A RealGM Scandal, and a Conversation about Projects

[Top10alltime]

Hello netizens of RealGM's PC Board,

I'm afraid we've got a scandal on our hands that's going to stop a current project, shed light on a previous project, and I'd say demand a community conversation not just about rules, but what we should try to do next.

The current project that is being halted is:

2025 Peaks Project

The previous project that was part of this same story was:

2024 Retro POY Project Update

So what's going on?

1. From multiple sources, we've received proof of posters who were either Previously Banned or Sock Puppets.

2. The two key (Previously Banned) accounts here that I'll focus on are OhayoKD & AEnigma.

3. In these last two projects, there has been a conspiracy launched on a discord to create new iterations of prior PC Board projects, and skew the results.

4. The leader of the direct conspiracy was OhayoKD, who didn't simply recruit like-minded people from elsewhere to take over the projects, but explicitly scripted many of the voters ballots (the number they reference is 10) - some of whom by their own admission "don't know much about basketball" - in service of specifically trying to lower Michael Jordan's ranking. As part of this process, OhayoKD specifically voted for Bill Russell to make himself look more credible despite being lower on Russell than Jordan, and both in prior projects and elsewhere on RealGM used Sock Puppet accounts to further manipulate perception.

5. AEnigma knew all of this was happening and stated that when he included Jordan on his ballot, it was done - like OhayoKD - to throw off suspicion and make the project seem more credible.

6. As part of the recruitment of posters to take part in these "missions" (OhayoKD's wording), many new RealGM accounts were created which appear to mostly be real people whose awareness of how unethical this all was poor. At this time we are not banning these accounts - we'd much rather new users simply learn our expectations and be productive members of the community - but do be aware that we will keep an eye on these accounts in the future, and will not cut slack if they cause more problems.

Some background

For anyone looking to understand the principles of this sort of thing, I'd recommend reading up on Goodhart's Law. In a nutshell, The PC Board's projects got goodharted once some folks started caring so much about the final results that they prioritized that over the actual goal of the projects, which is get people together to talk about basketball, and then learn together.

Before I leave the conversation about these particular posters, I'll speak to them directly:

OhayoKD & AEnigma, whoever you guys are, stop using your intelligence and talents to mess up other people's journeys. I know from what was shared that you have a tremendous disrespect for anyone who you believe is wrong about particular basketball opinions, and I just have to say, you have no idea how small you look to everyone else that you've let this disrespect fester to the point it has.

Because of what you've done, if people outside of RealGM talk about these particular projects you've put so much into, the fact - say - that Jordan ranks lower than elsewhere in basketball consensus is not going to have people talking about a shift in opinion among hard core basketball nerds, but rather that pro-LeBron basketball nerds were so obsessed with being anti-Jordan that they contaminated projects to try to hurt Jordan and his "stans".

The theory that Jordan-heads are the craziest homers around? Well, it just got a lot weaker, because of y'all. Many crazy Jordan-heads exist...but they didn't do this. You did.

As I've said, you don't look "dumb" - I have no doubt you've got plenty high IQs - but you do look incredibly immature. I'm quite sure you guys aren't teenagers, but that's where your development seems to have arrested, and it's a shame. I urge you to take a step back, and think about what you want to accomplish with your life, because THIS, aside from everything else that it did to everyone else, wasted your time and efforts in service of undermining a community that wasn't actually talking about anything truly important anyway.

This is a KID'S GAME. Never forget that.

The fact that we adults spend so much time on it is silly, but so long as it let's us take a breather from the actual serious stuff in our life, and we try to do more good than harm, it's fine. That's what hobbies are for. But when you devote yourself to a hobby of messing with other people's hobbies, it's only going to take your darker places without any real benefit.

Going Forward

While people can comment on what I've communicated above, the important thing is what we do going forward, and so now I'm going to lay out some questions for the community to consider, and while it won't be a formal democracy, the will of the community is important to us mods.

