Zatzman: This era of the Raptors depends massively on Brandon Ingram

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

They weren't tanking from game 1 of the season, they just had injuries to important players, the early schedule was completely brutal, and the team was bad. You don't play Scottie 37 minutes in a loss to Minnesota or 38 minutes in a loss to Miami. Or RJ Barrett 42.5 Minutes in an overtime loss to the Celtics. Or Jak 37.5 minutes in the next game against Indiana (a win). All of these games were early in the season when, yes, Darko was trying to win games, yes, the team was trying to win games, they just weren't very good at it.

If they were tanking on purpose...it makes it worse. That means they're bad at their job. They couldn't even do that right.

Aside from trading away all of their assets for draft picks, which leads to a prolonged and uncertain tank strategy, what else would you have proposed for them doing?

Just sitting their core 4 the whole year? I would imagine the league would punish them for that blatant of a tanking strategy.

The problem is, none of it makes sense. The whole thing was handled poorly from the beginning.

They botched Scottie, they botched Fred etc, etc. Like, 2019 onward. It's en-crapiffication.

[ConSarnit]

I think at some point, we just need to accept that this is what we've got, and see where we go from here. We've been dog-ass for a while now, so we have to hope we'll be healthy for a bit. Enjoy some > .500 seasons and some playoff games. Then see what management can do to extend that run and better the team.

We can't just always be less than thrilled with everything, because we already know from years and decades of the sport that there are ebbs and flows, and that rebuilding is a process which relies heavily upon luck. And yes, sometimes you pull the trigger too quickly, but ultimately, you can't expect a fan base to back you if you just suck ass forever and pray for picks to turn out.

The issue is that we’ve constructed a team where there is no guarantee we make the playoffs. The play-in, sure. If Ingrams health doesn’t hold up (not a great bet) we’re a low 40’s win team fighting for the 8th seed. We’ve seemingly built a team with limited upside that feels like a team that will have to be rebuilt in 2-3 years after we’ve accomplished very little. The idea that we can be the “6th seed” is great but it’s coming at a time when the East is extremely down. Earning the 6th seed this season should not really be a feather in anyone’s cap given how the East’s upper echelon has been destroyed by injury. The core of this team feels like one of a team that will easily get supplanted in the standings once the likes of IND, BOS and PHI (a big maybe) return to health.

Now, I say this as someone who doesn’t really care about the fanbase. I want to compete for titles. I get that the organization/ownership might have other goals. If those goals are building a 1st round and out team for the sake of maintaining fan interest then I am not going to be very supportive of that model.

You are making a silly mistake by assuming that we exit the rebuild as a future contender, or we will have to rebuild again.

2019 and plenty of other teams recently have shown that this kind of a predetermination of a team's future outcomes is a fallacy.

Us achieving 6th seed doesn't need to be a feather in our cap; it can be a means for us to improve the value of our roster so that we are in a better to make future trades.

The notion that you must exit a rebuild with a roster so talented that future contention is assured is terrible way to build a franchise.

Plenty of other teams? Like who?

Every title winning team has had an MVP level player on it. We don’t have anyone on this team that projects to being even close to that.

This idea that we can trade for a star is perhaps the least reasonable take of all. The Kawhi trade is an anomaly in the history of the league. No small-mid market team has ever been able to pull off a similar trade. The idea that we can put ourselves in a position to trade for a true #1 is not based in any type of reality. The trade landscape has changed massively and we are nowhere near the drivers seat. There are multiple teams with superior asset bases. There are multiple teams with superior asset bases who also play in major markets. The Giannis “dream” was largely based around his connection to Masai, who is no longer with the team.

Consider the following when acting as a proponent of trading for a star: in 2026 or 2026 some combination of the Lakers, Clippers, Heat and Nets will have max cap space. Now consider the asset base of other “desirable” markets like HOU and SAS which are equal to or better than ours. Then consider teams like OKC or UTA who clearly have better asset bases in a trade for a star. When we traded for Kawhi in 2018 none of these conditions existed. The competition level and price has gone up massively in trades. We have not done anything to build that base in comparison to other teams. If a major free agent hits the trade market (or free agency) over the next 2-3 years we are nowhere close to being in a position to make the best offer.

