Zatzman: This era of the Raptors depends massively on Brandon Ingram

[Thaddy]

We've bet on worse in the past like Gay, Bargnani, and O'Neal. I'm okay with Ingram, he could be a poor man's Durant.

[shmoosicle]

We've bet on worse in the past like Gay, Bargnani, and O'Neal. I'm okay with Ingram, he could be a poor man's Durant.

That's very true.
I don't have a ton of hope on this team's ceiling but at least we don't have any terrible Bradley Beal level contracts.

[djsunyc]

Sometimes I think the negative or “more critical” people on this board hear something completely different than what’s being said when even the slightest positive thing is said about this team or its players. Literally no one is saying when healthy BI is some superstar or saviour that is going to make this team a contender. Everyone is saying he’s a good player that brings a lot of the skills this team needs and we are probably a first round exit team. What is unrealistic or wrong about that? lol. Positive people are even saying that his health is a concern.

Literally no positive person has said anything delusional or outlandish and here come the negative people acting like any optimism means we aren’t living in reality and are setting our expectations too high lol. This team should make the playoffs, we have enough talent to and it would be a disappointment if we don’t. It may have to be through the play in first but we should make the playoffs. Most people whether it’s media or fans have said this and believe it. So I don’t understand why people on this board are acting like something crazy is being expected of this team and everyone needs to temper expectations. It’s just another case of people on here being negative or contrarian just for the sake of it

100%

i see ingram as this - an big upgrade from brown + olynyk. he helps fill in a missing piece in terms of style of play - halfcourt iso scoring. and he gives us more depth.

more often than not, most games come down the final 4-5 minutes. the hope is that ingram out there during crunch time helps and we win more than we lose.

[JB7]

I mean, no, not really. Not if you have zero chance to win.

Meantime, as I said, we aren't exiting the East regardless.

A team never has a zero chance of winning. Especially with what the West teams have to go through to make it to the Finals. A West team could always be a key injury away from losing.

The only two teams capable of winning the chip are those in the Finals.

You're grasping at straws. If the East is relatively weak, that means the West relatively is strong. So if you end up beating weak-ass East teams to the Finals, you're now facing the strongest team from the much stronger Conference - the true Championship contender - still standing in your way.

The idea that making the Finals automatically makes you a contender is similar rationale to buying a lottery ticket because you have to you have to be in it to win it. Yes, that's technically true, but practically not rational.

This is not the same as buying a lottery ticket. Literally, the two teams with the chance to win the finals are those in the actual finals.

So if you are a strong team in the East, you could have a much greater likelihood of winning the chip than one of the 4-5 teams in the West, because the path is easier to the Finals. It is the reason Lebron chose to stay in the East all of those years (Cavs & Heat). It was the easiest path to the Finals every year.

But this year, because of how weak the East is, it just opens up the possibility of making it to the Finals for more teams in the East.

I'm not trying to say the Raps are some strong candidate to make the Finals, but just that the possibility exists primarily because of how weak the East is this season. And once in the Finals, while their Eastern team's chances wouldn't be great, they would still have a chance, and that West team would have had to go through probably 3 difficult rounds to make it to the finals, and could have injuries to show for it.

[JB7]

Sometimes I think the negative or “more critical” people on this board hear something completely different than what’s being said when even the slightest positive thing is said about this team or its players. Literally no one is saying when healthy BI is some superstar or saviour that is going to make this team a contender. Everyone is saying he’s a good player that brings a lot of the skills this team needs and we are probably a first round exit team. What is unrealistic or wrong about that? lol. Positive people are even saying that his health is a concern.

Literally no positive person has said anything delusional or outlandish and here come the negative people acting like any optimism means we aren’t living in reality and are setting our expectations too high lol. This team should make the playoffs, we have enough talent to and it would be a disappointment if we don’t. It may have to be through the play in first but we should make the playoffs. Most people whether it’s media or fans have said this and believe it. So I don’t understand why people on this board are acting like something crazy is being expected of this team and everyone needs to temper expectations. It’s just another case of people on here being negative or contrarian just for the sake of it

100%

i see ingram as this - an big upgrade from brown + olynyk. he helps fill in a missing piece in terms of style of play - halfcourt iso scoring. and he gives us more depth.

more often than not, most games come down the final 4-5 minutes. the hope is that ingram out there during crunch time helps and we win more than we lose.

