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Billy Donovan gets contract extension

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Re: Billy Donovan gets contract extension 

Post#61 » by rosenthall » Today 2:09 am

sco wrote:Billy is probably a 2nd quartile coach. I'm fine. When our roster becomes a first quarter roster, I might think differently.

My biggest beef with Billy is that he seems hellbent on starting Vuc.


This is a good way of phrasing it. I've always thought that Donovan might become a problem when the team has a roster and style of play that's so well established that it can regularly get into the playoffs.

At that point, being able to produce alpha in a 7-game playoff series becomes a really important trait for a coach. And I do think Billy would get chopped up if he had to go head-to-head with a Nick Nurse, Spo or Carlisle type in that situation. But we are optimistically three years from being in that place as a team.

And in the mean time Billy does well with most of the other functions of coaching that are useful to the team right now, so it's fine to have him on board.
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Re: Billy Donovan gets contract extension 

Post#62 » by SfBull » Today 3:25 am

Jcool0 wrote:Not surprising

Read on Twitter

Yes and another visit for the Play in Tournament won't be a surprise either.
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Re: Billy Donovan gets contract extension 

Post#63 » by SfBull » Today 3:28 am

sco wrote:Billy is probably a 2nd quartile coach. I'm fine. When our roster becomes a first quarter roster, I might think differently.

My biggest beef with Billy is that he seems hellbent on starting Vuc.

The Bulls will be a 2nd quartile team for a long time
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Re: Billy Donovan gets contract extension 

Post#64 » by SfBull » Today 3:29 am

[quote="Red8911"]This is probably the first time in professional sports where a guy gets continuously rewarded for failing.

The coach is usually the first to go with losing. Not here, the whole roster changed but him.Apparently AK/Reinsdorfs still love him for some reason.[/quote
No surprises here
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Re: Billy Donovan gets contract extension 

Post#65 » by Indomitable » Today 3:38 am

Stratmaster wrote:5 seasons. 4 of them, including the last 3, with a losing record. Overall, 10 games under .500 despite the team being 10 games over .500 4 seasons ago. OKC got rid of him after 5 seasons with a .608 record over a 5 year stretch and 5 straight playoff appearances...with 4 straight first round exits.

Lets give him his 2nd extension.

OKC did not get rid of him. He did not want to rebuild and left. They said it and he did too. Plus he actually had good years with scraps.
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Re: Billy Donovan gets contract extension 

Post#66 » by Red8911 » Today 5:00 am

coldfish wrote:He keeps getting extensions because he lets AKME dictate rotations and playing time, IMO.

I generally agree with Doug that he isn't bad. Middle of the pack and that's better than a lot of teams. He has issues with game prep and in game adjustments but his base systems are fine and he seems to be able to teach them and motivate the players.

That’s why Billy keeps his job no matter what his team does and guys like Thibs get fired. Arguably a better coach but he does what HE thinks is right and is the opposite of a yes man. He would have probably still been in Chicago if he was.
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Re: Billy Donovan gets contract extension 

Post#67 » by Jcool0 » Today 12:28 pm

For the Billy gets more out of this team then a lot of other coaches. Does he just not coach for the first 60 games and then turns it on at the end? Shouldn't they be getting off to faster starts if he had some kind of skill to get them to overachieve?
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Re: Billy Donovan gets contract extension 

Post#68 » by Am2626 » Today 12:32 pm

Red8911 wrote:This is probably the first time in professional sports where a guy gets continuously rewarded for failing.

The coach is usually the first to go with losing. Not here, the whole roster changed but him.Apparently AK/Reinsdorfs still love him for some reason.


He’s not the issue. No coach is going to come here and be able to win with this roster. That is what needs to improve and where the focus needs to be outside of changing the owner which we all know will never happen.
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Re: Billy Donovan gets contract extension 

Post#69 » by sco » Today 1:25 pm

Red8911 wrote:
coldfish wrote:He keeps getting extensions because he lets AKME dictate rotations and playing time, IMO.

I generally agree with Doug that he isn't bad. Middle of the pack and that's better than a lot of teams. He has issues with game prep and in game adjustments but his base systems are fine and he seems to be able to teach them and motivate the players.