You need an MVP level player to win a title. You can get one three ways: draft, trade, free agency. Free agency is never going to happen. I just outlined why we are not in a good position to trade for one in a post-AD/PG trade world where prices have skyrocketed. That leaves the draft. Finding those high level players is more tenable outside the top 10 but it’s still a long shot. We basically have NO shot when it comes to trade/free agency.

If we are hoping to pull off another Kawhi level trade to return to contention we have not put ourselves in position to do so given how the trade landscape has changed. This doesn’t even touch on the fact that we completely half-assed our rebuild in the first place, which has been litigated to death.

You do not have to exit a rebuild with a roster assured of contention. There is no guarantee of great outcomes in a rebuild. BUT you do need to exit it in a better spot than having the 13th and 9th picks after missing the playoffs 3 years in a row. Or having key pieces returned being (likely) overpaid mid-tier players (RJ and IQ). Or your best player being on a 2 year deal (Ingram). These are poor outcomes from not making the playoffs for 3 straight years.

[JB7]

If they were tanking on purpose...it makes it worse. That means they're bad at their job. They couldn't even do that right.

Aside from trading away all of their assets for draft picks, which leads to a prolonged and uncertain tank strategy, what else would you have proposed for them doing?

Just sitting their core 4 the whole year? I would imagine the league would punish them for that blatant of a tanking strategy.

The problem is, none of it makes sense. The whole thing was handled poorly from the beginning.

They botched Scottie, they botched Fred etc, etc. Like, 2019 onward. It's en-crapiffication.

Masai's plan, even going back to the Kawhi trade, was targeting Giannis. But that blew up when the Bucks won their championship, and Giannis resigned with them. There are some things you can't control.

So they scrambled into a different strategy. They got lucky getting the 4th pick (in the Tampa tank season) and choose Scottie, and they weren't so lucky in the draft this past season and the season prior, but made the best of the situation.

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

Aside from trading away all of their assets for draft picks, which leads to a prolonged and uncertain tank strategy, what else would you have proposed for them doing?

Just sitting their core 4 the whole year? I would imagine the league would punish them for that blatant of a tanking strategy.

The problem is, none of it makes sense. The whole thing was handled poorly from the beginning.

They botched Scottie, they botched Fred etc, etc. Like, 2019 onward. It's en-crapiffication.

Masai's plan, even going back to the Kawhi trade, was targeting Giannis. But that blew up when the Bucks won their championship, and Giannis resigned with them. There are some things you can't control.

So they scrambled into a different strategy. They got lucky getting the 4th pick (in the Tampa tank season) and choose Scottie, and they weren't so lucky in the draft this past season and the season prior, but made the best of the situation.

The best explanation I've heard as to why he was let go, other than the obvious (results). Was that he spent more time on Giants than GMing.

[tsherkin]

Every title winning team has had an MVP level player on it. We don’t have anyone on this team that projects to being even close to that.

We do not. I imagine the hope is that, much as it was with our actual title from 2019, we find a trade opportunity after internal development. Because prior to the Kawhi trade, we had no legitimate prospects for contention either, and no MVP-in-waiting type of talent on the roster.

This idea that we can trade for a star is perhaps the least reasonable take of all. The Kawhi trade is an anomaly in the history of the league.

It was an anomaly. But Shai wasn't Shai when OKC acquired him from the Clippers after he'd been the 11th overall pick. Giannis and Kawhi were both drafted 15th. And those are pick ranges which are potentially acquirable in trade.

So we can focus on acquiring picks in trades, developing internal assets and see where that takes us. Kind of like exactly what our prospects were prior to 2019 anyway. But we cannot dwell at the bottom of the league persistently. That isn't a viable model.

[ConSarnit]

If they were tanking on purpose...it makes it worse. That means they're bad at their job. They couldn't even do that right.

Aside from trading away all of their assets for draft picks, which leads to a prolonged and uncertain tank strategy, what else would you have proposed for them doing?

Just sitting their core 4 the whole year? I would imagine the league would punish them for that blatant of a tanking strategy.

