Did Zach Lowe identify some convincing points for being low on Raptors?

[tsherkin]

Pelton gave our Offseason a C-

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/45836861/nba-offseason-grades-2025-26-season-boston-celtics-oklahoma-city-thunder

Toronto Raptors
Grade: C-

A deadline deal for Brandon Ingram turned out to be Toronto's big offseason move. Given how little cap space was available, Ingram was wise to lock in a three-year, $120 million deal after the trade. Over the tax line, the Raptors merely swapped out unsigned Chris Boucher for Sandro Mamukelashvili and drafted Collin Murray-Boyles at No. 9. The result is a roster that still doesn't look like a top-six team in the East with limited financial flexibility, particularly after a rich extension for center Jakob Poeltl.

Yeah, I mean, it's not an overwhelming offseason. BI is exciting, but he does come with a lot of IF around his availability and all that, so it's understandable.

Scottie Barnes

Not sure I understand that inclusion as a reason to be high on this team.

[Indeed]

Offense is gonna be gross.

Is it?

We're basically adding 37 ppg at league average efficiency if IQ and BI are healthy-ish. That alone should make a palpable difference in our offense. Then there's the ripple effect of BI's threat and the spacing from both of them. Plus anything at all we get from the kids.

I think we're probably set to be a decent offense. Probably not much separation from league average, but "gross" seems a little aggressive to me unless we have injury issues.

Unless you have all three Ingram, Barrett and Quickley, otherwise, I don't see you get enough offense with Poeltl and Barnes in the paint. Just a jump shooting team that based on 4 of the starting 5 able to shoot the 3s.

Meanwhile, Quickley and Barnes are not a good pair, as we saw many experiential lineup last year with them. End up having Barnes at the corner that doesn't shoot the 3 well, even he shoots the 3 well next year, it is hardly worth a near-max. And consider Ingram and Quickley are basically having the same offense, I don't see how they are a good fit neither.

I am not surprised either we are slightly above average on offense with Poeltl-Barnes-Ingram-Barrett-Quickley and a league bottom defense, or you swap Barrett or Quickley to the bench for defense and being below average offense and below average defense. That to me is a below average team and being slightly over the tax.

Tanking at the year end would not surprise me, just who is out would be my question. Quickley who doesn't fit with anyone? Barrett who has defensive issue? Barnes who does not provide enough of what he paid for?

[Harry Palmer]

This is going to come off as more haterish than intended, but...

Did (literally anyone) identify some convincing points for being high on Raptors?

In a more positive light, you can see BI as the wildcard, paint in better than average luck on the growth/development of the recently drafted, and decent to good incremental growth from the core, and then what you get is that the young guys are the new core, and suddenly you flip the script, with the overpaid meh starting core they are suddenly, in projection if not exactitude in each instance suddenly becoming a very high quality new bench and that’s a hell of a more exciting prospect.

I respect Masai’s drafting/pre-draft scouting much more than his nba/self scouting*, and admittedly haven’t paid nearly enough attention to speak as definitely as I sounded in my last post so there’s probably a path there, but tbh it requires drawing so many aces in terms of luck/development that it’s highly unlikely. But imma pay more attention this year and have a better idea what I think of the kids floors…sadly I’m already pretty confident I’ve seen enough of the older ones to have a pretty good idea there…and it’s not impossible I will be in here gushing in a few months.

*to me this is where Masai’s strength (passionate in his sense of the talent and importantly character of the prospects which makes quick connections and he is able to read the prospects kinda though those connections) becomes a weakness (he also really puts himself into a connection-based insight/evaluation place with his current players too, and there it can lead him to an almost parental perspective whereof his pure scouting talent (which is the essential co-pilot to his connection based sense of their drive, mentality, character, commitment, etc. as a drafting magic) is blinded or overwhelmed by his connection with/belief in his guys and he loses all objectivity and perspective on them.

