70sFan wrote:... In short - Shaq generated inside points against set defenses like nobody else in the league history and he didn't even have the ball in his hands. His off-ball activity also made fit him very nicely with perimeter creators like Kobe (or Penny).
Of course, his lob finishing ability (GOAT-level at that) could make him a potential great roll-man as well, but this part of the game wasn't utilized that much in the early 2000s.
I think I will stop now, but maybe I will come back with some of his defensive strengths (especially man defense), if anyone is interested of course.
Fantastic post, as usual, 70s!
A shame that I didn't find the time to talk about Hakeem before he went in, but at least I did something on Shaq. I will try to write more such posts on Wilt and Duncan in next threads.
70sFan wrote:A shame that I didn't find the time to talk about Hakeem before he went in, but at least I did something on Shaq. I will try to write more such posts on Wilt and Duncan in next threads.
Excited to see more 70sFan goodness on post players as we progress.
70sFan wrote:A shame that I didn't find the time to talk about Hakeem before he went in, but at least I did something on Shaq. I will try to write more such posts on Wilt and Duncan in next threads.
Excited to see more 70sFan goodness on post players as we progress.
Also, I think I should put my post in the next thread once it starts. I hope I am allowed to do that
(1962) alternates: 1960, 1961, 1964, 1965, 1966 (Any year except for 69)
11 championships from a natural born winner who wins no matter what. Simply the best. So he doesn’t score. But he invalidates opposing offense to an extent that on defense alone you are the greatest winner in history. And hey he didn’t always have championship tier help. But he always won. The best man defender. The best help defender. The best leader. The best winner. Lebron is a titan. But he was never inevitable like Russell.
Russell’s impact was so singular his sole defensive impact outweighed his entire teams offense and turned them from an okay team made of offensive stars to a defensive dynasty headed by one man.
The Fundamental. Tim Duncan
(2002) Alternates: 2003
Spoiler:
Paulluxx9000 wrote:Duncan’s at his best now here’s the final version
Tim Duncan. You could say he was already the best player. You could. Really. He’s that good. He can pop, he can pass, he can block, he can step out and stop. He needs a little time to figure it out but man, it’s only a little. KG, Shaq, Duncan. Side by side by side in their primes. That’s just incredible. I’m a Duncan over Hakeem guy. No he didn’t move as much. No he didn’t spin like a ballerina. But he was there, where he needed to be, whenever he needed to be, again and again and again and again and again. Bowens. Robinson. Manu. Tika Taka. Twin Towers. No matter what Duncan was there. On and off, placed in a straight jacket. Given little privilege over the guy seated at the end of he bench. Duncan didn’t get to be an icon. But he was always there all the same. He’s a monster to score on. He’s a monster to defend. Shaq is shaq but if there was no shaq Duncan would be next. Triples and doubles galore. And he can pass it, really pass it. Not just praying on neanderthal defensive schemes like the Jordans and Hakeems, but make for others when making is hard. And you never want to try him at the basket. Unless you’re shaq. And like the tortoise vs the hare, even the quick and fast will run into trouble if they confuse Mr.Duncan as some statue. He’s not the full thing but he’s already pretty close. He’s the best of his era. And when he faces Malone he might already be BITW. He’ll get better no doubt. He has work to do containing penetration. Work to do as using his unusual ball control to turn doubles into near triples and work to do timing when he jumps. But the key qualities are all there and the Spurs win with what was close to about any team ever as a 2 man team.
Last time he lost but this time he wins and boy did he deserve it. Best in the world. Best of the decade. Almost. Pure basketball there might have been no one better until the alien drafted next season.
The Dream. Hakeem Olajuwon
(1993)
Spoiler:
The Bigs are back. [quote]And here’s a big man. Best defender. One of the best offensive players in the league. Maybe even top 3 in the playoffs. Hakeem Olajuwon isn’t perfect. Definitely not this young. He has a perchance for dumb fouls, overhelping, ill-advised shots, all that jazz. But there’s no one else in the league who blends offensive threat, and defensive dynamism like he does and he had himself a dream (heh) of a playoff run. Sampson played great those playoffs (at least before the finals)), key guys stepped up, but this was Hakeem’s show and that show bulldozed the west while holding itself pretty well against a proper superteam even with the key guys went off-key
Hakeem’s not young this year. But he is wiser and has his first opportunity to really show out. Show out he did.
His defense is better than when he was stomping on show-time and larry bird. Best rim protector. Best man defender. Best help defender. A top 3 rebounder.
But his offense, whoo. He opens teams up just as much (maybe more) than the MJs and the Mark Prices and the Barkleys. He can’t render everyone meaningless in a flash like Magic but he’s a invalidate 2-3-4 guy too now. He scores in bunches and those bunches are extra special because alot of them come facing bunches of defenders.
Statistically this is obvious but the tape makes it undeniable. Hakeem is far and away the best player in the league. Not in the heres the ws48 way, but in the no one comes close to the totality of what I’m doing to make my team win way.
I think that’s the way that matters personally. He should get all the votes (I know he won’t).
