NBA Trade Thread #13

[Chi town]

Ayo and Jalen for Lively?

[sco]

Ayo and Jalen for Lively?

Can't see DAL being interested in Jalen.

[pipfan]

Ayo and Jalen for Lively?

Can't see DAL being interested in Jalen.

Super interesting-for both teams
Irving/Ayo/DLo
Klay/Christie/Hardy
Flagg/Martin
AD/PJ Washington
Gafford/JSmith/Powell

Bulls get another core piece in Lively
Frontline of Lively/Noa/Flagg moving forward looks pretty interesting-very long and athletic

[Dez]

Ayo and Jalen for Lively?

Can't see DAL being interested in Jalen.

Super interesting-for both teams
Irving/Ayo/DLo
Klay/Christie/Hardy
Flagg/Martin
AD/PJ Washington
Gafford/JSmith/Powell

Bulls get another core piece in Lively
Frontline of Lively/Noa/Flagg moving forward looks pretty interesting-very long and athletic

Nico has made his dumb trade quota, he doesn't need to do another one.

Also good too see we get Flagg as well as Lively.

[Muzbar]

Why do people want Lively? The guy has played 91 games over 2 seasons. He's never healthy.

Pass on Lively.

[Chi town]

Why do people want Lively? The guy has played 91 games over 2 seasons. He's never healthy.

Pass on Lively.

Who else fits the young defensive C profile?

[Muzbar]

Why do people want Lively? The guy has played 91 games over 2 seasons. He's never healthy.

Pass on Lively.

Who else fits the young defensive C profile?

It's not a matter of who else. You can't play defense in street clothes.

I like Lively as a player but he's barely played half his games in 2 years.

[dpucane]

Why do people want Lively? The guy has played 91 games over 2 seasons. He's never healthy.

Pass on Lively.

I’m actually a huge fan of getting guys you can credibly sit out with mystery ailments next year.

[Muzbar]

Why do people want Lively? The guy has played 91 games over 2 seasons. He's never healthy.

Pass on Lively.

I’m actually a huge fan of getting guys you can credibly sit out with mystery ailments next year.

Now I see the appeal.

[Infinity2152]

Bulls are third in the odds to get Cam Thomas. Interesting we have no cap space either, but we're linked to 3 of the top 4 RFA's this summer. Of course one is ours, but the other two aren't. Interesting fact: between 2000-2020, 81 offers have been given to RFA's, about 4 a year. Since 2020, there have been 4 offers made in total. More RFA's will inevitably take the QO. Last RFA to get an offer was Paul Reed in 2023.

[sco]

Bulls are third in the odds to get Cam Thomas. Interesting we have no cap space either, but we're linked to 3 of the top 4 RFA's this summer. Of course one is ours, but the other two aren't. Interesting fact: between 2000-2020, 81 offers have been given to RFA's, about 4 a year. Since 2020, there have been 4 offers made in total. More RFA's will inevitably take the QO. Last RFA to get an offer was Paul Reed in 2023.

Interesting...so do folks think Cam or Kuminga score a bigger deal?

Both guys fall into the Giddey bucket of interesting potential but notable flaws, and their team doesn't want to pay-up in a market with not FA $ left to spend.

IMO both Kuminga and Thomas strike me as guys who will be replaced by their next team in a year or two because you can't really move forward with their flaws.

[2weekswithpay]

Why do people want Lively? The guy has played 91 games over 2 seasons. He's never healthy.

Pass on Lively.

Good, young, cheap, and cost controlled for another two seasons.

[Infinity2152]

Look at the starting roster of each NBA team. Which teams have a roster where there is not at least one, maybe two players in their starting lineup with easily identifiable flaws? I think it's impossible to build a team WITHOUT flawed players in today's NBA, not with. A team full of starters without obvious flaws might be last year's Celtics, how much did that team cost again? If they're putting up numbers, and don't show flaws, they're getting maxed. Can't build a team with all max players.

Part of why this Giddey debate doesn't make a lot of sense. The logic is Giddey doesn't deserve $30 mill because he' not a great three point shooter, or great defender. Giddey as a great shooter OR great defender gets a rookie max contract, outside this crazy market. Maybe even with it. Imo.

Maybe this is why almost every trade idea gets shot down in here, guys are waiting for perfect players at discount prices in a competitive market. I've probably proposed 8-10 trades, Jaylen Brown, Jrue Holiday, Jimmy Butler, Desmond Bane, Zion Williamson, Kevin Durant, Daniel Gafford, Derek Lively off top. All are better than the guys we currently have in the position, most by a lot. This players too old, this player's hurt too often, this player cost too much. Those are just the non-basketball flaws. How do we add a player without flaws outside a super lucky draft or a max contract?

[Dez]

They get shutdown because the other team is getting robbed 99 percent of the time.

[Infinity2152]

They get shutdown because the other team is getting robbed 99 percent of the time.

Incorrect. if it was just a matter of price, that's negotiable. It's rarely about the price. You are right in that a lot of people in here have very strong opinions on what they think other teams will do. For some reason. It's fair for AK to lowball Giddey with an offer, but he should open with the highest offer possible when trading for a free agent, lmao!