[bballsparkin]

I don’t see the plan, I think we’re pretty locked in to a low ceiling mehburger. I really don’t see any design unfolding, we feel like a placeholder that teams that might matter will play against. I don’t see anything we’ll be particularly good at, nor do I see us competing for lottery balls. As for things like ‘team spirit’, underrated, or w/e, find me a team whose fans don’t think that about their team when their team is neither very good or very bad. Feels very..say it with me…treadmill.

Otoh I would probably have been even more pessimistic about the Jays, so…

I think the plan is to see what we got; who performs and then make moves to balance the roster. A lot depends on Barnes and how CMB develops. As a fan I feel no pressure this season. Heck if they are a play-in team I think there will be good players available for the roster at that position (draft position I mean). If the team is a mehburger and doesn't make the moves needed maybe Bobby and Co get replaced. That could be good, or bad or much of the same if MLSE is putting pressure for playoff revenue. It's a breakout the popcorn season and sit back and watch for me. After the last three seasons that sounds appealing. Personally, I'm with you I believe, in the sense that I'd rather have not made the Ingram trade and spent one more year in the lottery to try to get "that player". But it's not in the stars at this point so we shall see. And the East is so bad that maybe tanking is a waste of time anyway.

[Los_29]

This is going to come off as more haterish than intended, but...

Did (literally anyone) identify some convincing points for being high on Raptors?

You’re adding a fairly efficient 22ppg scorer along with a healthy IQ. It’s also not unreasonable to think our young guys will come in better than last year.

It’s actually very easy to be high on this team. Obviously they need to be healthy but there is a lot to like.

Look at how high some analysts are about the Pistons and look at their starting lineup. It ain’t good. We can’t rely on what analysts say. These same analysts were high on the Sixers, Pelicans, Kings and Suns last year. And we all saw how that turned out.

We aren’t an elite team but we don’t have to be. This team winning 40-45 games would be a huge step in the right direction especially when you factor in the continued growth of our young players and the fact we have all of our picks which not many teams do.

[kalel123]

There's cetainly a lot of homerism here.

While I think we are likely play-in bound with some room to improve, I think Zach Lowe is certainly fair in his assessment. It scares the living **** out of me that so much of our season centrally depend on a guy who's been one of the most injury prone in the league. He's not going to magically get healthier all of a sudden just cause he moves teams when our team had its share of injuries. All we can do is pray we get lucky with health. And even when healthy, the fit is questionable and something that remains to be seen. For example, it doesn't bode well when we use a pick we shamelessly tanked for (which still failed due to Barnes' insistence to play 65 games) to draft a guy who occupies similar space as our best guy and largely renders Mogbo obsolete. Still don't know why we drafted the guy when there was a guy in Filipkowski who was a better players/prospect/fit available. Barrett's another guy with questionable fit with addition of Ingram and our general lack of shooting is no secret. Then the defense so many people tout was one of the best late in the season is largely a mirage IMO when you account for the fact large chunk of competition late in the season were teams that were tanking even harder/better than we were and our lineups featured guys that wouldn't see the floor as much if all goes right health-wise.

So all in all, there are plenty of reasons to be pessimistic especially if you are outside looking in.

When the Raps traded OG & Pascal, they lost 2 players with similar size and ability to guard multiple positions like Barnes. I think the picks of Mogbo and CMB, are the FO just trying to reestablish that size and versatility on D.

The problem with Filipkowski or Maluach, is like most C's they are limited in their use. Unless they are a dominant player like Jokic or Embiid, it is hard to keep them on the floor in the modern NBA. A decent C is still needed at certain moments in the game, and especially if facing one of the better C's in the game, but otherwise, they just are not as of much use. I'm sure the team would be more comfortable with a combo of Barnes and CMB/Mogbo on the floor than either of Filipkowski or Maluach.

So, why waste a draft pick on a straight C, when they already had a competent one in Poeltl. And they couldn't replace Poeltl with a rookie, as the rookie could never fill those shoes.

RJ's fit, while not perfect, still addresses a major weakness for the team. Nobody can get to the basket, and apply rim pressure and draw fouls like RJ.

