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RJ Barrett is Criminally Underrated

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Re: RJ Barrett is Criminally Underrated 

Post#241 » by ConSarnit » Thu Jul 24, 2025 3:49 pm

earthtone wrote:
OhCanada wrote:
CPT wrote:
Can you find a single post saying they want(ed) to trade RJ + 9 for Collins or MPJ? Let alone it being any kind of consensus?

For Collins yeah people suggested it. For MPJ no I meant Cam Johnson and confused the two because of the trade my bad.

People have been suggesting trading some combination of RJ + 9 for Collins, Cam Johnson, Malik Monk, Patrick Williams and everyone under the sun all off-season, not sure what point CPT was trying to make


Not a single person was suggesting trading RJ + 9 for the likes of Patrick Williams. The Williams trade that was floated around here was RJ for Williams + 12. And even then most posters were against it.
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Re: RJ Barrett is Criminally Underrated 

Post#242 » by DreamTeam09 » Fri Jul 25, 2025 1:54 am




A bucks fan page on IG posted
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Re: RJ Barrett is Criminally Underrated 

Post#243 » by DreamTeam09 » Fri Jul 25, 2025 1:56 am

A bucks fan page on IG posted

RJ + Walter for Kuzma + Andre Jackson + 2031 1st + 2032 swap

No way would I do that, but this just goes to show how some players r viewed from other fanbases.

They said this trade gives them stability & an upgrade
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Re: RJ Barrett is Criminally Underrated 

Post#244 » by JB7 » Fri Jul 25, 2025 2:20 am

DreamTeam09 wrote:A bucks fan page on IG posted

RJ + Walter for Kuzma + Andre Jackson + 2031 1st + 2032 swap

No way would I do that, but this just goes to show how some players r viewed from other fanbases.

They said this trade gives them stability & an upgrade


This is a Bucks fan thinking they can get something for nothing. Much like other fans proposing trades.
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Re: RJ Barrett is Criminally Underrated 

Post#245 » by nikster » Fri Jul 25, 2025 2:42 pm

tsherkin wrote:
djsunyc wrote:


Barrett scored 0.86 PPP out of PnR sets as a ball handler this past season, which was not good. It was, in fact, outside of the top 160 guys in the league. He also wasn't top-50 in possession volume for PnR sets, either. Playmaking is pretty solid. His individual scoring was, of course, pretty rough in the main because he finished so poorly in close.

He does seem to READ the PnR pretty well to get to the bucket, though, and coupled to his passing, that makes him interesting in that regard, for sure.

those ppp stats are always a function of the team tho. RJ only played half his minutes with Poeltl, the only Pick and roll finisher on the team. Among those minuted he only spent half with Scottie on the floor. He was doing this on a team with some of the worst spacing in the league and lineups filled with rookies and 2nd year players, most who are known for what they bring on defense.

Not saying that he's great, and i wouldn't call him a "maestro", but i think he's a lot better than those numbers suggest. Think his TS% bump with Scottie speak to how much he is improved by playing beside talent
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Re: RJ Barrett is Criminally Underrated 

Post#246 » by GLF » Fri Jul 25, 2025 2:55 pm

nikster wrote:
tsherkin wrote:
djsunyc wrote:


Barrett scored 0.86 PPP out of PnR sets as a ball handler this past season, which was not good. It was, in fact, outside of the top 160 guys in the league. He also wasn't top-50 in possession volume for PnR sets, either. Playmaking is pretty solid. His individual scoring was, of course, pretty rough in the main because he finished so poorly in close.

He does seem to READ the PnR pretty well to get to the bucket, though, and coupled to his passing, that makes him interesting in that regard, for sure.

those ppp stats are always a function of the team tho. RJ only played half his minutes with Poeltl, the only Pick and roll finisher on the team. Among those minuted he only spent half with Scottie on the floor. He was doing this on a team with some of the worst spacing in the league and lineups filled with rookies and 2nd year players, most who are known for what they bring on defense.

Not saying that he's great, and i wouldn't call him a "maestro", but i think he's a lot better than those numbers suggest. Think his TS% bump with Scottie speak to how much he is improved by playing beside talent


I also think when Samson made that video it was pretty early in the season when his PnR numbers were higher. As the season went on and more guys started coming back and they stopped using the PnR with him and Jakob as much things changed
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Re: RJ Barrett is Criminally Underrated 

Post#247 » by tsherkin » Fri Jul 25, 2025 2:59 pm

nikster wrote:those ppp stats are always a function of the team tho.