The problem is, none of it makes sense. The whole thing was handled poorly from the beginning.

They botched Scottie, they botched Fred etc, etc. Like, 2019 onward. It's en-crapiffication.

It was just bad management all around. The core was untenable from not just an eventual salary standpoint but also a free agency standpoint. The risk was way too high to try and keep a middling team together. When 4 of your key players (Siakam, OG, FVV and Trent) are all unrestricted within a year period there is a very good chance you lose one (or more) for nothing (as happened with Fred). There was also a very good chance that many would be in line for over payments due to their clean fit across the league (as we saw play out with both FVV and OG).

So many signs were pointing to this not working: being 4 games under .500 before the Poeltl trade. Unrestricted free agency looming. The potential of bloated contracts. Barnes and Siakam overlap. Why the FO hung on so long I’ll never know.

At this point I wish someone from Rogers would come out and tell us their mandate. If it’s “we want to try and make the playoffs every year” then at least I can understand why these moves were made. What I will never understand is how Masai could comment “playin for what?” and then make a trade directly counter to that idea (Poeltl). It only really makes sense if there is a top down order to start every year trying to make the playoffs.

[JB7]

The issue is that we’ve constructed a team where there is no guarantee we make the playoffs. The play-in, sure. If Ingrams health doesn’t hold up (not a great bet) we’re a low 40’s win team fighting for the 8th seed. We’ve seemingly built a team with limited upside that feels like a team that will have to be rebuilt in 2-3 years after we’ve accomplished very little. The idea that we can be the “6th seed” is great but it’s coming at a time when the East is extremely down. Earning the 6th seed this season should not really be a feather in anyone’s cap given how the East’s upper echelon has been destroyed by injury. The core of this team feels like one of a team that will easily get supplanted in the standings once the likes of IND, BOS and PHI (a big maybe) return to health.

Now, I say this as someone who doesn’t really care about the fanbase. I want to compete for titles. I get that the organization/ownership might have other goals. If those goals are building a 1st round and out team for the sake of maintaining fan interest then I am not going to be very supportive of that model.

You are making a silly mistake by assuming that we exit the rebuild as a future contender, or we will have to rebuild again.

2019 and plenty of other teams recently have shown that this kind of a predetermination of a team's future outcomes is a fallacy.

Us achieving 6th seed doesn't need to be a feather in our cap; it can be a means for us to improve the value of our roster so that we are in a better to make future trades.

The notion that you must exit a rebuild with a roster so talented that future contention is assured is terrible way to build a franchise.

Plenty of other teams? Like who?

Every title winning team has had an MVP level player on it. We don’t have anyone on this team that projects to being even close to that.

This idea that we can trade for a star is perhaps the least reasonable take of all. The Kawhi trade is an anomaly in the history of the league. No small-mid market team has ever been able to pull off a similar trade. The idea that we can put ourselves in a position to trade for a true #1 is not based in any type of reality. The trade landscape has changed massively and we are nowhere near the drivers seat. There are multiple teams with superior asset bases. There are multiple teams with superior asset bases who also play in major markets. The Giannis “dream” was largely based around his connection to Masai, who is no longer with the team.

Consider the following when acting as a proponent of trading for a star: in 2026 or 2026 some combination of the Lakers, Clippers, Heat and Nets will have max cap space. Now consider the asset base of other “desirable” markets like HOU and SAS which are equal to or better than ours. Then consider teams like OKC or UTA who clearly have better asset bases in a trade for a star. When we traded for Kawhi in 2018 none of these conditions existed. The competition level and price has gone up massively in trades. We have not done anything to build that base in comparison to other teams. If a major free agent hits the trade market (or free agency) over the next 2-3 years we are nowhere close to being in a position to make the best offer.

You need an MVP level player to win a title. You can get one three ways: draft, trade, free agency. Free agency is never going to happen. I just outlined why we are not in a good position to trade for one in a post-AD/PG trade world where prices have skyrocketed. That leaves the draft. Finding those high level players is more tenable outside the top 10 but it’s still a long shot. We basically have NO shot when it comes to trade/free agency.

