RealGM 2025 Greatest Peaks Project Discussion Thread

[tsherkin]

I don’t think MJ not being first is silly. I think MJ losing so comfortably to LeBron and Kareem with many people not even having MJ on their ballots is silly

That's your business, I guess, but even that is not really something valid as a criticism of others. Criteria aren't always the same, there are a BUNCH of guys with statistical arguments against MJ's peak, there are some much more potent defenders in the mix, etc, etc. The idea that he is infallibly top-3 isn't really a valid stance (even if selecting him there remains a valid and defensible choice, of course).

[KembaWalker]

Don’t know how it’s possible but Jordan somehow became underrated on this board

I don't think he's underrated, I think opinions differ decades after he retired. Which is normal. Things have changed, in ways which are similar to what happened for the guys who played in the 60s and 70s, just the same. There's no sense holding up a player as EXALTED when there are tangible reasons to alter one's opinion... to one degree or another.

The minute you introduce the idea that an opinion cannot ever be challenged, you abandon quality of discourse and start talking about faith instead of reason.

I don’t think MJ not being first is silly. I think MJ losing so comfortably to LeBron and Kareem with many people not even having MJ on their ballots is silly

unfortunately, elections often arent won by the best candidates, but the ones that recruit the most voters to the poll

[AEnigma]

I don't think he's underrated, I think opinions differ decades after he retired. Which is normal. Things have changed, in ways which are similar to what happened for the guys who played in the 60s and 70s, just the same. There's no sense holding up a player as EXALTED when there are tangible reasons to alter one's opinion... to one degree or another.

The minute you introduce the idea that an opinion cannot ever be challenged, you abandon quality of discourse and start talking about faith instead of reason.

I don’t think MJ not being first is silly. I think MJ losing so comfortably to LeBron and Kareem with many people not even having MJ on their ballots is silly

unfortunately, elections often arent won by the best candidates, but the ones that recruit the most voters to the poll

Plato always knew.

[KembaWalker]

I don’t think MJ not being first is silly. I think MJ losing so comfortably to LeBron and Kareem with many people not even having MJ on their ballots is silly

unfortunately, elections often arent won by the best candidates, but the ones that recruit the most voters to the poll

Plato always knew.

yikes

[AEnigma]

If people also want to use this thread to touch on their approach in assessing peaks, that could help avoid some of the directionless back-and-forth we see when one party assumes their method of assessment is the same as another’s.

Another potential use for this thread could be thoughts on which players should have been included in 2022 or alternatively which players would be good to see included in this iteration (again, fingers crossed there is enough energy for us to hit 60 inductions this time).

As a reminder, here were the excluded players receiving votes in 2022’s fiftieth thread:
Paul Pierce, Elton Brand, Manu Ginobili, Kevin Love, Paul George, Jimmy Butler, Rudy Gobert, Jayson Tatum, Connie Hawkins, Dave Cowens, Bob McAdoo, Sidney Moncrief, Kevin McHale, John Stockton, Clyde Drexler, Reggie Miller, Dikembe Mutombo, Grant Hill.

Of those, I would definitely support Dave Cowens (wanted him in the top fifty back then), Jimmy Butler (feel stronger about him after the second Finals run), Jayson Tatum (improved), Paul George, Bob McAdoo, Kevin McHale, Connie Hawkins, and Manu Ginobili. Adding Shai as someone who would not have been considered previously but almost certainly will make the list now, and that leaves one spot for me. Currently leaning toward Reggie Miller, but would also consider Grant Hill, Vince Carter, Marques Johnson…

I'd start to consider Lillard if there are more spots.

I know it's just an example, and #2 is far too early, but I appreciate seeing it because I would appreciate '04 AK getting on the list somewhere this year. I'm not certain if that team wins 10 games without AK.

Would you have included him on the 2022 list, and if so, over whom? What about the names I listed previously in that #50-60 range?

