Toronto yeets Quickley to the Suns

[babyjax13]

TOR trades: Immanuel Quickley
PHX trades: Jalen Green

Toronto cuts a year off of Quickley's deal and brings in some high-volume three point shooting. Not the most efficient, but it is high volume. Phoenix swaps one of their billion shooting guards for a point guard.

[Godaddycurse]

This is terrible for Toronto on court. We do not need Green when we already have Ingram and RJ.

We need more 3 pt shooting next to barnes/poeltl, not less. IQ is a high 3 pt volume shooter himself (7 attempts/game) at a significantly better percentage. You know who else has a billion SGs? Toronto lol.

RJ
Dick
Agbaji
Walter
Lawson
Martin

OP makes no sense to me

[babyjax13]

This is terrible for Toronto on court. We do not need Green when we already have Ingram and RJ.

We need more 3 pt shooting next to barnes/poeltl, not less. IQ is a high 3 pt volume shooter himself (7 attempts/game) at a significantly better percentage. You know who else has a billion SGs? Toronto lol.

RJ
Dick
Agbaji
Walter
Lawson
Martin

OP makes no sense to me

Totally makes sense. My thought was that Toronto has so many on-ball players that having Green defend 1s might be interesting. If they can't figure it out this year Green would be an expiring contract that they can use as filler in a trade for someone they actually want and I think (might be wrong) that expiring money will be more valuable than Quickley with two seasons left at that point. Green is a 41% catch and shoot 3-point shooter, so having all that ball handling (playing off RJ, Barnes, and Ingram) might actually unlock the best version of what he can be.

[Godaddycurse]

This is terrible for Toronto on court. We do not need Green when we already have Ingram and RJ.

We need more 3 pt shooting next to barnes/poeltl, not less. IQ is a high 3 pt volume shooter himself (7 attempts/game) at a significantly better percentage. You know who else has a billion SGs? Toronto lol.

RJ
Dick
Agbaji
Walter
Lawson
Martin

OP makes no sense to me

Totally makes sense. My thought was that Toronto has so many on-ball players that having Green defend 1s might be interesting. If they can't figure it out this year Green would be an expiring contract that they can use as filler in a trade for someone they actually want and I think (might be wrong) that expiring money will be more valuable than Quickley with two seasons left at that point. Green is a 41% catch and shoot 3-point shooter, so having all that ball handling (playing off RJ, Barnes, and Ingram) might actually unlock the best version of what he can be.

Green defending POA doesnt sound like a good idea. He is still not a good defender.

He has 2+1 PO left so if he doesnt work out he wont be expiring either. IQs contract is also flat snd will age out better.

We need IQ to run pick and roll with Poeltl as well. Everyone else defenders would probably sag off. IQ is our best ATB 3 pt threat in P&R.

Not interested at all in this trade.

[giberish]

IQ is both a much better defender than Green and more of a PG than Green.

Maybe if Toronto was in rebuild mode you could justify it as a youth move (with possible salary savings help if Green doesn't work and short-term tanking help running Green at PG).

[One_and_Done]

The value is fair, but does Toronto need a low calories shooting guard more than a low calories point guard? I doubt it.

[daoneandonly]

What does yeets mean?

[jbk1234]

IQ is actually a better 3 point shooter than Green, so I have this as DOA. IQ is the only player on the Raptors roster who shoots above league average from 3 on any kind of volume. It's the Raptors biggest need as they're going to face a lot of crowded paints.

[Scoot McGroot]

IQ is the much more realistic Pg fit. I echo the Toronto posters in that I don’t see the use for Toronto here. The money savings isn’t enough for the poor roster fit.

[gswhoops]

Yeah not to pile on but agree with the consensus here. Cap savings 3 years out are not enough to swallow the serious on-court hit here.

[Texas Chuck]

The problem here is OG got traded for RJ and IQ. After all this insistence that despite Toronto waiting too long to trade him the return would be massive. And so in order to not have been wrong about that, one has to continue to assign real value to both IQ and RJ that their play hasn't warranted. Some decent +/- stats for IQ years ago in a much different role against backups isn't as compelling for me as others.