If we are hoping to pull off another Kawhi level trade to return to contention we have not put ourselves in position to do so given how the trade landscape has changed. This doesn’t even touch on the fact that we completely half-assed our rebuild in the first place, which has been litigated to death.

You do not have to exit a rebuild with a roster assured of contention. There is no guarantee of great outcomes in a rebuild. BUT you do need to exit it in a better spot than having the 13th and 9th picks after missing the playoffs 3 years in a row. Or having key pieces returned being (likely) overpaid mid-tier players (RJ and IQ). Or your best player being on a 2 year deal (Ingram). These are poor outcomes from not making the playoffs for 3 straight years.

The only MVP level player the Raps could possibly get is SGA. And that is not because of the assets the Raps have to offer being superior. Like all other cases, it will be because the player wants to go to a preferred destination = SGA coming home.

Let's see how the OKC situation plays out, now that Chet and J-Dub have been maxed. I would anticipate that OKC will start to shed players like IH & Dort (after next season), who are significant contributors to that team. Once SGA sees the team being stripped down, and players he is close to are moved, he might get to a point where he asks to be moved, if OKC cannot compete in the deep West.

The other alternative you seem to allude to is drafting this type of star, but even with a FO that has done an amazing job drafting, picking out these future stars at 18 years old is very difficult. Otherwise players like Luka, Giannis, Joker, SGA, Curry, Kawhi, etc. would have all not gone as low as they did in the draft.

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

Aside from trading away all of their assets for draft picks, which leads to a prolonged and uncertain tank strategy, what else would you have proposed for them doing?

Just sitting their core 4 the whole year? I would imagine the league would punish them for that blatant of a tanking strategy.

The problem is, none of it makes sense. The whole thing was handled poorly from the beginning.

They botched Scottie, they botched Fred etc, etc. Like, 2019 onward. It's en-crapiffication.

It was just bad management all around. The core was untenable from not just an eventual salary standpoint but also a free agency standpoint. The risk was way too high to try and keep a middling team together. When 4 of your key players (Siakam, OG, FVV and Trent) are all unrestricted within a year period there is a very good chance you lose one (or more) for nothing (as happened with Fred). There was also a very good chance that many would be in line for over payments due to their clean fit across the league (as we saw play out with both FVV and OG).

So many signs were pointing to this not working: being 4 games under .500 before the Poeltl trade. Unrestricted free agency looming. The potential of bloated contracts. Barnes and Siakam overlap. Why the FO hung on so long I’ll never know.

At this point I wish someone from Rogers would come out and tell us their mandate. If it’s “we want to try and make the playoffs every year” then at least I can understand why these moves were made. What I will never understand is how Masai could comment “playin for what?” and then make a trade directly counter to that idea (Poeltl). It only really makes sense if there is a top down order to start every year trying to make the playoffs.

Death by a thousand papercuts. Lots of little bad moves, by a man with divided attention.

[JB7]

Aside from trading away all of their assets for draft picks, which leads to a prolonged and uncertain tank strategy, what else would you have proposed for them doing?

Just sitting their core 4 the whole year? I would imagine the league would punish them for that blatant of a tanking strategy.

The problem is, none of it makes sense. The whole thing was handled poorly from the beginning.

They botched Scottie, they botched Fred etc, etc. Like, 2019 onward. It's en-crapiffication.

It was just bad management all around. The core was untenable from not just an eventual salary standpoint but also a free agency standpoint. The risk was way too high to try and keep a middling team together. When 4 of your key players (Siakam, OG, FVV and Trent) are all unrestricted within a year period there is a very good chance you lose one (or more) for nothing (as happened with Fred). There was also a very good chance that many would be in line for over payments due to their clean fit across the league (as we saw play out with both FVV and OG).

So many signs were pointing to this not working: being 4 games under .500 before the Poeltl trade. Unrestricted free agency looming. The potential of bloated contracts. Barnes and Siakam overlap. Why the FO hung on so long I’ll never know.

At this point I wish someone from Rogers would come out and tell us their mandate. If it’s “we want to try and make the playoffs every year” then at least I can understand why these moves were made. What I will never understand is how Masai could comment “playin for what?” and then make a trade directly counter to that idea (Poeltl). It only really makes sense if there is a top down order to start every year trying to make the playoffs.