That’s why Billy keeps his job no matter what his team does and guys like Thibs get fired. Arguably a better coach but he does what HE thinks is right and is the opposite of a yes man. He would have probably still been in Chicago if he was.

I really do wonder how much AK directs the starting line-up? Vuc being so bad is a good example, but could have been AK trying to up his trade value (totally didn't work). OTOH, Billy starting Javonte Green over IMO better options, feels very much not like AK.

I also think that Billy's MO as a coach and organizationally is that he is a relationship builder. He builds relationships and tactfully suggests (vs. Thibs who IMO is more direct). I also also think that AK is not the smartest President, and there are a lot of times when the emperor has no clothes on, and Billy will just look the other way (unlike Peter Parker/Pettigrue). And I think AK knows he's not that smart (because he seems pretty insecure on interviews), and it's why he keeps a guy like Billy around vs. focusing on a better coach (who may call him out more).
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Re: Billy Donovan gets contract extension 

Post#70 » by Lunartic » Today 2:47 pm

His mismanagement of timeouts and challenges literally costing the Bulls games should be reason enough to not extend.

Why keep him? What strengths does he have that make you say "damn, I want him coaching my team in a high-stakes playoffs game!

The Bull's aren't getting some top-tier elite FA - the only way to improve is around the margins. And Billy isn't good enough to retain his position on a consistently losing team.

Is the offense being maximized? Is the defense as good as it can be? Do the Bulls ever win games they shouldn't based on intelligent reads or tactics? Or do they rely on miraculous shots?

Has Billy ever drawn up a out of a timeout play that wowed you?

The Bulls are in development/mediocre mode and there's very little reason to have a highly paid, relatively mediocre coach running the roster. Why not take a chance on an unknown with higher upside? The same people shilling for Billy are the same ones in gamethreads raging about how Billy screwed up a rotation or sub or timeout or challenge. He's just a mediocre coach and if someone makes a general board poll, he'd be ranked in the bottom 15.
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Re: Billy Donovan gets contract extension 

Post#71 » by drosestruts » Today 2:49 pm

Jcool0 wrote:For the Billy gets more out of this team then a lot of other coaches. Does he just not coach for the first 60 games and then turns it on at the end? Shouldn't they be getting off to faster starts if he had some kind of skill to get them to overachieve?


this gets us into a lot of hypotheticals

Take 2022-23 for example: we are routinely starting Ayo and Williams for the first 2/3 of the season. After signing Patrick Beverley we shift to a starting lineup that includes both Beverley and Caruso and the team starts winning more. We'll never know if there was a mandate to play the younger guys, that than got tossed out the window when the post-season/play-in came into jeapordy which then allowed Billy to simply start his 5 bets players.


And even last season the team we started the season with was not the team we finished the season with.

Different personnel leading to different results, despite the same coach falls in line with what many here are saying - players dictate wins more than the coach.
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Re: Billy Donovan gets contract extension 

Post#72 » by Red8911 » Today 3:03 pm

Am2626 wrote:
Red8911 wrote:This is probably the first time in professional sports where a guy gets continuously rewarded for failing.

The coach is usually the first to go with losing. Not here, the whole roster changed but him.Apparently AK/Reinsdorfs still love him for some reason.


He’s not the issue. No coach is going to come here and be able to win with this roster. That is what needs to improve and where the focus needs to be outside of changing the owner which we all know will never happen.

We don’t know that. Maybe another coach would have been better or even worse. I still think the Bulls had talent with Vuc,Demar,Caruso,Zach and imo another coach would have gotten more out of that group than Billy did even without Lonzo.
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Re: Billy Donovan gets contract extension 

Post#73 » by Stratmaster » Today 3:16 pm

Indomitable wrote:
Stratmaster wrote:5 seasons. 4 of them, including the last 3, with a losing record. Overall, 10 games under .500 despite the team being 10 games over .500 4 seasons ago. OKC got rid of him after 5 seasons with a .608 record over a 5 year stretch and 5 straight playoff appearances...with 4 straight first round exits.

Lets give him his 2nd extension.

OKC did not get rid of him. He did not want to rebuild and left. They said it and he did too. Plus he actually had good years with scraps.