Ingram's fit is his jump shooting. Until Gradey or Walter can be trusted to fill that role, BI will help in the short term.

Ideally, you want to find a big that is versatile, which means more PF/C than a straight C. But this isn't ideal world and beggars can't be choosers. We see this team being outsized, outmuscled, and pushed around on nightly basis and the impact of Poeltl missing any time is much greater than it should be. So CLEARLY whatever the **** they put out there in the front court ain't working, we need real size, and it's not going to work by doubling down on the same formula by adding another 6' 7" guy with long arms occupying similar space as your would-be best player. And this guy will probably render last year's 31st pick obsolete who was older and had very limited game to begin with. Lastly, it doesn't matter whatever the **** this FO feels comfortable with because if it did, we wouldn't be in the position we are in now. Argument against Maluach is understandable for now but with Filipkowski, it didn't make sense then and it makes even less sense now that we've picked CMB and Mogbo will probably be part-timing on G league team if everyone's healthy as a 24-year-old.

[Los_29]

There's cetainly a lot of homerism here.

While I think we are likely play-in bound with some room to improve, I think Zach Lowe is certainly fair in his assessment. It scares the living **** out of me that so much of our season centrally depend on a guy who's been one of the most injury prone in the league. He's not going to magically get healthier all of a sudden just cause he moves teams when our team had its share of injuries. All we can do is pray we get lucky with health. And even when healthy, the fit is questionable and something that remains to be seen. For example, it doesn't bode well when we use a pick we shamelessly tanked for (which still failed due to Barnes' insistence to play 65 games) to draft a guy who occupies similar space as our best guy and largely renders Mogbo obsolete. Still don't know why we drafted the guy when there was a guy in Filipkowski who was a better players/prospect/fit available. Barrett's another guy with questionable fit with addition of Ingram and our general lack of shooting is no secret. Then the defense so many people tout was one of the best late in the season is largely a mirage IMO when you account for the fact large chunk of competition late in the season were teams that were tanking even harder/better than we were and our lineups featured guys that wouldn't see the floor as much if all goes right health-wise.

So all in all, there are plenty of reasons to be pessimistic especially if you are outside looking in.

When the Raps traded OG & Pascal, they lost 2 players with similar size and ability to guard multiple positions like Barnes. I think the picks of Mogbo and CMB, are the FO just trying to reestablish that size and versatility on D.

The problem with Filipkowski or Maluach, is like most C's they are limited in their use. Unless they are a dominant player like Jokic or Embiid, it is hard to keep them on the floor in the modern NBA. A decent C is still needed at certain moments in the game, and especially if facing one of the better C's in the game, but otherwise, they just are not as of much use. I'm sure the team would be more comfortable with a combo of Barnes and CMB/Mogbo on the floor than either of Filipkowski or Maluach.

So, why waste a draft pick on a straight C, when they already had a competent one in Poeltl. And they couldn't replace Poeltl with a rookie, as the rookie could never fill those shoes.

RJ's fit, while not perfect, still addresses a major weakness for the team. Nobody can get to the basket, and apply rim pressure and draw fouls like RJ.

Ingram's fit is his jump shooting. Until Gradey or Walter can be trusted to fill that role, BI will help in the short term.

Ideally, you want to find a big that is versatile, which means more PF/C than a straight C. But this isn't ideal world and beggars can't be choosers. We see this team being outsized, outmuscled, and pushed around on nightly basis and the impact of Poeltl missing any time is much greater than it should be. So CLEARLY whatever the **** they put out there in the front court ain't working, we need real size, and it's not going to work by doubling down on the same formula by adding another 6' 7" guy with long arms occupying similar space as your would-be best player. And this guy will probably render last year's 31st pick obsolete who was older and had very limited game to begin with. Lastly, it doesn't matter whatever the **** this FO feels comfortable with because if it did, we wouldn't be in the position we are in now. Argument against Maluach is understandable for now but with Filipkowski, it didn't make sense then and it makes even less sense now that we've picked CMB and Mogbo will probably be part-timing on G league team if everyone's healthy as a 24-year-old.