No, they're a function of his poor ability to actually finish at the rim.

Not saying that he's great, and i wouldn't call him a "maestro", but i think he's a lot better than those numbers suggest. Think his TS% bump with Scottie speak to how much he is improved by playing beside talent


RJ's TS% bump was about doing literally nothing but shooting inside 3 feet, so that even his below-average finishing rate raised his raw FG% to a high-enough level to overcome his other issues. Hopefully, that's something we can replicate by lowering his overall volume this year.

But no, at some point, you're either good enough to score at a decent level or you aren't, and RJ's shot-making ability isn't there enough to excuse his issues with team context. That's more for deciding upper bound, not for deciding if a guy should be able to score well inside a given set. Remember what I said, he was PUTRID at that set, not just kinda bad/below average. That's on him, not the team.

I like RJ, I hope he can succeed with us because he's a Toronto guy and he seems a nice person, but there's no need for BS excuses.
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Re: RJ Barrett is Criminally Underrated 

Post#248 » by nikster » Fri Jul 25, 2025 3:25 pm

tsherkin wrote:
nikster wrote:those ppp stats are always a function of the team tho.


No, they're a function of his poor ability to actually finish at the rim.

Not saying that he's great, and i wouldn't call him a "maestro", but i think he's a lot better than those numbers suggest. Think his TS% bump with Scottie speak to how much he is improved by playing beside talent


RJ's TS% bump was about doing literally nothing but shooting inside 3 feet, so that even his below-average finishing rate raised his raw FG% to a high-enough level to overcome his other issues. Hopefully, that's something we can replicate by lowering his overall volume this year.

But no, at some point, you're either good enough to score at a decent level or you aren't, and RJ's shot-making ability isn't there enough to excuse his issues with team context. That's more for deciding upper bound, not for deciding if a guy should be able to score well inside a given set. Remember what I said, he was PUTRID at that set, not just kinda bad/below average. That's on him, not the team.

I like RJ, I hope he can succeed with us because he's a Toronto guy and he seems a nice person, but there's no need for BS excuses.

Obviously it's a function of his own skill but team makes a huge impact on those stats. I dont know how to separate by play type, but his overall ppp went from 0.87 with Scottie on the bench to 1.05 with Scottie on the floor (0.95 overall), Thats a pretty huge change. And that bump in his TS% with scottie is not just volume, he shoots a lot better from 3 with Scottie on the floor. If he gets a similar bump to his ppp on pick and roll with better players around him that puts him around 0.96 which is around top 80. Players like Tatum, CP3, Trae young and Devin Booker around that range.
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Re: RJ Barrett is Criminally Underrated 

Post#249 » by tsherkin » Fri Jul 25, 2025 3:29 pm

nikster wrote:Obviously it's a function of his own skill but team makes a huge impact on those stats. I dont know how to separate by play type, but his overall ppp went from 0.87 with Scottie on the bench to 1.05 with Scottie on the floor (0.95 overall), Thats a pretty huge change.


Yes, his overall efficiency improves considerably when playing off of others. This is known. This is what we are banking on. But that has no application to the pick and roll, or rather to his scoring as the ball handler therein.

So, rather than shifting goalposts, let's focus on the set we were discussing. If you want to broaden out to the idea of his scoring overall, you'll find me more receptive to the idea of hoping that RJ will look better this upcoming season... because I have been talking about his performance in context since the trade happened.
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Re: RJ Barrett is Criminally Underrated 

Post#250 » by nikster » Fri Jul 25, 2025 4:16 pm

tsherkin wrote:
nikster wrote:Obviously it's a function of his own skill but team makes a huge impact on those stats. I dont know how to separate by play type, but his overall ppp went from 0.87 with Scottie on the bench to 1.05 with Scottie on the floor (0.95 overall), Thats a pretty huge change.


Yes, his overall efficiency improves considerably when playing off of others. This is known. This is what we are banking on. But that has no application to the pick and roll, or rather to his scoring as the ball handler therein.

So, rather than shifting goalposts, let's focus on the set we were discussing. If you want to broaden out to the idea of his scoring overall, you'll find me more receptive to the idea of hoping that RJ will look better this upcoming season... because I have been talking about his performance in context since the trade happened.