Agree with this. BI just fits what the Raps need, and are missing. That guy that can get a bucket late in the shot clock, because of the advantage he creates with his length and shooting. And they don't even need him there for 82 games. They could load manage him like Kawhi, for 65 games and be fine, using him in games against stronger opponents. There are still so many teams tanking in the East, that those games the Raps won't even need him to beat those teams. But his presence at the end of games against good teams, just gives the Raps a better chance at winning those games.

And I am not comparing him to Kawhi in terms of impact. Reality is, in 2019, the East was much stronger, and the only reason the team was able to have that level of success (and win the chip) was because of Kawhi's dominance.

The East is so much different now, with no clear dominant team, where just having a guy that can get a clutch bucket (Raps weakness), could be enough to help this team perform beyond expectations.

[ciueli]

Ceiling means best case scenario. A competitive 1st round loss is the most id expect from this team (like the Pistons this past year).

Worst case scenario we have injuries to Poeltl/Ingram and this team is top 10 lottery bound.

Most likely is we are a play-in team that either makes it to get their asses kicked in the 1st round or doesnt make it at all.

Not surprisingly there are still people on this board who don't realize how poorly balanced and top heavy this roster is. We're a Jak injury away from having a minimum contract player as our starting C, an Ingram injury away from being basically the same team as last season minus Kelly Olynyk, Bruce Brown, and Chris Boucher. Even healthy, every player in our starting 5 has flaws, too many mediocre defenders (IQ, RJ, Ingram), too many non or inconsistent 3 point shooters (RJ, Scottie, Jak), too few quality shot creators for others.

You realize that you could say this for every other team in the league, right?

No, every other team in the league isn't a tax team with no perennial All-Star level players on their roster and glaring holes in their bench.

[tsherkin]

No, every other team in the league isn't a tax team with no perennial All-Star level players on their roster and glaring holes in their bench.

I think at some point, we just need to accept that this is what we've got, and see where we go from here. We've been dog-ass for a while now, so we have to hope we'll be healthy for a bit. Enjoy some > .500 seasons and some playoff games. Then see what management can do to extend that run and better the team.

We can't just always be less than thrilled with everything, because we already know from years and decades of the sport that there are ebbs and flows, and that rebuilding is a process which relies heavily upon luck. And yes, sometimes you pull the trigger too quickly, but ultimately, you can't expect a fan base to back you if you just suck ass forever and pray for picks to turn out.

[ConSarnit]

“Hacking the possession game”

So we’re just trying to run back Nurse-ball?

If one of your key strategies is trying to win the possession game you are admitting your team lacks the talent to really be competitive. Possession game antics (while somewhat effective) always have limited upside.

To me, this is not an overly encouraging sign that we are reverting back to Nurse-ball type tactics. I have serious doubts that a possession style game can actually work given how Darko wants to play on the offensive end. If we are going to encourage ball movement that is going to lead to turnovers and that is going to neutralize any possession advantage we’ve gained. Teams around the league are also hip to the possession game as more teams are willing to play bigger to up their offensive rebounding (and as such increase their possessions).

Ball movement + winning the possession game don’t really align all that well.

[TheGeneral99]

We've bet on worse in the past like Gay, Bargnani, and O'Neal. I'm okay with Ingram, he could be a poor man's Durant.

I think it's safe to say that he won't be like Gay or Bargnani given his production when healthy, but the concern is whether he will have injury issues like O'Neal.

We traded for O'Neal when he was 30 years old and he already had significant injury issues since 2005 and had a very average season in 2007, the year before we traded for him. We hoped he could regain his form, but it was clear that while he was still a decent center, he was far from the all-star he was in the early 2000s and would never regain his form.

Ingram has these same injury concerns, but he's only 27 and still played at a high level when healthy last season. I think the hope is that he can play at least 60-65 games next season - if he can do that he'll be a success.

[tsherkin]

“Hacking the possession game”

So we’re just trying to run back Nurse-ball?

If one of your key strategies is trying to win the possession game you are admitting your team lacks the talent to really be competitive. Possession game antics (while somewhat effective) always have limited upside.