The Poeltl trade wasn't just about that play-in. It was an opportunity to fill a hole that was glaring in the lineup. The team proved they couldn't be competitive without a legit C. The fact that Yak has been resigned twice since that trade proves his acquisition wasn't just about that play-in, which everyone seems to focus on. Having a legit C sets the floor for a team. The wings determine the ceiling.

[ConSarnit]

Every title winning team has had an MVP level player on it. We don’t have anyone on this team that projects to being even close to that.

We do not. I imagine the hope is that, much as it was with our actual title from 2019, we find a trade opportunity after internal development. Because prior to the Kawhi trade, we had no legitimate prospects for contention either, and no MVP-in-waiting type of talent on the roster.

This idea that we can trade for a star is perhaps the least reasonable take of all. The Kawhi trade is an anomaly in the history of the league.

It was an anomaly. But Shai wasn't Shai when OKC acquired him from the Clippers after he'd been the 11th overall pick. Giannis and Kawhi were both drafted 15th. And those are pick ranges which are potentially acquirable in trade.

So we can focus on acquiring picks in trades, developing internal assets and see where that takes us. Kind of like exactly what our prospects were prior to 2019 anyway. But we cannot dwell at the bottom of the league persistently. That isn't a viable model.

When have we done this? We traded OG for role players. We traded out of the first round for Thad. We gave up a future 1st for Poeltl. We traded Siakam for picks and then flipped them for Agbaji/Olynyk and Ingram. Based
on our actions we are not in the business of stacking draft picks, at least not 1sts.

Part of the reason we have a low upside future is because we did NOT dwell at the very bottom. Missing the playoffs 3 years in a row and ending up with the 13th and 9th pick is not bottom dwelling. It’s dwelling the middle.

[tsherkin]

When have we done this?

I was talking about going forward. I thought the tense implied that pretty clearly.

Part of the reason we have a low upside future is because we did NOT dwell at the very bottom. Missing the playoffs 3 years in a row and ending up with the 13th and 9th pick is not bottom dwelling. It’s dwelling the middle.

Well, yes and no. We were the 4th-worst team in the East in 2024, and 5th-worst this year. We just didn't sell enough enough assets to out-tank the crappiest teams in the league. That's not really "the middle," that's poor luck in the lottery.

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

The problem is, none of it makes sense. The whole thing was handled poorly from the beginning.

They botched Scottie, they botched Fred etc, etc. Like, 2019 onward. It's en-crapiffication.

It was just bad management all around. The core was untenable from not just an eventual salary standpoint but also a free agency standpoint. The risk was way too high to try and keep a middling team together. When 4 of your key players (Siakam, OG, FVV and Trent) are all unrestricted within a year period there is a very good chance you lose one (or more) for nothing (as happened with Fred). There was also a very good chance that many would be in line for over payments due to their clean fit across the league (as we saw play out with both FVV and OG).

So many signs were pointing to this not working: being 4 games under .500 before the Poeltl trade. Unrestricted free agency looming. The potential of bloated contracts. Barnes and Siakam overlap. Why the FO hung on so long I’ll never know.

At this point I wish someone from Rogers would come out and tell us their mandate. If it’s “we want to try and make the playoffs every year” then at least I can understand why these moves were made. What I will never understand is how Masai could comment “playin for what?” and then make a trade directly counter to that idea (Poeltl). It only really makes sense if there is a top down order to start every year trying to make the playoffs.

The Poeltl trade wasn't just about that play-in. It was an opportunity to fill a hole that was glaring in the lineup. The team proved they couldn't be competitive without a legit C. The fact that Yak has been resigned twice since that trade proves his acquisition wasn't just about that play-in, which everyone seems to focus on. Having a legit C sets the floor for a team. The wings determine the ceiling.

The Poeltl trade went sideways, because they forgot Fred could walk. It's like, you probably shouldn't build your future on multiple variables like that.

[ConSarnit]

The problem is, none of it makes sense. The whole thing was handled poorly from the beginning.