(1962) alternates: 1960, 1961, 1964, 1965, 1966 (Any year except for 69)
11 championships from a natural born winner who wins no matter what. Simply the best. So he doesn’t score. But he invalidates opposing offense to an extent that on defense alone you are the greatest winner in history. And hey he didn’t always have championship tier help. But he always won. The best man defender. The best help defender. The best leader. The best winner. Lebron is a titan. But he was never inevitable like Russell.
Russell’s impact was so singular his sole defensive impact outweighed his entire teams offense and turned them from an okay team made of offensive stars to a defensive dynasty headed by one man.
The Fundamental. Tim Duncan
(2002) Alternates: 2003
Spoiler:
Paulluxx9000 wrote:Duncan’s at his best now here’s the final version
Tim Duncan. You could say he was already the best player. You could. Really. He’s that good. He can pop, he can pass, he can block, he can step out and stop. He needs a little time to figure it out but man, it’s only a little. KG, Shaq, Duncan. Side by side by side in their primes. That’s just incredible. I’m a Duncan over Hakeem guy. No he didn’t move as much. No he didn’t spin like a ballerina. But he was there, where he needed to be, whenever he needed to be, again and again and again and again and again. Bowens. Robinson. Manu. Tika Taka. Twin Towers. No matter what Duncan was there. On and off, placed in a straight jacket. Given little privilege over the guy seated at the end of he bench. Duncan didn’t get to be an icon. But he was always there all the same. He’s a monster to score on. He’s a monster to defend. Shaq is shaq but if there was no shaq Duncan would be next. Triples and doubles galore. And he can pass it, really pass it. Not just praying on neanderthal defensive schemes like the Jordans and Hakeems, but make for others when making is hard. And you never want to try him at the basket. Unless you’re shaq. And like the tortoise vs the hare, even the quick and fast will run into trouble if they confuse Mr.Duncan as some statue. He’s not the full thing but he’s already pretty close. He’s the best of his era. And when he faces Malone he might already be BITW. He’ll get better no doubt. He has work to do containing penetration. Work to do as using his unusual ball control to turn doubles into near triples and work to do timing when he jumps. But the key qualities are all there and the Spurs win with what was close to about any team ever as a 2 man team.
Last time he lost but this time he wins and boy did he deserve it. Best in the world. Best of the decade. Almost. Pure basketball there might have been no one better until the alien drafted next season.
The Dream. Hakeem Olajuwon
(1993)
Spoiler:
The Bigs are back.
And here’s a big man. Best defender. One of the best offensive players in the league. Maybe even top 3 in the playoffs. Hakeem Olajuwon isn’t perfect. Definitely not this young. He has a perchance for dumb fouls, overhelping, ill-advised shots, all that jazz. But there’s no one else in the league who blends offensive threat, and defensive dynamism like he does and he had himself a dream (heh) of a playoff run. Sampson played great those playoffs (at least before the finals)), key guys stepped up, but this was Hakeem’s show and that show bulldozed the west while holding itself pretty well against a proper superteam even with the key guys went off-key
Hakeem’s not young this year. But he is wiser and has his first opportunity to really show out. Show out he did.
His defense is better than when he was stomping on show-time and larry bird. Best rim protector. Best man defender. Best help defender. A top 3 rebounder.
But his offense, whoo. He opens teams up just as much (maybe more) than the MJs and the Mark Prices and the Barkleys. He can’t render everyone meaningless in a flash like Magic but he’s a invalidate 2-3-4 guy too now. He scores in bunches and those bunches are extra special because alot of them come facing bunches of defenders.
Statistically this is obvious but the tape makes it undeniable. Hakeem is far and away the best player in the league. Not in the heres the ws48 way, but in the no one comes close to the totality of what I’m doing to make my team win way.
I think that’s the way that matters personally. He should get all the votes (I know he won’t).
Ah, bummer. AEnigma has already tallied the votes!
—69 Russell— OR 64 > 62 Look. Idk if he would be good today. There’s someone I know who keeps calling him Bagless Bam but I’m just tryna rate who was making it work and I been convinced Russ was like that over the last couple weeks. And I think if someone averaging 25 a night did what he did before he stopped, everyone here is putting him somewhere 1, 2, or 3.
You’re the coach. You’re on a team that isn’t that good. You got Jerry West and Wilt. And you got the Knicks who end up winning 2 chips right after you leave. Let’s be real now. If Lebron beats that. If MJ beats that. If Hakeem beats that. If Duncan beats that. We’re calling them the GOAT.
If they can be the GOAT for winning that. Then when Russell does that shi let’s give him proper respect.
—94 Hakeem— OR 95 > 93
This ones one of those I had no one and won but I’m going all out to defend my man Hakeem here. Big thanks to all of you watching games: https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=2415142 I always liked Hakeem’s game but it was just a vibe if I’m real with it. Wouldn’t be tryn to push this without ppl here supplying me all this ammo on and off this site.