To me, this is not an overly encouraging sign that we are reverting back to Nurse-ball type tactics. I have serious doubts that a possession style game can actually work given how Darko wants to play on the offensive end. If we are going to encourage ball movement that is going to lead to turnovers and that is going to neutralize any possession advantage we’ve gained. Teams around the league are also hip to the possession game as more teams are willing to play bigger to up their offensive rebounding (and as such increase their possessions).

Ball movement + winning the possession game don’t really align all that well.

I mean, we don't really have a choice. So we have to try and win somehow. Rebounding (at either end), forcing turnovers, avoiding them on our end, that's what we've got at the moment. We don't have elite scoring, though a healthy BI will at least improve our on-ball creation and take possessions away from guys who are demonstrably worse scorers (like Barnes and RJ). Quick being back will help, and maybe the kids show us something.

There are a finite number of avenues to success. And it doesn't have to be the case that ball movement is at odds with possession control, if you're not trying to force passes creatively. It all depends on how you arrange the offense.

[tsherkin]

We traded for O'Neal when he was 30 years old and he already had significant injury issues since 2005

JO was a fairly stupid acquisition which went about as we all expected at the time. It was a panic move, which BC was known for. And he didn't stick with him for long, fortunately, turning him into Marion, and then into Hedo. There was no real sane defense of the JO acquisition. He was never a particularly good offensive player to begin with, nor even a stunning rebounder. Good defender, but like, washed af when we acquired him, and obviously so. It was reactionary nonsense.

BI is different. His issue is entirely one of availability more than anything else. And that is also a large gamble, but an interesting and relatively affordable one, at least.

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

IDK, since he's a Rich Paul client it's just as likely he comes in and hijacks the offence. That's if he stays healthy.

The problem with the move is it has limited upside, and loads of downside.

[tsherkin]

IDK, since he's a Rich Paul client it's just as likely he comes in and hijacks the offence. That's if he stays healthy.

What do you consider "hijacking" to mean?

He's going to be asked to be our primary scorer. He's a good passer. We lack a lot of strong on-ball creation, and that is his primary skill. IQ is best served off-ball, and RJ isn't an efficient volume scorer at all despite his rim pressure. And Scottie, barring some miracle change in his game, is a pretty bad mid-volume scorer.

So does it really count as "hijacking" if he comes in and does everything better than the guys we already have, while enabling our shooters?

[ConSarnit]

No, every other team in the league isn't a tax team with no perennial All-Star level players on their roster and glaring holes in their bench.

I think at some point, we just need to accept that this is what we've got, and see where we go from here. We've been dog-ass for a while now, so we have to hope we'll be healthy for a bit. Enjoy some > .500 seasons and some playoff games. Then see what management can do to extend that run and better the team.

We can't just always be less than thrilled with everything, because we already know from years and decades of the sport that there are ebbs and flows, and that rebuilding is a process which relies heavily upon luck. And yes, sometimes you pull the trigger too quickly, but ultimately, you can't expect a fan base to back you if you just suck ass forever and pray for picks to turn out.

The issue is that we’ve constructed a team where there is no guarantee we make the playoffs. The play-in, sure. If Ingrams health doesn’t hold up (not a great bet) we’re a low 40’s win team fighting for the 8th seed. We’ve seemingly built a team with limited upside that feels like a team that will have to be rebuilt in 2-3 years after we’ve accomplished very little. The idea that we can be the “6th seed” is great but it’s coming at a time when the East is extremely down. Earning the 6th seed this season should not really be a feather in anyone’s cap given how the East’s upper echelon has been destroyed by injury. The core of this team feels like one of a team that will easily get supplanted in the standings once the likes of IND, BOS and PHI (a big maybe) return to health.

Now, I say this as someone who doesn’t really care about the fanbase. I want to compete for titles. I get that the organization/ownership might have other goals. If those goals are building a 1st round and out team for the sake of maintaining fan interest then I am not going to be very supportive of that model.

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

IDK, since he's a Rich Paul client it's just as likely he comes in and hijacks the offence. That's if he stays healthy.

What do you consider "hijacking" to mean?

He's going to be asked to be our primary scorer. He's a good passer. We lack a lot of strong on-ball creation, and that is his primary skill. IQ is best served off-ball, and RJ isn't an efficient volume scorer at all despite his rim pressure. And Scottie, barring some miracle change in his game, is a pretty bad mid-volume scorer.

