, I assume, is something the team is putting out there. But I haven't heard anything about GSW/Chi/Sac/Was/PHX/etc. willing to offer JK $___M. Has anyone heard of a number?

Even the Giddey negotiations have parameters (bulls want to give him 20, he wants 30). That's been pretty well reported. I haven't heard a word about JK getting a single offer.

[statsman]

Kispert's $13.975M this season makes it difficult to avoid being hard capped at the first apron unless Kuminga starts at $27.95M or more, which I'm not sure happens. Adding TJD or Santos to a S&T deal means Kuminga needs to start at $23.51M or more, which gets close to possible.

Grayson Allen makes $16.875M this season, which all but guarantees a hard cap at the first apron or not spending any of the TPMLE (goodbye, Horford).

[vvoland]

Kispert's $13.975M this season makes it difficult to avoid being hard capped at the first apron unless Kuminga starts at $27.95M or more, which I'm not sure happens. Adding TJD or Santos to a S&T deal means Kuminga needs to start at $23.51M or more, which gets close to possible.

Grayson Allen makes $16.875M this season, which all but guarantees a hard cap at the first apron or not spending any of the TPMLE (goodbye, Horford).

Also why it makes a lot more sense for the dubs to take this to Feb and get back the full ~22M in player salary without the hardcaps coming into play.

[ChuckDurn]

Interesting data point here….. take it for what it’s worth.

For the last few years, my next door neighbor has been a guy who had - until recently - worked in an NBA front office. He’s a name a lot of folks on here would recognize.

He’s not with a team in the NBA now…… I bumped into him a couple of hours ago for the first time in a while. I wouldn’t ask him questions while he was in the league, because I knew he couldn’t or shouldn’t answer them. But I asked him one question today - where does he think Kuminga plays his first game next season?

Without hesitation, he said Golden State. Almost certainly will be a 2+1 deal for 60-80 million. That they’ll come together and get it done.

We’ll see.

[statsman]

Kispert's $13.975M this season makes it difficult to avoid being hard capped at the first apron unless Kuminga starts at $27.95M or more, which I'm not sure happens. Adding TJD or Santos to a S&T deal means Kuminga needs to start at $23.51M or more, which gets close to possible.

Grayson Allen makes $16.875M this season, which all but guarantees a hard cap at the first apron or not spending any of the TPMLE (goodbye, Horford).

Also why it makes a lot more sense for the dubs to take this to Feb and get back the full ~22M in player salary without the hardcaps coming into play.

I am going to disagree with this, to a point. If they're going to retain Kuminga, don't plan for a trade that may not happen mid-season. I think this may be the poorest of all options, including having Kuminga play for the QO. It would be too much of a media circus. Kerr would be questioned at every turn about his playing (or not playing) Kuminga. Not sure what it does to the locker room. And if Kuminga gets injured again? No thanks. If they keep him, plan for him to stay until he opts out or the contract expires.

[vvoland]

Interesting data point here….. take it for what it’s worth.

For the last few years, my next door neighbor has been a guy who had - until recently - worked in an NBA front office. He’s a name a lot of folks on here would recognize.

He’s not with a team in the NBA now…… I bumped into him a couple of hours ago for the first time in a while. I wouldn’t ask him questions while he was in the league, because I knew he couldn’t or shouldn’t answer them. But I asked him one question today - where does he think Kuminga plays his first game next season?

Without hesitation, he said Golden State. Almost certainly will be a 2+1 deal for 60-80 million. That they’ll come together and get it done.

We’ll see.

That's awesome. I would have been very tempted to run bball takes through him until he moved.

The 2+1 in that range is where I would place my money, if I had to bet on it. I was a lot more confident in that a month ago that I am today and do wonder if gsw has even bothered to offer that or is just waiting until JK & co blink first. If they're 99% confident that Horford and Melton will sign, even on Oct 1st (they don't really need either in training camp), I can see MDJ being fine playing chicken.

[vvoland]

Kispert's $13.975M this season makes it difficult to avoid being hard capped at the first apron unless Kuminga starts at $27.95M or more, which I'm not sure happens. Adding TJD or Santos to a S&T deal means Kuminga needs to start at $23.51M or more, which gets close to possible.

Grayson Allen makes $16.875M this season, which all but guarantees a hard cap at the first apron or not spending any of the TPMLE (goodbye, Horford).

Also why it makes a lot more sense for the dubs to take this to Feb and get back the full ~22M in player salary without the hardcaps coming into play.