Filipowski can really shoot it but provides zero rim protection, can’t defend out on the perimeter, can’t really create his own shot. It’s fun to think of a big that can shoot but it means very little if they can’t do anything else.

[MoneyBall]

The one thing I've never heard, which almost seems very odd, is why haven't we locked Jak in the gym every off-season and forced him to work on his 3. Hes a smart player, I guarantee if he works hard enough for a few years hell become respectable. Weve invested in him so much, why isn't this already being done, id bet he's willing

Gotta learn how to consistently hit free throws before extending into three point range.

[MoneyBall]

I don’t see the plan, I think we’re pretty locked in to a low ceiling mehburger. I really don’t see any design unfolding, we feel like a placeholder that teams that might matter will play against. I don’t see anything we’ll be particularly good at, nor do I see us competing for lottery balls. As for things like ‘team spirit’, underrated, or w/e, find me a team whose fans don’t think that about their team when their team is neither very good or very bad. Feels very..say it with me…treadmill.

Otoh I would probably have been even more pessimistic about the Jays, so…

It really wasn't that long ago that people said the same thing about the Pacers and Cavs.

[kalel123]

When the Raps traded OG & Pascal, they lost 2 players with similar size and ability to guard multiple positions like Barnes. I think the picks of Mogbo and CMB, are the FO just trying to reestablish that size and versatility on D.

The problem with Filipkowski or Maluach, is like most C's they are limited in their use. Unless they are a dominant player like Jokic or Embiid, it is hard to keep them on the floor in the modern NBA. A decent C is still needed at certain moments in the game, and especially if facing one of the better C's in the game, but otherwise, they just are not as of much use. I'm sure the team would be more comfortable with a combo of Barnes and CMB/Mogbo on the floor than either of Filipkowski or Maluach.

So, why waste a draft pick on a straight C, when they already had a competent one in Poeltl. And they couldn't replace Poeltl with a rookie, as the rookie could never fill those shoes.

RJ's fit, while not perfect, still addresses a major weakness for the team. Nobody can get to the basket, and apply rim pressure and draw fouls like RJ.

Ingram's fit is his jump shooting. Until Gradey or Walter can be trusted to fill that role, BI will help in the short term.

Ideally, you want to find a big that is versatile, which means more PF/C than a straight C. But this isn't ideal world and beggars can't be choosers. We see this team being outsized, outmuscled, and pushed around on nightly basis and the impact of Poeltl missing any time is much greater than it should be. So CLEARLY whatever the **** they put out there in the front court ain't working, we need real size, and it's not going to work by doubling down on the same formula by adding another 6' 7" guy with long arms occupying similar space as your would-be best player. And this guy will probably render last year's 31st pick obsolete who was older and had very limited game to begin with. Lastly, it doesn't matter whatever the **** this FO feels comfortable with because if it did, we wouldn't be in the position we are in now. Argument against Maluach is understandable for now but with Filipkowski, it didn't make sense then and it makes even less sense now that we've picked CMB and Mogbo will probably be part-timing on G league team if everyone's healthy as a 24-year-old.

Filipowski can really shoot it but provides zero rim protection, can’t defend out on the perimeter, can’t really create his own shot. It’s fun to think of a big that can shoot but it means very little if they can’t do anything else.

Maybe. But we gonna pretend Mogbo isn't just as limited if not more? He certainly ain't multi-faceted. At least, Filipkowski (and Chomche) would make the new minimum big guy (who seem to have similar weaknesses as Filipkowski on D) unnecessary and we don't have to worry about being a tax team as much and another open spot for someone like AJ Lawson.

[JB7]

There's cetainly a lot of homerism here.