I probably have Kirilenko more as a top 75 peak, along with three of my previous honourable mentions, Bernard King, Ray Allen, yeah probably Lillard… oh, I just noticed Dolph Schayes never made any of these lists, so throw him in for the purposes of era representation, and possibly Paul Arizin while we are at it… and now we are getting into the area where I would at least consider 1994 Dikembe, 1992 Rodman, 2002 Rasheed, 2003 Kidd, 2007 BDiddy, 2005/08 Pierce, etc., but I am not sure how much energy people will have to stretch this to 75.

I think it is a pretty big obstacle for Kirilenko that he was basically functioning as a roleplayer in all his postseasons, so really all there is to judge is that laudatory 2004-06 regular season stretch. Again, definite top 75 peak imo, but cracking the top 50 or even 60 with no noteworthy postseason sample feels ambitious at first glance.

Bumping this slightly because of the new series Thinking Basketball is running on the “greatest peaks of the past 25 years”. I expect someone will make a dedicated thread on it, but this first episode was about Honourable Mentions, which is particularly germane to the above discussion. Before the podcast, I identified the following 22 players as obvious locks, according to the expressed standard that basically all the included players were top five guys at their peaks: Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, McGrady, Nash, Dirk, Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Howard, Chris Paul, Durant, Curry, Harden, Kawhi, Davis, Giannis, Jokic, Embiid, Tatum, Luka, Shai.

I put their HMs in spoilers for those who want to listen blind, as well as my inferred three names who were transparently not part of the discussion:

Spoiler:

Jokingly mentioned: Jrue Holiday, Al Horford, Rip Hamilton.
Mentioned but not seriously considered: Andrei Kirilenko, Yao Ming, Brandon Roy, Blake Griffin, Kevin Love, Carmelo Anthony, Elton Brand, Chris Webber, Amar’e Stoudemire.
Considered but not making the cut: Derrick Rose, Vince Carter, Ray Allen, Pau Gasol, Jalen Brunson.
Not making the cut but could be argued top 24/25: Paul George, Damian Lillard, Deron Williams, Baron Davis, Allen Iverson.
Not making the cut but could be argued up to top 22: Russell Westbrook, Jimmy Butler, Paul Pierce.
Not mentioned so therefore probably made the cut?: Manu Ginobili, Draymond Green, Jason Kidd.

[Special_Puppy]

Another potential use for this thread could be thoughts on which players should have been included in 2022 or alternatively which players would be good to see included in this iteration (again, fingers crossed there is enough energy for us to hit 60 inductions this time).

As a reminder, here were the excluded players receiving votes in 2022’s fiftieth thread:
Paul Pierce, Elton Brand, Manu Ginobili, Kevin Love, Paul George, Jimmy Butler, Rudy Gobert, Jayson Tatum, Connie Hawkins, Dave Cowens, Bob McAdoo, Sidney Moncrief, Kevin McHale, John Stockton, Clyde Drexler, Reggie Miller, Dikembe Mutombo, Grant Hill.

Of those, I would definitely support Dave Cowens (wanted him in the top fifty back then), Jimmy Butler (feel stronger about him after the second Finals run), Jayson Tatum (improved), Paul George, Bob McAdoo, Kevin McHale, Connie Hawkins, and Manu Ginobili. Adding Shai as someone who would not have been considered previously but almost certainly will make the list now, and that leaves one spot for me. Currently leaning toward Reggie Miller, but would also consider Grant Hill, Vince Carter, Marques Johnson…

I'd start to consider Lillard if there are more spots.

I know it's just an example, and #2 is far too early, but I appreciate seeing it because I would appreciate '04 AK getting on the list somewhere this year. I'm not certain if that team wins 10 games without AK.

Would you have included him on the 2022 list, and if so, over whom? What about the names I listed previously in that #50-60 range?