So on value, I think Toronto wins. Shorter deal, lower floor, but higher ceiling player coming back which is what they need with their lack of difference makers. But the fans are still all-in on IQ instead of seeing him as the easiest piece to upgrade and change the trajectory of the team. Just too many good PG's in the league and their importance being higher than its ever been to have a guy whose never going to be an above average starter in that role and just lock him in because you like a flat contract...

[Godaddycurse]

The problem here is OG got traded for RJ and IQ. After all this insistence that despite Toronto waiting too long to trade him the return would be massive. And so in order to not have been wrong about that, one has to continue to assign real value to both IQ and RJ that their play hasn't warranted. Some decent +/- stats for IQ years ago in a much different role against backups isn't as compelling for me as others.

So on value, I think Toronto wins. Shorter deal, lower floor, but higher ceiling player coming back which is what they need with their lack of difference makers. But the fans are still all-in on IQ instead of seeing him as the easiest piece to upgrade and change the trajectory of the team. Just too many good PG's in the league and their importance being higher than its ever been to have a guy whose never going to be an above average starter in that role and just lock him in because you like a flat contract...

i think your argument might've made sense pre Ingram trade but we've put our eggs into this basket now and am forced to carry through with what we have for next couple years

[jbk1234]

I don't rate IQ highly, but I think it's really hard to make the case that Jalen Green has more trade value than IQ. If he had any kind of positive trade value, the Suns almost certainly would've swapped him out for a player at another position given how much money they had tied up at SG. He's certainly a worse fit on the Raptors roster given the fact he's never, not once, shot league average from 3. The Raptors compounding their spacing woes is a great way to crater every player's trade value.

[psman2]

The problem here is OG got traded for RJ and IQ. After all this insistence that despite Toronto waiting too long to trade him the return would be massive. And so in order to not have been wrong about that, one has to continue to assign real value to both IQ and RJ that their play hasn't warranted. Some decent +/- stats for IQ years ago in a much different role against backups isn't as compelling for me as others.

So on value, I think Toronto wins. Shorter deal, lower floor, but higher ceiling player coming back which is what they need with their lack of difference makers. But the fans are still all-in on IQ instead of seeing him as the easiest piece to upgrade and change the trajectory of the team. Just too many good PG's in the league and their importance being higher than its ever been to have a guy whose never going to be an above average starter in that role and just lock him in because you like a flat contract...

i think your argument might've made sense pre Ingram trade but we've put our eggs into this basket now and am forced to carry through with what we have for next couple years

Yep. Toronto has for better or worse has chosen a path, I don't see them altering it before at least a season has played out. Now the downside is in a year if it fails then flipping IQ is likely going to be that much harder if needed. Same with Ingram...which likely means this team likely has at least a 2 year run before throwing in the towel....but even then they will not be much if anything of value to sell off other than Barnes....but even Barnes then will have lost some luster being the center of roster that didn't preform as hoped on a big contract.

[gswhoops]

The problem here is OG got traded for RJ and IQ. After all this insistence that despite Toronto waiting too long to trade him the return would be massive. And so in order to not have been wrong about that, one has to continue to assign real value to both IQ and RJ that their play hasn't warranted. Some decent +/- stats for IQ years ago in a much different role against backups isn't as compelling for me as others.

So on value, I think Toronto wins. Shorter deal, lower floor, but higher ceiling player coming back which is what they need with their lack of difference makers. But the fans are still all-in on IQ instead of seeing him as the easiest piece to upgrade and change the trajectory of the team. Just too many good PG's in the league and their importance being higher than its ever been to have a guy whose never going to be an above average starter in that role and just lock him in because you like a flat contract...

I'm not so sure I'd say Green has a higher ceiling at this point in his NBA career. Sure, if he becomes much more efficient as a scorer, develops his ability to make plays for others, and starts putting in some effort on defense he could be a difference maker...but that's basically asking him to become a completely different player. I don't think I'd value the 1% chance that he does that (and the 99% chance that he stays an inefficient, ball-dominant "scorer" who doesn't meaningfully contribute to winning basketball) over IQ who is inarguably overpaid but has a skillset that is actually useful.