While I think we are likely play-in bound with some room to improve, I think Zach Lowe is certainly fair in his assessment. It scares the living **** out of me that so much of our season centrally depend on a guy who's been one of the most injury prone in the league. He's not going to magically get healthier all of a sudden just cause he moves teams when our team had its share of injuries. All we can do is pray we get lucky with health. And even when healthy, the fit is questionable and something that remains to be seen. For example, it doesn't bode well when we use a pick we shamelessly tanked for (which still failed due to Barnes' insistence to play 65 games) to draft a guy who occupies similar space as our best guy and largely renders Mogbo obsolete. Still don't know why we drafted the guy when there was a guy in Filipkowski who was a better players/prospect/fit available. Barrett's another guy with questionable fit with addition of Ingram and our general lack of shooting is no secret. Then the defense so many people tout was one of the best late in the season is largely a mirage IMO when you account for the fact large chunk of competition late in the season were teams that were tanking even harder/better than we were and our lineups featured guys that wouldn't see the floor as much if all goes right health-wise.

So all in all, there are plenty of reasons to be pessimistic especially if you are outside looking in.

When the Raps traded OG & Pascal, they lost 2 players with similar size and ability to guard multiple positions like Barnes. I think the picks of Mogbo and CMB, are the FO just trying to reestablish that size and versatility on D.

The problem with Filipkowski or Maluach, is like most C's they are limited in their use. Unless they are a dominant player like Jokic or Embiid, it is hard to keep them on the floor in the modern NBA. A decent C is still needed at certain moments in the game, and especially if facing one of the better C's in the game, but otherwise, they just are not as of much use. I'm sure the team would be more comfortable with a combo of Barnes and CMB/Mogbo on the floor than either of Filipkowski or Maluach.

So, why waste a draft pick on a straight C, when they already had a competent one in Poeltl. And they couldn't replace Poeltl with a rookie, as the rookie could never fill those shoes.

RJ's fit, while not perfect, still addresses a major weakness for the team. Nobody can get to the basket, and apply rim pressure and draw fouls like RJ.

Ingram's fit is his jump shooting. Until Gradey or Walter can be trusted to fill that role, BI will help in the short term.

Ideally, you want to find a big that is versatile, which means more PF/C than a straight C. But this isn't ideal world and beggars can't be choosers. We see this team being outsized, outmuscled, and pushed around on nightly basis and the impact of Poeltl missing any time is much greater than it should be. So CLEARLY whatever the **** they put out there in the front court ain't working, we need real size, and it's not going to work by doubling down on the same formula by adding another 6' 7" guy with long arms occupying similar space as your would-be best player. And this guy will probably render last year's 31st pick obsolete who was older and had very limited game to begin with. Lastly, it doesn't matter whatever the **** this FO feels comfortable with because if it did, we wouldn't be in the position we are in now. Argument against Maluach is understandable for now but with Filipkowski, it didn't make sense then and it makes even less sense now that we've picked CMB and Mogbo will probably be part-timing on G league team if everyone's healthy as a 24-year-old.

There is a greater chance Maluach or Filipkowski would be outmuscled over Mogbo or CMB getting outmuscled on the floor. All Maluach or Filipkowski have is a bit more length. It would be like saying I want Ayton over Draymond on D, because Ayton is taller.

The point I was making before is just having tall guys (true C) on the floor for 48mins is not feasible in the new NBA. Even Gobert, one of the best, gets played off the floor late in games.

[Pointgod]

Scottie Barnes

Not sure I understand that inclusion as a reason to be high on this team.

I should have clarified. According to Michael Pena who was discussing the Raptors with Zach Lowe he believes in Scottie Barnes surrounded by more talent as one of the reasons to be high on the Raptors.

[tsherkin]

I should have clarified. According to Michael Pena who was discussing the Raptors with Zach Lowe he believes in Scottie Barnes surrounded by more talent as one of the reasons to be high on the Raptors.

Thanks for that.

Interesting. Barnes' D is certainly a net positive for us. It's his offense I'm more worried about, and definitely not something to be high on. But yeah, if he can focus on just that, back-stopping our defense with less offensive responsibility, I could see how that makes sense.

[junot111]

This is going to come off as more haterish than intended, but...

Did (literally anyone) identify some convincing points for being high on Raptors?