He didn't want to rebuild? So he came to a team with no talent? Because that is the only defense for him. "He hasn't had the talent". He just told the press and the Bulls he is excited to be part of a rebuild with the Bulls. He just took an extension to be part of a rebuild with the Bulls. What changed his mind? He and OKC parting ways was "mutual". And look where OKC is now. If that was his reason for leaving, it is just another horrible decision by Donovan.
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Re: Billy Donovan gets contract extension 

Post#74 » by Jcool0 » Today 3:25 pm

Stratmaster wrote:
Indomitable wrote:
Stratmaster wrote:5 seasons. 4 of them, including the last 3, with a losing record. Overall, 10 games under .500 despite the team being 10 games over .500 4 seasons ago. OKC got rid of him after 5 seasons with a .608 record over a 5 year stretch and 5 straight playoff appearances...with 4 straight first round exits.

Lets give him his 2nd extension.

OKC did not get rid of him. He did not want to rebuild and left. They said it and he did too. Plus he actually had good years with scraps.


He didn't want to rebuild? So he came to a team with no talent? Because that is the only defense for him. "He hasn't had the talent". He just told the press and the Bulls he is excited to be part of a rebuild with the Bulls. He just took an extension to be part of a rebuild with the Bulls. What changed his mind? He and OKC parting ways was "mutual". And look where OKC is now. If that was his reason for leaving, it is just another horrible decision by Donovan.


FWIW:

The team said in a statement that both parties mutually agreed to part ways.

Donovan's contract expired at season's end, and the sides decided against pursuing an extension.

"We had planned to sit down at the end of the season and discuss the best way to move forward for both of us," Thunder executive vice president and general manager Sam Presti said in a statement. "After those discussions, it became apparent that we couldn't provide him the information on the future direction of the team over the next several seasons to give him the level of clarity that he understandably desires at this stage of his career.

"Therefore, we close this chapter and reflect fondly on all that he has given to the team, organization and community. Billy will always have a place in the Thunder family."

Discussions between OKC management and Donovan were described as collaborative and realistic, sources said.

"This place will always be special to us. I will always hold this organization in the highest regard and wish the Thunder and their fans the success they deserve," Donovan said in a statement.

The reality of Oklahoma City's transition toward a rebuild made it a challenge for the two sides to find a way to continue together, sources said.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29840761/sources-billy-donovan-return-thunder-coach-next-season
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Re: Billy Donovan gets contract extension 

Post#75 » by MrSparkle » Today 3:44 pm

Lunartic wrote:His mismanagement of timeouts and challenges literally costing the Bulls games should be reason enough to not extend.

Why keep him? What strengths does he have that make you say "damn, I want him coaching my team in a high-stakes playoffs game!

The Bull's aren't getting some top-tier elite FA - the only way to improve is around the margins. And Billy isn't good enough to retain his position on a consistently losing team.

Is the offense being maximized? Is the defense as good as it can be? Do the Bulls ever win games they shouldn't based on intelligent reads or tactics? Or do they rely on miraculous shots?

Has Billy ever drawn up a out of a timeout play that wowed you?.


I agree. I know some people push back on this, but I absolutely think he’s a “good” coach who fumbles in-game management, pretty consistently.

The number of games blown in 22/23 speaks for itself. That was better than a 40Wteam in a bad conference, and they needed that Beverley boost. And the thing is the team had a #5 def rating and #13 net rating. All he had to do was close with Drummond and/or DJJ more often, instead of DNPing them every other night for PWilly and more Vuc.

To me, the Beverley pickup was apparent that Billy needs a strong confrontational voice in the locker-room to make up for the lack of his. I really think the head coaching job is small-part intangibles, more-part personal assertion and influence.

Also- just kind of predictable? The number of times his clutch calls (on both ends) didn’t even generate an attempt (or gave up an easy layup)? It grew tiring hearing the “doesn’t have a PG excuse.” Yeah, I’m sure between Demar, Zach and Vuc, nobody could generate a shot.

I was too young to remember Doug Collins’ Bulls stint, but from descriptions, old tape, his Sixers gig… I find him an eerily close comp to Billy. Seems to go laissez-faire on whoever has an all-star reputation, nitpicks the **** out of young/emerging roleplayers and complimentary scorers, and favors his high-motor defenders despite horrible offensive or net-rating metrics.