[jbk1234]

The problem here is OG got traded for RJ and IQ. After all this insistence that despite Toronto waiting too long to trade him the return would be massive. And so in order to not have been wrong about that, one has to continue to assign real value to both IQ and RJ that their play hasn't warranted. Some decent +/- stats for IQ years ago in a much different role against backups isn't as compelling for me as others.

So on value, I think Toronto wins. Shorter deal, lower floor, but higher ceiling player coming back which is what they need with their lack of difference makers. But the fans are still all-in on IQ instead of seeing him as the easiest piece to upgrade and change the trajectory of the team. Just too many good PG's in the league and their importance being higher than its ever been to have a guy whose never going to be an above average starter in that role and just lock him in because you like a flat contract...

i think your argument might've made sense pre Ingram trade but we've put our eggs into this basket now and am forced to carry through with what we have for next couple years

Yep. Toronto has for better or worse has chosen a path, I don't see them altering it before at least a season has played out. Now the downside is in a year if it fails then flipping IQ is likely going to be that much harder if needed. Same with Ingram...which likely means this team likely has at least a 2 year run before throwing in the towel....but even then they will not be much if anything of value to sell off other than Barnes....but even Barnes then will have lost some luster being the center of roster that didn't preform as hoped on a big contract.

IQ has his limitations, but unless he has an awful season, there's no reason to think he won't be able to return an expiring next summer, or at least the following summer.

There really aren't that many good young PGs in the NBA, especially if you remove forwards who run their teams offenses and undersized 2 guards from the definition of PG. His defense is solid, he shoots from 3 well on high volume, and he's a good secondary facilitator or sixth man. He can plug in well on teams where their 2 guards or forwards are the primary ball handlers (perhaps Ingram this season). He just shouldn't be the player tasked with breaking down the defense and forcing a rotation.

[Texas Chuck]

There really aren't that many good young PGs in the NBA, especially if you remove forwards who run their teams offenses and undersized 2 guards from the definition of PG. His defense is solid, he shoots from 3 well on high volume, and he's a good secondary facilitator or sixth man. He can plug in well on teams where their 2 guards or forwards are the primary ball handlers (perhaps Ingram this season). He just shouldn't be the player tasked with breaking down the defense and forcing a rotation.

You aren't describing a PG though. You are just describing a small player who can defend some PG's. Lebron, Luka, Harden are all PG's and have been PG's. Them being big doesn't change that. PatBev was the shooting guard next to Harden who was there to defend PG's for him. He also made MLE money or less. Derek Fisher, same guy.

They paid him lead PG money and need him to be a real PG. I'm skeptical he is that. Which as you say is totally fine if he's on a roster where the team has bigger players who do that. He'd have been fine in the Jrue role in Boston or taking the KCP spot in Denver or whatever. He's a Suggs like player with less defense but a bit more consistent offense. Orlando has struggled because their forwards are much like Barnes/BI, simply not good enough(yet maybe). Same issue is staring Toronto dead in the face. Would be Phoenix too.

Random note I heard on a recent pod- Orlando hasn't had a top 20 offense in over a decade. Wild. That's just wild. Will be interesting to see if the all-in on Bane changes that. I'm skeptical.

[gswhoops]

There really aren't that many good young PGs in the NBA, especially if you remove forwards who run their teams offenses and undersized 2 guards from the definition of PG. His defense is solid, he shoots from 3 well on high volume, and he's a good secondary facilitator or sixth man. He can plug in well on teams where their 2 guards or forwards are the primary ball handlers (perhaps Ingram this season). He just shouldn't be the player tasked with breaking down the defense and forcing a rotation.

You aren't describing a PG though. You are just describing a small player who can defend some PG's. Lebron, Luka, Harden are all PG's and have been PG's. Them being big doesn't change that. PatBev was the shooting guard next to Harden who was there to defend PG's for him. He also made MLE money or less. Derek Fisher, same guy.

They paid him lead PG money and need him to be a real PG. I'm skeptical he is that. Which as you say is totally fine if he's on a roster where the team has bigger players who do that. He'd have been fine in the Jrue role in Boston or taking the KCP spot in Denver or whatever. He's a Suggs like player with less defense but a bit more consistent offense. Orlando has struggled because their forwards are much like Barnes/BI, simply not good enough(yet maybe). Same issue is staring Toronto dead in the face. Would be Phoenix too.