They botched Scottie, they botched Fred etc, etc. Like, 2019 onward. It's en-crapiffication.

It was just bad management all around. The core was untenable from not just an eventual salary standpoint but also a free agency standpoint. The risk was way too high to try and keep a middling team together. When 4 of your key players (Siakam, OG, FVV and Trent) are all unrestricted within a year period there is a very good chance you lose one (or more) for nothing (as happened with Fred). There was also a very good chance that many would be in line for over payments due to their clean fit across the league (as we saw play out with both FVV and OG).

So many signs were pointing to this not working: being 4 games under .500 before the Poeltl trade. Unrestricted free agency looming. The potential of bloated contracts. Barnes and Siakam overlap. Why the FO hung on so long I’ll never know.

At this point I wish someone from Rogers would come out and tell us their mandate. If it’s “we want to try and make the playoffs every year” then at least I can understand why these moves were made. What I will never understand is how Masai could comment “playin for what?” and then make a trade directly counter to that idea (Poeltl). It only really makes sense if there is a top down order to start every year trying to make the playoffs.

The Poeltl trade wasn't just about that play-in. It was an opportunity to fill a hole that was glaring in the lineup. The team proved they couldn't be competitive without a legit C. The fact that Yak has been resigned twice since that trade proves his acquisition wasn't just about that play-in, which everyone seems to focus on. Having a legit C sets the floor for a team. The wings determine the ceiling.

So if I told you that after the Poeltl trade we’d have missed the playoffs 3 years in a row you’d still sign off on it?

There is no justifying the Poeltl trade. It was clearly a win-now trade that had resulted in zero playoff appearances. The core in which he was meant to bolster is also pretty much completely dissolved.

It’s ok to admit the Poeltl trade has been an abject failure. It’s not an insult to Poeltl, who is a fine player.

[tsherkin]

There is no justifying the Poeltl trade. It was clearly a win-now trade that had resulted in zero playoff appearances. The core in which he was meant to bolster is also pretty much completely dissolved.

Expecting a trade for a supporting cast player to guarantee postseason play seems... short-sighted to me, if I'm to be delicate about it.

The trade for Poeltl isn't a failure. The failure is the situation into which he was placed, and the development thereof. He's a fine player. He's a very useful, quality player, who clearly exerts a big impact on our team. What we need is other things to come through. Masai made some mistakes, to be sure, but that was not one of them.

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

There is no justifying the Poeltl trade. It was clearly a win-now trade that had resulted in zero playoff appearances. The core in which he was meant to bolster is also pretty much completely dissolved.

Expecting a trade for a supporting cast player to guarantee postseason play seems... short-sighted to me, if I'm to be delicate about it.

The trade for Poeltl isn't a failure. The failure is the situation into which he was placed, and the development thereof. He's a fine player. He's a very useful, quality player, who clearly exerts a big impact on our team. What we need is other things to come through. Masai made some mistakes, to be sure, but that was not one of them.

I see it as buying tires for the car they just towed away.

[tsherkin]

I see it as buying tires for the car they just towed away.

A fun analogy, but you have to start acquiring talent. He proved to be good talent. We missed on a few other things. Scottie's kind of a miss, at least by conventional draft slot expectations, though he'll ultimately be useful to us. We're in dire need of a focal driver on offense. BI gets us a lot of the way there when he's healthy... but. We've been using RJ in ways which are a little beyond what we should be doing with a guy of his demonstrated ability, shy of his performance immediately after the trade. We got rid of Siakam and OG. Wasn't hugely thrilled with those trades, I thought we should have stuck with them for a while, but there were financial considerations and other things involved, for sure. Had we not, though, we'd have definitely been able to stay good for longer with some smaller moves, and then we'd all just be bitching about not having a superstar, heh.

[OakleyDokely]

If Poeltl was just a short term rental, I'd probably worry more about it. But they obviously view him as a long term piece, and they're probably going to get 7-8 years of solid starting level C minutes out of him.