I don’t find issue so much with the principles, except if the goal was clearly to atleast win more than 1 playoff game in 5 years, and he’s won 1 (in an otherwise ugly blowout of a series)… while having fairly decent talent… I have a hard time seeing why he gets extended. Doesn’t seem like a “life time” coach like Pop, Spo, Riley, Phil, Sloan… who at the end of the day, knew you simply couldn’t get any more juice or wins out the lineup.

Look at Lue, who makes do with his top 2 star options often injured. No excuses there! Making playoff runs with our giveaways Dunn and DJJ.

It’s even worse that we gave up the 2 lotto picks. Knew we had no FRP coming in, and still fumbled in a weak conference with a fairly healthy veteran roster (sans Lonzo). It’s appalling TBH.
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Re: Billy Donovan gets contract extension 

Post#76 » by Red Larrivee » Today 4:11 pm

Lunartic wrote:His mismanagement of timeouts and challenges literally costing the Bulls games should be reason enough to not extend.

Why keep him? What strengths does he have that make you say "damn, I want him coaching my team in a high-stakes playoffs game!

The Bull's aren't getting some top-tier elite FA - the only way to improve is around the margins. And Billy isn't good enough to retain his position on a consistently losing team.

Is the offense being maximized? Is the defense as good as it can be? Do the Bulls ever win games they shouldn't based on intelligent reads or tactics? Or do they rely on miraculous shots?

Has Billy ever drawn up a out of a timeout play that wowed you?

The Bulls are in development/mediocre mode and there's very little reason to have a highly paid, relatively mediocre coach running the roster. Why not take a chance on an unknown with higher upside? The same people shilling for Billy are the same ones in gamethreads raging about how Billy screwed up a rotation or sub or timeout or challenge. He's just a mediocre coach and if someone makes a general board poll, he'd be ranked in the bottom 15.


Because there is a higher chance that you're hiring a complete dud.

If we could pick any coach in the league, I doubt any of us would pick Donovan. But, that's not the point or the reality. HC Rankings don't matter. You can win a championship with the 5th, 10th, 15th, 20th or 25th "best" coach. This isn't the NFL where good-to-great coaches are paramount to success.

The reality is that if you have a coach who meets the following:

1. He does not hurt the team.
2. Ownership likes him.
3. He gets along with the front office.
4. The players like him, respect him and buy into him.

Then congratulations, you've accomplished the entirety of what a good NBA HC is supposed to do. Coaches do not keep jobs because fans universally like their rotations or praise their after timeout plays. It's a lot bigger than Xs and Os. Otherwise, every team in the league would be trying to hire Tom Thibodeau right now.

This team's issues right now are tied to ownership, the front office and most important: Talent. There are valid flaws you can point out about Donovan's coaching, but those things are not the reason the Bulls are where they are, nor are they holding the team back.

AK has made a lot of dumb moves, but it's completely understandable why a struggling front office would continue holding onto a coach that has a lot more credibility than they do and has yet to lose the locker room.
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Re: Billy Donovan gets contract extension 

Post#77 » by Lunartic » 31 minutes ago

Red Larrivee wrote:
Lunartic wrote:His mismanagement of timeouts and challenges literally costing the Bulls games should be reason enough to not extend.

Why keep him? What strengths does he have that make you say "damn, I want him coaching my team in a high-stakes playoffs game!

The Bull's aren't getting some top-tier elite FA - the only way to improve is around the margins. And Billy isn't good enough to retain his position on a consistently losing team.

Is the offense being maximized? Is the defense as good as it can be? Do the Bulls ever win games they shouldn't based on intelligent reads or tactics? Or do they rely on miraculous shots?

Has Billy ever drawn up a out of a timeout play that wowed you?

The Bulls are in development/mediocre mode and there's very little reason to have a highly paid, relatively mediocre coach running the roster. Why not take a chance on an unknown with higher upside? The same people shilling for Billy are the same ones in gamethreads raging about how Billy screwed up a rotation or sub or timeout or challenge. He's just a mediocre coach and if someone makes a general board poll, he'd be ranked in the bottom 15.


Because there is a higher chance that you're hiring a complete dud.

If we could pick any coach in the league, I doubt any of us would pick Donovan. But, that's not the point or the reality. HC Rankings don't matter. You can win a championship with the 5th, 10th, 15th, 20th or 25th "best" coach. This isn't the NFL where good-to-great coaches are paramount to success.