Give me an example of the other team getting robbed. Two trades were Coby White for Derek Lively or Daniel Gafford, with a pick coming with Gafford. That's Dallas getting robbed? Vucevic for Jalen Green is Phoenix getting robbed? They save like $30 mill real money. Same with Vucevic for Simons. Celtics are not getting robbed.

I specifically put trades I think are in the ballpark of value and people arrogantly assume they know what other teams are looking for, what they will accept, and there is no negotiation possible. It's opinion vs opinion on what a team will accept. Sure any trade proposal you put up, if you ever do, there will be someone somewhere who says, "The other team will never do it!".

The question is usually "Should the Bulls do the trade?", not will the other team accept the proposed offer. Offers are flexible.

[Dez]

Coby for Gafford and a pick is robbery, Coby is due a new contract and has a skill-set that is more common in the league.

Gafford has a good deal and has a skill-set that is more desirable in a more valued position.

[Infinity2152]

Coby for Gafford and a pick is robbery, Coby is due a new contract and has a skill-set that is more common in the league.

Gafford has a good deal and has a skill-set that is more desirable in a more valued position.

How much do you want to bet Coby's next contract is bigger than Gafford's? The amount of money teams pay shows how much a player is valued. Like there aren't a lot of athletic bigs who can't shoot? Are you kidding me? Gafford's so desired, he was on his third team by 25.

Mavs have Anthony Davis, Derrick Lively, Daniel Gafford, Cooper Flagg, and PJ Washington as their bigs. Now where is their 20 PTs/gm 37% 3pt SG? Since it's so common. They have at least 3 bigs likely as good or better than Gafford. He'll be lucky to see 20 minutes a game without one of their bigs getting traded.

For some reason, 3pt shooting 18+ pt scoring guards always get paid. Gafford type players do not, at least not nearly as often. But good to see you have your thumb on what the league values, even if it's not reflected in contracts. Minutes also reflect value, Gafford's played over 22 minutes 1 year in his career, a whopping 24.5.

Sure, the ability to shoot is more common. That's because players who can't shoot usually find their way out of the league. Plus pretty sure I proposed the deal before Gafford got his new contract, and pushed for it more after. He was expiring too, but he took an extension for 3yrs/$54 mill. He averaged 21.5 minutes last year, and that's with Lively only playing 36 games, AD wasn't there half the year, and Flagg wasn't on the team. So in your opinion, a 20 minute per game guy getting almost $20 mill/yr is a good deal. OK.

Coby's also younger than Gafford. There's still potential upside.

Thanks. This is exactly what I was talking about a person being so certain of their valuations of players, and so certain they know how other teams value BOTH players, that they argue why it's bad for Dallas instead of the actual question: "Should the Bulls do it?". Whether Dallas would do it wasn't even the question. If you don't want to contribute to the actual answer, because you think it's impossible, cool. Generally it's people who never actually propose trades, just spend time downing other's trade ideas. It's literally all hypothetical. Your opinions of player values is YOUR opinion. Not every team in the league's opinion. Would be more relevant if answering the question actually asked.

[2weekswithpay]

Look at the starting roster of each NBA team. Which teams have a roster where there is not at least one, maybe two players in their starting lineup with easily identifiable flaws? I think it's impossible to build a team WITHOUT flawed players in today's NBA, not with. A team full of starters without obvious flaws might be last year's Celtics, how much did that team cost again? If they're putting up numbers, and don't show flaws, they're getting maxed. Can't build a team with all max players.

Part of why this Giddey debate doesn't make a lot of sense. The logic is Giddey doesn't deserve $30 mill because he' not a great three point shooter, or great defender. Giddey as a great shooter OR great defender gets a rookie max contract, outside this crazy market. Maybe even with it. Imo.

Maybe this is why almost every trade idea gets shot down in here, guys are waiting for perfect players at discount prices in a competitive market. I've probably proposed 8-10 trades, Jaylen Brown, Jrue Holiday, Jimmy Butler, Desmond Bane, Zion Williamson, Kevin Durant, Daniel Gafford, Derek Lively off top. All are better than the guys we currently have in the position, most by a lot. This players too old, this player's hurt too often, this player cost too much. Those are just the non-basketball flaws. How do we add a player without flaws outside a super lucky draft or a max contract?

His weaknesses are a part of it, but people think Giddey isn't that good yet. You may disagree, but I don't think we should hand him 30M AAV just because Quickley and Suggs were given those contracts. I can go more in-depth, but Giddey's weaknesses have a two-fold effect of limiting his upside and making him an awkward fit. I don't expect perfection, but not all flaws are equal.

I believe you're correct in saying people are too picky on trades, but I think that's due to the team's current position. Nobody wants another Vuc trade where we give up assets for a player that doesn't move the needle and get us out of mediocrity.