I probably have Kirilenko more as a top 75 peak, along with three of my previous honourable mentions, Bernard King, Ray Allen, yeah probably Lillard… oh, I just noticed Dolph Schayes never made any of these lists, so throw him in for the purposes of era representation, and possibly Paul Arizin while we are at it… and now we are getting into the area where I would at least consider 1994 Dikembe, 1992 Rodman, 2002 Rasheed, 2003 Kidd, 2007 BDiddy, 2005/08 Pierce, etc., but I am not sure how much energy people will have to stretch this to 75.

I think it is a pretty big obstacle for Kirilenko that he was basically functioning as a roleplayer in all his postseasons, so really all there is to judge is that laudatory 2004-06 regular season stretch. Again, definite top 75 peak imo, but cracking the top 50 or even 60 with no noteworthy postseason sample feels ambitious at first glance.

Bumping this slightly because of the new series Thinking Basketball is running on the “greatest peaks of the past 25 years”. I expect someone will make a dedicated thread on it, but this first episode was about Honourable Mentions, which is particularly germane to the above discussion. Before the podcast, I identified the following 22 players as obvious locks, according to the expressed standard that basically all the included players were top five guys at their peaks: Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, McGrady, Nash, Dirk, Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Howard, Chris Paul, Durant, Curry, Harden, Kawhi, Davis, Giannis, Jokic, Embiid, Tatum, Luka, Shai.

I put their HMs in spoilers for those who want to listen blind, as well as my inferred three names who were transparently not part of the discussion:

Spoiler:

Jokingly mentioned: Jrue Holiday, Al Horford, Rip Hamilton.
Mentioned but not seriously considered: Andrei Kirilenko, Yao Ming, Brandon Roy, Blake Griffin, Kevin Love, Carmelo Anthony, Elton Brand, Chris Webber, Amar’e Stoudemire.
Considered but not making the cut: Derrick Rose, Vince Carter, Ray Allen, Pau Gasol, Jalen Brunson.
Not making the cut but could be argued top 24/25: Paul George, Damian Lillard, Deron Williams, Baron Davis, Allen Iverson.
Not making the cut but could be argued up to top 22: Russell Westbrook, Jimmy Butler, Paul Pierce.
Not mentioned so therefore probably made the cut?: Manu Ginobili, Draymond Green, Jason Kidd.

Shocked Jrue Holiday isn't in their top 5

[eminence]

Dang, Rudy didn't even get a mention. Same for the Walli?!?

[AEnigma]

Dang, Rudy didn't even get a mention. Same for the Walli?!?

Possible I just missed them during my listen, but yeah, tough to look at Cody quickly listing the volume scoring power forwards and not see those three as glaring omissions by comparison. Rip Hamilton was the only Piston to even receive a (mock) shoutout.

And if one of the Wallaces did crack the top 25 (and perhaps the omission of both was to focus on a dedicated comparison between the two), then I have a bigger question about one omitted name who seems to have fit very naturally with the discussion in this episode.

[eminence]

Dang, Rudy didn't even get a mention. Same for the Walli?!?

Possible I just missed them during my listen, but yeah, tough to look at Cody quickly listing the volume scoring power forwards and not see those three as glaring omissions by comparison. Rip Hamilton was the only Piston to even receive a (mock) shoutout.

And if one of the Wallaces did crack the top 25 (and perhaps the omission of both was to focus on a dedicated comparison between the two), then I have a bigger question about one omitted name who seems to have fit very naturally with the discussion in this episode.

I'm about half through and coming back to finish later, but your listings seem pretty accurate so far.

Even if I completely ignored the 'Mentioned but not seriously considered' tier, it still feels like a lot of love for the offensive guys in these rankings. The 26-38 guys (unordered) are all guys who had more impact on offense in my estimation (George/Butler/Gasol were at least good defenders in prime but probably still more offensive impact).

Maybe this was kind of the offensive HM list and they'll touch on defensive guys next pod? That's best I could hope for.

Finished up, and I think your list was pretty complete on who they covered. Maybe I missed a name or two as well, but I'm 98% sure I didn't catch a Wallace or Gobert. My above hope seems very unlikely after finishing as well.