Random note I heard on a recent pod- Orlando hasn't had a top 20 offense in over a decade. Wild. That's just wild. Will be interesting to see if the all-in on Bane changes that. I'm skeptical.

That is insane in a league with only 30 teams lol.

[ConSarnit]

The problem here is OG got traded for RJ and IQ. After all this insistence that despite Toronto waiting too long to trade him the return would be massive. And so in order to not have been wrong about that, one has to continue to assign real value to both IQ and RJ that their play hasn't warranted. Some decent +/- stats for IQ years ago in a much different role against backups isn't as compelling for me as others.

So on value, I think Toronto wins. Shorter deal, lower floor, but higher ceiling player coming back which is what they need with their lack of difference makers. But the fans are still all-in on IQ instead of seeing him as the easiest piece to upgrade and change the trajectory of the team. Just too many good PG's in the league and their importance being higher than its ever been to have a guy whose never going to be an above average starter in that role and just lock him in because you like a flat contract...

I don't think it has much to do with holding onto not being wrong. We just fired Masai. If they want out on IQ just pin the OG for RJ/IQ trade on Masai. We've already been rumored to be shopping RJ.

-if we're looking to upgrade at PG then trading for Green (a non-PG) doesn't help us

-we have too many SG's as it is

-Green is all theory at this point. The things he supposed to be good at he's not actually good at (scoring and shooting) and he provides little of anything else (bad playmaking, middling defender). We have 4 years of evidence on him so his potential is wearing thin.

-a shorter deal doesn't really help us because Green is still a negative contract. IQ might be one too but he makes less and actually can do the things we want him to do, even if he's overpaid.

By the time Green's bad contract would be up IQ's flat contract would be more reasonable. By '27/28 IQ projects to be around the 20th highest paid PG. That seems about right. The best years of IQ's deal will be the end years. I'm not opposed to moving IQ but doing so for Green makes little sense to me. It's not like we clear any of IQ's bad money, we just take on Green's even worse money. IQ's money isn't likely to be bad in 3 years and we don't get any upgrade in the meantime by taking on Green. If IQ's contract was on a more standard contract (5% raises) it might make a little more sense but I think I'd still pass.

[ConSarnit]

There really aren't that many good young PGs in the NBA, especially if you remove forwards who run their teams offenses and undersized 2 guards from the definition of PG. His defense is solid, he shoots from 3 well on high volume, and he's a good secondary facilitator or sixth man. He can plug in well on teams where their 2 guards or forwards are the primary ball handlers (perhaps Ingram this season). He just shouldn't be the player tasked with breaking down the defense and forcing a rotation.

You aren't describing a PG though. You are just describing a small player who can defend some PG's. Lebron, Luka, Harden are all PG's and have been PG's. Them being big doesn't change that. PatBev was the shooting guard next to Harden who was there to defend PG's for him. He also made MLE money or less. Derek Fisher, same guy.

They paid him lead PG money and need him to be a real PG. I'm skeptical he is that. Which as you say is totally fine if he's on a roster where the team has bigger players who do that. He'd have been fine in the Jrue role in Boston or taking the KCP spot in Denver or whatever. He's a Suggs like player with less defense but a bit more consistent offense. Orlando has struggled because their forwards are much like Barnes/BI, simply not good enough(yet maybe). Same issue is staring Toronto dead in the face. Would be Phoenix too.

Random note I heard on a recent pod- Orlando hasn't had a top 20 offense in over a decade. Wild. That's just wild. Will be interesting to see if the all-in on Bane changes that. I'm skeptical.

The Raptors don't really need him to be a traditional PG considering we have Barnes (who takes on playmaking well above the norm from the PF position). Ingram will also take a lot of ball handling possessions. IQ also runs twice as much pnr than Beverly ever did and has been far more efficient at it. Quickley has scaled up his APG and ast% every year. IQ takes far more pullup 3's than Beverly ever did and hits them at a much higher %. Quickley is superior in almost every facet when it comes to offense over someone like Beverly. You might not want Quickley as your 1st option (running the offense) but he's more than solid as a secondary guy and as someone who can play off-ball.

Worth his money? I'd say no. But his offense is well beyond that of the 3+D pg types.