I am going to disagree with this, to a point. If they're going to retain Kuminga, don't plan for a trade that may not happen mid-season. I think this may be the poorest of all options, including having Kuminga play for the QO. It would be too much of a media circus. Kerr would be questioned at every turn about his playing (or not playing) Kuminga. Not sure what it does to the locker room. And if Kuminga gets injured again? No thanks. If they keep him, plan for him to stay until he opts out or the contract expires.

I agree, you don't sign him to trade him but you sign him to retain the asset, which could include trading him. Yes, the media circus would be annoying but if they win at a clip anywhere near what they did to end the season, it'll be like the 5th question. Now, if they struggle.... then sure. And Kerr is the best coach at managing that, though maybe not with JK? I'm not sure about that last part but I hear your concerns, I agree there's a real risk.

From everyone I've heard about JK in the locker room and their personal feelings (Kerr, Dray, Steph, etc.), it's been 100% positive. I think it's a risk worth taking unless we get a player back today that we think can close (avdija would be my floor). I don't think we will get anyone like that now but JK can either play into that player or get traded for him more easily in Feb. Of course, that would be barring a few scenarios but I'd be ok betting against them.

[cpower]

Interesting data point here….. take it for what it’s worth.

For the last few years, my next door neighbor has been a guy who had - until recently - worked in an NBA front office. He’s a name a lot of folks on here would recognize.

He’s not with a team in the NBA now…… I bumped into him a couple of hours ago for the first time in a while. I wouldn’t ask him questions while he was in the league, because I knew he couldn’t or shouldn’t answer them. But I asked him one question today - where does he think Kuminga plays his first game next season?

Without hesitation, he said Golden State. Almost certainly will be a 2+1 deal for 60-80 million. That they’ll come together and get it done.

We’ll see.

you know Steve Kerr will DNP him right? what do we achieve here signing him for a 2+1 deal and not playing him a min? Answer that then we can look at this proposal by your neighbor

[ChuckDurn]

Interesting data point here….. take it for what it’s worth.

For the last few years, my next door neighbor has been a guy who had - until recently - worked in an NBA front office. He’s a name a lot of folks on here would recognize.

He’s not with a team in the NBA now…… I bumped into him a couple of hours ago for the first time in a while. I wouldn’t ask him questions while he was in the league, because I knew he couldn’t or shouldn’t answer them. But I asked him one question today - where does he think Kuminga plays his first game next season?

Without hesitation, he said Golden State. Almost certainly will be a 2+1 deal for 60-80 million. That they’ll come together and get it done.

We’ll see.

That's awesome. I would have been very tempted to run bball takes through him until he moved.

The 2+1 in that range is where I would place my money, if I had to bet on it. I was a lot more confident in that a month ago that I am today and do wonder if gsw has even bothered to offer that or is just waiting until JK & co blink first. If they're 99% confident that Horford and Melton will sign, even on Oct 1st (they don't really need either in training camp), I can see MDJ being fine playing chicken.

Ironically, I bumped into him right by the moving truck in front of his house, as he is moving.

I would actually bop questions to him periodically not long after he and his family arrived here….. but would rarely get answers or responses at all. So I realized pretty quickly that he wasn’t going to say anything, and I didn’t bother after a while.

[ChuckDurn]

Interesting data point here….. take it for what it’s worth.

For the last few years, my next door neighbor has been a guy who had - until recently - worked in an NBA front office. He’s a name a lot of folks on here would recognize.

He’s not with a team in the NBA now…… I bumped into him a couple of hours ago for the first time in a while. I wouldn’t ask him questions while he was in the league, because I knew he couldn’t or shouldn’t answer them. But I asked him one question today - where does he think Kuminga plays his first game next season?

Without hesitation, he said Golden State. Almost certainly will be a 2+1 deal for 60-80 million. That they’ll come together and get it done.

We’ll see.

you know Steve Kerr will DNP him right? what do we achieve here signing him for a 2+1 deal and not playing him a min? Answer that then we can look at this proposal by your neighbor

Wait….. I thought you were Steve Kerr?

It wasn’t a “proposal” by my neighbor. It was him answering a question I posed him. And he’s a guy who, while he isn’t currently working in an NBA front office, has worked in them for over 10 years, including this season. His resume includes the title of “GM of an NBA team”. What does yours read?

Stop acting like you know sh— when you don’t. Everybody who is speaking here is offering their opinion. Even my neighbor’s answer is his opinion. Which is why I said “take it for what it’s worth”. But it’s a pretty credible, informed opinion.

[cpower]

Interesting data point here….. take it for what it’s worth.

For the last few years, my next door neighbor has been a guy who had - until recently - worked in an NBA front office. He’s a name a lot of folks on here would recognize.

