Is KG the ultimate example of how being loyal to a lousy organization and staying with them will hurt your legacy/all ti

[DimesandKnicks]

KG is a guy who was stuck with a lousy TWolves organization that could never put a respectable contender around him. He was so damn good that he carried those teams as well as anybody could, such as carrying them to the WCF and taking 2 games off the 03-04 Lakers.

KG is a top 10 all time talent. No question about it. A number of intelligent basketball fans actually have him in the top 10. Compare him to somebody like Kobe. Kobe dictated where he went from the start. He told Calipari that he would never play for the Nets if they drafted him. He made it very clear that there were a number of teams he wouldn't play for. This resulted in him getting drafted by the Hornets and traded to the Lakers.

Most people don't knock his legacy for refusing to play for a number of teams at first. He forced his way to a GOAT franchise and was lucky enough to play with the GOAT coach and some of the most talented teams in history. He won 5 championships that way.

Nearly all casual fans have Kobe above KG. You'll at some very intelligent fans who do in depth analysis putting KG above Kobe. Overall, the real difference between their rankings is because the organizations they played for. If KG went to the Lakers, he'd have more chips and would undoubtedly be ranked higher. And vice versa, Kobe would probably have between 0 and 2 and would be ranked lower.

People love to bash players for not being "loyal". But nobody faulta Kobe for the stunt he.pulled when entering the league. Nobody gives KG extra credit for being loyal to a bad organization. In the long run it hurt KGs legacy overall. Is he the ultimate example of why players should say f*** loyalty and chase rings?

This is true about Kobe cherry picking his way to LA as a rookie, and imho this gets swept under the carpet.

But that being said....KG top 10 all time talent? What criteria does one even use to give such a label? I personally just did NOT see this with KG at all. He was like a taller rich mans Scottie Pippen.

I don't care how versatile he was or how his metrics that people on RealGM boast about are rated so highly when he couldn't take over games offensively in the playoffs and that automatically disqualifies him from any top 10 talent lists.

And on defence, it wasn't game changing enough compared to the likes of Russell or Olajuwon to make me think highly of him there.

A taller rich man’s Scottie Pippen is a top 10 talent

[Iwasawitness]

Garnett a top 10 talent lmao! As in top 10 all time? Based on what? And Dirk stuck with the Mavs his entire career and that didnt hurt his “legacy” but not that Dirk cared about “legacy” lol

Dallas wasn't a lousy organization and put Dirk in a better position to succeed. And in the end, he did in fact win one, which greatly elevated his legacy.

Not a valid comparison.

[Onlytimewilltel]

Is KG even a top 10 talent for his generation?

Wtf

[NZB2323]

Is KG even a top 10 talent for his generation?

For sure. There’s no way you could put 10 guys ahead of him.

Dirk, Duncan, and Kobe are the only ones who have arguments over him. Or maybe Shaq, if you consider him the same generation.

[NZB2323]

Garnett a top 10 talent lmao! As in top 10 all time? Based on what? And Dirk stuck with the Mavs his entire career and that didnt hurt his “legacy” but not that Dirk cared about “legacy” lol

Dallas wasn't a lousy organization and put Dirk in a better position to succeed. And in the end, he did in fact win one, which greatly elevated his legacy.

Not a valid comparison.

Look at the teammates Dirk had in 2006 when the Mavs refused to keep Nash and Dirk led them to the finals.

[NZB2323]

I agree the Garnett on Wolves experience was probably a motivation for the wave of player movement afterwards.

I don't dislike the Wolves but I loved KG and it annoys me a lot that the FO on the Wolves just weren't ready for the big time.

KG should have been a lock in everyones top 10 all time

Without question. Just look at his RAPM rankings. Ball dont lie. KG was a machine.

https://www.nbarapm.com/player/Kevin_Garnett

We don’t have access to those stats before 97, so you can’t use those stats to put KG ahead of Russell, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Dr. J, Moses Malone, Jordan, Hakeem, Oscar, or West.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

KG was tied for 2nd in VORP those playoffs (1.7 in 18 games vs 1.8 for Kobe in 22 games). KG was 3rd in BPM behind Dirk (only a 5 game sample size) and Manu (10 game sample size, vs KG with 18 games). He was the best player in the playoffs that season. He was also playing with a garbage ass squad. Dude was a machine.

The fact that you consider KG the best player in those playoffs was more to do how everyone else played than him standing out.

04 year was a down year for all the top tier superstars (Shaq, Duncan, Kobe etc) in the playoffs.....no one really had individual standout performances.

A PF shooting 45% throughout the playoffs especially as the MVP of the league just isnt impressive imho.