1. We are pausing the Peaks project, and there should be a discussion about what to do with it. It goes without saying that the existing votes that have already taken place are not meaningful, and so what do we do about it?

We could start over at #1 with more explicit rules run by a new project runner.
We could just lump all the existing voted in guys together without an ordering and just say "Yeah we talked about those guys already."
We could just stop this iteration of the project, and at a later date start over.
Most generally, we could move away from projects like this which are so goodhart-able by moving on to more qualitative projects.

2. For the Retro POY Update, well, it's already done and I have no intention of erasing it from existence, but the corruption involved will need to be explicitly added to the project's original post, and I will not be merging the results from the Update with the original.

On this project, I really feel for all the sincere posters who felt like they finally got a chance to participate in what many felt was the greatest project we ever ran on the Board, and put in effort for many months to participate. I'm not sure what else to say there, but others can chime in.

3. Me personally, I'm on the fence about whether I'm going to try to run more projects, or even participate in them. I think I can safely say that I've put at least as much effort into building up community through these type of projects since the first one I ran back in 2006, and back then I think it's accurate to say that in some ways these projects "put RealGM" on the map enticing knowledgeable basketball fans from around the internet to join here and participate even if they were already established elsewhere.

For a number of years, I felt that the PC Board was the single best place on the internet to talk serious basketball analysis & history, and while that didn't come out of nowhere - RealGM first broke out in 2001 after ESPN bought Chad Ford's sportstalk.com and turned it into ESPN's own message board which quickly got overrun by the worst of the internet at the time - but actually being a place that people sought out from APBR & APBRmetrics as well all the more typical rivals was a big deal, at least to me.

But times change, the internet changes, most of the old people move on to bigger and better things, and new folks come in for whom the initial things that excited us, are perhaps now mere abstractions that seem unreal, all while the social internet's troll culture grows in both adherents and methods.

I don't want to say goodbye to RealGM as I know it, but I think we have to be honest about the fact that we're never going to be sure again that each poster is an independent human being with an earnest wish to rabbit hole with other human beings to see what they can learn together - and yes, Generative AI looms very large in my mind here, because while I suspect it was involved in this scandal, there's really no doubt that could be taken to far more extreme levels if only there are smart, talented people with nothing better to do with their time than hurt others in unimportant domains.

The big question for me is:

What's the best way to re-build a social internet culture on a site in the mid-2020s?

I ask for people's sincere thoughts after they spend some time in introspection, and consider what makes the most sense for them personally, and for the larger group that when we are here, we are all apart of.

Sincerely,
Doc

I'd like to question this (and mostly because I want to bring back the peaks project )

1. From which sources did you get any proof from? And if so, please cite at least 5 of these sources, because you need to cite evidence, not just say that you have it (otherwise no one will believe you with few exceptions)

2. I don't know if they are previously banned posters and don't really care, both have been active here for years.

3. It seems as if not all of these people were from that Discord, and to me (and really anyone else it should be) the discussion quality matters more than the results! If you care about the results more, it shows a bias in your ways just like the two above banned posters mentioned, and shows that you want some other players to go ahead and win.

4. Did they? And where did they state it was 10, and where did they state some of these people "don't know much about basketball". Again, cite the evidence, not just claim that you have it. And some of the guys that were on this Discord actually voted Jordan top 3 (Falco, Trelos, CEO, Chip, Lets kiss..). I've heard from posters like DJoker and Lessthanjake that the primary effort of this Discord is to hype up Lebron. If so, why did Tsherkin vote for neither Jordan or Lebron? Seems like the votes aren't that skewed after all....

Also the votes were just the poster's OWN stuff formatted: https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/807803459331555363/1399942277685838006/image.png?ex=688ad558&is=688983d8&hm=b2fde9c85dede937009294f80299e46976cab2aeaf51f13af7d3b68232106d30&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=1830&height=295

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/807803459331555363/1399943127187591258/image.png?ex=688ad623&is=688984a3&hm=f1742f3c80f7265542d21058c6e5abb0ca32a04221ceae0732afb66d5a50edac&

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/807803459331555363/1399946779201634334/image.png?ex=688ad989&is=68898809&hm=596070901554ba123246e3d7eb59397dcfeab2c94fafc068f89fbb325a85dfcb&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=1333&height=693

I believe it would be good to provide context on the writing ballot accusation.