So those 3 would be my HMs to their HMs.

[Djoker]

Bumping this slightly because of the new series Thinking Basketball is running on the “greatest peaks of the past 25 years”. I expect someone will make a dedicated thread on it, but this first episode was about Honourable Mentions, which is particularly germane to the above discussion. Before the podcast, I identified the following 22 players as obvious locks, according to the expressed standard that basically all the included players were top five guys at their peaks: Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, McGrady, Nash, Dirk, Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Howard, Chris Paul, Durant, Curry, Harden, Kawhi, Davis, Giannis, Jokic, Embiid, Tatum, Luka, Shai.

I put their HMs in spoilers for those who want to listen blind, as well as my inferred three names who were transparently not part of the discussion:

Spoiler:

Jokingly mentioned: Jrue Holiday, Al Horford, Rip Hamilton.
Mentioned but not seriously considered: Andrei Kirilenko, Yao Ming, Brandon Roy, Blake Griffin, Kevin Love, Carmelo Anthony, Elton Brand, Chris Webber, Amar’e Stoudemire.
Considered but not making the cut: Derrick Rose, Vince Carter, Ray Allen, Pau Gasol, Jalen Brunson.
Not making the cut but could be argued top 24/25: Paul George, Damian Lillard, Deron Williams, Baron Davis, Allen Iverson.
Not making the cut but could be argued up to top 22: Russell Westbrook, Jimmy Butler, Paul Pierce.
Not mentioned so therefore probably made the cut?: Manu Ginobili, Draymond Green, Jason Kidd.

I like your 22 locks. I agree with everyone on there except Tatum.

I can easily see guys like Westbrook, Rose, Iverson, Manu, Chauncey all above him. Like he might be top 25 but he's not a lock IMO.

[AEnigma]

Bumping this slightly because of the new series Thinking Basketball is running on the “greatest peaks of the past 25 years”. I expect someone will make a dedicated thread on it, but this first episode was about Honourable Mentions, which is particularly germane to the above discussion. Before the podcast, I identified the following 22 players as obvious locks, according to the expressed standard that basically all the included players were top five guys at their peaks: Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, McGrady, Nash, Dirk, Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Howard, Chris Paul, Durant, Curry, Harden, Kawhi, Davis, Giannis, Jokic, Embiid, Tatum, Luka, Shai.

I put their HMs in spoilers for those who want to listen blind, as well as my inferred three names who were transparently not part of the discussion:

Spoiler:

Jokingly mentioned: Jrue Holiday, Al Horford, Rip Hamilton.
Mentioned but not seriously considered: Andrei Kirilenko, Yao Ming, Brandon Roy, Blake Griffin, Kevin Love, Carmelo Anthony, Elton Brand, Chris Webber, Amar’e Stoudemire.
Considered but not making the cut: Derrick Rose, Vince Carter, Ray Allen, Pau Gasol, Jalen Brunson.
Not making the cut but could be argued top 24/25: Paul George, Damian Lillard, Deron Williams, Baron Davis, Allen Iverson.
Not making the cut but could be argued up to top 22: Russell Westbrook, Jimmy Butler, Paul Pierce.
Not mentioned so therefore probably made the cut?: Manu Ginobili, Draymond Green, Jason Kidd.

I like your 22 locks. I agree with everyone on there except Tatum.

I can easily see guys like Westbrook, Rose, Iverson, Manu, Chauncey all above him. Like he might be top 25 but he's not a lock IMO.

Not so much a personal lock as an educated read on what Ben and Cody would treat as a lock. He could finish anywhere from #22-25 — and I feel even more confident in that prediction after they made a point of indicating that they had #22 on a lower tier than #21 — but I was confident they were not going to be able to come together on putting four guys ahead of him. On my personal list, I group him in with Manu, Butler and George competing for #24-25.