He’s not with a team in the NBA now…… I bumped into him a couple of hours ago for the first time in a while. I wouldn’t ask him questions while he was in the league, because I knew he couldn’t or shouldn’t answer them. But I asked him one question today - where does he think Kuminga plays his first game next season?

Without hesitation, he said Golden State. Almost certainly will be a 2+1 deal for 60-80 million. That they’ll come together and get it done.

We’ll see.

you know Steve Kerr will DNP him right? what do we achieve here signing him for a 2+1 deal and not playing him a min? Answer that then we can look at this proposal by your neighbor

Wait….. I thought you were Steve Kerr?

It wasn’t a “proposal” by my neighbor. It was him answering a question I posed him. And he’s a guy who, while he isn’t currently working in an NBA front office, has worked in them for over 10 years, including this season. His resume includes the title of “GM of an NBA team”. What does yours read?

Stop acting like you know sh— when you don’t. Everybody who is speaking here is offering their opinion. Even my neighbor’s answer is his opinion. Which is why I said “take it for what it’s worth”. But it’s a pretty credible, informed opinion.

sure any opinion counts, but you still did not answer the basic question of why keeping him and keep tanking his value and makes it impossible to trade down the line. nobody cares if he is Bob Myers or Nico Harrison if he can't explain the reason behind a deal.

[vvoland]

you know Steve Kerr will DNP him right? what do we achieve here signing him for a 2+1 deal and not playing him a min? Answer that then we can look at this proposal by your neighbor

Wait….. I thought you were Steve Kerr?

It wasn’t a “proposal” by my neighbor. It was him answering a question I posed him. And he’s a guy who, while he isn’t currently working in an NBA front office, has worked in them for over 10 years, including this season. His resume includes the title of “GM of an NBA team”. What does yours read?

Stop acting like you know sh— when you don’t. Everybody who is speaking here is offering their opinion. Even my neighbor’s answer is his opinion. Which is why I said “take it for what it’s worth”. But it’s a pretty credible, informed opinion.

sure any opinion counts, but you still did not answer the basic question of why keeping him and keep tanking his value and makes it impossible to trade down the line. nobody cares if he is Bob Myers or Nico Harrison if he can't explain the reason behind a deal.

Because "you know Steve Kerr will DNP him right?" is not the reality. Steve said it himself, he'll give the JK + core 3 a real look to start this season if JK is back. That's not how i would have phrased it, and you're free to not believe Steve. I often don't. That said, unless we're really trying to 'chase wins' AND are struggling to keep pace with 6 other teams in the west AND JK is the reason for that, he won't lose too many minutes. Is it possible he'll get DNP-CDs for many of his 50 games? sure. I'll take the under on 5 DNP-CDs before the deadline.

The alternate reality is he plays as a part-time starter when jimmy, dray, or steph sit (probably like a combined 30 games, if we're really lucky) and a 6th man for the rest of the games. Maybe a 7th man, if he struggles. In that quite likely scenario, he may be just what we need. If not, he may fetch us a real player at the deadline.

Instead, you're saying, let's just burn all those bridges/possibilities now and make him play on the QO. Other than pisssing off JK, most of the league, the players union, and losing the asset next summer, what do we actually gain from this? Oh, and he gets to veto trades this season if he's on the QO. Is that all just to save 12M to chase whoever is left for the NTMLE? or to just give horford more money?

[Crazy-Canuck]

Double post

[Crazy-Canuck]

I think there is a consideration we aren't really making that is possible here.

Isn't it possible that Kuminga is ok with, say, the Kings offer of $20M but it's the Warriors that are playing hardball and won't do it? We are all assuming based on rumors upon rumors this or that. But I think it's worth considering this scenario where JK really doesn't have any agency here and is basically at the will of the Warriors demands. Just saying it's possible.

It's just as possible that the Warriors were good with the Carter package, but jk refused to extend for anything under 30M. Other teams might not even be offering jk 20M. Rumors are that the Warriors have been trying to extend him at the 20M+ range, but Kuminga ain't listening. (Brett Seigal).

People assume it's the Warriors that are stalling trades for with their demands. I'm not sure. I don't think kuminga gets you a pick as a RFA. There isn't much history for that.

[vvoland]

I think there is a consideration we aren't really making that is possible here.

Isn't it possible that Kuminga is ok with, say, the Kings offer of $20M but it's the Warriors that are playing hardball and won't do it? We are all assuming based on rumors upon rumors this or that. But I think it's worth considering this scenario where JK really doesn't have any agency here and is basically at the will of the Warriors demands. Just saying it's possible.