[ballzboyee]

KG is a guy who was stuck with a lousy TWolves organization that could never put a respectable contender around him. He was so damn good that he carried those teams as well as anybody could, such as carrying them to the WCF and taking 2 games off the 03-04 Lakers.

KG is a top 10 all time talent. No question about it. A number of intelligent basketball fans actually have him in the top 10. Compare him to somebody like Kobe. Kobe dictated where he went from the start. He told Calipari that he would never play for the Nets if they drafted him. He made it very clear that there were a number of teams he wouldn't play for. This resulted in him getting drafted by the Hornets and traded to the Lakers.

Most people don't knock his legacy for refusing to play for a number of teams at first. He forced his way to a GOAT franchise and was lucky enough to play with the GOAT coach and some of the most talented teams in history. He won 5 championships that way.

Nearly all casual fans have Kobe above KG. You'll at some very intelligent fans who do in depth analysis putting KG above Kobe. Overall, the real difference between their rankings is because the organizations they played for. If KG went to the Lakers, he'd have more chips and would undoubtedly be ranked higher. And vice versa, Kobe would probably have between 0 and 2 and would be ranked lower.

People love to bash players for not being "loyal". But nobody faulta Kobe for the stunt he.pulled when entering the league. Nobody gives KG extra credit for being loyal to a bad organization. In the long run it hurt KGs legacy overall. Is he the ultimate example of why players should say f*** loyalty and chase rings?

This is true about Kobe cherry picking his way to LA as a rookie, and imho this gets swept under the carpet.

But that being said....KG top 10 all time talent? What criteria does one even use to give such a label? I personally just did NOT see this with KG at all. He was like a taller rich mans Scottie Pippen.

I don't care how versatile he was or how his metrics that people on RealGM boast about are rated so highly when he couldn't take over games offensively in the playoffs and that automatically disqualifies him from any top 10 talent lists.

And on defence, it wasn't game changing enough compared to the likes of Russell or Olajuwon to make me think highly of him there.

Charlotte drafted Kobe to trade him and admitted they didn't want him. Yes, Kobe wanted to play for LA, but its not like he would have ended up in Charlotte anyway most likely. I guess somehow you are trying to imply that Kobe going to LA is the equivalence of veteran superstars like Lebron, KD, and KG teaming up with other veteran superstars in a free agency years to ring chase. There is almost zero similarity between Kobe's rookie contract and those situations, especially given Shaq had not even signed a deal with LA when Kobe got traded, so it's not like he was teaming up with a superstar. Kobe going to LA and ending up on the same roster with Shaq was almost pure happenstance. First of all, Orlando had to completely blow their contract negotiation with him by offering to pay him less than other bigs. Shaq wanted to stay in Orlando. Remember, Kobe was in LA before Shaq. Shaq joined Kobe's team, not the other way around.

[Masigond]

Dallas wasn't a lousy organization and put Dirk in a better position to succeed. And in the end, he did in fact win one, which greatly elevated his legacy.

Not a valid comparison.

The difference between the franchises was more that the Mavs didn't screw up by hampering themselves getting caught making illegal deals and losing draft picks (and thus leeway for trades), and Cuban spent money. Still teams like the 2006 Mavs weren't exactly very top heavy. Maybe it was more to due Dirk than people acknowledge, because who was with the Mavs other than him? Jason Terry who could be a good second option scorer, but when his shot wasn't falling (and that happened. A lot!), he was very mediocre. Josh Howard was versatile but neither a dependable player to win on his own. In the 2006 playoffs the only other player than Dirk, Terry and Howard to average more than 30 mpg was Stackhouse. A scorer who was very prone to be too inefficient and thus was used as a sixth man. I've seen guys make excuses for other players when not having a true second superstar at their side. From that point of view the Mavs didn't exactly do Dirk much favor, and the 2006 Mavs had not much of a business of winning 60 games and reaching the NBA Finals that year.
But they kept winning at least 50 games each season in the regular season. With the big three, after giving up the eventual two-time MVP Nash for nothing, and after rebuilding for the 2011 title. The only constant factor was Dirk... Maybe prime Dirk is still underrated in terms of being able to lift his teams and the Mavs arguably a bit overrated in regard of the help Dirk got. There were no real stars at his side for most of his career, at least not in their prime (before some will mention guys like Kidd) and the best help Dirk had was Nash and Finley but the Mavs greatest seasons came without them, and the best there was then were fringe All-Star caliber players. Which might also be the reason why the Mavs often failed in the playoffs as opponent could concentrate so much on Dirk (as seen in 2007 when Nelson had his number). Dirk managed to get more resiliant after that. Something Garnett never figured out.