How does it have no application to the pick and roll? Ppp is looking at how the team scored overall in those possessions, not just the individual player. Even then, A strong roll man like Poeltl will draw gravity and make it easier for the ball handler to finish, shooters will draw out help defenders and create more spacing. And of course, a roll man that finishes his attempts at a higher rate will lead to the higher ppp, as will shooters that knock down more of their shots.
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Re: RJ Barrett is Criminally Underrated 

Post#251 » by tsherkin » Fri Jul 25, 2025 4:20 pm

nikster wrote:How does it have no application to the pick and roll?


Scottie isn't a spacer and he isn't a good screener. RJ isn't running with him when RJ is running PnR. Scottie is 100% irrelevant to RJ's PnR play.

Don't know why you're talking about Poeltl when we were talking about Scottie.
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Re: RJ Barrett is Criminally Underrated 

Post#252 » by MEDIC » Fri Jul 25, 2025 4:58 pm

nikster wrote:
tsherkin wrote:
djsunyc wrote:


Barrett scored 0.86 PPP out of PnR sets as a ball handler this past season, which was not good. It was, in fact, outside of the top 160 guys in the league. He also wasn't top-50 in possession volume for PnR sets, either. Playmaking is pretty solid. His individual scoring was, of course, pretty rough in the main because he finished so poorly in close.

He does seem to READ the PnR pretty well to get to the bucket, though, and coupled to his passing, that makes him interesting in that regard, for sure.

those ppp stats are always a function of the team tho. RJ only played half his minutes with Poeltl, the only Pick and roll finisher on the team. Among those minuted he only spent half with Scottie on the floor. He was doing this on a team with some of the worst spacing in the league and lineups filled with rookies and 2nd year players, most who are known for what they bring on defense.

Not saying that he's great, and i wouldn't call him a "maestro", but i think he's a lot better than those numbers suggest. Think his TS% bump with Scottie speak to how much he is improved by playing beside talent


Well said.

I keep saying it. Let's evaluate these players after a season.of playing with healrhy talent, better/ more experienced talent, & playing for a coach that is actually trying to win.
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Re: RJ Barrett is Criminally Underrated 

Post#253 » by tsherkin » Fri Jul 25, 2025 5:02 pm

MEDIC wrote:Well said.


It wasn't well said at all, though.

I keep saying it. Let's evaluate these players after a season.of playing with healrhy talent, better/ more experienced talent, & playing for a coach that is actually trying to win.


This is valid. This is something I've been onboard with the whole time. We haven't had an offensive context like we should enjoy at the start of the season for quite some time, so we have some room to see how certain players react and perform in that new environment. It should prove illuminating, perhaps as much as precisely HOW Darko chooses to deploy everyone.
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Re: RJ Barrett is Criminally Underrated 

Post#254 » by nikster » Fri Jul 25, 2025 6:04 pm

tsherkin wrote:
nikster wrote:How does it have no application to the pick and roll?


Scottie isn't a spacer and he isn't a good screener. RJ isn't running with him when RJ is running PnR. Scottie is 100% irrelevant to RJ's PnR play.

Don't know why you're talking about Poeltl when we were talking about Scottie.

My original point was how talent in general will improve it. Scottie doesnt have to be direftly involved in the pand R (tho he can be the occasional roll man), but he draws attention and can capitalize on 4 on 3 situations that a pick and roll might create, either himself or with the secondary passer, get offensive rebounds etc.. all those things go into ppp.

some of the other leaders in those RJ and Poeltl minutes were Davion Mitchel, Shead, Boucher and Mogbo. Barnes is a massive improvement over those even if he's not the best fit as a roller or spacer.
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Re: RJ Barrett is Criminally Underrated 

Post#255 » by tsherkin » Fri Jul 25, 2025 6:10 pm

nikster wrote:My original point was how talent in general will improve it. Scottie doesnt have to be direftly involved in the pand R (tho he can be the occasional roll man), but he draws attention and can capitalize on 4 on 3 situations that a pick and roll might create, either himself or with the secondary passer, get offensive rebounds etc.. all those things go into ppp.


We were talking about RJ's on/off with Scottie.