[Infinity2152]

Look at the starting roster of each NBA team. Which teams have a roster where there is not at least one, maybe two players in their starting lineup with easily identifiable flaws? I think it's impossible to build a team WITHOUT flawed players in today's NBA, not with. A team full of starters without obvious flaws might be last year's Celtics, how much did that team cost again? If they're putting up numbers, and don't show flaws, they're getting maxed. Can't build a team with all max players.

Part of why this Giddey debate doesn't make a lot of sense. The logic is Giddey doesn't deserve $30 mill because he' not a great three point shooter, or great defender. Giddey as a great shooter OR great defender gets a rookie max contract, outside this crazy market. Maybe even with it. Imo.

Maybe this is why almost every trade idea gets shot down in here, guys are waiting for perfect players at discount prices in a competitive market. I've probably proposed 8-10 trades, Jaylen Brown, Jrue Holiday, Jimmy Butler, Desmond Bane, Zion Williamson, Kevin Durant, Daniel Gafford, Derek Lively off top. All are better than the guys we currently have in the position, most by a lot. This players too old, this player's hurt too often, this player cost too much. Those are just the non-basketball flaws. How do we add a player without flaws outside a super lucky draft or a max contract?

His weaknesses are a part of it, but people think Giddey isn't that good yet. You may disagree, but I don't think we should hand him 30M AAV just because Quickley and Suggs were given those contracts. I can go more in-depth, but Giddey's weaknesses have a two-fold effect of limiting his upside and making him an awkward fit. I don't expect perfection, but not all flaws are equal.

I believe you're correct in saying people are too picky on trades, but I think that's due to the team's current position. Nobody wants another Vuc trade where we give up assets for a player that doesn't move the needle and get us out of mediocrity.

Trust me, I'm perfectly fine with not giving $30 mill up front. It's more than the numbers, there appears to be no movement. Don't even know the numbers, just rumors. But both sides should be professional. They went into this knowing the other position. Waiting months to come to a decision when very little is likely to change is just not negotiating to me. I'd expect Giddey to settle around $26-$27 mill, but that's just my opinion.

Both sides will hopefully be dealing with each other for years. Both sides knew their gameplan and what they would accept before free agency begins. I think the Bulls would come up from $22 mill. I hope they would at least. I'd hope a multibillion-dollar corporation would make the first move, show some initiative, rather than waiting for a 22-year-old and his agent to blink.

$30 mill tag has nothing to do with Suggs or Quickley, although I think Giddey will be better than both. We're looking at a 4-5 year contract with the cap raising 7to 10% a year. $30 mill is like average starter pay now. There are guys who will make more than double that. $30 mill now is not a lot of money, and you pay for upside with 22-year-olds. It's always been that way, if Giddey wasn't restricted he'd be gone now or we'd have paid him.

It's ok it hasn't happened yet, would feel far better if it sounded like either one plans to move.

[Dez]

Coby for Gafford and a pick is robbery, Coby is due a new contract and has a skill-set that is more common in the league.

Gafford has a good deal and has a skill-set that is more desirable in a more valued position.

How much do you want to bet Coby's next contract is bigger than Gafford's? The amount of money teams pay shows how much a player is valued. Like there aren't a lot of athletic bigs who can't shoot? Are you kidding me? Gafford's so desired, he was on his third team by 25.

Mavs have Anthony Davis, Derrick Lively, Daniel Gafford, Cooper Flagg, and PJ Washington as their bigs. Now where is their 20 PTs/gm 37% 3pt SG? Since it's so common. They have at least 3 bigs likely as good or better than Gafford. He'll be lucky to see 20 minutes a game without one of their bigs getting traded.

For some reason, 3pt shooting 18+ pt scoring guards always get paid. Gafford type players do not, at least not nearly as often. But good to see you have your thumb on what the league values, even if it's not reflected in contracts. Minutes also reflect value, Gafford's played over 22 minutes 1 year in his career, a whopping 24.5.

Sure, the ability to shoot is more common. That's because players who can't shoot usually find their way out of the league. Plus pretty sure I proposed the deal before Gafford got his new contract, and pushed for it more after. He was expiring too, but he took an extension for 3yrs/$54 mill. He averaged 21.5 minutes last year, and that's with Lively only playing 36 games, AD wasn't there half the year, and Flagg wasn't on the team. So in your opinion, a 20 minute per game guy getting almost $20 mill/yr is a good deal. OK.

Coby's also younger than Gafford. There's still potential upside.

Thanks. This is exactly what I was talking about a person being so certain of their valuations of players, and so certain they know how other teams value BOTH players, that they argue why it's bad for Dallas instead of the actual question: "Should the Bulls do it?". Whether Dallas would do it wasn't even the question. If you don't want to contribute to the actual answer, because you think it's impossible, cool. Generally it's people who never actually propose trades, just spend time downing other's trade ideas. It's literally all hypothetical. Your opinions of player values is YOUR opinion. Not every team in the league's opinion. Would be more relevant if answering the question actually asked.

AD doesn't like playing the 5.

Flagg is a 3/4.

Washington is a 4.

Lively is the only one that limits Gafford's minutes.

Coby will probably get more and instantly become a bad contract.