1986 Lakers vs. Spurs: +31.4 NRtg, 122.7 ORtg 1986 Lakers vs. Mavs: +5.1 NRtg, 119.7 ORtg 1986 Lakers vs. Rockets: -3.6 NRtg, 107.4 ORtg
1987 Lakers vs. Nuggets: +25.2 NRtg, 125.1 ORtg 1987 Lakers vs. Warriors: +10.5 NRtg, 121.7 ORtg 1987 Lakers vs. Sonics: +11.4 NRtg, 117.2 ORtg 1987 Lakers vs. Celtics: +4.3 NRtg, 118.4 ORtg
NOBODY could stop that Lakers offense—the 1985 Celtics slowed them a little, but the Rockets did something pretty extraordinary in 1986 that really doesn’t get celebrated enough. 1990 Jordan was of course amazing, and played great in the playoffs (though the 1990 Pistons aren’t in the same tier as this Lakers team—1990 pistons had some of the best health ever and were still a tier below that Lakers’ juggernaut), but 82 games, 39 mpg of a player basically at his peak producing that SRS (and then playinand seems to be swept away while what 1986 Hakeem did doesn’t seem to get the fanfare it should.
Hakeem also sneaky underrated playmaker with really good scoring:
Put those 2 together and you got a sophmore carrying a mid or weak team to championship level play vs historic opps as a sophmore
Spoiler:
Round 1: Chicago Bulls (-3.1), won 3-0, by +13.7 points per game (+10.6 SRS eq) Round 2: Atlanta Hawks (+3.7), won 4-1, by +9.6 points per game (+13.3 SRS eq) Round 3: Milwaukee Bucks (+6.7), won 4-0, by +15.0 points per game (+21.7 SRS eq) Round 4: Houston Rockets (+7.4), won 4-2, by +6.2 points per game (+13.6 SRS eq)
Now pair this with his O going saiyan under rudy and you get some crazy overall impact. Rockets from 2-10 to 55 and i won’t say its all hakeem but it’s mostly him scoring like 5 more ppg more efficiently. 94 Hakeem is basically is 93 hakeem with a full playoff run and championship so i use him.
But the important thing is he’s improving his team as much as any 80s/90s guy in the rs, he’s rising more in the pos, and he’s doing it despite being in a way worse situation and not getting used properly until he’s 30. So I think as prob the best peak of his era he can be top 3
—17 Steph— OR 2016 t3 offensive player imo in his peak while looking great on impact metrics, i think he provides some of the highest ceilings on teams and being one of the most scalable offensive players ever, some postseason struggles but i cannot deny him as a player
70sFan wrote:Also, I think I should put my post in the next thread once it starts. I hope I am allowed to do that
Well, we still have Russell and Shaq, Duncan and Wilt and many others as candidates, so I think you're going to have many opportunities.
And Moses, Robinson, Gilmore, Ewing... Even Jokic. Plenty of guys to talk about. Not enough time to do them justice.
So many different guys, depending on how far down we go, for sure.
I've been on the Jokic train early, so I'm excited for when he finally gets his flowers in this project, heh. But yeah, there are a bunch of post guys I'm really excited to celebrate. Would have liked to get into it about Hakeem (or Duncan) a little earlier, but I've been busy. I will get the chance for one of them in the next thread, though, it would seem!
ShotCreator wrote:Lol, the winning bias is strong. 1994 Hakeem has no advantages over 1993.
I'd say he has no clear advantages, but it is not like 1993 Hakeem has clear advantages over 1994 either. These two seasons are very similar all around.
One_and_Done wrote:Well, he actually missed your preference for Duncan, so between that and this new vote Duncan appears to be the winner.
If he counts the vote, which came in after the tally was presented. Seems to be past the deadline, so we'll see what he says!
But VanWest also articulated a preference for Hakeem after the fact. And his actual vote came well before the tally.
VanWest82 wrote:
AEnigma wrote:Hakeem Olajuwon wins 10 (AEnigma, rk2023, capfan33, falcolombardi, Ol Roy, Verticality, Joao Saraivo, OldSchoolNoBull, Djoker, and trelos6) to 9 (Busywithbball, metta-tonne, OhayoKD, One_and_Done, ILikeSHAIguys, Top10alltime, Elpolo_14, homecourtloss, and ceoofkobefans) over Tim Duncan (VanWest82, tsherkin, and Samurai did not articulate a definite preference between the two).[/list]
I've already alluded to this in multiple posts throughout the project, including my voting post itt, but just for the sake of clarity given it sounds like this one was really close, I'd rank 94 Hakeem over whatever version of Duncan (probably 03).
I did miss tsherkin’s list of HMs, but I also was not counting VanWest’s similarly implied preference for Hakeem (in the sense he voted Hakeem and then said he was moving Russell ahead). So yes, I would say those two cancel out on opposing sides, and I will edit to that effect.
As for the extent to which we have two late votes — no, I do not think you should be able to vote late in a tight race after the count is complete — they offset each other too.
ShotCreator wrote:Lol, the winning bias is strong. 1994 Hakeem has no advantages over 1993.
I'd say he has no clear advantages, but it is not like 1993 Hakeem has clear advantages over 1994 either. These two seasons are very similar all around.
Just that little detail 1994 being much closer in time to the clearly regressed 1995, than 1993 is. Logically 1993 is just a better player and season.