[JB7]

It was just bad management all around. The core was untenable from not just an eventual salary standpoint but also a free agency standpoint. The risk was way too high to try and keep a middling team together. When 4 of your key players (Siakam, OG, FVV and Trent) are all unrestricted within a year period there is a very good chance you lose one (or more) for nothing (as happened with Fred). There was also a very good chance that many would be in line for over payments due to their clean fit across the league (as we saw play out with both FVV and OG).

So many signs were pointing to this not working: being 4 games under .500 before the Poeltl trade. Unrestricted free agency looming. The potential of bloated contracts. Barnes and Siakam overlap. Why the FO hung on so long I’ll never know.

At this point I wish someone from Rogers would come out and tell us their mandate. If it’s “we want to try and make the playoffs every year” then at least I can understand why these moves were made. What I will never understand is how Masai could comment “playin for what?” and then make a trade directly counter to that idea (Poeltl). It only really makes sense if there is a top down order to start every year trying to make the playoffs.

The Poeltl trade wasn't just about that play-in. It was an opportunity to fill a hole that was glaring in the lineup. The team proved they couldn't be competitive without a legit C. The fact that Yak has been resigned twice since that trade proves his acquisition wasn't just about that play-in, which everyone seems to focus on. Having a legit C sets the floor for a team. The wings determine the ceiling.

So if I told you that after the Poeltl trade we’d have missed the playoffs 3 years in a row you’d still sign off on it?

There is no justifying the Poeltl trade. It was clearly a win-now trade that had resulted in zero playoff appearances. The core in which he was meant to bolster is also pretty much completely dissolved.

It’s ok to admit the Poeltl trade has been an abject failure. It’s not an insult to Poeltl, who is a fine player.

Yes, I aways liked and would still sign-off on the Poeltl trade today, and I have always argued his acquisition was not a short-term strategy, but rather a longer term one. Yak is considered one of the main players on this team. Next to Barnes and Ingram, many have said if any of these three guys go down to long-term injury, this team is screwed. Especially Yak, because at least there are other players that could somewhat fill in for Barnes or Ingram.

What did they lose in the Yak trade? Zac Edey? Or the dream that the team would have drafted Wemby?

They traded for Yak because they had a clear need at C, and they waited until the price on the trade came down before they made the deal. It just so happened that the ask for Yak dropped at the trade deadline, because the Spurs had to move off him because they had decided to go full tank in the Wemby draft year.

[Pointgod]

They weren't tanking from game 1 of the season, they just had injuries to important players, the early schedule was completely brutal, and the team was bad. You don't play Scottie 37 minutes in a loss to Minnesota or 38 minutes in a loss to Miami. Or RJ Barrett 42.5 Minutes in an overtime loss to the Celtics. Or Jak 37.5 minutes in the next game against Indiana (a win). All of these games were early in the season when, yes, Darko was trying to win games, yes, the team was trying to win games, they just weren't very good at it.

If they were tanking on purpose...it makes it worse. That means they're bad at their job. They couldn't even do that right.

Aside from trading away all of their assets for draft picks, which leads to a prolonged and uncertain tank strategy, what else would you have proposed for them doing?

Just sitting their core 4 the whole year? I would imagine the league would punish them for that blatant of a tanking strategy.

This isn’t the case if you have halfway competent management. OKC didn’t enter a prolonged tank, neither did Houston or San Antonio. What they did do is commit to the tank and gave themselves multiple opportunities in the draft to pick up talent and eventually trade for allstars. So even if Jalen Green doesn’t pan out with the second pick, you draft an allstar with the 16th pick. We should have been trying to draft the next Brandon Ingram and Poeltl, not trade for them.

[tsherkin]

This isn’t the case if you have halfway competent management. OKC didn’t enter a prolonged tank, neither did Houston or San Antonio. What they did do is commit to the tank and gave themselves multiple opportunities in the draft to pick up talent and eventually trade for allstars. So even if Jalen Green doesn’t pan out with the second pick, you draft an allstar with the 16th pick. We should have been trying to draft the next Brandon Ingram and Poeltl, not trade for them.

OKC got Shai, and he blew up into an ATG-level MVP monster. I don't know that their strategy is relevant without mentioning that part, when they acquired a former 11th-overall pick for Miles Bridges and a pair of 2nd rounders...

That matters a lot more than basically anything else.