Meantime, separate from that, RJ's own poor scoring is the largest problem here. His finishing ability, his FT shooting, his inability to pull up effectively... these are all much more consequential issues than his teammates in that set.
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Re: RJ Barrett is Criminally Underrated 

Post#256 » by Merit » Fri Jul 25, 2025 11:02 pm

Shakril wrote:Nobody is underrating RJ. He is simply the odd man out. The current starting lineup of: Poeltl, Barnes, RJ, BI and IQ will not work. Poeltl, Barnes, BI and IQ are set in stone. RJ is the only one that can be replaced, for example a defensive player.


I like Ochai’s shooting and defense as much as you, but there’s no way Ochai starts over RJ.

I really like the offensive power of our starters, and it seems as though our aggressive defensive scheme will continue with them as well.
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Re: RJ Barrett is Criminally Underrated 

Post#257 » by Merit » Fri Jul 25, 2025 11:03 pm

earthtone wrote:It's draft season and the off-season, so there's a lot of talk about roster building and how to construct the team for next year. One constant I've noticed in a lot of these discussions is that RJ Barrett is confusingly, (near criminally) underrated by a large segment of the fan base. His play as a Raptor has been a lot closer to All-Star level than to 'toxic asset' or salary dump levels, and the negativity about his contract, skill set, and ability to fit within this roster, don't seem to match up with his on-court play.

In a January 2024 press conference, the first after the OG Anunoby & Pascal Siakam trades, Masai had this to say about the acquisition of RJ:
We're trying to teach him to play in a different way and I think he's going to get better at it. We already see it. His shooting will get better and we continue to grow from there...
He's 23 years old you know, and I think sometimes these players are put in those kind of situations... Sometimes right in the beginning of their careers they're not in the right situation to be honest, and we're hoping with him that was the case.

The Knicks were one of the most successful teams in the league this past year, but this current Knicks organization isn't the same one RJ was drafted to. RJ was drafted to a Knicks franchise that had won 1 playoff series in the past 19 years, and had a history of poor asset management, and even worse player development. Even with his struggles and inefficient play as a Knick, he's still pretty comfortably in their top three best draft picks of the past 30 years, and was a big part of their resurgence back to respectability. While on his rookie contract he helped lead the Knicks to two playoff appearances including their first playoff series win in a decade, but his impact was muted by his inconsistent shooting, poor shot-selection/playmaking, and lacklustre defense.

    RJ's Knicks career lasted 4.5 seasons from ages 19-23, and he averaged 18.1 PPG, 5.3 RPG, 2.8 APG, shooting 34% from three with a .476 EFG%. He averaged -2.4 BPM, -0.9 VORP, and a negative EPM while with the organization.

RJ finished that season playing 32 games for the Raptors, averaging 21/6/4/ while shooting a scorching 39% from three and .601 EFG%. He followed that extremely hot end to the season with a great showing for Canada in the Olympics. Over 4 games, RJ averaged 20/4/3 while shooting 43% from 3PT, showcasing great defense and looking like one of the best players in the world on the global stage.

His hot shooting didn't translate over to the 2024-25 season, but he continued to improve in many aspects of his game. He led the team in drives, and his relentless rim-pressure combined with his improvement as a ball-handler allowed him to create paint touches and will and draw gravity that unlocked his potential as a shooter. At a point mid-season, the RJ + Jakob pick & roll was one of the most efficient plays in the NBA, and RJ showed off a much improved shot diet -going from 46% on 2's as a Knick to 55% as a Raptor - and a huge leap in playmaking ability, nearly doubling his assist percentage from 13.4 in NY, to 24.5 in TOR.

He made significant strides in effort and consistency, using ways to utilize his strength and contact balance as an on-ball defender, and was much more engaged and active playing passing lanes and rotating to plug driving lanes as a help defender. He had his first season with a positive BPM and he had the highest WPA of his career.

    He finished the 2024-25 season as a 24 year old averaging 21.1 points, 6.3 rebounds, and 5.4 assists, shooting 36% from three with a .522 EFG%. He finished the season a positive BPM and VORP for the first time in his career.

Over the past 5 years, there have been 30 total players to average 20/5/5 in a season. Out of those 30 players, 28 have made an all-star team at least once in their career. The only two that haven't are Malcolm Brogdon, and RJ Barrett. The rest are in the perennial all-star/All-NBA tier of player, and even if you're not sold on RJ becoming that calibre of player, he's not being paid like one. Of all the players in this list signed to a contract for next season, RJ will be making the 2nd lowest-salary, after only Jalen Williams who's still on his rookie contract and is a lock to be signed to a Rookie Scale Max at the end of this playoff run.

