Did Zach Lowe identify some convincing points for being low on Raptors?

[Harry Palmer]

I don’t see the plan, I think we’re pretty locked in to a low ceiling mehburger. I really don’t see any design unfolding, we feel like a placeholder that teams that might matter will play against. I don’t see anything we’ll be particularly good at, nor do I see us competing for lottery balls. As for things like ‘team spirit’, underrated, or w/e, find me a team whose fans don’t think that about their team when their team is neither very good or very bad. Feels very..say it with me…treadmill.

Otoh I would probably have been even more pessimistic about the Jays, so…

It really wasn't that long ago that people said the same thing about the Pacers and Cavs.

True, but it also wasn’t that long ago that people said the same thing about a whole bunch of mediocre teams, too. I get your point, I was very surprised by Indiana’s run, so yeah, anything’s possible in the East in a sense, but even then the odds are much, much more likely to end up like all the non-exceptions.

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

I don't think talent is the problem, it's what we're (over) paying them.

[tsherkin]

I don’t see the plan, I think we’re pretty locked in to a low ceiling mehburger. I really don’t see any design unfolding, we feel like a placeholder that teams that might matter will play against. I don’t see anything we’ll be particularly good at, nor do I see us competing for lottery balls. As for things like ‘team spirit’, underrated, or w/e, find me a team whose fans don’t think that about their team when their team is neither very good or very bad. Feels very..say it with me…treadmill.

Otoh I would probably have been even more pessimistic about the Jays, so…

It really wasn't that long ago that people said the same thing about the Pacers and Cavs.

True, but it also wasn’t that long ago that people said the same thing about a whole bunch of mediocre teams, too. I get your point, I was very surprised by Indiana’s run, so yeah, anything’s possible in the East in a sense, but even then the odds are much, much more likely to end up like all the non-exceptions.

Opportunities may arise, for sure, but as you say, the layer of mediocrity in the league is filled with teams like us. We'll see how it goes. Hopefully, we can make a move on a player who is about to make that rise. That's what Indy and OKC both did, they nabbed someone who turned into a monster once they changed scenery. A little further along his personal timeline, that's kind of what we're hoping to do with BI, though obviously we'd like someone younger and healthier, and someone to pair with him.

Everything we're seeing so far does suggest .500-ish in the upcoming season, so any future will depend rather heavily on what we do on top of what's already here, and any sort of internal development we get.

[tsherkin]

I don't think talent is the problem, it's what we're (over) paying them.

This doesn't really appear to be the case. Our specific talent is precisely why our ceiling is lower, or at least the realized component of that talent. We don't have an elite player. We definitely don't have two. We've got some reasonable, lower-ceiling youth, some mediocre vets, Scottie, and we have BI incoming. So unless someone takes a leap, we will very much need a talent injection.

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

I don't think talent is the problem, it's what we're (over) paying them.

This doesn't really appear to be the case. Our specific talent is precisely why our ceiling is lower, or at least the realized component of that talent. We don't have an elite player. We definitely don't have two. We've got some reasonable, lower-ceiling youth, some mediocre vets, Scottie, and we have BI incoming. So unless someone takes a leap, we will very much need a talent injection.

We're a 36-42W team. Paying 200M for that, leaves little room for growth.

Like, we're paying Scottie 44M. What's Giddie going for this year?

[tsherkin]

We're a 36-42W team. Paying 200M for that, leaves little room for growth.

Like, we're paying Scottie 44M. What's Giddie going for this year?

Right, but even if we're paying a little more than we might have otherwise done, what's that costing us? No signing of real consequence to our ability to elevate our ceiling. We might get a nice bench player. We're sure not signing a star. The salary stuff isn't really impeding us from much of anything at the moment, because that's not how the type of talent we need is acquired.

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

We're a 36-42W team. Paying 200M for that, leaves little room for growth.

Like, we're paying Scottie 44M. What's Giddie going for this year?

Right, but even if we're paying a little more than we might have otherwise done, what's that costing us? No signing of real consequence to our ability to elevate our ceiling. We might get a nice bench player. We're sure not signing a star. The salary stuff isn't really impeding us from much of anything at the moment, because that's not how the type of talent we need is acquired.

Another re-build or tear down. The contracts don't look very positive.

[tsherkin]

Another re-build or tear down. The contracts don't look very positive.

We have been dog-ass for too long. Ownership 100% isn't going to tolerate another tear-down. We'll need to try and reload on the fly, and hope that we can eventually get RJ and others looking tasty enough to pull in some intriguing youth or some decent vets with picks or SOMETHING. I don't see us dumping everything and being fully crap for at least a couple of seasons yet.

[DreamTeam09]

I don't think talent is the problem, it's what we're (over) paying them.

This doesn't really appear to be the case. Our specific talent is precisely why our ceiling is lower, or at least the realized component of that talent. We don't have an elite player. We definitely don't have two. We've got some reasonable, lower-ceiling youth, some mediocre vets, Scottie, and we have BI incoming. So unless someone takes a leap, we will very much need a talent injection.

We're a 36-42W team. Paying 200M for that, leaves little room for growth.

