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Zatzman: This era of the Raptors depends massively on Brandon Ingram

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Re: Zatzman: This era of the Raptors depends massively on Brandon Ingram 

Post#201 » by Harcore Fenton Mun » Fri Jul 25, 2025 7:40 pm

JB7 wrote:
Harcore Fenton Mun wrote:
JB7 wrote:
You are too focused on the money he is getting paid relative to his production. To make a trade work, salaries are needed. BI might not be worth the value of his contract relative to the other player coming back, but that isn't completely the point. That other player might want out, or the team wants him out, and they just need contracts to match, plus other assets. The fact that BI's deal is only 2 year plus an option means there is not a long term commitment there. By the trade deadline, or next season, his deal looks more like an expiring deal.

If you think he has a "Best before" date, it's a bad trade. We're going to eat one of those three years, unfortunately.


BI is going into his 28, 29 and 30 years. Plus he is looking for his last big contract. He is fully incentivized to be healthy and play well. Raps are probably getting him for his best years. You would think he has learned through experience by now, and his body is fully developed, and hopefully healthy.

If his health doesn't hold up, then yes they are probably eating a bad contract for a year. But the deal is short enough it could be used as an expiring deal, if another team is looking to shed salary.

I hope you're right. They were asking NO for max(47M), that's wild.
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Re: Zatzman: This era of the Raptors depends massively on Brandon Ingram 

Post#202 » by ATLTimekeeper » Fri Jul 25, 2025 7:43 pm

ConSarnit wrote:
ATLTimekeeper wrote:For reference, the Poeltl trade cost us all the players between Rob Dillingham and JaKobe Walter.

The Ingram trade is unknown but it wasn't a good pick at the time of the trade.

I think they lost on the Poeltl trade, it was a worst-case scenario in terms of the pick but they still get Poeltl, who is very good.


It also cost us 4-5 draft slots in the 2023 draft. Then there are also other downstream effects. Do we start out worse in 2024 without Poeltl and therefor improve our 2024 pick? Do we move earlier off of Siakam and OG?

The Poeltl trade caused us to hang on to trying to win for longer than we should have. Without Poeltl we probably pick in the top 10 in 2023. We pick top 10 in 2024. 2025 who knows given what other roster moves we’d make.

Poeltl helped us win at time when we should not have been focused on winning. Not Poeltl’s fault at all but definitely doesn’t help the long term outlook of the franchise.


Oh what? It cost us the picks between Jarace Walker and Gradey Dick?

In 2024 we started off pretty badly. They tried to trade Siakam in the summer and botched that. It had nothing to do with Jakob Poeltl. They could have also traded OG, seems like they tried to over the course of that stretch as well.
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Re: Zatzman: This era of the Raptors depends massively on Brandon Ingram 

Post#203 » by Psubs » Fri Jul 25, 2025 7:54 pm

ATLTimekeeper wrote:
ConSarnit wrote:
ATLTimekeeper wrote:For reference, the Poeltl trade cost us all the players between Rob Dillingham and JaKobe Walter.

The Ingram trade is unknown but it wasn't a good pick at the time of the trade.

I think they lost on the Poeltl trade, it was a worst-case scenario in terms of the pick but they still get Poeltl, who is very good.


It also cost us 4-5 draft slots in the 2023 draft. Then there are also other downstream effects. Do we start out worse in 2024 without Poeltl and therefor improve our 2024 pick? Do we move earlier off of Siakam and OG?

The Poeltl trade caused us to hang on to trying to win for longer than we should have. Without Poeltl we probably pick in the top 10 in 2023. We pick top 10 in 2024. 2025 who knows given what other roster moves we’d make.

Poeltl helped us win at time when we should not have been focused on winning. Not Poeltl’s fault at all but definitely doesn’t help the long term outlook of the franchise.


Oh what? It cost us the picks between Jarace Walker and Gradey Dick?

In 2024 we started off pretty badly. They tried to trade Siakam in the summer and botched that. It had nothing to do with Jakob Poeltl. They could have also traded OG, seems like they tried to over the course of that stretch as well.


We would have drafted Zach Edey! Much rather have Edey on a rookie contract than Poeltl set to make $25 million in 2026.
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Re: Zatzman: This era of the Raptors depends massively on Brandon Ingram 

Post#204 » by ciueli » Fri Jul 25, 2025 8:50 pm

Psubs wrote:
ATLTimekeeper wrote:
ConSarnit wrote:
It also cost us 4-5 draft slots in the 2023 draft. Then there are also other downstream effects. Do we start out worse in 2024 without Poeltl and therefor improve our 2024 pick? Do we move earlier off of Siakam and OG?

The Poeltl trade caused us to hang on to trying to win for longer than we should have. Without Poeltl we probably pick in the top 10 in 2023. We pick top 10 in 2024. 2025 who knows given what other roster moves we’d make.

