Allowing your star to GM: worst possible move?

[ConSarnit]

You say Giannis pushed for Dame, yes but he’s also the one that pushed for Jrue, which is what put us over the top. If you wanna point to his failings, you gotta point to the fact that he had success with that move too.

Is there any evidence that Giannis was the one pushing for these guys? From all of the reporting I’ve seen it’s been implied that Giannis (smartly) used his impending free agency to pressure the Bucks to make some type of big move but I’ve never heard that Giannis was actually pushing for any specific players.

It feels (to me) as though Giannis has used his leverage the best out of almost any star. He’s pressured the front office to make non-specific moves based on the threat of him leaving while also using his impending free agency as a tool to increase MIL’s trade package because at the time the picks looked more valuable because Giannis was a threat to walk. He pretty much extended immediately after both the Jrue and Dame trades were made which could back up this theory.

I don’t know if this was planned but this is the playbook of what every star should be doing in the future. Pressure with limited input.

[Harry Palmer]

Stars demanding better support players is gonna happen whether you let them GM or not. With greater free agency this would be less of an issue, but with stars fortunes and legacies unalterably tied to the competence of their management, I’m not sure what fans expect to happen. We’ve seen careers defined by a player’s inability to win championships when competing against stacked decks, and so have NBA players. We either need to not credit players with stacked teams or discredit players without them, or we need to understand that this is kind of all they can do about what is otherwise beyond their control but on their slate.

As for the rest of the concept, it’s not ideal that in terms of drafting, scouting, etc. but can be a boon when it comes to attracting other stars. Which in the NBA can make a huge difference. But obviously only 3.33% of teams win each year, so mostly that’ll fail too. If given my choices I’d prefer an organization competent enough that that isn’t needed, but even that can be insufficient with a player’s inability to with enough stature. But on incompetent teams it can be one of your better lifelines.

[giberish]

It's not a great move, but depending on the circumstances and can be worthwhile. The biggest key is just how good the star is. Getting a prime LeBron on your team is such a huge win that having to deal with some LeGM issues is still easily worth it. But getting stars who are only on the level of being worth a max contract (as opposed to still being a major bargain on a max deal like MVP level guys) aren't worth putting up with having them be player-GM.

[Bucks4005]

You say Giannis pushed for Dame, yes but he’s also the one that pushed for Jrue, which is what put us over the top. If you wanna point to his failings, you gotta point to the fact that he had success with that move too.

Is there any evidence that Giannis was the one pushing for these guys? From all of the reporting I’ve seen it’s been implied that Giannis (smartly) used his impending free agency to pressure the Bucks to make some type of big move but I’ve never heard that Giannis was actually pushing for any specific players.

It feels (to me) as though Giannis has used his leverage the best out of almost any star. He’s pressured the front office to make non-specific moves based on the threat of him leaving while also using his impending free agency as a tool to increase MIL’s trade package because at the time the picks looked more valuable because Giannis was a threat to walk. He pretty much extended immediately after both the Jrue and Dame trades were made which could back up this theory.

I don’t know if this was planned but this is the playbook of what every star should be doing in the future. Pressure with limited input.

Either way, if we reference Giannis as playing GM like the initial post did, you got reference then Jrue trade if it happened the same way as then Dame trade did. If he pressured the office for both trades without specifically requesting a specific player, then you have to reference that one of them actually worked in addition to the Dame move.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

- LeBron wanting Westbrook and then getting rid of him. Lakers paid twice for that.

oof lols, wonder what his going to be like as Legm and for real

Only time will tell

LeGM created not one, not two, but THREE DIFFERENT TITLE WINNING ROSTERS!!!!

It's stunning the "superstars suck as GMs" posters refuse to give LeBron his propers.

the greatest strength LeBron the GM had was the ability to recruit LeBron the player.
the second greatest was having his own agency have other stars force their way to play with him.
everything else was awful.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Yea I'm an MJ guy , but LeBron has been WAY better at being a GM. Not even close. Even when you ignore his awful runs with the wizards and hornets and for thread purposes and only go by as a player, his ideas were awful and he's lucky the Bulls didn't listen to him.

LeBron had LeBron. That's not being a good GM.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Call me crazy, but this is less impressive to me than winning four or more titles with the same franchise.