It's just as possible that the Warriors were good with the Carter package, but jk refused to extend for anything under 30M. Other teams might not even be offering jk 20M. Rumors are that the Warriors have been trying to extend him at the 20M+ range, but Kuminga ain't listening. (Brett Seigal).

People assume it's the Warriors that are stalling trades for with their demands. I'm not sure. I don't think kuminga gets you a pick as a RFA. There isn't much history for that.

Did he report that the dubs actually offered $20m? Did he say what the years were?

[Crazy-Canuck]

I think there is a consideration we aren't really making that is possible here.

Isn't it possible that Kuminga is ok with, say, the Kings offer of $20M but it's the Warriors that are playing hardball and won't do it? We are all assuming based on rumors upon rumors this or that. But I think it's worth considering this scenario where JK really doesn't have any agency here and is basically at the will of the Warriors demands. Just saying it's possible.

It's just as possible that the Warriors were good with the Carter package, but jk refused to extend for anything under 30M. Other teams might not even be offering jk 20M. Rumors are that the Warriors have been trying to extend him at the 20M+ range, but Kuminga ain't listening. (Brett Seigal).

People assume it's the Warriors that are stalling trades for with their demands. I'm not sure. I don't think kuminga gets you a pick as a RFA. There isn't much history for that.

Did he report that the dubs actually offered $20m? Did he say what the years were?

No years mentioned. He just mentioned the warriors have been trying to extend at 20+M and the Kuminga camp is holding firm at 30+M.

The actual tweet is posted in this thread.

[vvoland]

It's just as possible that the Warriors were good with the Carter package, but jk refused to extend for anything under 30M. Other teams might not even be offering jk 20M. Rumors are that the Warriors have been trying to extend him at the 20M+ range, but Kuminga ain't listening. (Brett Seigal).

People assume it's the Warriors that are stalling trades for with their demands. I'm not sure. I don't think kuminga gets you a pick as a RFA. There isn't much history for that.

Did he report that the dubs actually offered $20m? Did he say what the years were?

No years mentioned. He just mentioned the warriors have been trying to extend at 20+M and the Kuminga camp is holding firm at 30+M.

The actual tweet is posted in this thread.

Ah, that's what you were referring to. If it's this:

https://www.si.com/nba/warriors/news/jonathan-kuminga-warriors-having-big-contract-feud-report-01k0n4gwha2c

it doesn't read to me like it's sourced. IMHO, it sounds a lot like many of the guesses on here, including your former neighbor's. Could be true, could be false, likely to be just speculation. If JK is really holding out for 30M, in this environment, he may really get shafted.

[ChuckDurn]

Wait….. I thought you were Steve Kerr?

It wasn’t a “proposal” by my neighbor. It was him answering a question I posed him. And he’s a guy who, while he isn’t currently working in an NBA front office, has worked in them for over 10 years, including this season. His resume includes the title of “GM of an NBA team”. What does yours read?

Stop acting like you know sh— when you don’t. Everybody who is speaking here is offering their opinion. Even my neighbor’s answer is his opinion. Which is why I said “take it for what it’s worth”. But it’s a pretty credible, informed opinion.

sure any opinion counts, but you still did not answer the basic question of why keeping him and keep tanking his value and makes it impossible to trade down the line. nobody cares if he is Bob Myers or Nico Harrison if he can't explain the reason behind a deal.

Because "you know Steve Kerr will DNP him right?" is not the reality. Steve said it himself, he'll give the JK + core 3 a real look to start this season if JK is back. That's not how i would have phrased it, and you're free to not believe Steve. I often don't. That said, unless we're really trying to 'chase wins' AND are struggling to keep pace with 6 other teams in the west AND JK is the reason for that, he won't lose too many minutes. Is it possible he'll get DNP-CDs for many of his 50 games? sure. I'll take the under on 5 DNP-CDs before the deadline.

The alternate reality is he plays as a part-time starter when jimmy, dray, or steph sit (probably like a combined 30 games, if we're really lucky) and a 6th man for the rest of the games. Maybe a 7th man, if he struggles. In that quite likely scenario, he may be just what we need. If not, he may fetch us a real player at the deadline.

Instead, you're saying, let's just burn all those bridges/possibilities now and make him play on the QO. Other than pisssing off JK, most of the league, the players union, and losing the asset next summer, what do we actually gain from this? Oh, and he gets to veto trades this season if he's on the QO. Is that all just to save 12M to chase whoever is left for the NTMLE? or to just give horford more money?

Yep. Exactly what my response to the silly idea of “Kerr will not play him for a minute” would have been. Thanks for saving me the trouble.

[bay2hk]

One key date to look out for is 8/29. That’s the deadline to stretch and waive players. We’ll see if any teams make a move to clear out cap space by then.