You’re adding a fairly efficient 22ppg scorer along with a healthy IQ. It’s also not unreasonable to think our young guys will come in better than last year.

It’s actually very easy to be high on this team. Obviously they need to be healthy but there is a lot to like.

Look at how high some analysts are about the Pistons and look at their starting lineup. It ain’t good. We can’t rely on what analysts say. These same analysts were high on the Sixers, Pelicans, Kings and Suns last year. And we all saw how that turned out.

We aren’t an elite team but we don’t have to be. This team winning 40-45 games would be a huge step in the right direction especially when you factor in the continued growth of our young players and the fact we have all of our picks which not many teams do.

And to a smaller extent, another year and training camp under darko could result in an improvement if the system starts to click. Of course none of those improvements are guaranteed and things can go south if the team can't stay healthy or doesn't mesh, but I'm surprised that so many analysts don't even acknowledge the upside of the team

[MoneyBall]

If they finish 7th, is that not a successful season for them? That's something you can build on with the young core they have.

[arbsn]

Raps just don’t have a real guy yet

It could be Scottie.. he has the potential.. does he want it?

Without at least a top 20 player you are nothing in this league.

7-10 sounds like a very realistic finish for us.

[anotherhomer]

Zach Lowe has some good points.

We are a .500 team it seems, which isn't the worst thing, with some young players.
I can't complain about that

[canada_dry]

Around. 500 in that 6-10th seed range is basically the expectation though no? 45 wins would be considered a really good season. 40-43 most likely. We hopefully build from there.

Id take a top 12-14 defense. I'd take an offense that isn't bottom 5 at least. We move from there.

What more are people expecting?



Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

vegas over/under is 37.5

Yeah. I know. 38 wins if healthy is underwhelming. I just don't see anyone in here trying to argue its a 50 win team though. Where are these guys?

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

Around. 500 in that 6-10th seed range is basically the expectation though no? 45 wins would be considered a really good season. 40-43 most likely. We hopefully build from there.

Id take a top 12-14 defense. I'd take an offense that isn't bottom 5 at least. We move from there.

What more are people expecting?



Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

vegas over/under is 37.5

Yeah. I know. 38 wins if healthy is underwhelming. I just don't see anyone in here trying to argue its a 50 win team though. Where are these guys?

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

These guys, they spent like it too!

[Los_29]

Ideally, you want to find a big that is versatile, which means more PF/C than a straight C. But this isn't ideal world and beggars can't be choosers. We see this team being outsized, outmuscled, and pushed around on nightly basis and the impact of Poeltl missing any time is much greater than it should be. So CLEARLY whatever the **** they put out there in the front court ain't working, we need real size, and it's not going to work by doubling down on the same formula by adding another 6' 7" guy with long arms occupying similar space as your would-be best player. And this guy will probably render last year's 31st pick obsolete who was older and had very limited game to begin with. Lastly, it doesn't matter whatever the **** this FO feels comfortable with because if it did, we wouldn't be in the position we are in now. Argument against Maluach is understandable for now but with Filipkowski, it didn't make sense then and it makes even less sense now that we've picked CMB and Mogbo will probably be part-timing on G league team if everyone's healthy as a 24-year-old.

Filipowski can really shoot it but provides zero rim protection, can’t defend out on the perimeter, can’t really create his own shot. It’s fun to think of a big that can shoot but it means very little if they can’t do anything else.

Maybe. But we gonna pretend Mogbo isn't just as limited if not more? He certainly ain't multi-faceted. At least, Filipkowski (and Chomche) would make the new minimum big guy (who seem to have similar weaknesses as Filipkowski on D) unnecessary and we don't have to worry about being a tax team as much and another open spot for someone like AJ Lawson.

Mogbo also has his flaws. We don’t know if he will stay in the league. But it’s easier for Mogbo to learn how to shoot than for Filipowski to become a better athlete and defender. Maybe Filipowski sticks around for a bit and Mogbo doesn’t. It won’t matter because we know Filipowski’s limitations will always be there.