Like, we're paying Scottie 44M. What's Giddie going for this year?

Again, money has to be spent, & we are over the tax by less than a minimum contract, I don't even understand why fans are even concerned about TAX lines anymore, aprons sure I can see why fans would wanna stay away from the aprons, but you guys bringing up tax for what purpose? If MLSE came out & said F the tax then what? Would that change your perception?
Chicago would happily pay Barnes more than giddey btw, any sane should

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

Another re-build or tear down. The contracts don't look very positive.

We have been dog-ass for too long. Ownership 100% isn't going to tolerate another tear-down. We'll need to try and reload on the fly, and hope that we can eventually get RJ and others looking tasty enough to pull in some intriguing youth or some decent vets with picks or SOMETHING. I don't see us dumping everything and being fully crap for at least a couple of seasons yet.

I could see a pivot to CMB. That's a totally different time-line though.

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

This doesn't really appear to be the case. Our specific talent is precisely why our ceiling is lower, or at least the realized component of that talent. We don't have an elite player. We definitely don't have two. We've got some reasonable, lower-ceiling youth, some mediocre vets, Scottie, and we have BI incoming. So unless someone takes a leap, we will very much need a talent injection.

We're a 36-42W team. Paying 200M for that, leaves little room for growth.

Like, we're paying Scottie 44M. What's Giddie going for this year?

Again, money has to be spent, & we are over the tax by less than a minimum contract, I don't even understand why fans are even concerned about TAX lines anymore, aprons sure I can see why fans would wanna stay away from the aprons, but you guys bringing up tax for what purpose? If MLSE came out & said F the tax then what? Would that change your perception?
Chicago would happily pay Barnes more than giddey btw, any sane should

Barnes is an asset still. I'm just saying, it might be time to sell.

[tsherkin]

I could see a pivot to CMB. That's a totally different time-line though.

I think they'd have to be mainlining crack and concussive head injuries to even think about that any time soon, particularly on the heels of trying to force another non-offensive star player into that role...

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

I could see a pivot to CMB. That's a totally different time-line though.

I think they'd have to be mainlining crack and concussive head injuries to even think about that any time soon, particularly on the heels of trying to force another non-offensive star player into that role...

Sure, but if Barnes turns out to be what he was last year. We can't keep going down that road.

[tsherkin]

Sure, but if Barnes turns out to be what he was last year. We can't keep going down that road.

You mean, what he's been the entire time, including prior to the draft? Yes, we need to pivot away from him as an offensive focus as quickly as possible, I agree.

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

Sure, but if Barnes turns out to be what he was last year. We can't keep going down that road.

You mean, what he's been the entire time, including prior to the draft? Yes, we need to pivot away from him as an offensive focus as quickly as possible, I agree.

That's why Giddey's avilable. He's (Barnes)not getting that next contract.

[tsherkin]

That's why Giddey's avilable. He's not getting that next contract.

Giddey would be a downgrade defensively and isn't a focal offensive player any more than Barnes. He had a better year shooting as a mid-teens scorer, but that means only so much to us. Not sure why he's even in this discussion.

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

That's why Giddey's avilable. He's not getting that next contract.

Giddey would be a downgrade defensively and isn't a focal offensive player any more than Barnes. He had a better year shooting as a mid-teens scorer, but that means only so much to us. Not sure why he's even in this discussion.

It's a comp. Look at how OKC handles similar assets. They don't get trapped over paying mid tier players.

[tsherkin]

It's a comp. Look at how OKC handles similar assets. They don't get trapped over paying mid tier players.

Very easy to move guys like that when you've already got Shai to lean on. And Chet. And Jalen Williams. And they got a 2x All-Defensive Team player back in return for him.

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

It's a comp. Look at how OKC handles similar assets. They don't get trapped over paying mid tier players.

Very easy to move guys like that when you've already got Shai to lean on. And Chet. And Jalen Williams. And they got a 2x All-Defensive Team player back in return for him.

The problem is we didn't give him the key's soon enough. We made the "hard choice" harder.

The roller blading offseason doesn't sell me on this long term.

[MoneyBall]

I don’t see the plan, I think we’re pretty locked in to a low ceiling mehburger. I really don’t see any design unfolding, we feel like a placeholder that teams that might matter will play against. I don’t see anything we’ll be particularly good at, nor do I see us competing for lottery balls. As for things like ‘team spirit’, underrated, or w/e, find me a team whose fans don’t think that about their team when their team is neither very good or very bad. Feels very..say it with me…treadmill.

Otoh I would probably have been even more pessimistic about the Jays, so…

It really wasn't that long ago that people said the same thing about the Pacers and Cavs.

True, but it also wasn’t that long ago that people said the same thing about a whole bunch of mediocre teams, too. I get your point, I was very surprised by Indiana’s run, so yeah, anything’s possible in the East in a sense, but even then the odds are much, much more likely to end up like all the non-exceptions.

I just don't see any better alternatives. We have all our picks and a good mix of assets to make strong offers for the next disgruntled star. We have to be patient because true star players are extremely difficult to attain. In the meantime, focus on internal growth and setting a good winning culture.