Cleveland and LA had stockpiled several top 4 picks over several seasons to flip into win now pieces. You wouldn’t have that luxury staying with one team and being competitive year over year. Then teaming up with two hall of fame players in the most attractive market is also not something I would praise him for.

It would be more impressive if he won three in Cleveland vs four with three different teams, two of which are the two easiest teams to win with.

Everyone says that but if it is so easy why are there greats without rings? Why are there greats without Finals appearances?

To me, switching employers and still finding success is way more impressive than the guy who found success with 1 employer once he har his right-hand man and his favorite boss.

There is something impressive about being uncomfortable, in a new city, with new co-workers, a new boss, and a new system.

One guy proved he can win in the triangle offense with Pippen by his side, in Chicago. The other guy proved he can win 3 different ways. With 3 different sidekicks. In 3 different cities.

Lol seriously? So staying with one organization and winning 2 3 peats is less impressive than team hopping/colluding with other all stars? Nobody but his stans think that.

whatever you find impressive is on you., very different situations in a very different league. jordon won three rings twice because Pippen was underpaid and Krause finding the right complementary pieces. Often going against jordon himself.
otoh Lebron forced his hand against Cleveland and used his leverage as much as he could to force the team into win now moves, to then leave after all assets had been depleted.

personally, I don't want to overvalue the 6 rings, there are several things that add into that. And I recognize LeBron tried to game the system completely disregarding the long term success of the teams he was playing for. Still, both in the top2.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

LeBron hasn’t even found the success he was truly seeking in terms of team building, which is why he’s on his 4th stop, and will probably have a 5th.

It’s debatable whether or not his short term and impatient approach has resulted in more titles than a more patient approach would have.

Co-signing this with an emphasis on the two bolds.

His machinations absolutely have not paid off like he's hoped... but it's still quite possible that he's possible he's had more team success because of it than it he's remained a good soldier for Gilbert's Cavs.

I think we also have to consider that if LeBron had been drafted onto a great franchise, it's possible he never changes franchises at all. Whatever else we say of LeBron, we shouldn't forget why it made so much sense to leave Cleveland the first time, nor be naive about what working for an inept boss early in one's career tends to do the idea of loyalty as a virtue.

very unlikely. As good as the organization is, you must accept some down years while planning for the future.
He was in Miami and he refused to do so. He's always been trying to find the best option to win in that particular year, no to build a long term relationship to win as much as he could in one place.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

You say Giannis pushed for Dame, yes but he’s also the one that pushed for Jrue, which is what put us over the top. If you wanna point to his failings, you gotta point to the fact that he had success with that move too.

Is there any evidence that Giannis was the one pushing for these guys? From all of the reporting I’ve seen it’s been implied that Giannis (smartly) used his impending free agency to pressure the Bucks to make some type of big move but I’ve never heard that Giannis was actually pushing for any specific players.

It feels (to me) as though Giannis has used his leverage the best out of almost any star. He’s pressured the front office to make non-specific moves based on the threat of him leaving while also using his impending free agency as a tool to increase MIL’s trade package because at the time the picks looked more valuable because Giannis was a threat to walk. He pretty much extended immediately after both the Jrue and Dame trades were made which could back up this theory.

I don’t know if this was planned but this is the playbook of what every star should be doing in the future. Pressure with limited input.

was it really that smart? or he pushed the Bucks to make some desperation moves condemning them to the impossibility to assemble a good team around him? even if he decides to ask out, it will be super difficult to land in a good situation as the Bucks will ask for EVERYTHING.

[Bucks4005]

You say Giannis pushed for Dame, yes but he’s also the one that pushed for Jrue, which is what put us over the top. If you wanna point to his failings, you gotta point to the fact that he had success with that move too.

Is there any evidence that Giannis was the one pushing for these guys? From all of the reporting I’ve seen it’s been implied that Giannis (smartly) used his impending free agency to pressure the Bucks to make some type of big move but I’ve never heard that Giannis was actually pushing for any specific players.

It feels (to me) as though Giannis has used his leverage the best out of almost any star. He’s pressured the front office to make non-specific moves based on the threat of him leaving while also using his impending free agency as a tool to increase MIL’s trade package because at the time the picks looked more valuable because Giannis was a threat to walk. He pretty much extended immediately after both the Jrue and Dame trades were made which could back up this theory.