Poeltl helped us win at time when we should not have been focused on winning. Not Poeltl’s fault at all but definitely doesn’t help the long term outlook of the franchise.


Oh what? It cost us the picks between Jarace Walker and Gradey Dick?

In 2024 we started off pretty badly. They tried to trade Siakam in the summer and botched that. It had nothing to do with Jakob Poeltl. They could have also traded OG, seems like they tried to over the course of that stretch as well.


We would have drafted Zach Edey! Much rather have Edey on a rookie contract than Poeltl set to make $25 million in 2026.


I really wanted Buzelis, it's a crime he fell all the way to 11 in a weak draft. Solid first season and looks like a player with a lot of room to grow, that was a real lifeline for Chicago.
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Re: Zatzman: This era of the Raptors depends massively on Brandon Ingram 

Post#205 » by StopitLeo » Fri Jul 25, 2025 9:01 pm

ConSarnit wrote:
ATLTimekeeper wrote:For reference, the Poeltl trade cost us all the players between Rob Dillingham and JaKobe Walter.

The Ingram trade is unknown but it wasn't a good pick at the time of the trade.

I think they lost on the Poeltl trade, it was a worst-case scenario in terms of the pick but they still get Poeltl, who is very good.


It also cost us 4-5 draft slots in the 2023 draft. Then there are also other downstream effects. Do we start out worse in 2024 without Poeltl and therefor improve our 2024 pick? Do we move earlier off of Siakam and OG?

The Poeltl trade caused us to hang on to trying to win for longer than we should have. Without Poeltl we probably pick in the top 10 in 2023. We pick top 10 in 2024. 2025 who knows given what other roster moves we’d make.

Poeltl helped us win at time when we should not have been focused on winning. Not Poeltl’s fault at all but definitely doesn’t help the long term outlook of the franchise.


We have no idea what the long term outlook of the franchise will be when there is so much damn luck involved in being successful in the draft or in the league period.

All these hypothetical top 10 picks from not trading for Poeltl are nice but we could just as easily miss on all the picks and be in a worse position today.
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Re: Zatzman: This era of the Raptors depends massively on Brandon Ingram 

Post#206 » by Tripod » Fri Jul 25, 2025 9:45 pm

Odd how it's always "I wanted xxxx" and it's always a guy exceeding expectations.

:wink:
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Re: Zatzman: This era of the Raptors depends massively on Brandon Ingram 

Post#207 » by rim_killa » Fri Jul 25, 2025 9:49 pm

imagine he ends up being amazing
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Re: Zatzman: This era of the Raptors depends massively on Brandon Ingram 

Post#208 » by tsherkin » Fri Jul 25, 2025 9:53 pm

rim_killa wrote:imagine he ends up being amazing


It would be awesome, right?
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Re: Zatzman: This era of the Raptors depends massively on Brandon Ingram 

Post#209 » by The Duke » Fri Jul 25, 2025 9:59 pm

We’re not in a position to win a playoff season, likely regardless what BI does.

We messed up the last 3 yrs, with not much to show for it in terms of real core stud pieces. We just have guys.
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Re: Zatzman: This era of the Raptors depends massively on Brandon Ingram 

Post#210 » by rim_killa » Fri Jul 25, 2025 11:14 pm

tsherkin wrote:
rim_killa wrote:imagine he ends up being amazing


It would be awesome, right?


kawhi 2.0 ?
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Re: Zatzman: This era of the Raptors depends massively on Brandon Ingram 

Post#211 » by rim_killa » Fri Jul 25, 2025 11:16 pm

The Duke wrote:We’re not in a position to win a playoff season, likely regardless what BI does.

We messed up the last 3 yrs, with not much to show for it in terms of real core stud pieces. We just have guys.


beal
kd
booker

that worked...
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Re: Zatzman: This era of the Raptors depends massively on Brandon Ingram 

Post#212 » by tsherkin » Fri Jul 25, 2025 11:17 pm

rim_killa wrote:
tsherkin wrote:
rim_killa wrote:imagine he ends up being amazing


It would be awesome, right?


kawhi 2.0 ?


No, he's no where near that good. But he should be a big lift for our O, no doubt.
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Re: Zatzman: This era of the Raptors depends massively on Brandon Ingram 

Post#213 » by DreamTeam09 » Fri Jul 25, 2025 11:42 pm

The Duke wrote:We’re not in a position to win a playoff season, likely regardless what BI does.

We messed up the last 3 yrs, with not much to show for it in terms of real core stud pieces. We just have guys.


Your issue is you're factoring name recognition as if that matters when the ball jumps. The guys we have, have to be accounted for or else. Again we won 30+ not trying + battling injuries. Name recognition only matters to the refs
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Re: Zatzman: This era of the Raptors depends massively on Brandon Ingram 

Post#214 » by ConSarnit » Sat Jul 26, 2025 12:54 am

DreamTeam09 wrote:
The Duke wrote:We’re not in a position to win a playoff season, likely regardless what BI does.