That said: Garnett could anchor the defense to a degree Dirk could never, but on offense he lacked the punch and impact, and for sure for most years he lacked the help needed from other players to contribute better on offense (with the Celtics he had that with the combination of Pierce and Ray, and to a lesser degree for a short time with Cassell and Spree). In that era, it was easier to get some able defensive bigs and wings than to get viable players to contribute to a team's offense, and that's why I think that Dirk was easier to build around than KG, even though he as an overall package was arguable the lesser player. Which adds up to the aforementioned failures of the Wolves. It wasn't cheap for the Mavs, but getting a plethora of guys like Dampier, Diop, Najera, Devean George, Marquis Daniels added to players like Terry who thrived due to the space created by Dirk's gravity wasn't as hard as getting able offensive players that Garnett needed around him to have success.

[Ritzo]

Oh and Kobe was like Jordan in this manner...

They both scored 10+ more points a game than their 2nd options during title runs.

I'm sure it has been done by other players as well, but Kobe nor Jordan needed another 20+ point scorer to win titles.

KG could never. His offensive repertoire and killer instinct simply wasn't good enough.

I don't really want to make this a Kobe vs KG thing but the last sentence is so true about KG.

I remember 40 year old Karl Malone just absolutely LOCKING MVP KG up in game 6 on the road. It was ugly to watch, he was forced out on the perimeter taking that ugly low % 15-18 foot turnaround and missing aplenty or turning it over.

And it's funny how I see how many claim Cassell's injury cost him a title...lol. Even with Cassell healthy with the way Detroit dominated defensively in the Finals with the Wallace frontcourt duo there's no way Minny was winning anything that year with KG as THE man.

As the 03-04 MVP at the peak of his powers in the preceding 2 series vs Denver and Sacramento he was shooting a combined 44% FG. Hardly setting the playoffs alight.

Duncan averaged 20 ppg and shot 41% FG in 2005 NBA Finals against the Pistons. But he also had Manu (averaged 18.7 ppg on 49% FG and 38% from 3) who was a great penetrator and has the talent of a first-option player. Tony Parker was no slouch either. KG didn't have those talents around him until he was traded to Boston. Duncan and the Spurs would've lost to the Pistons if he had Cassell and Sprewell instead of Parker and Manu.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

KG is a guy who was stuck with a lousy TWolves organization that could never put a respectable contender around him. He was so damn good that he carried those teams as well as anybody could, such as carrying them to the WCF and taking 2 games off the 03-04 Lakers.

KG is a top 10 all time talent. No question about it. A number of intelligent basketball fans actually have him in the top 10. Compare him to somebody like Kobe. Kobe dictated where he went from the start. He told Calipari that he would never play for the Nets if they drafted him. He made it very clear that there were a number of teams he wouldn't play for. This resulted in him getting drafted by the Hornets and traded to the Lakers.

Most people don't knock his legacy for refusing to play for a number of teams at first. He forced his way to a GOAT franchise and was lucky enough to play with the GOAT coach and some of the most talented teams in history. He won 5 championships that way.

Nearly all casual fans have Kobe above KG. You'll at some very intelligent fans who do in depth analysis putting KG above Kobe. Overall, the real difference between their rankings is because the organizations they played for. If KG went to the Lakers, he'd have more chips and would undoubtedly be ranked higher. And vice versa, Kobe would probably have between 0 and 2 and would be ranked lower.

People love to bash players for not being "loyal". But nobody faulta Kobe for the stunt he.pulled when entering the league. Nobody gives KG extra credit for being loyal to a bad organization. In the long run it hurt KGs legacy overall. Is he the ultimate example of why players should say f*** loyalty and chase rings?

This is true about Kobe cherry picking his way to LA as a rookie, and imho this gets swept under the carpet.

But that being said....KG top 10 all time talent? What criteria does one even use to give such a label? I personally just did NOT see this with KG at all. He was like a taller rich mans Scottie Pippen.

I don't care how versatile he was or how his metrics that people on RealGM boast about are rated so highly when he couldn't take over games offensively in the playoffs and that automatically disqualifies him from any top 10 talent lists.

And on defence, it wasn't game changing enough compared to the likes of Russell or Olajuwon to make me think highly of him there.

A taller rich man’s Scottie Pippen is a top 10 talent

Hardly, they are still shaky on offence and can't consistently take over playoff games. WIth certain matchups they can be out of sync by their opponents physical play.