I don’t know if this was planned but this is the playbook of what every star should be doing in the future. Pressure with limited input.

was it really that smart? or he pushed the Bucks to make some desperation moves condemning them to the impossibility to assemble a good team around him? even if he decides to ask out, it will be super difficult to land in a good situation as the Bucks will ask for EVERYTHING.

If he did it in the Jrue situation, yes it was, we got our first title in 50 years

[Doctor MJ]

LeBron hasn’t even found the success he was truly seeking in terms of team building, which is why he’s on his 4th stop, and will probably have a 5th.

It’s debatable whether or not his short term and impatient approach has resulted in more titles than a more patient approach would have.

Co-signing this with an emphasis on the two bolds.

His machinations absolutely have not paid off like he's hoped... but it's still quite possible that he's possible he's had more team success because of it than it he's remained a good soldier for Gilbert's Cavs.

I think we also have to consider that if LeBron had been drafted onto a great franchise, it's possible he never changes franchises at all. Whatever else we say of LeBron, we shouldn't forget why it made so much sense to leave Cleveland the first time, nor be naive about what working for an inept boss early in one's career tends to do the idea of loyalty as a virtue.

very unlikely. As good as the organization is, you must accept some down years while planning for the future.
He was in Miami and he refused to do so. He's always been trying to find the best option to win in that particular year, no to build a long term relationship to win as much as he could in one place.

Well I think that once he left Cleveland, the die was cast. Already left one team when they stagnated, so repeating the move just made sense.

I do think that LeBron was always going to look to flex his muscles to get what he wanted on whatever franchise he was on, and that meant a crossroads where he might leave was always a distinct possibility, but to me there’s always the rub that LeBron was not wrong to feel himself judged as a loser until he won a chip and to conclude the Cavs weren’t giving him a competent chance at a title.

In an ideal world we wouldn’t be so attached to chips, but we are, and so the players are too.


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[ConSarnit]

You say Giannis pushed for Dame, yes but he’s also the one that pushed for Jrue, which is what put us over the top. If you wanna point to his failings, you gotta point to the fact that he had success with that move too.

Is there any evidence that Giannis was the one pushing for these guys? From all of the reporting I’ve seen it’s been implied that Giannis (smartly) used his impending free agency to pressure the Bucks to make some type of big move but I’ve never heard that Giannis was actually pushing for any specific players.

It feels (to me) as though Giannis has used his leverage the best out of almost any star. He’s pressured the front office to make non-specific moves based on the threat of him leaving while also using his impending free agency as a tool to increase MIL’s trade package because at the time the picks looked more valuable because Giannis was a threat to walk. He pretty much extended immediately after both the Jrue and Dame trades were made which could back up this theory.

I don’t know if this was planned but this is the playbook of what every star should be doing in the future. Pressure with limited input.

Either way, if we reference Giannis as playing GM like the initial post did, you got reference then Jrue trade if it happened the same way as then Dame trade did. If he pressured the office for both trades without specifically requesting a specific player, then you have to reference that one of them actually worked in addition to the Dame move.

I think there is a massive difference between pushing your FO to make them team better vs pushing them to target specific players.

If we are operating under the assumption that Giannis leveraged his FA status to push the Bucks to get better (without requesting specific players) then that is far away from the meddling of someone like Lebron (wanting Westbrook, wanted Spo fired) or KD (who wanted Deandre in BKN and Beal in PHX).

Giannis did what every star should do imo. Passive influence is they way stars should use their power. Over and over again they've shown they can't be trusted when it comes to specific talent assessment. Let your FO make the roster decisions.

I wouldn't place Giannis in the meddling category (which is the thing that really harms teams). He hasn't really been GM'ing at all, at least not in the way guys like Lebron or Durant have.

[ConSarnit]

Co-signing this with an emphasis on the two bolds.

His machinations absolutely have not paid off like he's hoped... but it's still quite possible that he's possible he's had more team success because of it than it he's remained a good soldier for Gilbert's Cavs.