Sidenote, I like the extreme contrast between your list of honourable mentions and Eminence’s list. I suppose I took the middle ground there.

[trelos6]

Before the podcast, I identified the following 22 players as obvious locks, according to the expressed standard that basically all the included players were top five guys at their peaks: Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, McGrady, Nash, Dirk, Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Howard, Chris Paul, Durant, Curry, Harden, Kawhi, Davis, Giannis, Jokic, Embiid, Tatum, Luka, Shai.

I put their HMs in spoilers for those who want to listen blind, as well as my inferred three names who were transparently not part of the discussion:

Spoiler:

Jokingly mentioned: Jrue Holiday, Al Horford, Rip Hamilton.
Mentioned but not seriously considered: Andrei Kirilenko, Yao Ming, Brandon Roy, Blake Griffin, Kevin Love, Carmelo Anthony, Elton Brand, Chris Webber, Amar’e Stoudemire.
Considered but not making the cut: Derrick Rose, Vince Carter, Ray Allen, Pau Gasol, Jalen Brunson.
Not making the cut but could be argued top 24/25: Paul George, Damian Lillard, Deron Williams, Baron Davis, Allen Iverson.
Not making the cut but could be argued up to top 22: Russell Westbrook, Jimmy Butler, Paul Pierce.
Not mentioned so therefore probably made the cut?: Manu Ginobili, Draymond Green, Jason Kidd.

I think you nailed it. I have those 22 as locks. Tatum and Embiid at 21,22 to be sure. Then I predict Draymond, Kidd and Manu in the last 3.

[Top10alltime]

Before the podcast, I identified the following 22 players as obvious locks, according to the expressed standard that basically all the included players were top five guys at their peaks: Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, McGrady, Nash, Dirk, Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Howard, Chris Paul, Durant, Curry, Harden, Kawhi, Davis, Giannis, Jokic, Embiid, Tatum, Luka, Shai.

I put their HMs in spoilers for those who want to listen blind, as well as my inferred three names who were transparently not part of the discussion:

Spoiler:

Jokingly mentioned: Jrue Holiday, Al Horford, Rip Hamilton.
Mentioned but not seriously considered: Andrei Kirilenko, Yao Ming, Brandon Roy, Blake Griffin, Kevin Love, Carmelo Anthony, Elton Brand, Chris Webber, Amar’e Stoudemire.
Considered but not making the cut: Derrick Rose, Vince Carter, Ray Allen, Pau Gasol, Jalen Brunson.
Not making the cut but could be argued top 24/25: Paul George, Damian Lillard, Deron Williams, Baron Davis, Allen Iverson.
Not making the cut but could be argued up to top 22: Russell Westbrook, Jimmy Butler, Paul Pierce.
Not mentioned so therefore probably made the cut?: Manu Ginobili, Draymond Green, Jason Kidd.

I think you nailed it. I have those 22 as locks. Tatum and Embiid at 21,22 to be sure. Then I predict Draymond, Kidd and Manu in the last 3.

[eminence]

Sidenote, I like the extreme contrast between your list of honourable mentions and Eminence’s list. I suppose I took the middle ground there.

I'm not sure what my list would actually look like. If they'd only had ~5 HMs I probably wouldn't have brought it up. But when they mentioned 40-50 guys (counting the 25 guys we're guessing will make the list) it just came across as them leaving out the whole 'paint protector who doesn't do much else' archetype with neither Wallace or Gobert mentioned. Which when on the other side of the court you're bringing up Deron Williams/Blake Griffin/etc that feels like either a major omission or a major difference in evaluation.

There are of course differences in the offensive guys I'd have mentioned as well. Brunson as a current example, I think there might be 3 current perimeter guys I'd prefer outside of our locks in Haliburton, Mitchell, and Edwards. But it felt less major than the complete absence of the rim protectors.

Or maybe Rudy/Ben are both top 10 and I'll feel silly.

[Doctor MJ]

Project Locked. Please see this announcement:

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