So does it really count as "hijacking" if he comes in and does everything better than the guys we already have, while enabling our shooters?

It depends, his agent dealt with the guy we just fired.

[ConSarnit]

IDK, since he's a Rich Paul client it's just as likely he comes in and hijacks the offence. That's if he stays healthy.

What do you consider "hijacking" to mean?

He's going to be asked to be our primary scorer. He's a good passer. We lack a lot of strong on-ball creation, and that is his primary skill. IQ is best served off-ball, and RJ isn't an efficient volume scorer at all despite his rim pressure. And Scottie, barring some miracle change in his game, is a pretty bad mid-volume scorer.

So does it really count as "hijacking" if he comes in and does everything better than the guys we already have, while enabling our shooters?

I’m not a huge Ingram fan but we should be so lucky if he comes in a hijacks the offense given what we’ve been working with last year or so. Ingram is the only guy with any type of proof of concept as a #1 on a play-in/playoff team.

No one on this team has come anywhere close to being able to say “I got this” to Ingram.

[tsherkin]

The issue is that we’ve constructed a team where there is no guarantee we make the playoffs. The play-in, sure. If Ingrams health doesn’t hold up (not a great bet) we’re a low 40’s win team fighting for the 8th seed. We’ve seemingly built a team with limited upside that feels like a team that will have to be rebuilt in 2-3 years after we’ve accomplished very little. The idea that we can be the “6th seed” is great but it’s coming at a time when the East is extremely down. Earning the 6th seed this season should not really be a feather in anyone’s cap given how the East’s upper echelon has been destroyed by injury. The core of this team feels like one of a team that will easily get supplanted in the standings once the likes of IND, BOS and PHI (a big maybe) return to health.

Now, I say this as someone who doesn’t really care about the fanbase. I want to compete for titles. I get that the organization/ownership might have other goals. If those goals are building a 1st round and out team for the sake of maintaining fan interest then I am not going to be very supportive of that model.

Sure, but at some point, we're just pissing into the wind if all we've got is bitching about the team, you know what I mean?

I don't think we have a great deal of upside right now, but I'm at least going to enjoy watching the team win more than it loses this year if things go reasonably well. That's something. I probably won't watch a TON of Raptors games when there are better teams out there to watch, but still. They can't do magic, luck is still a huge factor and I know most of us would watch a lot LESS if we set ourselves up for another 30-win season. They had to do SOMETHING, it just is how this all works.

You don't just I DREAM OF JEANIE your way into a contention-level squad because you wanna. It starts somewhere.

[tsherkin]

I’m not a huge Ingram fan but we should be so lucky if he comes in a hijacks the offense given what we’ve been working with last year or so. Ingram is the only guy with any type of proof of concept as a #1 on a play-in/playoff team.

No one on this team has come anywhere close to being able to say “I got this” to Ingram.

Yeah, this is what I'm talking about. He's the best player we've had on this team in over half a decade. His issue is health, not ability. We need to let him do his thing, for sure.

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

IDK, since he's a Rich Paul client it's just as likely he comes in and hijacks the offence. That's if he stays healthy.

What do you consider "hijacking" to mean?

He's going to be asked to be our primary scorer. He's a good passer. We lack a lot of strong on-ball creation, and that is his primary skill. IQ is best served off-ball, and RJ isn't an efficient volume scorer at all despite his rim pressure. And Scottie, barring some miracle change in his game, is a pretty bad mid-volume scorer.

So does it really count as "hijacking" if he comes in and does everything better than the guys we already have, while enabling our shooters?

I’m not a huge Ingram fan but we should be so lucky if he comes in a hijacks the offense given what we’ve been working with last year or so. Ingram is the only guy with any type of proof of concept as a #1 on a play-in/playoff team.

No one on this team has come anywhere close to being able to say “I got this” to Ingram.

It could also be the inverse. He could play the "sit out" game. That's still hijacking.

[Boselecta]

In the past, I’d usually be down on teams like this talented but clearly not on the level of the superteams. Deep down, you just knew they had no real shot. But now more than ever, we’re seeing that even mid-tier squads can make a legit run. Look at the Pacers there’s no reason this Raptors team can’t do the same.