I think we also have to consider that if LeBron had been drafted onto a great franchise, it's possible he never changes franchises at all. Whatever else we say of LeBron, we shouldn't forget why it made so much sense to leave Cleveland the first time, nor be naive about what working for an inept boss early in one's career tends to do the idea of loyalty as a virtue.

very unlikely. As good as the organization is, you must accept some down years while planning for the future.
He was in Miami and he refused to do so. He's always been trying to find the best option to win in that particular year, no to build a long term relationship to win as much as he could in one place.

Well I think that once he left Cleveland, the die was cast. Already left one team when they stagnated, so repeating the move just made sense.

I do think that LeBron was always going to look to flex his muscles to get what he wanted on whatever franchise he was on, and that meant a crossroads where he might leave was always a distinct possibility, but to me there’s always the rub that LeBron was not wrong to feel himself judged as a loser until he won a chip and to conclude the Cavs weren’t giving him a competent chance at a title.

In an ideal world we wouldn’t be so attached to chips, but we are, and so the players are too.


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I think that outside of his first Cleveland run (the Cavs were one of the worst run franchises during his first tenure as seen during AND after he left) he deserves criticism.

I think in hindsight he should have learned to be patient after his MIA stint. His most successful run was in MIA and we all know Riley told him to f*ck off after he tried to get Spo fired. How much better of a position would the Lakers have been in if they just waited to sign AD as a free agent? I get that they miss a year of prime(ish) Lebron but one can only imagine what type of team they could have built had they used the AD assets to build around Lebron + AD.

It seems like Lebron's big lesson from Miami was "why won't they give my friends jobs?" instead of "hey, we won 2 titles in 4 years, maybe these guys know what they're doing"

[Black Jack]

oof lols, wonder what his going to be like as Legm and for real

Only time will tell

LeGM created not one, not two, but THREE DIFFERENT TITLE WINNING ROSTERS!!!!

It's stunning the "superstars suck as GMs" posters refuse to give LeBron his propers.

the greatest strength LeBron the GM had was the ability to recruit LeBron the player.
the second greatest was having his own agency have other stars force their way to play with him.
everything else was awful.

What was awful? he's one of the top players of all time and won rings with 3 franchises. Sounds pretty good to me.

[Doctor MJ]

very unlikely. As good as the organization is, you must accept some down years while planning for the future.
He was in Miami and he refused to do so. He's always been trying to find the best option to win in that particular year, no to build a long term relationship to win as much as he could in one place.

Well I think that once he left Cleveland, the die was cast. Already left one team when they stagnated, so repeating the move just made sense.

I do think that LeBron was always going to look to flex his muscles to get what he wanted on whatever franchise he was on, and that meant a crossroads where he might leave was always a distinct possibility, but to me there’s always the rub that LeBron was not wrong to feel himself judged as a loser until he won a chip and to conclude the Cavs weren’t giving him a competent chance at a title.

In an ideal world we wouldn’t be so attached to chips, but we are, and so the players are too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think that outside of his first Cleveland run (the Cavs were one of the worst run franchises during his first tenure as seen during AND after he left) he deserves criticism.

I think in hindsight he should have learned to be patient after his MIA stint. His most successful run was in MIA and we all know Riley told him to f*ck off after he tried to get Spo fired. How much better of a position would the Lakers have been in if they just waited to sign AD as a free agent? I get that they miss a year of prime(ish) Lebron but one can only imagine what type of team they could have built had they used the AD assets to build around Lebron + AD.

It seems like Lebron's big lesson from Miami was "why won't they give my friends jobs?" instead of "hey, we won 2 titles in 4 years, maybe these guys know what they're doing"

I agree, and I'm critical of LeBron in all of his stints after his first in Cleveland, I just think the first stint as a Cav shaped his expectations for relationships with management.

So yeah, while I don't know that LeBron would have won more titles had he stayed in Miami than the two he got after leaving Miami, that was him leaving the most competent franchise he's ever played for to this point, and if he wanted the possibility of, y'know, "not 4, not 5, not 6, not 7..." it was a mistake. He spoke as if he were thinking long-term, but his actions from that point onward always screamed short-term, and this is something I do hold against him when evaluating his career again, say, Bill Russell, who sure seemed to be the guy he was looking to allude when when he was saying "not 7" and changing his number to match Russell's (though I don't know if that's what he was thinking with the number, I'd just see it as inept if he didn't realize that he was changing to Russell's number while stating a vision for Russell-like success).