[batmana]

You have some intelligent fans not trying to impose their own player rankings/evaluations on others and then you have those posters who would write endless posts about how they are right and end up with a certain player ~20 spots higher than in reality.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

I have to say, not sure anyone had more of a bum roster to compete for a championship then KG, I love Cassell but he can't be your 2nd option

I was not faulting KG for failing to churn out championships in Minnesota. But c'mon i can name quite a few of REAL top 10 all time talented players that went in playoff series on teams with underwhelming rosters and showed that next gear KG never did. Some players in history proved to be unstoppable at times no matter who their casts were.

in no particular order off the top of my head: Kareem, Hakeem, Jordan, LeBron, Moses Malone, Rick Barry, Jerry West.

KG isnt a top 10 talent imho because he didnt play at that level in the playoffs.....even when Boston won the title.

[Bloodbather]

KG's legacy is definitely hurt in the eyes of the people who underestimate the team sport aspect of it all.

But conversely, the advanced metrics crowd overestimate him a bit because his RS impact numbers were astounding. Much of it is just a testament to how good KG was, yes, but being a huge outlier with a weak supporting cast does boost your advanced metrics a bit.

As far as I see it, KG is clearly a Top 20 player of all-time with an argument for Top 15. But his scoring wasn't very resistant against PS coverage. He couldn't score at a high volume on good efficiency consistently and that’s a big deal in these comparisons among all-time greats.

[Lalouie]

everybody puts him in the top20

how was his legacy hurt

he was never going to be a top10, so are we quibbling about top20 vs top15.

there have been very few "LOUSY" orgs, but minnie was certainly one of them. so for the other teams that arent so bad, are you saying all superstars should ask out? didnt help dame did it.

bro, not everyone is like lebron

[Ruma85]

I have to say, not sure anyone had more of a bum roster to compete for a championship then KG, I love Cassell but he can't be your 2nd option

I was not faulting KG for failing to churn out championships in Minnesota. But c'mon i can name quite a few of REAL top 10 all time talented players that went in playoff series on teams with underwhelming rosters and showed that next gear KG never did. Some players in history proved to be unstoppable at times no matter who their casts were.

in no particular order off the top of my head: Kareem, Hakeem, Jordan, LeBron, Moses Malone, Rick Barry, Jerry West.

KG isnt a top 10 talent imho because he didnt play at that level in the playoffs.....even when Boston won the title.

I didn't say you were, I was just giving my opinion & I agree.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Is KG even a top 10 talent for his generation?

you just proved his point

[Ryoga Hibiki]

You leave out the part where he signed the richest contract extension in nba history, basically triggered the 99 lock out and salary cap.

His contract plus the new salary cap rules, plus the wolves illegally getting caught for the joe smith signing. They just could t build a team around him

+ Brandon injury

[Ryoga Hibiki]

He was like a taller rich mans Scottie Pippen.

a taller rich mans Scottie Pippen could easily describe a goat candidate

[FuShengTHEGreat]

Oh and Kobe was like Jordan in this manner...

They both scored 10+ more points a game than their 2nd options during title runs.

I'm sure it has been done by other players as well, but Kobe nor Jordan needed another 20+ point scorer to win titles.

KG could never. His offensive repertoire and killer instinct simply wasn't good enough.

I don't really want to make this a Kobe vs KG thing but the last sentence is so true about KG.

I remember 40 year old Karl Malone just absolutely LOCKING MVP KG up in game 6 on the road. It was ugly to watch, he was forced out on the perimeter taking that ugly low % 15-18 foot turnaround and missing aplenty or turning it over.

And it's funny how I see how many claim Cassell's injury cost him a title...lol. Even with Cassell healthy with the way Detroit dominated defensively in the Finals with the Wallace frontcourt duo there's no way Minny was winning anything that year with KG as THE man.

As the 03-04 MVP at the peak of his powers in the preceding 2 series vs Denver and Sacramento he was shooting a combined 44% FG. Hardly setting the playoffs alight.

Duncan averaged 20 ppg and shot 41% FG in 2005 NBA Finals against the Pistons. But he also had Manu (averaged 18.7 ppg on 49% FG and 38% from 3) who was a great penetrator and has the talent of a first-option player. Tony Parker was no slouch either. KG didn't have those talents around him until he was traded to Boston. Duncan and the Spurs would've lost to the Pistons if he had Cassell and Sprewell instead of Parker and Manu.

Oh poppycock! In 2002 he had equally to similar talent headed into the playoffs as the 5th seed. Both Szcerbiak and Billups gave him well over 20ppg in the opening round vs Dallas. They both improved on what they averaged in the regular season.

What'd KG average? Only 42% for the series vs a Dallas team that was the 4th worst in the entire NBA. He had more experience than Dirk and yet Dirk outperformed him big time.