The reality is that if you have a coach who meets the following:

1. He does not hurt the team.
2. Ownership likes him.
3. He gets along with the front office.
4. The players like him, respect him and buy into him.

Then congratulations, you've accomplished the entirety of what a good NBA HC is supposed to do. Coaches do not keep jobs because fans universally like their rotations or praise their after timeout plays. It's a lot bigger than Xs and Os. Otherwise, every team in the league would be trying to hire Tom Thibodeau right now.

This team's issues right now are tied to ownership, the front office and most important: Talent. There are valid flaws you can point out about Donovan's coaching, but those things are not the reason the Bulls are where they are, nor are they holding the team back.

AK has made a lot of dumb moves, but it's completely understandable why a struggling front office would continue holding onto a coach that has a lot more credibility than they do and has yet to lose the locker room.



I agree that Billy is low down on the totem-pole of what's immediately wrong with the team but as long as the Bulls are seemingly committed to trying to win without the requisite roster changes - Billy is still a problem.

He's a bottom half coach in this league and that does have an impact. We talk about culture and building habits. Billy habitually messes up decisions in game and seemingly doesn't know how to create an efficient offense. As long as the Bulls have high-hopes for their younger draftees, it's important the Bulls keep trying to get the absolute best coaches available. Even Thibs would be an upgrade and the Bulls would likely win 5-10 more games.

The Bulls had more talent than Miami last season and yet got exposed quickly in the play-in. The coaching gap between Billy and Spo was so great it was embarrassing.

What's the value of keeping him? Continuity is useless if you continue making bad decisions.
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Re: Billy Donovan gets contract extension 

Post#78 » by Red Larrivee » 7 minutes ago

Lunartic wrote:I agree that Billy is low down on the totem-pole of what's immediately wrong with the team but as long as the Bulls are seemingly committed to trying to win without the requisite roster changes - Billy is still a problem.

He's a bottom half coach in this league and that does have an impact. We talk about culture and building habits. Billy habitually messes up decisions in game and seemingly doesn't know how to create an efficient offense. As long as the Bulls have high-hopes for their younger draftees, it's important the Bulls keep trying to get the absolute best coaches available. Even Thibs would be an upgrade and the Bulls would likely win 5-10 more games.

The Bulls had more talent than Miami last season and yet got exposed quickly in the play-in. The coaching gap between Billy and Spo was so great it was embarrassing.

What's the value of keeping him? Continuity is useless if you continue making bad decisions.


Again, HC rankings are entirely subjective and hold no weight towards winning. I'm just going to use the CBS list someone mentioned earlier. Here's the coaches they have 16-30 (before the season started):

16. Quin Snyder
17. Taylor Jenkins
18. Jason Kidd
19. Jamahl Mosley
20. Willie Green
21. Kenny Atkinson
22. Doc Rivers
23. JB Bickerstaff
24. Billy Donovan
25. Chauncey Billups
26. Darko Rajakovic (R)
27. Jordi Fernandez (R)
28. Charles Lee (R)
29. Brian Keefe (R)
30. J.J. Redick (R)

5 of the 10 non-rookie head coaches in that list made the playoffs last season.

- Kenny Atkinson won Coach of the Year.
- Taylor Jenkins at one point had the Grizzlies looking like contenders.
- JB Bickerstaff had one of the best statistical turnarounds for a team in league history.

I'm sure everyone would have them higher now, but the point is that coaches simply aren't a huge difference maker outside of a few names. The others on the list?

- Quin Snyder has a career 56% win percentage
- Billy Donovan has a career 55% win percentage
- Willie Green almost won 50 games a year ago when he had a healthier roster.
- Jamahl Mosley has a 53% win percentage the last two seasons
- Doc Rivers has won a championship
- Jason Kidd has been to an NBA Finals.
- I've got nothing for Chauncey Billups.

These are your "bottom half" NBA coaches, most of whom are very competent.

It's a player's league, and the Bulls, like several of the teams on that list, don't have a lot of good players.

Going from Billy Donovan to Michael Malone isn't going to move the needle unless there are significant player moves that align with it. So yes, it makes sense to keep the coach who isn't rocking the boat, who ownership and the front office likes, and who the players still listen to. All of those things can completely change if you go to another coach and then you are objectively in a worse position.

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