5. I will finally place my evidence that AEnigma has nothing to do with this, therefore should be unbanned:
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/807803459331555363/1399932644044574770/image.png?ex=688acc5f&is=68897adf&hm=d75fa9e8fa68987680ca824d663d9c2ab2400e68e74431e66ff92e1ebef8ba9d&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=1240&height=720

This shows AEnigma defending Jordan over Kareem against OhayoKD. So your point about OhayoKD massive Jordan hate stands (although it is not a fairly strong point), but AEnigma? He did nothing.

6. What problems did new posters (such as myself) create? You know, not all of these guys are going against Jordan. I don't know why as soon as Jordan gets removed from #1 peak, you hop in and this stuff happens.


SO I don't see why they should really get banned (at LEAST AEnigma).


I think we should continue the peaks project, it was always about discussion, not really the "skewed votes" but whatever, I've already laid out my arguments against this. I do not think we should start over, but do as you please, I'm perfectly fine with it either way (this year though).

And even though I personally don't care about the RPOY that much, I did state about there needing to be context added in those "written ballots". So I don't think we should be saying it's corrupted.

Also I think we should participate in more projects like this (still continued). It'd be good to have great discussion, and everyone's opinions will be valued all the same...
And just because of new posters like us, doesn't mean you shouldn't take them seriously. I'd say most of us have done a good job by ourselves, in other posts.


Therefore, I do not think any of these actions should be necessary, due to the above.

[babyjax13]

I love the PC board, but am primarily a lurker here. My two cents is to proceed.

Part of what makes the 'culture' of a board is the discussion, and even with vote rigging (which is just pathetic - what are people doing with their lives lmao) there is good discussion to be generated about disagreements. It could also be interesting to contrast the community created list with a core group of people's rankings - kind of an 'experts' vs. 'consensus' format (mods + long time posters + new posters that over time get invited to the 'expert' panel).

I know that might generate a bit more work, but I don't think it would be exponentially more and it could be really fun to see the differences between the aggregate rankings and a list from a smaller group. I think that might save the joy a bit for the people who have been affected by what is one of the weirdest things I've seen on the forum.

Also, to the mods who volunteer your time and effort, thank you!

[sp6r=underrated]

I remember a few months back getting into a nasty argument with aenigma. He believed the lottery was fixed and I did not. Given his desire and efforts to fix a basketball forum's all time ranking, LMFAO, I understand why he thinks conspiracies are afoot everywhere. But the failure of this conspiracy is a data point I am right.

You should be very skeptical the owners could hide all evidence of a 40 year conspiracy, if a minor conspiracy such as this got utterly exposed.

But is the correct response for now.

[Tim Lehrbach]

This is truly disappointing. I am not very active on this board but I consider it a hallowed ground of NBA discussion. I still read all the projects and any threads that interest me.

I saw the murmurs about this conspiracy start to trickle out a while back, and I couldn't help but believe it given the vehemency of the characters involved in their anti-Jordan bias. Turns out it's true. It's really, really, really pathetic.

I don't expect my posts stand out here very much, but there is certainly a record of me agreeing with these two and even, on occasion, egging them on. I am not a LeBron stan, but I have been vocally anti-Jordan in my moments of intellectual weakness. That I may have contributed to this toxic and -- again -- totally pathetic campaign is embarrassing for me.

HOWEVER, I am going to state with my full chest something I have stated many times before: definitively measuring and ranking individual competitors in team sport is inherently fraught.