We messed up the last 3 yrs, with not much to show for it in terms of real core stud pieces. We just have guys.


Your issue is you're factoring name recognition as if that matters when the ball jumps. The guys we have, have to be accounted for or else. Again we won 30+ not trying + battling injuries. Name recognition only matters to the refs


Where are you getting that “plus” from on the 30?
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Re: Zatzman: This era of the Raptors depends massively on Brandon Ingram 

Post#215 » by ConSarnit » Sat Jul 26, 2025 12:57 am

StopitLeo wrote:
ConSarnit wrote:
ATLTimekeeper wrote:For reference, the Poeltl trade cost us all the players between Rob Dillingham and JaKobe Walter.

The Ingram trade is unknown but it wasn't a good pick at the time of the trade.

I think they lost on the Poeltl trade, it was a worst-case scenario in terms of the pick but they still get Poeltl, who is very good.


It also cost us 4-5 draft slots in the 2023 draft. Then there are also other downstream effects. Do we start out worse in 2024 without Poeltl and therefor improve our 2024 pick? Do we move earlier off of Siakam and OG?

The Poeltl trade caused us to hang on to trying to win for longer than we should have. Without Poeltl we probably pick in the top 10 in 2023. We pick top 10 in 2024. 2025 who knows given what other roster moves we’d make.

Poeltl helped us win at time when we should not have been focused on winning. Not Poeltl’s fault at all but definitely doesn’t help the long term outlook of the franchise.


We have no idea what the long term outlook of the franchise will be when there is so much damn luck involved in being successful in the draft or in the league period.

All these hypothetical top 10 picks from not trading for Poeltl are nice but we could just as easily miss on all the picks and be in a worse position today.


How could we just as easily miss? We are generally one of the best drafting teams in the league. What odds would you give us for missing 3 top 10 picks in a row? Sorry, this is a bad argument.
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Re: Zatzman: This era of the Raptors depends massively on Brandon Ingram 

Post#216 » by Tha Cynic » Sat Jul 26, 2025 1:10 am

Every team's era massively relies on one or two players.
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Re: Zatzman: This era of the Raptors depends massively on Brandon Ingram 

Post#217 » by tsherkin » Sat Jul 26, 2025 1:30 am

Tha Cynic wrote:Every team's era massively relies on one or two players.


Absolutely.
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Re: Zatzman: This era of the Raptors depends massively on Brandon Ingram 

Post#218 » by djsunyc » Sat Jul 26, 2025 1:54 am

have any of you had a parent or partner constantly bringing up old stuff in a fight that was already dealt with? it's annoying right? how they can't get past stuff.

that is this forum in a nutshell.

turn the page you idiots. stop rehashing the same sh t over and over.
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Re: Zatzman: This era of the Raptors depends massively on Brandon Ingram 

Post#219 » by Harcore Fenton Mun » Sat Jul 26, 2025 2:03 am

djsunyc wrote:have any of you had a parent or partner constantly bringing up old stuff in a fight that was already dealt with? it's annoying right? how they can't get past stuff.

that is this forum in a nutshell.

turn the page you idiots. stop rehashing the same sh t over and over.

This is the new stuff.
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Re: Zatzman: This era of the Raptors depends massively on Brandon Ingram 

Post#220 » by deck » Sat Jul 26, 2025 2:54 am

ConSarnit wrote:
deck wrote:
ConSarnit wrote:
The issue is that we’ve constructed a team where there is no guarantee we make the playoffs. The play-in, sure. If Ingrams health doesn’t hold up (not a great bet) we’re a low 40’s win team fighting for the 8th seed. We’ve seemingly built a team with limited upside that feels like a team that will have to be rebuilt in 2-3 years after we’ve accomplished very little. The idea that we can be the “6th seed” is great but it’s coming at a time when the East is extremely down. Earning the 6th seed this season should not really be a feather in anyone’s cap given how the East’s upper echelon has been destroyed by injury. The core of this team feels like one of a team that will easily get supplanted in the standings once the likes of IND, BOS and PHI (a big maybe) return to health.

Now, I say this as someone who doesn’t really care about the fanbase. I want to compete for titles. I get that the organization/ownership might have other goals. If those goals are building a 1st round and out team for the sake of maintaining fan interest then I am not going to be very supportive of that model.


You are making a silly mistake by assuming that we exit the rebuild as a future contender, or we will have to rebuild again.

2019 and plenty of other teams recently have shown that this kind of a predetermination of a team's future outcomes is a fallacy.

Us achieving 6th seed doesn't need to be a feather in our cap; it can be a means for us to improve the value of our roster so that we are in a better to make future trades.

The notion that you must exit a rebuild with a roster so talented that future contention is assured is terrible way to build a franchise.


Plenty of other teams? Like who?


2025 - Indiana
2023 - Miami and Denver
2020 - Miami
2019 - Toronto

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