RJ's is efficiency is below average, but his raw production is fantastic, and his efficiency after 90 games as a Raptor is already leaps and bounds better than it was a Knick, and still has a lot of time to improve.

From Masai at this year's end of season press conference:
I think RJ plays different from how he played in New York. His team focus. We're working on our offense and I think our offense will get better as we grow. We have that focus of playing together, and playing the right way, and attacking the game, and it's really built our culture.

... He told on himself. He can defend now.


When we traded for RJ, the plan was to get him to adapt to a more efficient play style, become a better playmaker, and improve his defense. Fifteen months later, I think it's hard to make the case he hasn't done that. We have a hometown kid who's improved in literally every counting stat and efficiency & impact metric since joining the Raptors, and he'll only be 25 years old for the entirety of next season.

I don't think his contract is a detriment to the team. He'll be the 66th highest paid player in the league this season, and with his next contract not kicking in until the 2027-2028 season, I'd happily sign him to a long-term extension this offseason. With his current growth curve and trajectory since joining the franchise, I think it's much more likely he'll play at, or above the cost of a $30 mil/yr extension than he'll play below it. I think he's a great fit with this roster, and I'm excited to watch him continue to grow and hopefully win some playoff games as a Raptor next year.


bonus: RJ and SGA are friends.
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Re: RJ Barrett is Criminally Underrated 

Post#258 » by tsherkin » Fri Jul 25, 2025 11:28 pm

earthtone wrote:When we traded for RJ, the plan was to get him to adapt to a more efficient play style, become a better playmaker, and improve his defense. Fifteen months later, I think it's hard to make the case he hasn't done that. We have a hometown kid who's improved in literally every counting stat and efficiency & impact metric since joining the Raptors, and he'll only be 25 years old for the entirety of next season.


So because Merit just quoted this, I'll address it again.

Fifteen months later, we've seen him improve as a playmaker and suck less on defense, this is true. But we've seen the limitations of his scoring game on FULL display. He's still not a good finisher at the rim, he still can't shoot from basically anywhere but the right corner, he had his worst season ever from the FT line and even an 80% FT shooting season wouldn't have saved it. We learned that basically the only way to get him scoring efficiently is to fully ban him from shooting anywhere but at the rim or from 3 when he's clicking, and that limits how much we can reasonably drag out of him volume-wise, because carefully-curated shot selection is basically impossible to do on significant volume.

So while he provides a lot of rim pressure with sub-par finishing and quality draw rate, there's a limit to how much we can use that because we sink possessions with his inefficiency and his inability to take advantage at the line.

He's young, and we're all hopeful that he can unscrew his various deficiencies, but there has to be the thought rattling around that he is who he is to some extent. Major changes in a player's mid/late 20s aren't USUALLY the way player development works.

We'll see, though. Quick and BI, lots more 3pt shooting available to us this year. Maybe some development from Walter and Gradey. CMB screening and doing his thing, ORBs and all. Maybe it helps RJ get easier lanes to the basket. More corner 3s. Who knows what could happen?

Hope springs eternal.
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Re: RJ Barrett is Criminally Underrated 

Post#259 » by DreamTeam09 » Fri Jul 25, 2025 11:35 pm

tsherkin wrote:
MEDIC wrote:Well said.


It wasn't well said at all, though.

I keep saying it. Let's evaluate these players after a season.of playing with healrhy talent, better/ more experienced talent, & playing for a coach that is actually trying to win.


This is valid. This is something I've been onboard with the whole time. We haven't had an offensive context like we should enjoy at the start of the season for quite some time, so we have some room to see how certain players react and perform in that new environment. It should prove illuminating, perhaps as much as precisely HOW Darko chooses to deploy everyone.


If this is your mindstate then how are you arguing PPP stats & refuting context ?
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Re: RJ Barrett is Criminally Underrated 

Post#260 » by tsherkin » Fri Jul 25, 2025 11:44 pm

DreamTeam09 wrote:If this is your mindstate then how are you arguing PPP stats & refuting context ?


Because there is a limit to what the context will change. We're hopeful it'll be good, but it's not going to take him from like top 170 into any kind of real level of dangerous competence.

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