As Doctor MJ alluded above, the value in this board's projects is not that they settle debates or bestow pride upon the winning sides. Rather, they deepen debates and educate all who participate. So, here's the consolation: even bad faith actors might accidentally contribute to discussion or help facilitate better discussion among the good faith actors. This board ideologues, even going back to good ol' JordansBulls, have always pressed the honest interlocutors to follow arguments to their ends and to provide robust evidence to combat the very ideologies espoused by the dishonest. I do not believe that has been lost or even significantly changed over time. Results can be corrupted, but the experience of learning and broadening one's understanding can still remain authentic and enriching.

I may be naive, or I may be too dismissive of the meaningfulness of our project results, but I will submit that everything is as it was before: there is nothing prevent good faith students of the game from continuing to collaborate here. It might sting a little bit knowing that our treasured projects may be impure, but let's be honest about them: folks always voted strategically, even if not conspiratorially. Bias in the voting pool is inevitable.

What brings people back to the Player Comparisons forum, era after era, and inspires new contributors has always been the quality of discussion, not the accuracy of rankings. I would encourage people to see that two jerks (assuming both are culpable) cannot take that away. All it requires is to continue sharing with curiosity and humility.

People often wonder whether this board's best years are behind it. I get the impulse. We've seen a lot of titans come and go. But I'm on record saying there was no "golden age" at RealGM, and terrific insights and new perspectives are still shared here all the time.

If you decide to ban these two and police this sort of foul play diligently, I understand the impulse and wouldn't object. But I would stop short of twisting yourselves into knots trying to preserve a level of integrity that never was or yearning for a perfect environment to deliver results that ultimately are not the variable in whether people learn from participating here.

[Special_Puppy]

Are OhayaKD and AE officially banned as of now?

[NO-KG-AI]

OhayoKD is one of like 2 people on my ignore list, absolutely an awful poster who made the PC board so much worse it actually kept me off it. He should have been re-banned when he first started, he was super obvious in his return and in his only agenda. I called it out forever ago.

Sadly not the first time one of these great projects was tainted by someone trying to take one of my 3 favorite players ever

[Special_Puppy]

OhayoKD is one of like 2 people on my ignore list, absolutely an awful poster who made the PC board so much worse it actually kept me off it. He should have been re-banned when he first started, he was super obvious in his return and in his only agenda. I called it out forever ago.

Sadly not the first time one of these great projects was tainted by someone trying to take one of my 3 favorite players ever

What was OhayoKD’s previous account out of curiosity

[jjgp111292]

OhayoKD is one of like 2 people on my ignore list, absolutely an awful poster who made the PC board so much worse it actually kept me off it. He should have been re-banned when he first started, he was super obvious in his return and in his only agenda. I called it out forever ago.

Sadly not the first time one of these great projects was tainted by someone trying to take one of my 3 favorite players ever

That's what's so goofy about it all. I specifically made my avi a dig at Bulls/MJ fans for their unreasonable, insecurity-filled arguments against LeBron back in the early 10s and most of my time on other basketball boards is spent pushing back against the MJ mythology. Do you know how much you gotta be wylin' for me to switch sides?

[Tim Lehrbach]

OhayoKD is one of like 2 people on my ignore list, absolutely an awful poster who made the PC board so much worse it actually kept me off it. He should have been re-banned when he first started, he was super obvious in his return and in his only agenda. I called it out forever ago.

Sadly not the first time one of these great projects was tainted by someone trying to take one of my 3 favorite players ever

What was OhayoKD’s previous account out of curiosity

Doc, I'll gently second this inquiry and the call above for a little more information. I understand it is a big lift getting the right message out, and this probably especially irks you as somebody who has shepherded so much of what has made this forum special over the years. So, no rush, and don't take this as skepticism or a challenge. But, the more we all understand exactly what happened and whodunnit, the better we'll take away the right lessons.

[sp6r=underrated]

OhayoKD is one of like 2 people on my ignore list, absolutely an awful poster who made the PC board so much worse it actually kept me off it. He should have been re-banned when he first started, he was super obvious in his return and in his only agenda. I called it out forever ago.

Sadly not the first time one of these great projects was tainted by someone trying to take one of my 3 favorite players ever

What was OhayoKD’s previous account out of curiosity

Special_Kitten

[ScrantonBulls]

OhayoKD is one of like 2 people on my ignore list, absolutely an awful poster who made the PC board so much worse it actually kept me off it. He should have been re-banned when he first started, he was super obvious in his return and in his only agenda. I called it out forever ago.

Sadly not the first time one of these great projects was tainted by someone trying to take one of my 3 favorite players ever

What was OhayoKD’s previous account out of curiosity

He went by the name Howard Mass

[ScrantonBulls]

Just to add onto what others said. AEnigma never pressured me to post in this thread or invited me to the discord. He never PMed me. It as only the other guy. I don't know the evidence the mods have, but I wanted to let that be known.

[ScrantonBulls]

. It's the vehemence of the fans of older players that leads to threads getting 'derailed' by the same discussion over and over.

This is not really an absolute at all.

I have to agree with One here. The vehemence is pretty one sided, and we know who the culprits are. It's basically known that trolling about LeBron is allowed. I know I'm out there defending LeBron often on this, but I keep it in appropriate threads.

[homecourtloss]

not sure what the "evidence" is and who provided this evidence, but the peaks project was providing data and thoughts and information better than what other projects in the past have provided. It's an absolute shame that we're going to stop it because for the most part people are just upset that certain posters were posting rankings that they didn't like. There were a few posters were very vocal about this right from the beginning.

[NO-KG-AI]

You would think when two guys get banned and called out for being previously banned, others that are clearly returners wouldn’t jump into this thread to vouch for them. Is it like a hide in plain sight thing? I feel like I’m losing my mind lol.

[TheGOATRises007]

. It's the vehemence of the fans of older players that leads to threads getting 'derailed' by the same discussion over and over.

This is not really an absolute at all.

I have to agree with One here. The vehemence is pretty one sided, and we know who the culprits are. It's basically known that trolling about LeBron is allowed. I know I'm out there defending LeBron often on this, but I keep it in appropriate threads.

The initial point wasn't about LeBron though.

It was mainly regarding oneandone preferring modern players and his belief that people staunchly defending the older players leading to threads being derailed.

[falcolombardi]

Not gonna lie, is a bit funny to me the first time a different top 1 happens we end the project prematurely with drama involved and whole accusatuons of conspiracy lol

I kinda wonder if anywhere the same drama would have happened if the voting results/ accused new voters were the standard picks for jordan at 1st

[TheGOATRises007]

For projects going forward, I do think there should be a minimum amount of posts made on the forum before being allowed to participate. Something like 1,000 or 500 just to lessen the likelihood of them using AI to make their posts.

The AI responses referenced in this thread by another user now make me think this was commonplace during the past few projects on here.

On a general note, I do think this board has become way more hostile lately.

I also blame myself for that when engaging with posters when our viewpoints are so vastly different.

[TheGOATRises007]

Not gonna lie, is a bit funny to me the first time a different top 1 happens we end the project prematurely with drama involved and whole accusatuons of conspiracy lol

I kinda wonder if anywhere the same drama would have happened if the voting results/ accused new voters were the standard picks for jordan at 1st

Not as funny as the AI responses referenced by another user.

Also, a different top 1 happened during the general top 100 list in 2020 and the project went on normally.

[Special_Puppy]

not sure what the "evidence" is and who provided this evidence, but the peaks project was providing data and thoughts and information better than what other projects in the past have provided. It's an absolute shame that we're going to stop it because for the most part people are just upset that certain posters were posting rankings that they didn't like. There were a few posters were very vocal about this right from the beginning.

If what Doc is saying is true (that people were coordinating to try to reboot old PC projects to try to skew the results, that one poster had several socket puppets, that the project runner knew about this or was even an active participant) then that goes well beyond stopping a project because you didn’t get the ranking you wanted